Magus/Divine Class/Prestige...maybe??? Yeah I need help

[Blind_Prophet]

So uh yeah VERY long backstory short: A pair of Duelists are Twins who inherited 2 sentient weapons (currently a Rhoka and a Rapier but willing to change) from their father along with various other inheritance when he died in his Heroly duty (currently is written a a lich and his undead army but is subject to change)...dear old Dad was a Magus and taught his Twin Son and Daughter to do the same.

The "Son" (me) swore to master the use of the Rhoka so he could avenge his father's death. He was fairly simple to create as he was just a Magus with the Kensai & Bladebound Archetypes.

The daughter on the other hand turned to religion the exact reason why is either to use the power of the gods to smite the ones who killed her father, to resurrect him or to accept his death and believe he's in a better place it's not my character so it's all depends on how the story flows. I can't really find a way to make this work beyond thinking "Being able to cast a healing spell or buff through your weapon when you attack is pretty cool"

AS for the sentient weapons their only wish is to be used in combat, not that they have blood lust they just love the thrill of combat so even a duel or training session would keep them satisfied in most cases...the plan is to have them be either Chaotic Good or Neutral Good.

So yeah this is my dilemma I need to make a Character that has some sort of divine class in it and has at least 6 Magus Lvls w/ Bladebound Archetype (Lvl 6 is required to channel non-Magus spells using spell combat/strike) preferably more and can take on the healer role since that what my friend wants to play.

Any ideas?

No? Feel free to suggest alternative ideas that suit the backstory and give my friend something to do other than healing w/o not healing like the Magus' Spell strike/combat does.

[Waker]

The choice of alignment takes Paladin off the table. You could go with Inquisitor, they have a decent selection of skills and some spells. The Judgements are rather handy in combat.

[grarrrg]

So yeah this is my dilemma I need to make a Character that has some sort of divine class in it and has at least 1 Magus Lvl w/ Bladebound Archetype (feel free to suggest something entirely different that suits the back story if you can't help with this) preferably more and can take on the healer role since that what my friend wants to play.

Umm...Bladebound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) doesn't get their bound-blade until 3rd level.

Lets go with the "suggest something entirely different that suits"
Ancestor Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/ancestor) Oracle

It has "dead family" vibes in the Ancestor.
It's the 3rd (ish) most "melee" of the mysteries.
The Oracle automatically gets ALL Cure spells on their list (or all Inflict, but...).

[Blind_Prophet]

Oh sorry I actually meant at least lvl 6 in Magus since the main reason for going Magus mechanically is to keep my friend from having to be a walking heal battery and nothing else with the ability to cast cure spells whilst being able to attack and channel a touch spell through her weapon goes a long way towards this requires the "Broad Study" Magus ability which requires at least 6 Levels of Magus.

As for Oracle that's a good idea (especially the ancestor bit) but the problem with Oracle is the same as Cleric or Druid...MAD...with a Divine/Magus Melee Mix that melee's requires Int, Cha or Wis and Str or Dex as main stats. My hope is to find a combo that reduces that requirement...Wis for to-hit and damage, a divine class that uses Int, Dex or Str somehow for spellcasting...something like that.

Inquisitor I actually really as well if only that it portrays the zealous warrior type fitting the "unleashes divine wrath on her fathers enemies" kind of thing. Also despite still having the MAD problem mentioned above at least having a decent Int and Wis will make good use of their Monster Lore skill

Oh and our group house-ruled out "All Paladins must be Lawful Good" a long time ago they just have to be the same alignment as their God.Although we rarely allow Evil character in our games.

One possibility I can thin of is a Monk2+/Magus 6-7/InquisitorX...possibly w/ Mystic TheurgeX wielding a Monk weapons (Kama, Knuckle Axe, Q-Staff,etc.) this would allow me to eliminate the need for Str or Dex especially since Monks allow for all kinds of things to be switched to Wisdom and Inquisitor has a few things that use both Int and Wisdom...actually now that I'm looking int Monk weapons Staff Magus allows you to wield q-staves one handed so that might yield some interesting stuff...but I'm not really sure how well that will all come together so I'm hoping others have tried something like this before.

