An Amulet of Brilliant Energy Mighty Fists?

[Baroncognito]

Would someone wearing an Amulet of Brilliant Energy Mighty Fists be able to walk through walls?

[Emperor Tippy]

Would someone wearing an Amulet of Brilliant Energy Mighty Fists be able to walk through walls?

If they are a monk, yes. Otherwise no. Monk specifically calls out that its whole body is a weapon for Unarmed strikes. Regular Unarmed strikes aren't so called out.

You also have to be naked, and the Amulet couldn't technically come with you (although your DM might rule that it counts as the weapon as well).

[Baroncognito]

If they are a monk, yes. Otherwise no. Monk specifically calls out that its whole body is a weapon for Unarmed strikes. Regular Unarmed strikes aren't so called out.

You also have to be naked, and the Amulet couldn't technically come with you (although your DM might rule that it counts as the weapon as well).

When is a monk not naked anyway? (or is that just a house-rule?)

[Prime32]

You also have to be naked, and the Amulet couldn't technically come with you (although your DM might rule that it counts as the weapon as well).No, you see...

Make your clothing out of weapons. Make the amulet bulky enough to bludgeon people with. Enchant everything as brilliant energy.

It's not comfortable to sit down in, but it works. :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

I don't know about the brilliant energy part, but I have a TO build that casts a Ghostform spell followed by Chain Spell'd Sequester on all of his equipment, so it's all invisible. He has ghost touch on his necklace of natural weapons so he counts as corporeal whenever he wants, but his clothing is effectively not there unless he wants it to be.

Booyah. Take that, VoP. I'm nekkid.





Oh, and ghost touch is better than brilliant energy, as the former ignores natural armor and still affects undead and constructs, and doesn't allow you to fall into the center of the planet, and all for +1 rather than +4.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, and ghost touch is better than brilliant energy, as the former ignores natural armor and still affects undead and constructs, and doesn't allow you to fall into the center of the planet, and all for +1 rather than +4.

Ok, so this has become a Tippy discussion, which means I should probably not be surprised about this.. but what tortuous process of RAW-mangling leads you to the bolded conclusion?

[Rubik]

Ok, so this has become a Tippy discussion, which means I should probably not be surprised about this.. but what tortuous process of RAW-mangling leads you to the bolded conclusion?The weapon counts as corporeal or incorporeal whenever it would suit the wielder for the best result. Since for a monk that applies to his entire body, his entire body counts as incorporeal whenever it would suit him. And under the heading for incorporeality, it says that incorporeal things ignore armor, shields, and natural armor, meaning it's a touch attack. It also says nothing about ignoring the flesh of creatures, living, nonliving, or undead. Ergo, you can punch things as incorporeal touch attacks, move through walls, and generally be awesome.

[Karnith]

The weapon counts as corporeal or incorporeal whenever it would suit the wielder for the best result.
I think that you missed the word "essentially" in that sentence of the item description; it is a summary of its effects rather than a detailed description of how the item works, which immediately precedes that line. A ghost touch weapon does not actually become incorporeal or corporeal depending on what is more beneficial to the user.

[Rubik]

I think that you missed the word "essentially" in that sentence of the item description; it is a summary of its effects rather than a detailed description of how the item works, which immediately precedes that line.And being "essentially" incorporeal means ignoring pesky things like armor, shields, and natural armor.

[Karnith]

And being "essentially" incorporeal means ignoring pesky things like armor, shields, and natural armor.
No, the item description is quite clear as to what being "essentially" incorporeal means, and it does not include ignoring armor/natural armor bonuses.

[Rubik]

No, the item description is quite clear as to what being "essentially" incorporeal means, and it does not include ignoring armor/natural armor bonuses.Wouldn't incorporeal touch attacks be one of the results of counting as incorporeal when it best suits the wielder?

[tyckspoon]

And being "essentially" incorporeal means ignoring pesky things like armor, shields, and natural armor.

Being 'essentially' incorporeal would then also include you being unable to pick it up, as you are not yourself an incorporeal creature. It must then be simultaneously incorporeal and not, in which case why does that work to your benefit to allow you to wield the weapon, but also allow it to ignore other creatures solid objects? You're invoking a pretty big can o' worms in that interpretation..

The more sensible way to deal with Ghost Touch, IMO, is to say that the weapon is completely corporeal. It just happens to *also* be solid to incorporeal creatures as well, just like Force effects are.

