My Vow of Poverty Fix

[qwertyu63]

This thread now contains two VoP fixes. If your DM is more open to homebrew, use the big one listed first. If your DM tries to stay close to first party content, use the small one at the end.

Vow of Poverty [General]:
You have sworn off material goods. In exchange you have found deeper insights to the universe.

Prerequisite: Any good alignment.

Benefits:
Each day, you can meditate (which takes 1 minute), gaining a number of vow points equal to your ECL (any points left over from the previous day are lost). These points can be spent to obtain a number of effects, which are listed below. Buying an effect is a swift action. All effects bought are lost when you meditate to gain your vow points (You may not have the same effect twice at the same time).
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Effects:
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Thought Armor (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain a +4 Armor bonus to your AC (This bonus doesn't apply to touch attacks). If you are at least ECL 6, the bonus is increased to +6. If you are at least ECL 12, the bonus is increased to +10. If you are at least ECL 18, the bonus is increased to +16.

Deflection (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain a +2 Deflection bonus to your AC (This bonus does apply to touch attacks). If you are at least ECL 6, the bonus is increased to +3. If you are at least ECL 12, the bonus is increased to +5. If you are at least ECL 18, the bonus is increased to +8.

Resistance (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain a +2 Resistance bonus to your saves. If you are at least ECL 6, the bonus is increased to +3. If you are at least ECL 12, the bonus is increased to +5. If you are at least ECL 18, the bonus is increased to +8.

Magical Strike (Su):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain a +1 Enhancement bonus on all attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon you wield functions as a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. If you are at least ECL 6, the bonus is increased to +2 and any weapon you wield is also treated as good aligned for DR. If you are at least ECL 12, the bonus is increased to +3 and is also treated as having the Holy enchantment and can ignore any DR that is ignored by alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. If you are at least ECL 18, the bonus is increased to +5 and is treated also treated as having the Holy enchantment, can ignore any DR that is ignored by alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron and can strike incorporeal or ethereal creatures as if they weren't incorporeal or ethereal. These effects also apply to natural weapons and unarmed strikes.

Endure Elements (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You become immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. You can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves (as described in the Dungeon Master's Guide). If you are at least ECL 6, you also get resistance 4 against cold and fire, which increases to resistance 8 at ECL 12. If you are at least ECL 18, this resistance is increased to immunity to cold and fire.

Sustenance (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You do not need to eat or drink. If you are at least ECL 6, you also do not need to sleep. If you are at least ECL 12, you also don't need to breathe. If you are at least ECL 18, you may, when buying this effect, revert in age to the beginning of the young adult age category. This is an actual drop in age, and removes all aging penalties/bonuses.

Fortification (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
When you are affected by a sneak attack or critical hit you have a 25% chance to negate the effect and take normal damage. If you are at least ECL 6, this chance increases to 50%. If you are at least ECL 12, this chance further increases to 75%. If you are at least ECL 18, this chance increases again to 100%.

Martial Prowess (Ex):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain the benefit of one of the following feats: Dodge, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Point Blank Shot or Combat Casting. You need not meet the prerequisites for the feat(s) chosen. If you are at least ECL 6, you instead gain the benefit of two of these feats. If you are at least ECL 12, you instead get the benefit of three of these feats and you may select one of the following feats instead: Mobility, Improved Feint or Cleave (If you select one of these feats, you must meet the feat prerequisite for it. You need not meet the others.) If you are at least ECL 18, you instead gain the benefit of four of these feats.

True Light (Su):
Cost: 1 vow point.
Your eyes glow beam forth a 20-foot cone of light. You and other creatures can see normally in the light. This light is suppressed in magical darkness, and you can choose to suppress it at will. If you are at least ECL 6, you also get low-light vision and darkvision out to 60’. If you are at least ECL 12, you also get blindsight out to 60’. If you are at least ECL 18, your cone of light dispels magical darkness with a spell level of 5th or lower.

