Roy Vs. Undead Spellcasters

[Ghost Nappa]

Up to this point in time (#895) we have only seen Roy use his Special Familial Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) against Magicians and Spellcasters in an illusion. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html)

While the confrontation between Xykon and Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) is inevitable (probably premature for Roy currently), we've more recently been introduced to two more Undead Spellcasters, Malack, cleric of Nergal, and perhaps far more interestingly, Count Durkula.

Do you think that we will see a Roy Vs. Durkula fight before or after Malack frees him from thralldom? Why? How? Who would win? etc.

Side-Comment: I've been wondering for the longest time why the name "Malack" sounds familiar and I figured it out. "Darth" Malak is the antagonist of Knights of the Old Republic.

Edit: Besides, it's not like Roy has gotten close to hitting Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html) with his word before.

[Xelbiuj]

Malack seems rational, no reason Durkon wouldn't be, pissed at Malack for sure but I don't see any reason for him to go against Roy.

[Morty]

I think that between the starmetal sword and his grandfather's special techniques, Roy might well have an advantage against Durkon and Malack if he ends up fighting one or both of them.

As for Malack's name, it's not based on Darth Malak. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22)

[Ghost Nappa]

I think that between the starmetal sword and his grandfather's special techniques, Roy might well have an advantage against Durkon and Malack if he ends up fighting one or both of them.

As for Malack's name, it's not based on Darth Malak. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22)

I agree, hence why I made the thread. I mention it because we haven't actually seen a sustained encounter between members of the Order and Malack and Durkula introduce an opportunity for such an event, in theory (Malack is Lawful and has been following his word...)

Also, I'm aware of the lack of connection to KOTOR. I just thought it was cool.

[Kiraxa]

Pretty sure Malack would wipe the floor with Roy for one simple reason. Domination gaze. Roy only has a will save of 5-10, depending on wis score and if he took any save boosting feats. And If my math is right. The DC on the gaze is 17-21, depending on Malack's charisma. The gaze can be used as a standard action every turn without limit, so all malack would have to do is keep gazing him until he has control.

[Scurvy Cur]

That said, we do have some opinion, courtesy of Pre-vampire Durkon, that Roy alone out of the other party members, is likely to survive the domination gaze.

And while the gaze can be used as a standard action every turn, it may be a tactically weaker choice than other tools at Malack's disposal, if Roy is likely to save against it, especially if Malack finds he needs to start employing his spells to defend himself.

[Morty]

I consider Durkon's assessment that Roy is less likely to succumb to Malack's hypnotic gaze than others more important than what the rules say about his Will save, yeah.

[AstralFire]

Three words:

Song. of. Freedom.

:smallamused:

"What's that? You wasted last round dominating a party member? FREEDOM! Stab, stab, stab the undead monstrosity!"

[bguy]

Three words:

Song. of. Freedom.

Song of Freedom takes a full minute to perform, so its unlikely Elan could succesfully use it mid-battle.

[AstralFire]

Oh, right, forgot, what with the single-panel freedom.

[Turtlesbanes]

Also, and more importantly, Malack seems to be honoring Durkon's last living request to not kill any of the OotS. So I don't think we're going to see them fight any time soon, if ever.

[Snails]

Pretty sure Malack would wipe the floor with Roy for one simple reason. Domination gaze. Roy only has a will save of 5-10, depending on wis score and if he took any save boosting feats. And If my math is right. The DC on the gaze is 17-21, depending on Malack's charisma. The gaze can be used as a standard action every turn without limit, so all malack would have to do is keep gazing him until he has control.

Domination can be defeated by a simple Protection from Evil spell. It is a nice trick, but not reliable at higher levels. Assuming this will work at all could easily be a lethal error.

Malack has a measly ~78 hit points. As Malack does not seem to like any kind of armor, Roy can probably send him back to his coffin with a single full iterative attack.

As already mentioned, Malack is trying to honor Durkon's last wishes. Once Girard's Gate is destroyed, it is not apparent there will be direct conflict before the end game. From Malack's POV the Order is adequately beaten. Until Roy brings in reinforcements, picking a fight would be silly.

[veti]

Pretty sure Malack would wipe the floor with Roy for one simple reason. Domination gaze.

First, spamming 'Domination gaze' until Roy fails his saving throw is a boring fight to watch, therefore unlikely to happen.

