How does skill ranks work with LA?

[Os1ris09]

Basically Im wondering if the max skill ranks is based off of your ECL or your class levels?

An example case to simplify things is take the following:

Pixie - Rog 6

Can the max skill ranks it have in any class skill be 13 or is it 9?

[Harrow]

LA doesn't raise the skill cap, only Hit Dice do that, which are gained from some races and classes.

[CRtwenty]

Pixies have one Racial HD so a Level 6 Pixie Rogue would have a maximum rank of 10 in class skills.

[sonofzeal]

Pixies have one Racial HD so a Level 6 Pixie Rogue would have a maximum rank of 10 in class skills.
If a race only has one RHD, then that's subsumed by their first level. A Pixie with six levels of Rogue has no RHD and a maximum rank of 9.

[CRtwenty]

If a race only has one RHD, then that's subsumed by their first level. A Pixie with six levels of Rogue has no RHD and a maximum rank of 9.

Yeah, I'm dumb. :smallredface:

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, I'm dumb. :smallredface:
Hey, no worries. The difficulty of untangling the web of rules and exceptions in 3.5 is *puts on sunglasses* CRtwenty. YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

[TuggyNE]

Hey, no worries. The difficulty of untangling the web of rules and exceptions in 3.5 is *puts on sunglasses* CRtwenty.

Oh my.

But yeah, the correct answers have been given, so my presence here is not really needed. Just to clarify though, full ECL (class levels + RHD + LA) is only used for XP/APL calculations and WBL tracking. Most things use character level (class levels + RHD), while class features obviously go by class level for the most part.

[Emperor Tippy]

while class features obviously go by class level for the most part.
Except when they go by HD, caster level, ability score, or something even odder. The worst though is when it is just "level" but is in a context where character, class, or caster level are all fully understandable.

D&D: Simple and consistent rules are for suckers.

[TuggyNE]

D&D: Simple and consistent rules are for suckers.

There is much wisdom in this observation.

[Os1ris09]

So in my example the max ranks for any skill would be 9?

[Curmudgeon]

If a race only has one RHD, then that's subsumed by their first level. No, not always. That's a rule for Humanoids and Class Levels.
A Pixie with six levels of Rogue has no RHD and a maximum rank of 9. This is true, just not for the reason you stated.
Pixies As Characters

A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. It's a rule specific to the Pixie race. (There's a similar race-specific exchange rule for Warforged.)

[BowStreetRunner]

So in my example the max ranks for any skill would be 9?

A Pixie Rogue 6 (without Irresistible Dance) would have 0 racial hit die, 6 class levels and a +4 level adjustment for a total ECL of 10. Total Hit Die would equal 6 and maximum ranks in a class skill would therefore be 9.

Did I miss anything?

Edit: D'oh! I was reading the last sentence in the original post ("Can the max skill ranks it have in any class skill be 13 or is it 9?") when I typed this and accidentally put 13 where I meant to put 10.

[Os1ris09]

A Pixie Rogue 6 (without Irresistible Dance) would have 0 racial hit die, 6 class levels and a +4 level adjustment for a total ECL of 13. Total Hit Die would equal 6 and maximum ranks in a class skill would therefore be 9.

Did I miss anything?

How'd you get ECL 13? with a LA of +4 and 6 class levels?

[Karnith]

Did I miss anything?
No, but a Pixie Rogue 6 has an ECL of 10, not 13.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Psyren]

No, not always. That's a rule for Humanoids and Class Levels. This is true, just not for the reason you stated. It's a rule specific to the Pixie race. (There's a similar race-specific exchange rule for Warforged.)

Note that even this isn't clear - the most common-sense interpretation is "humanoid-shaped." Otherwise the sample Elan Warrior 1 would be Elan 1/Warrior 1, and there would be Synad 1/Psion 9s running around at ECL 10. Ditto with the sample Duskling Barbarian 3, who would be 4th level - all three races lack the line you describe.

The actual rule says "creatures" even if the section header says Humanoids, so its up for debate.

[TuggyNE]

Note that even this isn't clear - the most common-sense interpretation is "humanoid-shaped." Otherwise the sample Elan Warrior 1 would be Elan 1/Warrior 1, and there would be Synad 1/Psion 9s running around at ECL 10. Ditto with the sample Duskling Barbarian 3, who would be 4th level - all three races lack the line you describe.

Of course, it's possible that all those sample characters are simply wrong by RAW. However, while one sample character being wrong is easy to imagine, multiple in different unrelated books are a little harder to swallow.


The actual rule says "creatures" even if the section header says Humanoids, so its up for debate.

What's more, there's another provision that may shed some more light:
When adding class levels to a creature with 1 or less HD, you advance the creature like a character. Otherwise, use the following guidelines.

Since there would be no need to mention special CR-calculation provisions for 1-HD and under creatures*, logically it seems it refers to the earlier mention of dropping the first HD.

*I.e., calculations using (non-)associated levels would be perfectly workable with 1 HD just as they would be with 2+, unless that first HD was actually being dropped.