Nature Tuned (Su):
Cost: 1 vow point.
You gain a +4 bonus on all Survival and Handle Animal checks. If you are at least ECL 6, you can also summon a common cat, rat or bat once per hour (the summoned creature lasts for 1 minute). If you are at least ECL 12, you can also speak with animals at will. If you are at least ECL 18, you may instead summon a common cat, rat or bat once per minute (the summoned creature lasts for 1 minute).

Thick Skin (Ex):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You gain damage reduction 5/magic. If you are at least ECL 6, the DR is increased to 5/magic and silver. If you are at least ECL 12, the DR is increased to 10/magic and silver. If you are at least ECL 18, the DR is increased to 20/magic and silver.

Spell Guard (Su):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You gain spell resistance 8+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 6, the SR is increased to 10+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 12, the SR is increased to 12+your ECL. If you are at least ECL 18, the SR is increased to 14+your ECL.

Inner Power (Ex):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You gain a +2 bonus to the ability score of your choice. If you are at least ECL 6, gain a +2 enhancement bonus to an additional ability score, and the previous ability's enhancement increases to +4. If you are at least ECL 12, gain a +2 enhancement bonus to a third ability score, and the previous enhancements increase to +4 and +6. If you are at least ECL 18, gain a +2 enhancement bonus to a fourth ability score, and the previous enhancements increase to +4, +6 and +8.

Mind's Peace (Su):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You gain immunity to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern your alignment. If you are at least ECL 6, you also receive the effect of a Protection from Evil spell. If you are at least ECL 12, you gain the effect of a Nondetection spell. If you are at least ECL 18, you also receive the effect of a Mind Blank spell.

True Sight (Su):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You can, at will, use detect magic, as the spell. If you are at least ECL 6, you also can, at will, use detect evil, as the spell. If you are at least ECL 12, you also can, at will, use true seeing, as the spell. If you are at least ECL 18, you can create the effect of the spell Foresight once per day, targeting only you (CL of your ECL).

Sky's Call (Su):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You gain a fly speed of 10 feet (clumsy maneuverability). If you are at least ECL 8, this increases to 20 feet (poor maneuverability). If you are at least ECL 12, this increases to 30 feet (good maneuverability). If you are at least ECL 18, this increases to 40 feet (perfect maneuverability).

Soul's Truth (Su):
Cost: 2 vow points.
You can make knowledge checks untrained, regardless of the DC. You gain a +2 bonus on all knowledge checks. If you are at least ECL 6, you can speak and understand the basics of another language (allowing you to ask and understand simple questions, explanations, and instructions) and the bonus on knowledge checks increases to +3. If you are at least ECL 12, you can also perform an augury once per hour with a 70% chance of success and the bonus on knowledge checks increases to +5. If you are at least ECL 18, you can create the effect of the spell Commune once per day (CL of your ECL).

Hands of Life (Su):
Cost: 3 vow points.
You can heal wounds (yours or those of others) by touch. You can heal a total of 10 hit points of damage per day. If you are at least ECL 6, the number of hit points you can heal per day increases to 20, and you can choose to spend 5 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison. If you are at least ECL 12, the number of hit points you can heal per day increases to 30 and you can choose to spend 3 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison or to spend 5 to cure blindness/deafness. If you are at least ECL 18, the number of hit points you can heal per day increases to 50 and you can choose to spend 1 points out of this pool to cure a disease or neutralize a poison, spend 3 to cure blindness/deafness or spend 5 to restore a missing limb.

Total Control (Ex):
Cost: 3 vow points.
You gain immunity to fear effects, along with attempts to stun you. If you are at least ECL 6, you also are immune to attempts to grapple you. If you are at least ECL 12, you also are immune to attempts to daze you. If you are at least ECL 18, you are also immune to any attempts to petrify or paralyze you.