Second, it requires a standard action, which means he has to spend his time manoeuvring to avoid Roy's Attack of Opportunity in addition to his regular attacks. Malack's armour class is nothing to write home about (Durkon landed a couple of good whacks on him), and nor is his level (couldn't dispel Durkon's spell). So Malack would be trying to dominate Roy while taking a steady 2-3 hits per round, which means he'll be lucky to make a concentration check at all. And that's without even considering any relevant feats Roy may have.


Also, and more importantly, Malack seems to be honoring Durkon's last living request to not kill any of the OotS. So I don't think we're going to see them fight any time soon, if ever.

You think the character who killed Durkon in what must qualify, for him, as the most horrible way imaginable - is just going to be allowed to walk?

I don't see it.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Roy v Durkon is a reasonable theory. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to come to anything.

SPOILERS: There are two prophecies related to Durkon. One is in Origin of the PCs, where it is prophesied that Durkon will bring ruin with him the next time he returns home. The second is in the comic, where it is prophesied that Durkon will return to his dwarven homeland posthumously.

Finally, we know that Kraagor's Gate is somewhere in the north in his homelands. We can conclude that Durkon, once freed from Malack's influence, will return to his dwarven homeland and wreak bloody havoc as a vampire. Any fight with Roy will be minor until Durkon goes and does this.

[Anatares]

Finally, we know that Kraagor's Gate is somewhere in the north in his homelands. We can conclude that Durkon, once freed from Malack's influence, will return to his dwarven homeland and wreak bloody havoc as a vampire. Any fight with Roy will be minor until Durkon goes and does this.

I think it's less likely that Durkon, at least given his personality thus far, would return to his homeland as a vampire of his own volition. I think it more likely that Malack will keep him under his control as part of Team Tarquin, and once this gate is destroyed, they all head for Kraagor's gate. In keeping with the story's trend for dramatic/traumatic moments, I predict Durkon's thralldom will last until after his homeland is in ruins so he gets to see what he's done. Probably pretty dark, but him dying in the first place as he did was already pretty dark.

Just my two cents :)

[Kiraxa]

Domination can be defeated by a simple Protection from Evil spell. It is a nice trick, but not reliable at higher levels. Assuming this will work at all could easily be a lethal error.

Malack has a measly ~78 hit points. As Malack does not seem to like any kind of armor, Roy can probably send him back to his coffin with a single full iterative attack.

As already mentioned, Malack is trying to honor Durkon's last wishes. Once Girard's Gate is destroyed, it is not apparent there will be direct conflict before the end game. From Malack's POV the Order is adequately beaten. Until Roy brings in reinforcements, picking a fight would be silly.

How do you figure Malack only has 78 hit points? Thats a possible average, but he could have 132 with some incredibly good rolls (assuming the lowest possible level of 11, since he cast Harm), and armored robes, while not the most effective, do exist.
Edit: also, the order of the stick has no manner of producing a "simple" protection from evil at this point, at least until V returns.

[Coat]

13 x 6.5 = 84.5

6.5 is the average (mean) for d12, which is what Malack gets as an undead. 12 levels of cleric (from class and level geekery, needed for craft staff). +1 HD for lizardman.

Someone else can do the maths on likely variance from that median.

Don't forget +6 AC for vampire, and +5 for lizardman, giving him better armour than non-magical full plate + shield in his bare skin scales. And damage reduction 10 (except against weapons which are both silver and magic - Roy's sword may not count).

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I think it's less likely that Durkon, at least given his personality thus far, would return to his homeland as a vampire of his own volition. I think it more likely that Malack will keep him under his control as part of Team Tarquin, and once this gate is destroyed, they all head for Kraagor's gate. In keeping with the story's trend for dramatic/traumatic moments, I predict Durkon's thralldom will last until after his homeland is in ruins so he gets to see what he's done. Probably pretty dark, but him dying in the first place as he did was already pretty dark.

Just my two cents :)

That's completely out of character for Malack, he has already stated his intent to make Durkon free-willed. On the other hand, we have Durkon with a newfound craving for blood, Lawful Evil alignment, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +4 Cha. We have no idea what exactly will happen if Malack dies or de-thralls him because this is a major character development, but we know it won't be pretty.