[Kornaki]

The point is that the sentence "essentially it acts as incorporeal or corporeal as best suits the wielder's needs" isn't adding new abilities beyond what else is mentioned in the description, it's just clarifying that it can be used to strike incorporeal creatures or corporeal creatures, without a penalty to either.

It's like if a description of a monk said "the monk is essentially the unarmed master of DnD", and then arguing by RAW a monk is better than an unarmed swordsage

[Rubik]

Being 'essentially' incorporeal would then also include you being unable to pick it up, as you are not yourself an incorporeal creature. It must then be simultaneously incorporeal and not, in which case why does that work to your benefit to allow you to wield the weapon, but also allow it to ignore other creatures solid objects? You're invoking a pretty big can o' worms in that interpretation..

The more sensible way to deal with Ghost Touch, IMO, is to say that the weapon is completely corporeal. It just happens to *also* be solid to incorporeal creatures as well, just like Force effects are.Remember, incorporeal things do not ignore the flesh (or wood, or steel, or whatever) of creatures, and thus could be picked up by corporeal creatures.

[Karnith]

Wouldn't incorporeal touch attacks be one of the results of counting as incorporeal when it best suits the wielder?
No, because the item description clearly spells out what a ghost touch weapon does.

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
You cannot just ignore the word "essentially" in the last sentence and then use that one sentence to justify the item having properties well beyond those that are explicitly in the item description.

[Kane0]

I would call it an amulet of Mighty Brilliant Fists, just sayin'.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Remember, incorporeal things do not ignore the flesh (or wood, or steel, or whatever) of creatures, and thus could be picked up by corporeal creatures.

Source?

Most incorporeal touch attacks do damage because they -are- the creature's natural weapon and have a damage value listed for them specifically. If that weren't the case, the general rule that incorporeal things cannot physically interact with corporeal things would make it impossible for incorporeal creatures to harm corporeal creatures at all without utilizing some targetted special ability.

[Rubik]

Source?

Most incorporeal touch attacks do damage because they -are- the creature's natural weapon and have a damage value listed for them specifically. If that weren't the case, the general rule that incorporeal things cannot physically interact with corporeal things would make it impossible for incorporeal creatures to harm corporeal creatures at all without utilizing some targetted special ability.Flesh (and its equivalent) that isn't natural armor is not listed as something that incorporeal things can ignore under the incorporeality trait. It mentions that incorporeal things can coexist within objects, but it never mentions other creatures in that sense, other than their natural armor, and the fact that they can't be tripped, grappled, or otherwise affected by nonmagical attack forms.

www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

[Ravens_cry]

If you could walk through walls by this method, you should, unless you had a method of fly up, fall through the ground toward the planet's core.
Happy trails, bub!

[olentu]

Anyway, would someone mind pointing out the section of the rules saying that a monk's entire body counts as an unarmed strike. Considering how many people know about this bit of rules one would think it should be very obvious, but for some reason I have never managed to notice it.

[TuggyNE]

Flesh (and its equivalent) that isn't natural armor is not listed as something that incorporeal things can ignore under the incorporeality trait. It mentions that incorporeal things can coexist within objects, but it never mentions other creatures in that sense, other than their natural armor, and the fact that they can't be tripped, grappled, or otherwise affected by nonmagical attack forms.

The subtype doesn't give you the whole story; Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality), for reasons I do not fully understand, has a somewhat different entry.
Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.

Note something that is only briefly mentioned (and mostly assumed): the incorporeal touch attacks belong to the creature itself, not objects (including weapons) that might be incorporeal. An example of this is provided in the Ghost entry, under Ghostly Equipment:
When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

[Karnith]

The subtype doesn't give you the whole story; Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality), for reasons I do not fully understand, has a somewhat different entry.
In addition to what Tuggyne said, the Incorporeal Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) description makes it clear that incorporeal creatures "cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."

EDIT:
Anyway, would someone mind pointing out the section of the rules saying that a monk's entire body counts as an unarmed strike.The main thing is that an unarmed strike is defined as any attack made without a weapon in hand (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U), meaning that any attack with your body is an unarmed attack. Since any attack made with your body is an unarmed strike (whether it's with your fist, feet, head, belly fat, or beard), an enchantment that affects your unarmed strike must naturally affect your entire body for it to apply to your unarmed strike.

Unless you're a Kensai and have to use their silly ability, of course.

[Diarmuid]

Taking this discussion back to its roots, where is the precedence for being able to add non-enhancement bonii to the Amulet of Mighty Fists?

