How big of a deal is UMD?

[CyberThread]

How big of a deal would you say that UMD as a skill is, I know it was real big thing back in like 2004-2006, but have we found ways around it, so never talked about these days?

[JellyPooga]

I consider UMD to be one of the potentially most powerful skills going.

Having said that, it is very dependant on the GM and setting you're playing in. It's virtually useless in a Middle-Earth style Low-Magic/High-Fantasy game and practically a requirement for any non-spellcaster in something like Eberron which is Magic-Saturated.

[DeltaEmil]

It's the strongest skill in all of D&D 3.x, unless you're playing in a game where there's no magic items at all, save for some potions that everyone can use.

[Rabidmuskrat]

A command word sidesteps the necessity for UMD, but that is more applicable to the case where you have your own magic items created.

Still useful if you want your fighter to have access to some of the cooler effects.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you can reasonably get it it would be stupid not to take it. No other skill gives even half as much power and versatility. (Assuming a "standard" D&D world ofc)

[Curmudgeon]

Use Magic Device works with fixed DCs, and that alone puts it in the group of more reliable D&D skills. Once you've got a +19 UMD modifier, you know that you can reliably activate your (already identified) wands. And it has some pretty nifty characteristics that are hard to duplicate. Want to use a major artifact keyed to just one individual? UMD can do that.

[nedz]

It depends. A Cleric with the Magic domain would find it next to useless, but a mundane character might find it very useful.

[Flickerdart]

It depends. A Cleric with the Magic domain would find it next to useless, but a mundane character might find it very useful.
There are loads of things that UMD does beyond using cleric and wizard scrolls and wands.

[druidicforest]

On core, UMD is class skill only for two classes, Rogue and Bard, for others 19 ranks, without anything special would take 38 skill points and with CHA 10 that means +2 at level 1 and every second level +1 more.. which makes it very hard, ofcourse some items could boost this quite cheaply like 100*skill^2..

Is UMD really worth as Cross-class? Like for Fighter or Barbarian?

How about full spellcasters like Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer - should those take it to get access for other spells than their own.

How about take 10? should it work with UMD, if so then only 10 ranks would be enough to use any wand, item that provides +5 skill is only 2500GP - which is good item at WBL on level 5, where you could get as crossclass skills +4 which means with 12 CHA, and take 10 you get surely 20..

[Doug Lampert]

It's the strongest skill in all of D&D 3.x, unless you're playing in a game where there's no magic items at all, save for some potions that everyone can use.

RAW diplomacy is stronger. But there's a reason NO ONE in the entire history of D&D 3.x has ever been stupid enough to actually play with RAW diplomacy in a game where someone sane tried to optimize diplomacy.

It's bad on a level only PunPun beats.

But used as intended and with minimal optimization UMD is still very strong.

[Flickerdart]

On core, UMD is class skill only for two classes, Rogue and Bard, for others 19 ranks, without anything special would take 38 skill points and with CHA 10 that means +2 at level 1 and every second level +1 more.. which makes it very hard, ofcourse some items could boost this quite cheaply like 100*skill^2..

Is UMD really worth as Cross-class? Like for Fighter or Barbarian?

How about full spellcasters like Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer - should those take it to get access for other spells than their own.

How about take 10? should it work with UMD, if so then only 10 ranks would be enough to use any wand, item that provides +5 skill is only 2500GP - which is good item at WBL on level 5, where you could get as crossclass skills +4 which means with 12 CHA, and take 10 you get surely 20..
You're usually using this stuff in combat, so you can't expect to be able to take 10.

Even then, it's not terribly hard to get that magic 19. At level 20 you're looking at 11 ranks cross-class, maybe +2 from a +4 Charisma item that's dirt cheap at that level, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Circlet of Persuasion, and look that's 18 already without needing any custom items or an above average Charisma. You can splurge for a +6 item, or just suck it up.

