What tier is animal companion?

[MukkTB]

That class feature alone, what tier is it? I've seen some classes that get a version of it, PF Cavalier, PF Samurai, ranked at tier 5. It seems a bit of a lowball. Is that right?

[eggynack]

Tier 5 sounds about right. It tends to be reasonably good at meleeing, probably about as well as a monk most of the time. I don't know what the animal companion can do that'd get it up to tier 4. They usually do one thing, and do it rather well. They get some bonus points, because they basically get free resurrection all the time, but they're probably worse at the actual fighting stuff than a melee guy that's really pushing his resources around optimally.

[Fouredged Sword]

They melee, and they melee well. That puts them right in Tier 4. They do their job and nothing else.

[eggynack]

They can only be tier 4 if they can melee better than a fighter at most levels. I don't think they can, so tier 5 seems pretty obvious. They're probably better at level one, but I'm not sure at other levels.

[AuraTwilight]

They can only be tier 4 if they can melee better than a fighter at most levels.

...That's not what Tiers mean.

[Silva Stormrage]

Low tier five. Probably about on par with monk. Now it might be a bit stronger if it can switch out what animal it is in 24 hours as that would up versatility a lot.

But also note, it has horrible skills, not the best hit points or feat selection as it doesn't have as many HD as a normal class. It has some weaknesses.

[CyberThread]

I don't know about PF, but will say 3.5 version is this....


Melee....scout...stealth...some animals make good anti invisible or stealthy things to. Access to a unique list of spell buffs, that a normal player could not do, that some are very powerful.


A level 20 dog,will just be as unnoticed by players or villains as a level 1 dog.


So I want to say, they make a mid tier 4.

[eggynack]

...That's not what Tiers mean.
I know what the tier system means. Generally, a given animal companion isn't going to have much utility beyond that of a fighter, and they're not going to have as much combat utility as a fighter. Fighting is the prime metric of evaluation here, and if the fighter's fighting capability isn't considered great enough to exceed, "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well," then I don't think that the animal companion does either. The real advantage of an animal companion is that you can presumably switch yourself out for other animal companions within 24 hours. That might push things to tier 4, though I'm not really seeing it. I'm not sure how wealth by level factors into all of this. Does the animal companion get as much as a regular character, or the amount that would be reasonably assigned to an animal companion? People usually assign the AC tier 5 status on the basis of limited WBL, so more might change things.

[Rubik]

Remember, depending on the animal, you can get some really nice abilities out of them. Tyrannosauruses are great at grappling and swallowing whole, which is better than an optimized fighter can do at it, even with WBL. A dire bat can fly, has blindsight, and has good general combat stats. A dire wolf is quite good at tripping, and is a high-Str, Large quadruped, so it makes a better packmule than a packmule does (or a fighter, which is the fighter's only real use at higher levels). Bears are...well, bears, and a fleshraker is basically the Death Star of animal companions.

And given that they come with a free druid to buff them...

I'd say either tier 4 or tier 5, depending on the exact animal you're using.

[eggynack]

Remember, depending on the animal, you can get some really nice abilities out of them. Tyrannosauruses are great at grappling and swallowing whole, which is better than an optimized fighter can do at it, even with WBL. A dire bat can fly, has blindsight, and has good general combat stats. A dire wolf is quite good at tripping, and is a high-Str, Large quadruped, so it makes a better packmule than a packmule does (or a fighter, which is the fighter's only real use at higher levels). Bears are...well, bears, and a fleshraker is basically the Death Star of animal companions.

And given that they come with a free druid to buff them...

I'd say either tier 4 or tier 5, depending on the exact animal you're using.
Yeah, being able to switch out to different forms given notice seems nice. Still, I don't know if it's equal to just having wealth by level, which I'm not entirely sure they have. Like, the ability to fly is really sweet, but the fighter can pick that up with an item, and not sacrifice his fighting ability to do it. I'm also not sure that we should take the free druid into account. I might be able to be convinced, but I don't think that's a part of their tier evaluation. I mean, if you have a free druid, you're obviously tier one.

Edit: Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're talking about minimal WBL, as per the OP. The evaluation of the AC is as the class feature, and so he's only getting as many items as he'd get normally. This might open the animal companion to a bit of buffing, though it should probably be minimal, under the assumption that the druid has other things to do with his time.

