NPC Class Campaign

[Sparkzlight]

My friends and I are going to be starting up an 3.5 NPC class adventure soon, and I'd like to know if anybody else has done something like this, and if they have any tips.

I'm setting up a fairly easy (well, easy for level 1 PC classes that is) starter dungeon, in the haunted forest... Etc... Etc...

The Adept is going to be our go-to healer, Expert is our skill-monkey pseudo-rogue, the Aristocrat is kind of the party face, being skilled in diplomacy, bluff, etc... And I'll probably be running an NPC warrior (there are four people in our group, including me, the DM). Nobody wanted to play the commoner, for some reason.

I think it will be fun, as the players can't really just wade through hordes of kobolds and goblins. It'll be more challenging, plus humanoid enemies will still be a factor at higher levels.

[Bubzors]

I haven't done anything like that but have heard of a few other people who have. You should definitely read Joe Wood Commoner Campaign Journal. It's a great read and will give you plenty of mundane obstacles to give to your players.

Here is the link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign

[Threadnaught]

Just you wait until JaronK gets here. He said something before about a campaign that had all of his players as Commoners and members of a town guard.

Dealing with Adventurers and the aftermath.

[Sparkzlight]

I haven't done anything like that but have heard of a few other people who have. You should definitely read Joe Wood Commoner Campaign Journal. It's a great read and will give you plenty of mundane obstacles to give to your players.

Here is the link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign

I am a big fan of Joe Wood, in fact. :D

I think that the party will be wannabe adventurers inspired by a powerful adventuring group that perished in some complex dungeon.

[Sparkzlight]

Oh, are commoner vampires too OP? One of my players wants to play one.

[HowlingWolf]

You should consider allowing them to have two levels at the start of play, as the NPC classes are wildly weak. You could even use the 3.0 ranger, if you're doing an E6. By allowing 2nd level play at start, they will atleast survive....for a while. You may try encouraging multi-classing, and using various races to their utmost -- say an elven warrior as an archer, or a Halfling expert as an expert (thief).

[Lightlawbliss]

Oh, are commoner vampires too OP? One of my players wants to play one.

vampires have some rather serious drawbacks (a very small amount of running water is a major issue for a vampire) and are a +8 LA. I would read the vampire template carefully and decide if you really want to deal with the hassle. If you do, then I would ask your players if they are all ok with everything involved. If so, then It would likely be ok (assuming the group starts off powerful enough to be up there with the vamp).

[Yora]

A 1st level commoner vampire would cause quite a lot of complications if played alongside other 1st level characters. Technically, it would be a 9th level character, but with rediculously low hit points.

[Sparkzlight]

A 1st level commoner vampire would cause quite a lot of complications if played alongside other 1st level characters. Technically, it would be a 9th level character, but with rediculously low hit points.

Aah. So CR doesn't necessarily correspond with level?

Anyways, I might let the characters start at level 2.

[thorr-kan]

Anyways, I might let the characters start at level 2.

Nah, let'em suck it up and start at first level. That way they'll get the whole experience.

For the record: I think this would be a hoot.

[Yora]

A 1st level human commoner would have 1 Hit Dice, a Challenge Rating of 2, and an Effective Character Level of 8. That the ECL is four times the CR shows that the system breaks down when applying such a powerful template to such a low-level character.

If everyone would play an 8th level character and one player a 1st level commoner human vampire, the others would have 8 HD and the vampire still just 1 HH. And also just 3 hit points.

Pathfinder calculates it differently and simply uses the CR of a monster as an equal number of character levels. (Which many people think gets far better results than Level Adjustment in D&D). That way, a 1st level commoner human vampire could be played in a group of characters that are CR 1. Like characters with 2 levels in PC classes, or 3rd level in NPC classes.
Nut even then, having just 1 hit dice but +6 Strength, +4 Decterity, and +6 natural armor would make the character very strong, yet at the same time very fragile.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would suggest allowing the Tier 5 & 6 classes, namely:

Aristocrat
Commoner
Divine Mind
Warrior
CW Samurai
Truenamer
Battledancer (DC 26)
Eidolon (Gh 16)
Expert
Fighter (with no ACFs)
Healer (MH 8)
Knight
Lurk(CP 13)
Magewright (ECS 256)
Mariner (LotT 13)
Mlar (Polyhedron 159)
Monk (with no ACFs)
Ninja
Noble (DCS 50)
Paladin (with no ACFs)
Samurai
Soulborn (MoI 25)
Soulknife
Swashbuckler (CW 11)

That should get you roughly the same power level, with a bit of variation should they want it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
I would suggest allowing the Tier 5 & 6 classes, namely:
...
Mariner (LotT 13)
...