At the high-end of optimization, battles between high-level noncasters essentially become "who can buy being a wizard better", so UMD is definitely very important.

[137beth]

At high levels (and epic) levels, a nonspellcaster can benefit from putting one rank into UMD (even cross-class), then picking up an item which boosts UMD, if custom items are allowed. Skill-boosting items are cheap, and can give a bonus of up to +30 on a nonepic item. Because of the flat DCs, that is as much as you will ever need (except for scrolls). If you can afford to invest more skill points in UMD, it just happens sooner. So at high levels, it is critical, but you don't need gargantuan modifiers on it.

At low levels, on the other hand, it is much less useful. Unless you are a CHA-based class with a bunch of bonuses, it will be hard to get any use out of it until several levels in. It is still great for sorcerers, who have a relatively easy time getting bonuses to UMD, use CHA, and have a significant need for wands.

So yes, it is quite easily the best skill in the game.

[druidicforest]

But since most of games are played from at levels 1 - 12 and UMD starts kicking in usually really later - it doesnt really be that good.. It may be good on paper, when comparing level 20 characters, but on actual play situation, hardly.. Maybe for Rogue it is still essential..

[sleepyphoenixx]

But since most of games are played from at levels 1 - 12 and UMD starts kicking in usually really later - it doesnt really be that good.. It may be good on paper, when comparing level 20 characters, but on actual play situation, hardly.. Maybe for Rogue it is still essential..

It depends entirely on how much resources you're willing to invest in it.
You can get a decent modifier quite early depending on books allowed and how much you're willing to spend in WBL and feats.

[JellyPooga]

It depends entirely on how much resources you're willing to invest in it.
You can get a decent modifier quite early depending on books allowed and how much you're willing to spend in WBL and feats.

This. Certain classes excel at it (Warlock, Bard), others are good (Rogue), but anyone can get a half-decent modifier at lower levels with a little application.

All you need is to hit 20 to use Wands. Any modifier of +10 or higher is giving you a decent chance of success. In combat, it can be a little risky spending your action using UMD, but out of combat there's nothing stopping you from trying over and over unless you roll a 1.

[druidicforest]

Yep of course you could make it, for rogue or bard, actually pretty easily, but for others not that easily, so it would be expensive..

Item prices are squared (+5 =2500, +6 = 3600, +7 = 4900), skill focus feat is fixed +3 - usually you don't want use other ability boosters than for your main stat... And Feats are usually expensive, since those would make possibility to get some nice things..

[Zombimode]

You're usually using this stuff in combat, so you can't expect to be able to take 10.

Even then, it's not terribly hard to get that magic 19. At level 20 you're looking at 11 ranks cross-class, maybe +2 from a +4 Charisma item that's dirt cheap at that level, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Circlet of Persuasion, and look that's 18 already without needing any custom items or an above average Charisma. You can splurge for a +6 item, or just suck it up.

At the high-end of optimization, battles between high-level noncasters essentially become "who can buy being a wizard better", so UMD is definitely very important.

Thats a whole lot of assumptions.

1st: level 20
Thats not a reasonable baseline for adjudicating the usefulness of something since the vast majority game-time is not spent at that level (if at all). Try level 6 to 12.

2nd: Charisma Item
Not every character has a free slot for an charisma item, and at more reasonable level ranges characters without a Cha focus probably won't have the money for it anyway.

3rd: masterwork tool
There is no UMD masterwork tool listed in the PHB, meaning it is up to the DM. You can't just assume it to be available.

4th: Circlet of Persuasion
Again, item slots and money are a concern.


Bottom line:
Outside of very high level play, cross-class UMD is NOT a universally useful investment.

[druidicforest]

+10 modifier is enough, outside combat, since take 10 rule...

EDIT: Totally agree all that Zombimode said +1 for everything :)

[JellyPooga]

+10 modifier is enough, outside combat, since take 10 rule...