[Snails]

How do you figure Malack only has 78 hit points? Thats a possible average, but he could have 132 with some incredibly good rolls (assuming the lowest possible level of 11, since he cast Harm), and armored robes, while not the most effective, do exist.
Edit: also, the order of the stick has no manner of producing a "simple" protection from evil at this point, at least until V returns.

I never said he had "exactly 78 hit points", I said that he had "~78 hit points". What is your point?

Since it is an overt fact that Roy did not charge in or hastily set up an ambush when they had the chance, I think it is fair to assume that the Order will do a non-zero amount of preparation before choosing to engage the LG or TT, or before putting themselves in harm's way. There are many possible ways to gain access to Protection From Evil -- V would just be the most convenient one.

[Kiraxa]

13 x 6.5 = 84.5

6.5 is the average (mean) for d12, which is what Malack gets as an undead. 12 levels of cleric (from class and level geekery, needed for craft staff). +1 HD for lizardman.

Someone else can do the maths on likely variance from that median.

Don't forget +6 AC for vampire, and +5 for lizardman, giving him better armour than non-magical full plate + shield in his bare skin scales. And damage reduction 10 (except against weapons which are both silver and magic - Roy's sword may not count).

Yes but why assume average HP? He could have gotten very lucky/unlucky on his rolls. And my point is that his HP total matters a crapton when you're assuming Roy could drop him in one round.

[Belkar<3]

I think that between the starmetal sword and his grandfather's special techniques, Roy might well have an advantage against Durkon and Malack if he ends up fighting one or both of them.

As for Malack's name, it's not based on Darth Malak. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22)

Malack, perhaps, but Durkula? No. Durkon gained +8 levels when he vampired, so even if he is rather inexperienced in vampirism, he is pretty much epic. Plus, Durkon has a melee, something that Malack lacks. I'd like to see Roy vs. Malack, but Roy would get crushed if you added in Durkula.

[Emanick]

Malack, perhaps, but Durkula? No. Durkon gained +8 levels when he vampired, so even if he is rather inexperienced in vampirism, he is pretty much epic. Plus, Durkon has a melee, something that Malack lacks. I'd like to see Roy vs. Malack, but Roy would get crushed if you added in Durkula.

Level adjustment is different than CR, which matters more in a straight-up fight. Durkula is considerably stronger than Durkon, but he's no match for a cleric eight levels higher than himself.

[Snails]

Yes but why assume average HP? He could have gotten very lucky/unlucky on his rolls. And my point is that his HP total matters a crapton when you're assuming Roy could drop him in one round.

I never assumed Roy would drop Malack in a single round. I used the would "probably", with respect to a full iterative attack. How to get a full iterative attack can be difficult, but the point is that Malack cannot simply wait for Roy to fail his Will save against Domination. A full iterative attack or two single attacks (which usually benefit from bigger Power Attack) could end the fight. Attempting to use Domination a second time after one failure could be a lethal error against Roy.

Averages are not definitive, but they are a useful guide for shaping better speculation.

Speculating on the theoretical limits does not help. Roy could roll a '15' on his Will save ten times in a row, thereby "proving" your point about Domination is irrelevant. Roy could use full power attack, hit 3 times with high rolls and get max rolls on the damage, inflicting damage north of 150 point in a single round, thereby "proving" your point about good hit point rolls irrelevant.

What does this quality of reason buy us?

[Kiraxa]

I never assumed Roy would drop Malack in a single round. I used the would "probably", with respect to a full iterative attack. How to get a full iterative attack can be difficult, but the point is that Malack cannot simply wait for Roy to fail his Will save against Domination. A full iterative attack or two single attacks (which usually benefit from bigger Power Attack) could end the fight. Attempting to use Domination a second time after one failure could be a lethal error against Roy.

Averages are not definitive, but they are a useful guide for shaping better speculation.

Speculating on the theoretical limits does not help. Roy could roll a '15' on his Will save ten times in a row, thereby "proving" your point about Domination is irrelevant. Roy could use full power attack, hit 3 times with high rolls and get max rolls on the damage, inflicting damage north of 150 point in a single round, thereby "proving" your point about good hit point rolls irrelevant.

What does this quality of reason buy us?
Well the reason it matters is because Malack has exactly as many hit points as the plot demands. So saying Roy would drop him in one iterative attack is completely inaccurate.

[Snails]

Well the reason it matters is because Malack has exactly as many hit points as the plot demands. So saying Roy would drop him in one iterative attack is completely inaccurate.