What book is this from? I don't recognize the abbreviation, and I don't think I've heard of this class before.



EDIT: For that matter, I'm not sure where Divine Mind comes from either.

[Fable Wright]

That should get you roughly the same power level, with a bit of variation should they want it.

The point, I believe, is that there isn't much variation at all. They're all supposed to have no class features, low HD, and customizable skill lists, and really, that should be enough. Between feats (Night Haunt + Deceptive Illumination/Fascinating Illumination for a sort-of Sorcerer, or Magical Training + Precocious Apprentice for a sort-of Wizard? Going into Fiendish/Fey Legacy for more powerful SLAs later) and skills (Iajutsu Focus Expert fencer, anyone? Or Bubs with Handle Animal?), you can have quite a lot of variation.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mariner is from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins.

[Roguenewb]

include Magewright from the Eberron Campaign Setting. Here's how it breaks down:

Adept: Useful spell list, delayed, but definitely the best here. Mix of offensive, control and healing spells.

Magewright: Your utility caster. Lots of the generic utility spells that can do small things.

Expert: Your skill user. Same chassis as the rogue, with none of the features.

Aristocrat: Far worse than expert in utility, better proficiencies. Probably irrelevant in optimized play of NPCs.

Warrior: Your bruiser, the only full BAB available, that probably makes it relevant.

Commoner: absolutely useless. There is no need for this. Unless you wanna go into survivor in this E6 campaign, and its allowed, this is the only reason to play commoner.

A warrior with decent feats is relevant, as is Adept and Magewright. Round it out with expert, and you can do most things a party needs to do. If you want a face rogue, Aristocrat *might* be relevant. It probably isn't though. Frankly, without trapfinding, Expert is barely relevant.

The perfect party is likely Warrior, Magewright, Adept, Adept. One adept prepares healing and buffs, and the other preps "aggressive" spells, like the SoDs and light damage oppurtunities. The last adept could be a second Warrior maybe, if one specs aggro, and the other area denial.

In terms of build decisions, anything that gets you reserve feats with more relevant abilities than the classes normally get is sweet. I don't think anyone can qualify for the summoning spam feat. But the little fire and acid one can work. If you can get a fire spell onto the list for magewright, you can do Prec. Apprentice and Fiery Burst, which is level one awesome. Martial study and Shape Soulmeld are gonna be awesome plays all around.

[137beth]

There is actually a published adventure intended for 1st-level npc-classed players. You can find it here (http://www.goodmangames.com/5100preview.html).


If you start at anything other than level 1, the aristocrat really loses in pretty much every way to the expert. The only thing it has over an expert is a d8 hit-die, compared to the expert's d6. However, it appears you want to use the aristocrat as the party face, which means it is going to be losing out to the expert's superior skill-points.

Other than that, the expert, warrior, and adept work decently together at low levels...
at high levels, though, be warned that the adept becomes a lot, lot better than the other npc classes, and even better than many PC classes. You don't seem to be looking for a high-level game, though, so this shouldn't be a huge issue.

[Ravens_cry]

I wouldn't mind it and it would be interesting to try. I wouldn't play it all the time, but I might play it, as long as the DM doesn't use it as an excuse to power trip. It's one thing to have to fight an enemy with guile and skill rather than sheer might, it's another to have your faced rubbed in your character's relative weakness compared to a more typical adventurer.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say that a Religious Adept can hold their own with a LOT of PC classes..

[Ravens_cry]

I would say that a Religious Adept can hold their own with a LOT of PC classes..
Yeah, but not everyone is going to be playing a spellcaster class.

[Roguenewb]

Yeah, but not everyone is going to be playing a spellcaster class.

In this instance, adept is the clear winner here. Its so much better than the other options. Warrior is vaguely relevant. So, Warrior and Adepts is optimized.

[Slipperychicken]

In this instance, adept is the clear winner here. Its so much better than the other options. Warrior is vaguely relevant. So, Warrior and Adepts is optimized.

Kind of defeats the purpose of NPC classes, since the point seems to be that the PCs aren't especially strong or... well, special. No superpowers, no secret techniques, just ordinary dudes trying to survive.



EDIT: Speaking of optimized, Expert + Iaijutsu Focus. Not as much damage as a Warrior with the power attack feats, but it's something, and you're still useful outside combat.

[Fable Wright]

EDIT: Speaking of optimized, Expert + Iaijutsu Focus. Not as much damage as a Warrior with the power attack feats, but it's something, and you're still useful outside combat.

Better: Expert + Iajutsu Focus + Knowledge Devotion (and Collector of Stories). More damage than a Warrior with the Power Attack Feats, and very useful outside of combat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Expert!

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814