Fighting Golems at low levels

[CRtwenty]

An issue that came up in one of my games today (I'm a player and wasn't present but I heard about it after the fact).

My party which includes a Human Bard1/Rogue4, Human Rogue1/Cloistered Cleric4, and a Human Druid 5 (with a raptor animal companion) entered a dungeon to find a magical key. Said key was embedded in the forehead of a Clay Golem at the bottom of the dungeon. They (foolishly imo) tried to fight it directly and nearly got TPK'd but managed to escape and retreat outside of the dungeon. My own character is an Orc Samurai4/Warblade1 (I understand it's unoptimized, it's intentional) but as I said before I wasn't able to attend today, another player with a 4 Elf Sorceror (specializing in Necromancy) was also missing.

My question is, how would you guys have managed to obtain the key in this case? Killing the Golem directly is going to be very difficult, so I'd imagine you'd have to find some other way of getting the key out of its forehead. What do you guys think?

[vampire2948]

Have the Bard or Sorceror cast Unseen Servant and use that to get it, perhaps? Unless it is too deeply embedded. :/

EDIT : Alternatively...


Cursed Wound (Ex)
The damage a clay golem deals doesn’t heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.

Attack it, run away, repeat. It won't heal inbetween, and it is slow.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Use Entangle and Grease to hold it, then kill it with no SR spells or Alchemists Fire. You'll probably need a wand to get through it's hp though.

[TuggyNE]

Attack it, run away, repeat. It won't heal inbetween, and it is slow.

That's … true, but not because of the rule you quoted; rather, that makes the PCs that get injured unable to heal. Thus, any injuries the party sustains during the course of fighting it will also remain. (Constructs cannot heal themselves, in general.)

[Gwendol]

Have the druid cast stone shape in such a way the golem is trapped (seems possible based on the fact it's at the bottom of the dungeon). Pelt it with sling bullets and thrown hammers until it is destroyed.

[CRtwenty]

Have the druid cast stone shape in such a way the golem is trapped (seems possible based on the fact it's at the bottom of the dungeon). Pelt it with sling bullets and thrown hammers until it is destroyed.

Clay Golems have DR 10/Adamantine and Bludgeoning, so unless we found some Adamantine hammers and slingstones in the dungeon that isn't going to work.

Was talking to the DM a little bit ago, apparently he put a ten foot deep hole right outside the Golem's room that he expected them to kite it into. They instead decided to rush the thing and then complain about him sending a creature with such a high CR at them. :smallannoyed:

Oh well, we should be able to kill it easily next session with a full party. Still interested in hearing some combat strategies though. :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

Yes, for some reason I missed the "and". Alchemists fire it is then!

[hymer]

Why would it fall in? Why wouldn't it climb out? Constructs may be that stupid in this campaign, but I wouldn't fault players for assuming it wasn't quite that bad.

Anyway, once you've gotten it in, you still have to find a way to kill it or get the key away from it. Adamantine sling bullets aren't hugely expensive. 60gp 1sp for 10.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why would it fall in? Why wouldn't it climb out? Constructs may be that stupid in this campaign, but I wouldn't fault players for assuming it wasn't quite that bad.

Anyway, once you've gotten it in, you still have to find a way to kill it or get the key away from it. Adamantine sling bullets aren't hugely expensive. 60gp 1sp for 10.

Alchemists Fire costs 20gp per dose for 2d6 damage.
A wand of Lesser Orb of Fire costs 750gp (15 per use) at 1d8 damage.
Neither is subject to the golems magic immunity.

Also, golems aren't just stupid, they're mindless. Put it in a situation it's not programmed to deal with and it's stuck. Even if it could climb, the check is probably at a 20 or 25DC climb check while the golem only has a +7 from it's strength.

[Darrin]

Alchemists Fire costs 20gp per dose for 2d6 damage.


Stonebreaker's Acid (A&EG) also costs 20 GP, but does 5d10 damage over 2 rounds.



A wand of Lesser Orb of Fire costs 750gp (15 per use) at 1d8 damage.
Neither is subject to the golems magic immunity.


Easier to use a wand of silent image to put up four illusionary stone walls around the golem, and then just walk around it.