The plot will also determine whether a PC known to have high mental stats can make a Will save. Do you have a point?

[AstralFire]

Well the reason it matters is because Malack has exactly as many hit points as the plot demands. So saying Roy would drop him in one iterative attack is completely inaccurate.

I am perfectly cool with people making narrative observations, since the comic has long skipped past strict mechanics - but it would probably be best to make that argument on "why it would be good for the plot" and not hit points.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I am perfectly cool with people making narrative observations, since the comic has long skipped past strict mechanics - but it would probably be best to make that argument on "why it would be good for the plot" and not hit points.

Yep. I think it's likely that Malack will be killed in the pyramid for karmic reasons. Tarqin will get away after a climactic battle with Xykon, Nale will have to slink away with his tail between his legs, and Zdrizzit will probably be killed by Xykon because he's too dangerous to leave alive. Xykon and Redcloak will find the Gate to be useless when they arrive. Haley and Elan have to stay alive for Elan's happy ending, and V has no less than three possessions in the queue which would be wasted if he died. Roy isn't likely to die again because it won't be funny enough and he probably won't die until he has seen Celia again. Belkar has already had a fake-out death once this story arc, he's scared and bitter, and it wouldn't be a truly karmic death unless he died while doing something Evil, so I'll drop one hundred quatloos on Belkar not dying before they begin to head to Kraagor's gate.

[Snails]

The narrative argument would be that a main protagonist identified explicitly in comic as likely to withstand Domination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) is never going to be dominated, in a manner that directly determines the course of the main plot.

Another narrative argument would be that a physically strong PC Fighter with a +5 sword with a special ability against undead is certainly going to be hazardous to the (un)health of non-Epic undead. To suggest otherwise would be to be blinkered by a Fighters Suck ideology-- even if that position may (or may not) have merit at someone's gaming table, the author clearly does not choose to apply such to his universe.

[Chronos]

Clearly, Durkon is going to end up free-willed and interacting with the party in some manner or another, since he's one of the six most important characters in the story.

Malack intends to return to the City of Blood with his new progeny and get him set up with a coffin and all before he releases him. If this happens, the chance of Durkon showing up again in the story is minuscule.

Therefore, Durkon must end up getting released in some other way than Malack deliberately releasing him. The obvious way for this to happen is Malack's destruction.

[Ghost Nappa]

Belkar has already had a fake-out death once this story arc, he's scared and bitter, and it wouldn't be a truly karmic death unless he died while doing something Evil, so I'll drop one hundred quatloos on Belkar not dying before they begin to head to Kraagor's gate.

That makes sense to me.

Speculation: Linear Guild goes to Kraggor's Gate with OotS following.
Durkula goes on rampage fulfilling the prophecies. Malack and Belkar die from...something. Durkula is freed and Belkar's death echoes Kraagor's.

[RadagastTheBrow]

You think the character who killed Durkon in what must qualify, for him, as the most horrible way imaginable - is just going to be allowed to walk?


Well, it's more of a slither, really. :smalltongue:

[Coat]

... my point is that his HP total matters a crapton when you're assuming Roy could drop him in one round.

Going by class & level geekery, minimum estimates:

Lvl 14 fighter gets BAB +14, +9, +4. +7 for a min strength of 24, +5 for sword, +2 for focus and greater focus. So base roll is +28, +23, +18.

Malack base DC of 10, +11 for vampire + lizardfolk, +2 for racial dex adjustment, with vampire bonus. Minimum AC is 23. If Malack doesn't have at least another +5 from items, I will be very surprised.

So in a straight face-to-face fight, Roy's first attack will hit unless he rolls a 1, his second needs 5+, and the third 10+. Power attack on the first is an option, but a risk. On the second and third, the chance of a miss if he power-attacks is substantial.

Damage: 2d6 (average 7), +5, +10 for strength x 1.5, +4 for specialisation & greater specialisation. So average 26 damage, without power attack, and before green energy. Damage reduction takes 10 off that.

If all three attacks hit, without green energy, that's half Malack's average HP. If green energy averages anything close to the 10 points of DR Malack gets, it could be close to all of Malack's average HP.