I realise it's a simple logical deduction but I was curious if it was actually listed anywhere like the MIC lists adding stat bonii/deflection/etc to various item slots.

[Rubik]

Taking this discussion back to its roots, where is the precedence for being able to add non-enhancement bonii to the Amulet of Mighty Fists?

I realise it's a simple logical deduction but I was curious if it was actually listed anywhere like the MIC lists adding stat bonii/deflection/etc to various item slots.You can't use it on the amulet of mighty fists; that's enhancement bonuses only unless the DM houserules otherwise.

What you use is the necklace of natural weapons (from Savage Species). It is much cheaper for any build with fewer than three natural attacks (and works on par with three) and explicitly allows weapon special abilities. You can also use special abilities on gauntlets (which are categorized as unarmed strikes, which would then scale with increased unarmed strike damage), the ward cestus (which is basically a leather gauntlet), the body of the monk itself (since it counts as a manufactured weapon for effects that affect them, such as enhancing via magic), the bracers of striking (which can be enhanced like a double weapon, and comes from Magic of Faerun), and the warforged battlefist (from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which boosts your unarmed strike damage and can be enhanced like any normal weapon). Note that you can add the necklace of natural weapons abilities to chronocharms (from MIC), and numerous of the above items stack (aside from enhancement bonuses), and can use weapon crystals (also from MIC) on your unarmed strikes if you're a monk.

Unarmed strikes can be extremely powerful if you put lots of +1 and +2 abilities on them from different sources, and for much cheaper than a longsword or nunchucks or whatever. In my experience, it is, by far, the best thing about a monk.

[Emperor Tippy]

the body of the monk itself (since it counts as a manufactured weapon for effects that affect them, such as enhancing via magic)
Nope, you would have to make the Monk's body masterwork for that to work.

[Rubik]

Nope, you would have to make the Monk's body masterwork for that to work.Which is doable upon character creation for 300 gp. Technically it's also doable with warforged, I think, since they can be enhanced even without it. However, my warforged monk build in your thread went ahead and spent the 300 gp anyway, just to be safe.

[Beelzebub1111]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon

Look at the part that PRECEDES the "Essentially" line

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

That is the limits of the weapon ability. End of discussion.


As far as the brilliant energy fists goes...depends on your DM. If he's nice, he'll just say no. If he's cruel, when you put them on and activate them, you fall through the floor to the center of the earth.

[Jeraa]

Taking this discussion back to its roots, where is the precedence for being able to add non-enhancement bonii to the Amulet of Mighty Fists?

I realise it's a simple logical deduction but I was curious if it was actually listed anywhere like the MIC lists adding stat bonii/deflection/etc to various item slots.

As far as I know, it doesn't exist in 3.X D&D. However, the Pathfinder version of the amulet can have the special, non-enhancement abilities added to it.


Would someone wearing an Amulet of Brilliant Energy Mighty Fists be able to walk through walls?

Not really, no. The force of gravity would pull the character down through the ground to the center of the earth, where he dies from the intense heat and pressure. Assuming he didn't already die from suffocation on the way down.

[Curmudgeon]

If they are a monk, yes. Otherwise no. Monk specifically calls out that its whole body is a weapon for Unarmed strikes. Regular Unarmed strikes aren't so called out.
That's not the case. From the Monk class description:
A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. From page 121 of Player's Handbook (the Equipment chapter):
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Regular unarmed strikes are called out as having the same flexibility to use any striking surface of your body. This is not a Monk-specific feature.

[olentu]

EDIT:The main thing is that an unarmed strike is defined as any attack made without a weapon in hand (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U), meaning that any attack with your body is an unarmed attack. Since any attack made with your body is an unarmed strike (whether it's with your fist, feet, head, belly fat, or beard), an enchantment that affects your unarmed strike must naturally affect your entire body for it to apply to your unarmed strike.

Unless you're a Kensai and have to use their silly ability, of course.

Yes yes it is an attack made without weapon in hand. An attack is an action that is being performed. That would seem to mean that the, not a physical object, action of the attack is the unarmed strike leaving body parts out. It could be possible to argue that, for example, a foot is actually a kick (much like a sword is actually a swing, thrust, or other verb) but even taking that interpretation (and without ruling that the character's body parts no longer exist once the action that they are ceases) it would apply only during the attack and not at any other time. Plus this applies to any character and not just monks for which a distinction was supposed to exist.