EDIT: Totally agree all that Zombimode said +1 for everything :)

You can't take 10 with UMD, ever, unless you're a Warlock or Artificer

[Big Fau]

But since most of games are played from at levels 1 - 12 and UMD starts kicking in usually really later - it doesnt really be that good.. It may be good on paper, when comparing level 20 characters, but on actual play situation, hardly.. Maybe for Rogue it is still essential..

Personal experience with UMD says otherwise (the MiC really influenced that, since it made cheap wands and other magic items). In a Core-only environment your statement holds merit, but access to cheap magic items makes the skill an incredibly useful tool.

[nedz]

It depends. A Cleric with the Magic domain would find it next to useless, but a mundane character might find it very useful.There are loads of things that UMD does beyond using cleric and wizard scrolls and wands.

Perhaps, but if I can cast any cleric spell and use any wizard spell completion item then I think I have most bases covered.

[Lightlawbliss]

It all comes down to the situation. With one dm/world, it might be a god skill while with another it could be the worst skill in the game. low magic isn't the only way this could be. For example: a world where "on command" items are all people use to get magical effects, wands are never made and scrolls only exist for wizards to learn spells.

[IdleMuse]

3rd: masterwork tool
There is no UMD masterwork tool listed in the PHB, meaning it is up to the DM. You can't just assume it to be available.


"Tool, Masterwork" is listed in the PHB, and the only limitation is that it must be related to the skill in question. Assuming you can think up something, it's only as 'up to the DM' as anything else in the PHB, like Torches and Longswords.

I agree with your conclusion though!

[Chronos]

"Tool, Masterwork" is listed in the PHB, and the only limitation is that it must be related to the skill in question. Assuming you can think up something, it's only as 'up to the DM' as anything else in the PHB, like Torches and Longswords.
No, it's also subject to the limitation that it must exist. That entry just says that if a masterwork tool exists, that's probably about what it costs. It doesn't say that a masterwork tool exists for every skill, or even that it always costs exactly that much.

[Lightlawbliss]

this is dm specific, but "masterwork" wands, scrolls, exc. aka: items that are designed to be easier to use in umd.

[Curmudgeon]

No, it's also subject to the limitation that it must exist. That entry just says that if a masterwork tool exists, that's probably about what it costs.
There's no "if" involved.
Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). If you can define a skill job, there is a perfect tool for it. So, for the Jump skill, the rules define several jobs:

Long Jump
High Jump
Hop Up
Jumping Down
For each of these jobs, there is a perfect tool.

[Chronos]

That's from the SRD, which cuts down a lot of descriptions. The book is clearer.

Besides which, the SRD also lists a number of specific masterwork tools that cost more than that. Why do those exist, if there's also an item for those skills that only costs 50 GP?

[eggynack]

That's from the SRD, which cuts down a lot of descriptions. The book is clearer.

Besides which, the SRD also lists a number of specific masterwork tools that cost more than that. Why do those exist, if there's also an item for those skills that only costs 50 GP?
What about the actual book entry precludes the use of a masterwork tool of UMD? I don't know why they listed worse options and better options for a thing, but it's right there in the book. I don't see the problem.

[Lightlawbliss]

this been mentioned in the dysfunctional rules thread(s)?

[nedz]

this been mentioned in the dysfunctional rules thread(s)?

No, go for it — though this rule is normally interpreted as an opportunity for creativity; however: If it requires a house-rule then it's probably a dysfunction.

[Curmudgeon]

That's from the SRD, which cuts down a lot of descriptions. The book is clearer.

Besides which, the SRD also lists a number of specific masterwork tools that cost more than that. Why do those exist, if there's also an item for those skills that only costs 50 GP?
The full skill description actually specifies the answer.

Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Some examples of this sort of item from Table 7–8 include masterwork artisan’s tools, masterwork thieves’ tools, disguise kit, climber’s kit, healer’s kit, and masterwork musical instrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and a masterwork climber’s kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a Climb check. Thieves' Tools, Masterwork cost 100 gp, but give bonuses to two skills. Artisan's Tools, Masterwork cost exactly 50 gp more than regular Artisan's Tools. So really there are only a couple of exceptions to the standard pricing model for masterwork tools. If there's an existing tool for the job, you use it; a generic masterwork tool is available for all other jobs at the indicated price.

[Svata]

You can't take 10 with UMD, ever, unless you're a Warlock or Artificer

Or a rogue who put his rogue special ability into skill mastery and one of the things you mastered being UMD...

[Curmudgeon]

Or a rogue who put his rogue special ability into skill mastery and one of the things you mastered being UMD...
Sorry, not even then. Skill Mastery applies even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the Rogue from taking 10.
Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. That limitation isn't due to either stress or distractions.

[Svata]

As it says even if and not only if, I think its at least ambiguous. Anyone else have an opinion on it?

[Ravens_cry]

As it says even if and not only if, I think its at least ambiguous. Anyone else have an opinion on it?
There is no real answer.
It's definitely a case of "Ask your DM if Skill Mastery™ is Right for Your Character", said in the soothing tones of a pharmaceutical commercial.

[olentu]

As it says even if and not only if, I think its at least ambiguous. Anyone else have an opinion on it?

Eh, normally a character can take ten when not being threatened or distracted. Thus when not threatened or distracted skill mastery is the same as the normal rule, that being a character may choose to take 10. So whichever way is ruled on taking ten on UMD it should apply equally to both the normal case and the skill mastery case except when threatened or distracted.

Taking that into account I would have to say that skill mastery does not allow for a character to take 10 on UMD since I would say a character without skill mastery can not take 10 on UMD when not threatened or distracted.

[Svata]

Fair enough. Would make life easier though, and its not exactly like it would break the class or anything.

[DarkEternal]

It makes some differences, since if you roll a 1, you jam your wand for the next 24 hours. And trust me, that kind of thing happens. And most often with healing wands while you are neck deep inside of a dungeon with no other healing available.

[Curmudgeon]

It makes some differences, since if you roll a 1, you jam your wand for the next 24 hours.
Not necessarily. That only happens if you roll a natural 1 and fail to meet the DC. If a rolled 1 is enough for a successful check you have no problems at all.

[DarkEternal]

True, but you need to be a fairly high level for that(unless you invested heavily in said skill use)

[Gnaeus]

It is also party dependent.

If you are in a standard old school 4 person group, the wizard is going to get most of the wizard items, the cleric is going to get most of the cleric items. The rogue will still have some use for UMD, in case there is a duplicate or a wand of a druid spell or something, but he may not care enough to sink a lot of cash into it. Party member 4 probably needn't bother.

[Person_Man]

I've found it to be a moderately big deal for any Tier 3 or lower class. Having Wands with Swift Action spells is particularly useful for many non-Tome of Battle casters, who tend to lack useful Swift/Immediate Actions. Though it's worth mentioning that it's usually not that useful until ECL 6+, when you can afford useful magic items and reliably use UMD without failure.

[DarkEternal]

I also wondered about that. How do swift action spells function in wands as swift action spells? Activating a wand per rules(if I am correct) says that it's usually a standard action. I don't remember seeing anywhere that it's the same amount of time that you need to cast a spell.

Nerveskitter is a good example here, since if it can't be cast from a wand as an immediate action before initiative, it is a wasted wand.

[Gnaeus]

Rules compendium says activating a wand is the same action as the spell in the wand. Of course, not all games use rules compendium.

The rules about wands being standard actions was core, before swift action wands were a thing.

[Flickerdart]

I also wondered about that. How do swift action spells function in wands as swift action spells? Activating a wand per rules(if I am correct) says that it's usually a standard action. I don't remember seeing anywhere that it's the same amount of time that you need to cast a spell.

Nerveskitter is a good example here, since if it can't be cast from a wand as an immediate action before initiative, it is a wasted wand.
Rules Compendium changes this to the spell's normal casting time.