Shifting Position (Su):
Cost: 3 vow points.
You benefit from a 20% miss chance due to your constant movement. If you are at least ECL 6, you can also dimension door 15' once per hour. If you are at least ECL 12, the miss chance increases to 40%. If you are at least ECL 18, you can create the effect of the spell Wind Walk once per day, targeting only you (CL of your ECL).

Planar Charm (Ex):
Cost: 3 vow points.
You gain a +3 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff skill checks. If you are at least ECL 6, you also gain the assistance of a lantern archron (this archron remains until you refresh your vow points, and is always the same archron). If you are at least ECL 12, your bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff skill checks increases to +5, and you can create the effect of a Charm Person spell once per hour. If you are at least ECL 18, your bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff skill checks increases to +9.----------------------------------------------
Special:
Must be taken at first level.

Special: (Restriction)
You must never own more than eight lasting possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, a simple non-masterwork weapon, and any two other non-magical items. Seven of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value. At any rate you can never own more than 120 GP worth of items nor may you own any magic item.

You are also permitted to own and carry any needed tools of your trade, as follows:

* If you have a divine casting class, you may own and carry a single simple wooden holy symbol in addition to the other items you are permitted.
* If you have a casting class that prepares their spells from a book, you may own and carry a single simple paperback book for your spells (this book has 100 pages and has a value of 5 gp regardless of the spells inside) in addition to the items you are permitted.
* If you have a class that provides spellcasting, you may own and carry a spell component pouch in addition to the other items you are permitted.
* If you have a class that grants trapfinding, you may own and carry a single set of non-masterwork thieves tools in addition to the other items you are permitted.
* If you have a base class with full base attack bonus progression, you may own and carry a single non-masterwork martial weapon in the place of the simple weapon you are permitted.
* If you have a base class that grants medium armor proficiency, you may own and wear a single set of non-masterwork leather armor or studded leather armor.
* If you are carrying a ranged weapon, you may carry up to 100 pieces of ammunition for that weapon.

None of these items contribute to the 120 gp limit.

If you are capable of casting spells with expensive material components, you may spend XP in the place of those components; you must spend 1 XP per 5 gp in the price of the component.

In addition, you are permitted to own and carry food and water for your survival. You are permitted to own and carry up to but no more than a week's food, and a single waterskin which may only be filled with water. The person can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. In any event, the amount of money you own and carry cannot exceed 5 gp. You cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. You are allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures.

If you willing violate the terms of this restriction, you lose the effects of this feat until you receive an atonement. Unwilling violations have no effect.----------------------------------------------

Use normal VoP but add these feats to the game.

Exalted Grace (Exalted):
Prerequisite: Any two Exalted feats
Benefit:You gain a flight speed of 40 feet (good maneuverability). This flight is supernatural.

Exalted Seal (Exalted):
Prerequisite: Any four Exalted feats, character level 15
Benefit:You are constantly shielded from mental assault and intrusion, as the spell Mind Blank.

In addition, change Ancestral Relic to be an Exalted feat. If a character with Vow of Poverty takes Ancestral Relic (or vice versa), you may have your relic without violating your Vow of Poverty.

[Hanuman]

I think this system is better than flat VoP, but it isn't a fix.

The idea behind VoP is that you replace your wealth with flat bonuses, making you not need that +3 breastplate to survive the next encounter.

Wealth actually isn't a flat gain, it's a curve, so if you want to replace items with a point system then the point system needs to be a relative curve.

Personally I haven't posted a VoP fix, but if I did it would go like this:

FEAT [Exalted]
After donating an item to the proper cause you gain a relative stat bonus based upon the item donated, you can change descriptors like from Fire to Cold or you may change spell effects from a 2nd level arcane (Sp) to another 2nd level arcane (Sp), but check with your DM.

Using this feat you may fill a magic item slot, if you donate a helmet you can get a helmet bonus.

Change armor AC to exalted armor or shield bonus, ect.




VoP = Take at level 1, you have those standard penalties of no wealth and can fill all your magic item slots as if you had FEAT for each one.