[Feint's End]

Get your bard a scroll of silent image .... use the image to create an exact copy of the environment around the golem -> now the golem can't percieve changes in the environemt (golems get no check to look through illusions). You just need someone with a good move silently skill from there and you are good to go.

[hymer]

@ sleepyphoenixx: If mindless really meant utterly incompetent at everything, they wouldn't be able to fight. They wouldn't do anything, they'd just stand there. So someone has to decide just how useless they really are. Walking over an edge and falling down into something they can't get out of - in the place they spend their time - is a pretty glaring programming error (didn't the creator see Robocop?) to the point where players shouldn't necessarily expect golems to fall for that.
As for making the climb check, it's a Large creature in a 10' hole. How hard would it be? Again, the golem might just be that incompetent, but I don't know of any rules explanation that the golem would be trapped permanently.

@ Darrin: They need a key embedded in the golem's forehead.

[TuggyNE]

golems get no check to look through illusions

That's not exactly correct; they are certainly capable of attempting a Will save, but are unlikely to do so without unusual programming, since they will probably not interact with a well-chosen illusion, and will almost certainly not spend actions to study it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a melee monster that's utterly incapable of dealing with any kind of SR:no BFC spell. Spells that any halfway competent caster has memorized as SOP.
As long as the players aren't stupid enough to engage it in melee the only problem is getting through it's DR in a cheap and timely fashion.

[Gwendol]

Agreed, mindless is just that. They lack the basic functions to assimilate and analyze data from the world around them. This is a robot.
Another way would be to trick the thing that one of you is its maker (the bard could perhaps use alter self) and simply order it to hand over the key.

[Jack_Simth]

As to dropping it down the pit: A large creature down a 10-foot hole is in a chimney, which is -10 to the climb DC. With a +7 Strength modifier, this means that if the pit is made of "A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall." (DC 25, the highest the table goes beyond 'no'), then the golem is looking at needing an 8. With a Climb check, it's out in, like, two move actions. No training required.



Easier to use a wand of silent image to put up four illusionary stone walls around the golem, and then just walk around it.Catch: They need the key from the golem's forehead. No goal past the golem to get to.

[eggynack]

Personally, I would have just summoned dire wolves at it until it died. Without augment summoning, 1d8 damage is still consistently getting through the DR on a successful hit. With augment summoning, they're each dealing 1d8+2 damage each hit. Eventually, as long as the golem doesn't have access to healing, he's probably going to die. If the bard and cleric want to add some buffs to the mix, that could probably help out too. It's ultimately another form of attrition based murder, but it would probably work after a few days. Crocodiles might also be able to deal minimal amounts of extra damage, though I'd probably use those slots on other things, like a mass snake's swiftness after all of the summons are in place.

[Feint's End]

That's not exactly correct; they are certainly capable of attempting a Will save, but are unlikely to do so without unusual programming, since they will probably not interact with a well-chosen illusion, and will almost certainly not spend actions to study it.

Yeah that's what I was aiming at. I pretty much expect the players to be smart enough to pull it off the right way.

[Sparkzlight]

Soften Earth and Stone. Would that make it into a clay golem?

Stone Shape, as somebody mentioned earlier.

[Roguenewb]

If you had a relatively decent Super-Charger type character, and could find anyway under the stars to obtain an adamantine hammer, he might be able to smash it for some serious hits, and then have someone snake's swiftness. Buffed up by the whole team, with like benign transposition to get the charger out of the way to let him charge again. Might honestly be able to smash through the beast before they die. Not easy, but distinctly possible.

[Invader]

Personally, I would have just summoned dire wolves at it until it died. Without augment summoning, 1d8 damage is still consistently getting through the DR on a successful hit. With augment summoning, they're each dealing 1d8+2 damage each hit. Eventually, as long as the golem doesn't have access to healing, he's probably going to die. If the bard and cleric want to add some buffs to the mix, that could probably help out too. It's ultimately another form of attrition based murder, but it would probably work after a few days. Crocodiles might also be able to deal minimal amounts of extra damage, though I'd probably use those slots on other things, like a mass snake's swiftness after all of the summons are in place.

How is 1d8+2 getting through DR 10?

[sleepyphoenixx]

How is 1d8+2 getting through DR 10?

Dire Wolves have STR 25, so 1d8 +14 after augment summoning.