[Deophaun]

There's no "if" involved.
Yes, yes there is you. You quoted the "if" right in your post.

It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any).
You come up with the masterwork tool (masterwork spoon) and then you figure out what the related skill check is (+2 to eating soup). The door doesn't swing the other way on this one (The object gives a +2 to UMD, and then we handwave what, exactly, that object is).

Now, I can think up various tools that could apply to particular UMD checks (spectacles for +2 to activating scrolls, holders/gloves for +2 to activating wands, various relics/holy symbols for +2 to spoofing a particular alignment or class). But, the object needs to come first, and the application follows.

[Talionis]

UMD is very campaign dependent.

What tier characters are the party playing?
What level are you starting and ending at?
What is the world like is it high magic or little magic?
How does your DM, DM? Does he put you in a lot of situations that seem impossible for your character? UMD can probably fix that.

In E6, UMD isn't terribly useful. Casting is a lot less powerful and the need for casting isn't as high.

But if you want to play a high level Rogue with a bunch of Tier 2 and 1 characters then talk to Curmudgeon via PM he builds nasty Rogues that abuse UMD and wealth to stay on par with those Tier 1 and 2 characters. Even he will say it has it's limitations, but it does create a fun challenge where you can always stay relevant.

I've seen a guide with liberal use of UMD for Monks and it makes them much more playable. If you don't know Monks are universally the butt of many many jokes.

If you want to solo hard content, then UMD might be very very important. So the less characters and or casters in a party you might need UMD to overcome obstacles designed for casters to overcome or put you on par with other casters.

That being said, UMD isn't too important in most campaigns and parties. You'll have casters to do the casters job and possibly UMD might be important for someone to have in case the casters need healing.

UMD is designed to be the one thing that can help bring non-casters up to caster levels it just costs them an enormous amount in gold to do it. Even then you can't really replace a well optimized caster.

[nedz]

I've seen a guide with liberal use of UMD for Monks and it makes them much more playable. If you don't know Monks are universally the butt of many many jokes.

The Monk UMD handbook was notorious for being ill conceived — twas the butt on many jokes itself at the time.

[Big Fau]

I've seen a guide with liberal use of UMD for Monks and it makes them much more playable. If you don't know Monks are universally the butt of many many jokes.

As long as you remember that everything in that handbook regarding UMD can also be applied to a Commoner of equal level, that part of the guide is correct. The rest isn't, and let's not talk too much about it because it may summon the author and derail this thread for years to come.

Besides, Monkday was two days ago.

[Curmudgeon]

Rules Compendium changes this to the spell's normal casting time.
The new printing of the Dungeon Master's Guide, with errata, changes it back to the original standard action minimum activation. Note that Rules Compendium's claim to take precedence over everything only applies to "a preexisting core book or supplement", so you'd need to adopt RC's activation time change as a house rule.

[Flickerdart]

The new printing of the Dungeon Master's Guide, with errata, changes it back to the original standard action minimum activation. Note that Rules Compendium's claim to take precedence over everything only applies to "a preexisting core book or supplement", so you'd need to adopt RC's activation time change as a house rule.
I am reasonably certain that, errata or not, the DMG is still "preexisting".

[Infernalbargain]

The full skill description actually specifies the answer.


Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Some examples of this sort of item from Table 7–8 include masterwork artisan’s tools, masterwork thieves’ tools, disguise kit, climber’s kit, healer’s kit, and masterwork musical instrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and a masterwork climber’s kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a Climb check.

Indeed, the full description explicitly does not cover everything.

[Curmudgeon]

I am reasonably certain that, errata or not, the DMG is still "preexisting".
No, it's a new core book with a new (2012) copyright. See here (http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Dungeons-Dragons-Dungeon-Rulebooks/dp/0786962453/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372280948&sr=1-7&keywords=Dungeon+Master%27s+Guide).