Throw in minor bonuses that don't stack, like sust. and the ability to be ok in harsh weather.

Bam, rough draft.

[anacalgion]

Alrighty, well I like what you've done here. This actually fixes at least a few of the issues with VoP. You could consider making it a swift action to buy the vow point things, so melees can still move and attack and all that stuff, but it looks good to me.

[qwertyu63]

Alrighty, well I like what you've done here. This actually fixes at least a few of the issues with VoP. You could consider making it a swift action to buy the vow point things, so melees can still move and attack and all that stuff, but it looks good to me.

Thank you. I've taken your advice and sped it up. I've also changed the ones that had variable costs, and flattened them out. A few new ones have been added, to bring in more effects from the list of necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). (there is a total of 30 vow points worth of stuff to get, in case anyone cares)

EDIT: I have also just added in a "tools of the trade" exception in the restriction so that more classes can take it.

EDIT 2: I have just added 2 more options, thus taking it to 20 options and 35 points.

EDIT 3: I have also noted if each ability is (Su) or (Ex).

[qwertyu63]

Arise thread.

I have expanded the given effects, adding in effects for ECL 18.

[Epsilon Rose]

And just when I was looking for a VoP replacement too. I guess I better throw my own 2 cents in as thanks.

There are three things I noticed.

Being limited to 10 pieces of ammo seems incredibly restrictive. If you go the multi-shot rout, that might not even be 3 rounds of shots. Even then, if you don't get all of your ammo back, and non-magical ammo has a pretty good chance of getting destroyed, you might not be able to contribute to the next fight.
You seem to be a bit light on options that support natural attacks/unarmed attacks and most combat maneuvers. You might want to include some feats or abilities that effect things like grappling, charging, disarming and tripping as well as something like the fanged ring.
Recently, it was brought to my attention that the restrictions on carrying items and using items can be pretty dissonant with the fluff for an exalted feat under certain circumstances. The two examples given were: if you're ally is injured/strength drained to the point where he can't carry his gear or bag of holding back to town, you can offer to help him by carrying, but not using, them for him; alternatively, if your ally is dying but owns an activated magic item that could stabilize or even heal him, you can't use it to save his life. In both of those scenarios, you are forced to follow the letter of the law, as it were, and act in a less than good manner, even though the actions you're prohibited from don't really have to do with you having wealth.



Beyond that, I think this is a good fix. The only other thing I can think of touches on number two. Aside from the knowledge and nature things, there really isn't much here to help you outside of physical combat, nothing to boost skills or social abilities, and even in combat it's mostly only defense and the most basic kind of attack. That said, I'm not sure how much a boost to those kinds of abilities is warranted.

[qwertyu63]

And just when I was looking for a VoP replacement too. I guess I better throw my own 2 cents in as thanks.

There are three things I noticed.

Being limited to 10 pieces of ammo seems incredibly restrictive. If you go the multi-shot rout, that might not even be 3 rounds of shots. Even then, if you don't get all of your ammo back, and non-magical ammo has a pretty good chance of getting destroyed, you might not be able to contribute to the next fight.
You seem to be a bit light on options that support natural attacks/unarmed attacks and most combat maneuvers. You might want to include some feats or abilities that effect things like grappling, charging, disarming and tripping as well as something like the fanged ring.
Recently, it was brought to my attention that the restrictions on carrying items and using items can be pretty dissonant with the fluff for an exalted feat under certain circumstances. The two examples given were: if you're ally is injured/strength drained to the point where he can't carry his gear or bag of holding back to town, you can offer to help him by carrying, but not using, them for him; alternatively, if your ally is dying but owns an activated magic item that could stabilize or even heal him, you can't use it to save his life. In both of those scenarios, you are forced to follow the letter of the law, as it were, and act in a less than good manner, even though the actions you're prohibited from don't really have to do with you having wealth.