[Jeraa]

Soften Earth and Stone. Would that make it into a clay golem?

Stone Shape, as somebody mentioned earlier.

Its already a clay golem. Plus, Soften Earth and Stone only works on unworked stone or earth. A stone golem would therefore be immune to it.


Stonebreaker's Acid (A&EG) also costs 20 GP, but does 5d10 damage over 2 rounds.

Again, clay golem, not stone golem. Stonebreaker acid only harms stone. Not to mention, clay golems heal from any acid damage.

[eggynack]

How is 1d8+2 getting through DR 10?
1d8+2 is the end damage after DR. If you'd just look at the stat block, you'd see that they have 1d8+10, which is 1d8+12 after augment. That +10 just gets reduced to zero, leaving you with a straight 1d8, and the 1d8+12 gets reduced to 1d8+2.

Edit: Actually, the +4 strength from augment summoning gets you to 1d8+13, because of the 1.5*strength multiplier. So, it is thus slightly better than I claimed, and a bit worse than phoenix claimed

[sleepyphoenixx]

Apparently i fail at math :smalltongue:
Sue me, it's late here.

[eggynack]

Apparently i fail at math :smalltongue:
Sue me, it's late here.
Eh, I screwed it up too. By the exact same amount, actually. Still at the end, we have arrived at the truth of the matter. That truth, is that druids are awesome.

[Invader]

1d8+2 is the end damage after DR. If you just look at block, you'd see that they have 1d8+10, which is 1d8+12 after augment. That +10 just gets reduced to zero, leaving you with a straight 1d8, and the 1d8+12 gets reduced to 1d8+2.

Edit: Actually, the +4 strength from augment summoning gets you to 1d8+13, because of the 1.5*strength multiplier. So, it is thus slightly better than I claimed, and a bit worse than phoenix claimed

Sorry I don't carry my books with me at work :smallwink:
The way it was worded made it sound like 1d8+2 was enough damage to get through their DR.

[eggynack]

Sorry I don't carry my books with me at work :smallwink:
The way it was worded made it sound like 1d8+2 was enough damage to get through their DR.
Yeah, the phrasing was a bit on the ambiguous side. It was intended to mean that 1d8 damage is going to pass through the DR, while it can simultaneously mean that 1d8 damage is enough to get past the DR. It's an odd thing, of some kind.

[Slipperychicken]

Oil flasks are much cheaper than Alchemist Fire. The full-round to prep with a fuse isn't important because you can do that before you run into it, and the 50% fail chance isn't an issue because you can buy tons of the stuff and there's almost no penalty for missing.

So yeah; walk in, throw a lit oil flask (stop whining, its touch AC is 8 and oil flasks only cost a silver each), then run out. Since its land speed is only 20ft, you should be able to do this without any issues.

Don't forget the damage-over-time burn damage, which keeps going until it blows a full-round action and succeeds a DC 15 Reflex save to extinguish it. Then you resume throwing flasks so it catches fire again. Rinse and repeat until it falls over dead.

[Gwendol]

Which it might not realize it needs to do, being mindless and all. I'd open up with alchemists fire and follow up with oil, using that for fuse. Or just light the oil with produce flame: they have a druid after all.

[Slipperychicken]

Which it might not realize it needs to do, being mindless and all. I'd open up with alchemists fire and follow up with oil, using that for fuse. Or just light the oil with produce flame: they have a druid after all.

Alchemist Fire is nice, but it's more fun to realize that a level 1 Halfling with a pony and 7gp worth of lamp oil can safely take down a CR 10 golem.

[CRtwenty]

We did a quick session tonight to end the dungeon.
The Druid had some Stone Shapes he apparently hadn't used last session and we were able to lure the Golem into a narrow corridor it had to squeeze through. Two Stone Shapes later and it was trapped in a new stone wall except for its head and we were able to easily pull out the key (which deactivated it).

So... go not rushing blindly into combat I guess. :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

Hurrah for stone shape! :smallsmile:

[CRtwenty]

Hurrah for stone shape! :smallsmile:

Yeah, I don't even know why they didn't just beat it last session if they had that available. My group uses the hell out of that spell. They'll probably be getting a wand of it before too long because of how much they use it.