[Rubik]

Yeah, being able to switch out to different forms given notice seems nice. Still, I don't know if it's equal to just having wealth by level, which I'm not entirely sure they have. Like, the ability to fly is really sweet, but the fighter can pick that up with an item, and not sacrifice his fighting ability to do it. I'm also not sure that we should take the free druid into account. I might be able to be convinced, but I don't think that's a part of their tier evaluation. I mean, if you have a free druid, you're obviously tier one.I don't mean to say that a WBL-less animal companion is worth a high level fighter with full WBL, but it's not like druids need much WBL, and so they can give a good portion of it to their companions. But certain animals are better at performing certain jobs than the fighter, WBL notwithstanding, such as a T-Rex's ability to grapple better than any fighter. Adding even half-WBL to it just makes the comparison entirely unfair.

Remember, it's difficult to do a great many things without magic, such as burrowing (which can be done by several animals) and flying (which other animals can do) and grappling (which fighters really can't do at all at later levels, given size differences between them and things like dragons). And anything the fighter can get through WBL, the animal can get from its druid's WBL, or from the druid itself. Strip the WBL from the fighter AND the animal, and an equal-leveled T-Rex will likely win any given fight.

[Coidzor]

Tier 5 is usually what it's billed as for a hypothetical class with nothing but the animal companion (or a druid with only animal companion)... So the animal companion itself , as opposed to attached to another creature, is either Tier 5 or Tier 6, I'd imagine.

[Spuddles]

An Animal Companion has a tier of 6 or 7. Int 2 is kind of a bummer.

[eggynack]

I don't mean to say that a WBL-less animal companion is worth a high level fighter with full WBL, but it's not like druids need much WBL, and so they can give a good portion of it to their companions.

Well, the animal companion certainly isn't sporting full wealth by level, because druids like items. They certainly don't need them as much as some, but I'm probably not even beginning to really kit out the AC until high level. The question isn't whether they can give the money to their animal companions. The question is whether they would, and I think that the answer is no. They might get something, but certainly not nearly as much as the fighter gets, and that seems highly relevant.

[Rubik]

An Animal Companion has a tier of 6 or 7. Int 2 is kind of a bummer.It is capable of being directed by its druid. I'd say we should kill every druid class feature but the animal companion to help the situation. No casting, no wildshape. Just the druid and his animal companion, and the summons, bonding, and control thereof. It's not like the AC will ever really be encountered in a druidless vacuum.

I'd say it would be a fairly decent comparison, especially since feat retraining is perfectly viable for AC's to optimize and specialize them somewhat.

[edit]
Well, the animal companion certainly isn't sporting full wealth by level, because druids like items. They certainly don't need them as much as some, but I'm probably not even beginning to really kit out the AC until high level. The question isn't whether they can give the money to their animal companions. The question is whether they would, and I think that the answer is no. They might get something, but certainly not nearly as much as the fighter gets, and that seems highly relevant.But all that most AC's need to perform the fighter's job are some decent armor (cheap, with MIC armor crystals), a flight item (assuming the druid isn't using buffs), and perhaps some weapon augmentations to their natural weapons, which are easy enough (helped along with MIC weapon crystals). And they really aren't that expensive, overall.

[Barsoom]

I would have to bill the animal companion class feature on its own as T4


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise

I have seen animal companions that were better in melee than the party fighter (or quasi-fighter class). And that was before the Druid bothered to buff them.

Plus, the animal companion is easily replaced, and while it's often useless in non-melee challenges, "often useless" does not mean "always useless" - sometimes they make good scouts or flying mounts. And it can always match the environment (We're in a jungle? here's a lion. A maritime adventure? I'll get a huge shark).

[ericgrau]

That wouldn't be better than optimized melee though. That only shows one person knew what he was doing more than the other.

[sleepyphoenixx]

With the right feats i'd put it at a solid T4. Core only with standard feats would be T5.
Sure, it's not better than a optimized Fighter. It's not all that much worse, either, and you still get the benefit of more actions even if you're just a commoner with AC.

[Gwendol]

Tier 5, typically. Not having any intelligence to speak of is hurting them as they need direction to function well.

[erikun]

There is a difference between the Tier of the animal companion itself and the animal companion class feature. After all, one is simply a creature with some moderate progression tables: low Tier 5 or Tier 6, even ignoring the lack of intelligence. On the other hand, the class feature basically gives you double the actions to do in a round, even if those extra actions are typically going to be limited to combat. Tier 5 that can be optimized into a few Tier 4 builds sounds appropriate, as that is exactly what the Fighter can do.