Oh but Grarrg I do need to thank you for your guide to dipping it's a great help when a build concept brings me a few levels short of 20 and I need to pepper something in there.

[Blind_Prophet]

Actually Sidebar on the monks weapons a Bladed Cestus would be really cool and fit the back story of being handed down form another Magus make more sense since he would have needed a free hand as well he'd have the Rhoka in one hand and a mailed fist with blades on the other leaving it free and I actually like the idea that the daughter joined a monastery to try to find inner piece before failing and becoming a raging inquisitor.

http://www.play.net/images/weapons/troll_claw.jpg
http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/103/abe465cb59284093810e60e87f96a3ad/l.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/130/6/c/wind_claw_by_raverunner-d64r6dr.jpg

[Beowulf DW]

Well, personally, I'd say to simply put some ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and worship whatever god you want. Perhaps a god of magic? Being a part of the "church" of a god doesn't necessarily mean having levels in a divine-powered class. For example, Dawnflower Fighters and Dawnflower Bards are often counted as agents of Sarenrae, even though they're not divine casters. Paizo really seems to like abilities that scale, meaning that you'll usually get more out of simply going through levels 1-20 with the same class, unless you can find a prestige class with abilities that scale with other classes to tie your multiclassing together. There are quite a few prestige classes in Pathfinder, most of which seem to work best in the official setting, so there may be something to tie a magus to a divine caster in a neat little package. Even so, I recommend just going magus, and then roleplaying a particularly religious magus. Remember, it takes more than class abilities to define a character.

[Blind_Prophet]

Its more about mixing the ability to channel spells through your melee attack with healing spells. As opposed to just going "I heal X ally" every turn. It would be nice to hear of another class that does something similar. Also the sentient weapon bit is very important to the Twin Duelists bit...we've actually debating making it so both weapons are inhabited by the same being somehow....wouldn't change anything mechanically beyond allowing the Twins to speak telepathically through their weapons.

The annoying part is searching the webs reveals lots of people talking about Magus/Divine builds but never actually posting any builds or build suggestions just talking about how awesome it is.

Sidenote: Looking through Inquisitor Archetypes Vampire Hunter seems very good backstorywise...maybe with a slight rename...Hunter of the Dead or something...mechnically seems like a bit of a wash but I'd say its worth it unless it interferes with something awesome in another archetype.

Here's the two builds I have in my head right now...the inquisitor levels are not quite determined as I may or may not take some Mystic Theurge level in place of it on either build ideas.u j;

Inquisitor 11-12 "Vampire Hunter"/Magus6-7 "Staff Magus/Bladebound"/Monk2 "Sensei" Int/Wis Focus Weapon: Bladed Q-Staff

Inquisitor 11-12 "Vampire Hunter"/Magus6 "Bladebound/Hexcrafter"/Monk2 "Sensei" Int/Wis Focus Weapon: Claw Cestus...hex crafter could use some reflavouring for it's Hex/curse abilities (since it seems counter to an inquisitor)...maybe Holy Damnation or something

[grarrrg]

Short reply:
Combining 6 levels of Magus with (healer) is a VERY poor combination, that I just don't see working very well at all.
Either allow Leadership > Cohorts (the Cohort is the healer), add a healing NPC, or drop the Magus requirement.
(or house-rule Broad Study in at a lower level)


Oh sorry I actually meant at least lvl 6 in Magus... "Broad Study" Magus ability which requires at least 6 Levels of Magus.

Broad Study is one of those abilities that SEEMS really awesome, but trying to actually make use of usually winds up weakening your character more than helping.
It brings about the same problems that more "Theurge"-ish builds have.
(and like most theurge-ish builds, it goes from "crud" to "freaking awesome!" if you are using Gestalt rules).
Unless you _must_ dip another class for access to a "must have" spell, you are better off just staying Magus (or PrC-ing).