Beyond that, I think this is a good fix. The only other thing I can think of touches on number two. Aside from the knowledge and nature things, there really isn't much here to help you outside of physical combat, nothing to boost skills or social abilities, and even in combat it's mostly only defense and the most basic kind of attack. That said, I'm not sure how much a boost to those kinds of abilities is warranted.

Hello. Always nice to hear from people. On to your points.

1: 10 shots was an arbitrary number. Increasing it would not be a problem, if I had a better number to change it to. (Edit: I upped it to 30 for the moment)
2: I would think you would fill that in with your class, but natural weapons is a point. I actually intend for the effects from Magical Strike to apply to natural weapons as well (just don't have the wording down yet).
3: Fair enough, I'll work on fixing that. (Edit: I now have a rough edit allowing these things, but it seems too inelegant, so more edits are on the way.)(Edit 2: I have pitched my first attempt at this. Still thinking.)

The overall goal here was to make effects that cover everything you would spend your WBL on. With the exception of masterwork skill items, most things with skills aren't in that department.

[Epsilon Rose]

1: 10 shots was an arbitrary number. Increasing it would not be a problem, if I had a better number to change it to. (Edit: I upped it to 30 for the moment)

With a full bab, rapid shot, and many shot that's about 3 rounds of firing. Given how long combat lasts, that's probably not to bad. Still, you might want to add a clause that says the ammo is treated as a magic throwing weapon for the purposes of retrieval. Otherwise, each arrow is only good for a single shot and the character will run out rather quickly at higher levels.


2: I would think you would fill that in with your class, but natural weapons is a point. I actually intend for the effects from Magical Strike to apply to natural weapons as well (just don't have the wording down yet).

Fair enough, though fanged ring gives more than just a +x to attack and damage. It gives improved unarmed combat and improved natural attack (which ups the die size by one category). Of course, that just brings up the whole subject of items that grant feats.


3: Fair enough, I'll work on fixing that. (Edit: I now have a rough edit
allowing these things, but it seems too inelegant, so more edits are on the way.)(Edit 2: I have pitched my first attempt at this. Still thinking.)

That's a fairly large problem with VoP in general, not just your fix. The only thing I can think of is to not use absolute terms or to have a clause about directly aiding other people using their wealth with their permission. I'm just not sure how to word that without making it abusable ("Here, use this +10 great sword, which I own, to help me kill these monsters, lest I die.")


The overall goal here was to make effects that cover everything you would spend your WBL on. With the exception of masterwork skill items, most things with skills aren't in that department.

That's a lofty, though rather nice, goal. The big things I see missing are items that give feats or items that give odd supernatural effects. It might be worth considering an option that gives you some incarnum ability (though I'm not entirely sure how you'd scale it, there are a lot of options), that could take care of a lot of miscellaneous effects.

Edit: Also, I just realized, what about creatures with dr or regeneration X, where x is a material (like iron or silver) or a damage type (like fire or acid)? If the party's fighting the fay and/or going after a werewolf, a normal character might be able to afford a a few different weapon types (especially if it's just arrow heads) or an appropriate enchantments, but a silver weapon or a cold iron weapon on it's own would be way outside a VoP character's price range.

[qwertyu63]

With a full bab, rapid shot, and many shot that's about 3 rounds of firing. Given how long combat lasts, that's probably not to bad. Still, you might want to add a clause that says the ammo is treated as a magic throwing weapon for the purposes of retrieval. Otherwise, each arrow is only good for a single shot and the character will run out rather quickly at higher levels.

Off looking for the wording on that.


Fair enough, though fanged ring gives more than just a +x to attack and damage. It gives improved unarmed combat and improved natural attack (which ups the die size by one category). Of course, that just brings up the whole subject of items that grant feats.

Honestly, I say if you want those feats, take those feats.


That's a fairly large problem with VoP in general, not just your fix. The only thing I can think of is to not use absolute terms or to have a clause about directly aiding other people using their wealth with their permission. I'm just not sure how to word that without making it abusable ("Here, use this +10 great sword, which I own, to help me kill these monsters, lest I die.")