If Malack hasn't got any additional +AC items, and Roy gets some power attacks in, it could easily go over the top. If Malack is seriously stacked with items, buffs, and extra HP (from draining Roy's best friend, for example), or if the green energy doesn't fire, Roy may do no more than scratch him.

Yeah. it's close.
Or, alternatively, I've got the figures all wrong.

[Kish]

You think the character who killed Durkon in what must qualify, for him, as the most horrible way imaginable - is just going to be allowed to walk?

I don't see it.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure "murdered Durkon" put the kibosh on "Roy will be willing to make nice with Malack at any point ever again."

(Although the most horrible imaginable way to kill Durkon would probably involve merging him with a tree somehow, and then animating him as an undead treant from the Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium.)

[Snails]

Thanks, Coat.

The numbers are slightly closer than I thought, but it does not take anything more than a combination of a few simple tactics for Roy to push into 100+ damage range. Two or three from this list would be sufficient: Haste, Inspire Greatness from Elan, Belkar in a flanking position, star metal nullifying DR.

We also know that Durkon did not seem to have trouble hitting Malack. While AC 28 seems like a fair guess, IMO it is more likely for Malack to be south of there rather than northwards.

If Roy is single attacking, that is unfortunate for Roy, but it also means he can uncork the big Power Attack. If Roy charges in and hits for 40-50 damage, what does Malack do then? Bet his life that Roy did not slurp a Potion of Protection for Evil seems like not the best tactical decision.

[Kiraxa]

Or Roy charges, rolls a 1 on his first swing, even with his bab, a 1 is always a miss. And then he gets dominated. (Assuming protection from evil is foolish because we've never seen it used, and you can be sure they'd have used it charging into a Lich's lair. Or any other evil thing they've fought.)

[Snails]

Or Roy charges, rolls a 1 on his first swing, even with his bab, a 1 is always a miss. And then he gets dominated. (Assuming protection from evil is foolish because we've never seen it used, and you can be sure they'd have used it charging into a Lich's lair. Or any other evil thing they've fought.)

I would note that it is you who appears to believe your own argument would collapse without resorting to putting words into my mouth.

Malack knows that it is possible for Roy to protect himself with a simple potion. Is it a smart to play on his part to assume Roy is not capable of planning for a fight? Keep in mind that Malack is choosing to avoid this fight, so it is more likely that it is Roy who is forcing the issue.

Of course, the numbers suggest it is more likely that Roy gets lucky with Will saves, than he gets too unlucky with attack rolls. But that is so obvious, I do not see any need to go into detail there.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also the issue of if this is a one-on-one or a group effort. We know Haley has silver arrows, and magic bows enchant their ammo, so those become magic silver arrows, which would bypass the DR.

Belkar's probably out on too many grounds to list properly, which takes Mr. Scruffy out of play as well.

Elan's best move might be his Mass Cure Light Wounds rather than Bardic Music.

Or Roy could just drop the roof again.:smallwink:

[Bulldog Psion]

Or Roy could just drop the roof again.:smallwink:

That's going to become his signature maneuver. :smallbiggrin:

[Snails]

That's going to become his signature maneuver. :smallbiggrin:

Will Redcloak contest the claim?

[rodneyAnonymous]

There's also the issue of if this is a one-on-one or a group effort. We know Haley has silver arrows, and magic bows enchant their ammo, so those become magic silver arrows, which would bypass the DR.

Arrows are piercing damage. Undead are immune to piercing damage (and take half damage from slashing), I believe.

Oh, no, I am remembering wrong: that is not all undead, only certain kinds.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, vampires are kind of the poster child for undead vulnerable to piercing damage.:smalltongue:

[rodneyAnonymous]

It is not the damage from the wooden stake that threatens a vampire. ;) But yeah that is mainly skeletons.

[thereaper]

You realize that it would be highly anticlimactic for Roy to drop Malack in one full attack without the use of his new feat, right?

[pearl jam]

You realize that it would be highly anticlimactic for Roy to drop Malack in one full attack without the use of his new feat, right?

Unless he's meant to use the feat on Xykon, rather than Malak? :smallconfused:

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Unless he's meant to use the feat on Xykon, rather than Malak? :smallconfused:

Um... At this rate it's even more likely he's going to have to use it on V.

[thereaper]

Now that would be hilarious.

:vaarsuvius: @_@

:elan: "Oh no, V has the swirly eyes!"