[CTrees]

They can fight quite well, and some have some stealthiness or other tricks like alternate transportation or detection modes. I would say they vary between Tier 4 and Tier 6, depending upon the specific animal companion. Intelligence 2 is the biggest limiting factor, but as even Tier 4 can be achieved by "does one thing well, but falters outside their area of expertise," I'd say that the best animals qualify.

Vermin companions, however (Pathfinder has many, like giant spiders) would be solidly in the "unplayable" level, given their lack of an Intelligence score.

[Barsoom]

They can fight quite well, and some have some stealthiness or other tricks like alternate transportation or detection modes. I would say they vary between Tier 4 and Tier 6, depending upon the specific animal companion. Intelligence 2 is the biggest limiting factor, but as even Tier 4 can be achieved by "does one thing well, but falters outside their area of expertise," I'd say that the best animals qualify.

Vermin companions, however (Pathfinder has many, like giant spiders) would be solidly in the "unplayable" level, given their lack of an Intelligence score.

For reference, the debate is not about the tier of the animal companion itself, but the tier of an animal companion as a class feature.

[Coidzor]

That class feature alone, what tier is it? I've seen some classes that get a version of it, PF Cavalier, PF Samurai, ranked at tier 5. It seems a bit of a lowball. Is that right?

Part of that is because 1. PF nerfed animal companion when they standardized it as far as I've been able to gather and 2. Pathfinder's Cavalier, and by extension, Samurai both have an extremely limited selection of animal companions which negates a lot of the advantages of the class feature in terms of versatility and competency.

[geekintheground]

isnt some of the reason certain classes are in certain tiers because of versatility? having a new animal every other day (use it day 1 and at the end lose it, spend day 2 meditating, then use another one day 3) seems pretty versatile to me. not to mention the different roles each animal can play. but im still getting used to the tier system so i could be way off :smalleek:

[Gavinfoxx]

What tier would a dragonhawk be, at the level you can get it? I love those things!

[eggynack]

isnt some of the reason certain classes are in certain tiers because of versatility? having a new animal every other day (use it day 1 and at the end lose it, spend day 2 meditating, then use another one day 3) seems pretty versatile to me. not to mention the different roles each animal can play. but im still getting used to the tier system so i could be way off :smalleek:
You're not too far off, and it's a factor I mentioned, but it's a factor that's a little limited in utility. There isn't such a high variety of animal companions that you're going to gain much advantage by switching them out based on the kind of knowledge that will be useful within two days. Like, if you're going on a sea voyage, you might switch out for an aquatic animal, and if you're going to be fighting dragons, you might want something with flight. However, by and large, you're going to stick with the same animal companion for just about everything you'll face, at least at any given level. There's certainly some versatility, and it's nice to have, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a raise in tier. In particular, switching off to a specialized form will often vastly reduce your combat ability, which can leave you unable to actually accomplish anything when you reach the place you're suddenly able to reach. Being able to become something with a burrow speed is nice for wild shape, but if you do that as an animal companion, you're stuck with that decision for a couple of days.

[Gwendol]

Especially true if you spend your treasures on equipping your AC.

[Gnaeus]

For reference, the debate is not about the tier of the animal companion itself, but the tier of an animal companion as a class feature.

A class feature does not really get a tier. For me, it would vary depending on what base you put it on.

A commoner with animal companion may have trouble. Bad HP, terrible starting feats, bad skills and saves. Any enemy who realized what they were fighting could just kill the master pretty easily. I will say high T5.

Swap that to a druid base (without other class features) and I would say T4. Better HP. Better saves. 4 skill points/level give him options for contributing. Since Handle Animal is a class skill, and the only meaningful class feature, this is a Cha based SAD class, so he could for example spend those 3 other skill points on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD without losing anything, and be a good party face, with intimidate available as a go to debuff, with UMD to help provide actions in combat. Even if all master does is chuck alchemist fire and tanglefoot bags, that is still a significant contribution to the pet's combat ability. With all simple weapons, medium BaB and HD, armor and 2 good saves, the Master is almost as good as a warrior by just trying to hit things.

Since the AC does not need its masters feats, the master is free to spend all of his feats trying to find something to contribute, whether that means combat feats, or team support feats like Draconic Aura, or utility feats. Bonded Companion is the only "must take" feat, whether that means that the master can pick a better companion at level 4 with no loss of pet features, or if it only means that he can take a 3 level dip in some other class without reducing his master class features at all.