I have an idea of something bouncing around in my head that would mean these "greater-good" exceptions still take away the powers, but for a predefined amount of time rather then until atoned.


That's a lofty, though rather nice, goal. The big things I see missing are items that give feats or items that give odd supernatural effects. It might be worth considering an option that gives you some incarnum ability (though I'm not entirely sure how you'd scale it, there are a lot of options), that could take care of a lot of miscellaneous effects.

I actually drew some inspiration from incarnum. It is what inspired the idea of Vow Points to start with. I've gone away since then, but I started there.

[Epsilon Rose]

Off looking for the wording on that.


They're from the weapon categories section of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons).
Edit: I just realized, how do you deal with incorporeal?

[qwertyu63]

They're from the weapon categories section of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons).
Edit: I just realized, how do you deal with incorporeal?

I just let them hit incorporeal. It comes online rather late, but until then it's on your party.

I also added in an ability to help in social encounters (and to get a pet lantern archron, because those guys are cute).

[Perseus]

Yeah a lot of this could just be added into a monk class and be pretty awesome.

Love it though.

[Agent 451]

I really like the idea of the spell component oil. However, limiting it to replacing 5000gp does negate the use of some of the more thematic spells that casters (particularly clerics) can use, such as resurrection and true resurrection.

[Epsilon Rose]

I just let them hit incorporeal. It comes online rather late, but until then it's on your party.

I'm not sure how good a solution that is. I can see quite a few DMs taking issue with letting a player default invalidate a defense like that. At least if it's an actual ability they have to nominally give something up to use it.

I know the DM of the game I'm currently playing in wouldn't let that fly (of course he also banned the fly and knowledge options as to overpowered :smallconfused:). We're currently level 5 and during our last session we fought a ghost who would have been a reasonable opponent, if any of us, other than the cleric, could have hit him. As it stands, if we fight any more ghosts, I'm not sure what I'd be doing, other than twiddling my thumbstentacles. At next level, I'll be able to make my attacks ghost touch, but I don't think most other melee classes would have as easy a time of it.

[TuggyNE]

Spell Guard should scale more smoothly; I suggest giving 9+ECL SR, upgrading to 11+ECL at 6, 13+ECL at 12, and 15+ECL at 18.


With a full bab, rapid shot, and many shot that's about 3 rounds of firing.

Rapid Shot and Many Shot aren't used together.

[qwertyu63]

Yeah a lot of this could just be added into a monk class and be pretty awesome.

Love it though.

Thank you.


I really like the idea of the spell component oil. However, limiting it to replacing 5000gp does negate the use of some of the more thematic spells that casters (particularly clerics) can use, such as resurrection and true resurrection.

I set the cap at 5000 gp because higher would cost more XP.


I'm not sure how good a solution that is. I can see quite a few DMs taking issue with letting a player default invalidate a defense like that. At least if it's an actual ability they have to nominally give something up to use it.

I know the DM of the game I'm currently playing in wouldn't let that fly (of course he also banned the fly and knowledge options as to overpowered :smallconfused:). We're currently level 5 and during our last session we fought a ghost who would have been a reasonable opponent, if any of us, other than the cleric, could have hit him. As it stands, if we fight any more ghosts, I'm not sure what I'd be doing, other than twiddling my thumbstentacles. At next level, I'll be able to make my attacks ghost touch, but I don't think most other melee classes would have as easy a time of it.

Ignoring it at level 18? Seems like that's not an issue.


Spell Guard should scale more smoothly; I suggest giving 9+ECL SR, upgrading to 11+ECL at 6, 13+ECL at 12, and 15+ECL at 18.

...no comment.

[Epsilon Rose]

Ignoring it at level 18? Seems like that's not an issue.



While I'd agree that giving them free bypassing at level 18 would be reasonable, that leaves a very large segment of the game where they're completely incapable of dealing with certain types of enemies. At least most normal characters can pickup a ghost touch crystal for 7000.