My hope is to find a combo that reduces that requirement...Wis for to-hit and damage

There are 3 ways to get WIS-to-hit.
Sensei Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) level 2 (which gives up a LOT of the "typical Monk-ness"), and the WIS only works for Monk weapons.

Zen Archer Monk 3 (must use a Bow, so that ain't happening with Magus).

Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat, which requires Channel Smite feat (which requires Channeling), and you only get WIS-to-hit with "your deity's chosen weapon". So unless you are using Homebrew deities, your options are restricted-ish.

(there's also the Guided Weapon property, which isn't fully Pathfinder, you're on your own there, I don't touch those discussions).


a divine class that uses Int, Dex or Str somehow for spellcasting...something like that.

Divine use WIS or CHA.
Arcane can use INT, WIS, or CHA.
Nothing uses STR or DEX for casting.
An Orc-only archetype of Witch can use CON.


One possibility I can thin of is a Monk2+/Magus 6-7/InquisitorX...possibly w/ Mystic TheurgeX

No on the Mystic Theurge, _especially_ with the Monk levels.
You'd enter it really late.
Wouldn't get the full benefit, as you're using weaker 'max 6 spells' classes.
AND ou'd take a hit to both HD and Bab, versus staying in either Magus or Inquisitor.
VERY not worth it. Stick with Magus or Inquisitor.


Oh but Grarrg I do need to thank you for your guide to dipping it's a great help when a build concept brings me a few levels short of 20 and I need to pepper something in there.

That's what it's there for. :smallwink: (amongst other things :smallbiggrin: )

[Blind_Prophet]

oops double post

[Blind_Prophet]

Hmmm....I'm sure I could convince the DM to let her take Broad Study at Lvl 3 Magus (despite bladebound)...so how about this?

Divine Class 15/Magus3 "Bladebound"/Monk2 "Sensei" Int/Wis Focus Weapon: Claw Cestus

Possible Divine Classes? Inquisitor "Vampire Hunter", Cleric "???" or Oracle "???"

[Beowulf DW]

There are 3 ways to get WIS-to-hit.

Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat, which requires Channel Smite feat (which requires Channeling), and you only get WIS-to-hit with "your deity's chosen weapon". So unless you are using Homebrew deities, your options are restricted-ish.


Ragathiel (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ragathiel) is lawful good and allows the use of bastard swords, which can be used as one-handed slashing weapons when you have proficiency in them, which of course works for the Black blade requirements. Maybe combine with Crusader's Flurry for extra shenanigans.

[Blind_Prophet]

Ragathiel (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ragathiel) is lawful good and allows the use of bastard swords, which can be used as one-handed slashing weapons when you have proficiency in them, which of course works for the Black blade requirements. Maybe combine with Crusader's Flurry for extra shenanigans.

Hmmm...that would allow me to either entirely drop the Monk levels or at least only have to take 1 lvl. Let's see what we have available now let's see which gods line up the best weapon and lorewise (auto-skipping evil deities).

Iomedae - LG Goddess of Paladins/Anti-Undead - Long Sword

Saranrae - NG Goddess of Good/Sun/Redemption - Scimitar

Caiden - CG God of Debauchery, Adventure, Freedom & Loot - Rapier

Calistria - CN Goddess of Elves and Revenge - Whip

Ragathiel - LG God of Vengeance and Duty - Bastard Sword

Besmara - CN Goddess of Pirates - Rapier

Out of these I'd say Saranrae fits best...the Scimitar is a good weapon for the Bladebound Magus, she's Neutral Good like the Character and weapon are planned to be, she's very anti-undead which suits the character even more probably take Sun and Glory Domains for that purpose assuming I go with Cleric as the Divine Class

So at this point it's most likely to be Cleric17/Magus3"Bladebound"...maybe also take Spire Defender for CE and Dodge or Kensai for Canny Defense (essentially +3 AC) and Weapon Focus. Main Stats Dex/Wis avoid using Magus Spells that have a DC (ie. Buff and utility spells)...tempted to drop 1 cleric level for a Monk level to get Wis to AC...not sure.