:roy: "Not for long, he doesn't"

:vaarsuvius: "Disinte- *fizzle* Quickened Hold Per- *fizzle*"

V goes down and gets tied up. Meanwhile, in the lower planes...

o_O

O_o

o_O

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Now that would be hilarious.

:vaarsuvius: @_@

:elan: "Oh no, V has the swirly eyes!"

:roy: "Not for long, he doesn't"

:vaarsuvius: "Disinte- *fizzle* Quickened Hold Per- *fizzle*"

V goes down and gets tied up. Meanwhile, in the lower planes...

o_O

O_o

o_O

The foreshadowing is correct, but it's not climactic enough. We're at this chapter's endgame, but there are still too many pieces on the board.

However, that would make a nice parallel. The machinations of Roy's grandfather in the Upper Planes versus the machinations of the IFF.

[thereaper]

The reaction of Roy's father would be even better.

"Wait, did he just...That's not even possible!"

[Cavenskull]

As for Malack's name, it's not based on Darth Malak. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9521959&postcount=22)
You forgot to mention Tarquin as well. :smallwink:

[Kish]

You forgot to mention Tarquin as well. :smallwink:
*ahem*

Tarquin's name is also not based on Darth Malak!

[TRH]

*ahem*

Tarquin's name is also not based on Darth Malak!

Then who is his name based on? Darth Sion? :smalltongue:

[137beth]

Then who is his name based on? Darth Sion? :smalltongue:
Tarquin is obviously based on Tarquinius Vader Superbus:smalltongue:

[Fish]

I think it's less likely that Durkon, at least given his personality thus far, would return to his homeland as a vampire of his own volition.
I disagree. How long has it been since we have seen a piece of wood, from which to craft a wooden stake?

Besides, we don't know much about Durkon except:
a. He's good.
b. He likes to drink beer.
c. He worships Thor and has a "what would Thor do?" bracelet.
d. He's terrified of trees.
e. he has an affair with a dwarven cleric of Loki.
f. He obeyed the command to stay away from his homeland.

Now that Durkon is a vampire:
a. He's evil, and may remain so after he's released by Malack.
b. He likes to drink blood.
c. He may not get to worship Thor.
d. He needs a tree (or a piece of wood) to unvamp himself. There's no wood nearby, because it is a desert.
e. He knows there is a friendly evil cleric who might in his homeland.

Do you really think he will stick to his guns on F?

Look at it this way: what would have happened if Durkon hadn't been vamped? He would tell the Order, "Och, I ken that Savin' th' world be important an' all, but I gave me word never to return." Durkon is Lawful to a fault. Being vamped can really only mean Durkon does return.

[Snails]

You realize that it would be highly anticlimactic for Roy to drop Malack in one full attack without the use of his new feat, right?

It is a good point. But my original argument is that Malack cannot afford to simply wait for Roy to fail his Will save. If Roy applies simple tactics, the clock is ticking.

If a toe-to-toe fight occurs, from a narrative POV, it seems likely that a very wounded Malack would attempt to heal himself with a spell only to be suddenly killed for making the attempt.

[Katuko]

If a toe-to-toe fight occurs, from a narrative POV, it seems likely that a very wounded Malack would attempt to heal himself with a spell only to be suddenly killed for making the attempt.
He could also do what he did against Durkon and go into mist form to retreat. I'm not all that good with the finer details of D&D, so please enlighten me a bit. When the description says that Gaseous Form grants damage reduction 10/magic, and that they lose all material armor values, does that mean that regular attacks from a magic weapon (such as a +5 sword, disregarding special undead-killing properties) still deals full damage? They are also neither ethereal or incorporeal, so are they considered viable targets for swords in the first place?

I've kind of assumed that gas form means that physical blows pass through the cloud without dealing damage, but apparently this applies to non-magic weapons vs incorporeal creatures, not gas.

[SaintRidley]

Katuko - Vampires always have DR 10/Silver and Magic, whether gaseous or not. In gaseous they would have DR 10/Magic, but it overlaps with their normal DR so they still have DR 10/Silver and Magic.

Which means that no matter what, a vampire subtracts ten damage from every physical attack made against them unless the weapon is both silver and magic.

Going by the description of Gaseous Form, Roy could still swing away at him.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Going by the description of Gaseous Form, Roy could still swing away at him.

(And deal damage, though the DR would block 10 each attack.)