[qwertyu63]

While I'd agree that giving them free bypassing at level 18 would be reasonable, that leaves a very large segment of the game where they're completely incapable of dealing with certain types of enemies. At least most normal characters can pickup a ghost touch crystal for 7000.

That is when you OOC make sure some other part of the party can handle those. With something like this, there will always be something you can't do.

[TuggyNE]

...no comment.

In the current writeup, SR not only stays static for six levels at a time, but decreases relatively at each step, and since you tend to be facing casters with increasing relative CLs, it rapidly falls far behind. That makes it really awkward in a lot of ways and, except at low levels, not really worth bothering with.

[DracoDei]

All effects bought are lost when you meditate to gain your vow points. (Each benefit can only be selected once per day.)
This makes it sound like, depending on timing, you might not be able to select the same effect twice in a row.

Are you sure you didn't mean "more than once per time you reallocate your points"?

[~Corvus~]

This is very interesting. Meditate for what you might need every day. It sounds potentially more versatile than Drolyt's fix of Vow of Poverty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428), but it is substantially less powerful. I strongly suggest you read everything, especially the analysis section.

I definitely think you should make feats open to any and all feats, but every day you must meditate. Really, think about this! This would give SO many players flexibility in what they choose and can try out new ones without being tied down to their choices. If they don't like what they have...just choose new ones tomorrow. That can even be a testing ground for players to try out something that they might like and see what they like best.

[Epsilon Rose]

This is very interesting. Meditate for what you might need every day. It sounds potentially more versatile than Drolyt's fix of Vow of Poverty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428), but it is substantially less powerful. I strongly suggest you read everything, especially the analysis section.

I definitely think you should make feats open to any and all feats, but every day you must meditate. Really, think about this! This would give SO many players flexibility in what they choose and can try out new ones without being tied down to their choices. If they don't like what they have...just choose new ones tomorrow. That can even be a testing ground for players to try out something that they might like and see what they like best.

That's a good point. I basically wrote off the feats ability because none of them are all that useful to me, but if I could grab [aberrant] or [fighter] feats I'd definitely invest in it. Especially for the situational but fun things.

Of course, on the other hand, that will probably result in a big bump in the ability's power. How you balance that might be an issue.

[~Corvus~]

That's a good point. I basically wrote off the feats ability because none of them are all that useful to me, but if I could grab [aberrant] or [fighter] feats I'd definitely invest in it. Especially for the situational but fun things.

Of course, on the other hand, that will probably result in a big bump in the ability's power. How you balance that might be an issue.

The person selecting this feat won't get access to items or gold. That's an incredible sacrifice.

The only class that can really shrug off the VoP and the loss of item benefits from it at all times in the Druid, who has spells for what it won't cover, and the powers and Ability Enhancements apply even through Wildshape. Otherwise, taking on poverty is a substantial commitment.

[Zweisteine]

I'm not sure VoP really needed a fix, but this seems pretty interesting.

I didn't actually read through all the options in detail, so I have just this one thought to bring up.

The ammo. Sure, ammo has to be limited, and 15 seems to be reasonalble (at low levels, at least), but the bit about the ammo not breaking seems like a stretch. Even if you are getting magical abilities, your arrows are going to break.

Maybe allow them to craft their own ammunition and carry it (only a reasonable amount*, though they may not sell it (giving it away is fine). That would prevent the problem of ammunition, and keep things reasonable.


*20-60 is probably reasonable. The DM could say when it's too many. Reasonable amounts may depend on availability of materials to make more (you can carry more arrows if you're about to go on a trip through a woodless wasteland, etc.).

[Just to Browse]

It really did.

This is the best VoP fix I've seen on the boards yet.

[~Corvus~]

It really did.

This is the best VoP fix I've seen on the boards yet.

TBH I think Drolyt's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) is better at the moment, but this has lots of potential to be even cooler.