Note: The DM has accepted the removal of the Lvl 6 requirement for Broad Study Magus Arcana, also he has allowed the Black Blade to continue to grow based on character level instead of Magus level.

[Beowulf DW]

Blind_Prophet, perhaps you should take a look at this: Celestial Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/knight-of-ozem). Flavor wise, it seems like exactly what you're looking for. Your friend could take a level or three in Crusader Cleric of Iomedae for the shield and armor proficiency (get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a feat), take however many levels of Bladebound you think are appropriate (preferably with a longsword as the black blade), then go straight into Celestial Knight to cap it off. Probably not optimized, but it might just work well enough.

[grarrrg]

Blind_Prophet, perhaps you should take a look at this: Celestial Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/knight-of-ozem). Flavor wise, it seems like exactly what you're looking for. Your friend could take a level or three in Mendevian Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/mendevian-priest) Cleric of Iomedae for the shield and armor proficiency (get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a feat), take however many levels of Bladebound you think are appropriate (preferably with a longsword as the black blade), then go straight into Celestial Knight to cap it off. Probably not optimized, but it might just work well enough.

Fixed that for you :smallwink:
(straight up better for the first few levels)

[Beowulf DW]

Thank you, Grarrrg. Big fan of your guides, by the way. I hadn't realized just how many PrCs there are in Pathfinder. My friends and I have only recently gotten into the official setting, so we're more familiar with the core Prestige classes. And most of the time, we just stick with one class, anyway.

[Blind_Prophet]

Sounds nice except it has no spellcasting progression unless I'm missing something....is there a prestige class with divine spellcasting progression and undead focus?

[Beowulf DW]

The Celestial Knight has several abilities that can be fluffed as divine in origin. That certainly seems to be the implication, the way this PrC is written. Your friend will have some divine casting from the dip into cleric, but trying to optimize two different kinds of casting with a character that's already splitting its focus between arcane casting and combat is asking for trouble. With Celectial Knight, there's a compromise: abilities with a divine flavor to them that compliment one of the things your friend's character is already trying to do.

I still say that the best thing to do in this situation is to simply have your friend play a particularly religious magus. Magi get Infernal Healing on their own, and Hexcrafter Magi have access to the Healing Hex. You could easily say that your friend's magus has received these powers from a divine patron, if you so choose (skill focus [knowledge religion] would help, too). Fluff is mutable, remember this.

Blind_Prophet, this is a game in which we are expected to have backup; as such games like Pathfinder tend to reward certain amount of focus in character creation. If you want your friend's character to multiclass into a divine caster, fine. But you have to realize that while you're giving your friend lots of options to deal with problems that come up, none of these options are going to be as effective as you need them to be. Imagine trying to deal with a CR 6 monster when all you have are a bunch of 3rd level abilities/spells from two classes. Sure, you have a lot of options, but none of them are going to have the kick you need to resolve the encounter. Those options certainly won't be as effective as other members of the party who chose to specialize in either a divine class or an arcane class.

[Blind_Prophet]

Well my hope was to ditch any offensive or CC spells of the Magus in favor of Utility and Buff spells so I can dump Int focusing on either Wis/Dex or Wis/Str 16-17 levels of cleric (3 Magus...maybe Monk 1) should be more than enough...the MAIN reason for the Magus (Bladebound) levels is the ability to channel her heals through her melee attacks (so healing doesn't feel like she's "wasting" her turn) if there's a divine class/prestige class that can do this please let me know. The bit about the sentient weapon and her father being a magus is the fluff.

Oh and to clarify I'm normally not this resistant to suggestion I'm just trying to fulfill her requests I personally think Celestial Knight is really cool...I will pitch Magus "Hexer/Bladebound" to her....with Hexs refluffed as Blessings or something.

Question about Hexer that though...she can only use Hex's every 24 hours (per target)...and only gets one hex...does she have unlimited uses of said Hex beyond the 24 hour limit or does it work like a normal spellcaster?