Detailed Level-by-level WBL vs VoP Comparison (Help welcomed)

[Bakkan]

This thread is an attempt to calculate the most efficient way to replicate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feats using items in order to gain an insight into how Iitems per Wealth by Level and Vow of Poverty compare level by level.

Basic assumptions for the current thought experiment. Feel free to disagree with them, and I am open to change if I hear a cogent argument. for whya different set of assumptions will serve the purpose better.

I am trying to replicate all the abilities given by Vow of Poverty as well as possible. Doing better is acceptable, doing worse is not. For instance, aan item that grants true seeing 3/day for 10 rounds each is not an acceptable replacement for the VoP character's True Seeing ability. However, an item granting mind blank would be an acceptable replacement for the VoP character's Mind Shielding ability.
I am discounting moderately to extremely situational benefits on either side. For instance, if I replicate the lack of a need to breathe in VoP with an Air Bottle, I do not count the ability to share it with companions a notable benefit. Similarly, I am not noting the benefit that at VoP character has in that his abilities are less susceptible to theft. Along these lines, I am mostly ignoring the advantage that (Ex) abilities have over (Su) or (Sp) abilities..
I am ignoring all non-mechanical concerns whatsoever. Backstory and concept are excellent reasons to either be voluntarily poor or a greedy miser, but are not the domain of this thought experiement.
The character in question has no weapon or armor proficiencies, no class features, no skill points, no party members, and no access to spellcasters for hire. I feel that this is the best way to compare pure Vow of Poverty to pure Wealth by Level.
Magic Item Compendium rules for combining items and adding common enhancements onto items are in effect. No other customization of items or creation of new ones is allowed.
All hardcover published D&D 3.5 sources are available, with the exception of Dragon compendium and alternate systems in Unearthed Arcana (not that I think they will likely be relevant).


In the following table I attempt to match the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat using items.

The Level column indicates the character level of the character.

The VoP Benefits column summarizes what the character would get if he took the Vow of Poverty feat at first level. The Items (Cost) column summarizes the items that the character purchases at that level. These two columns are cumulative except when one item iss being upgraded (such as +1 Armor becoming +2 Armor). The cost in gold pieces for the items purchases that level is given in parentheses afterward.

The Item Advantage column shows what the character would have if he bought the suggested items that he would not have if he took Vow of Poverty. The VoP Advantage column shows what the character would have if he took the Vow of Poverty feat that he would not have if he bought the recommended items. The goal of this experiment is to get this second column as empty as possible.

{table=head] Level | VoP Benefits | Items (Cost)| Total Cost | Item Advantage | VoP Advantage
1 | AC bonus +4, 1 Exalted feat | Armor (1100) | 1100 | +2 feats | +1 Ex. feat
2 | +1 Exalted feat | - | 1100 | +2 feats | +2 Ex. feats
3 | AC bonus +5, endure elements | +1 Armor, armor crystal (adaptation) (1300) | 2400 | +2 feats | +2 Ex. feats
4 | Exalted strike +1, +1 Ex. feat | +1 Weapon (2300)| 4700 | +2 feats | +3 Ex. feats
5 | Sustenance | Mundane rations (0)| 4700 | +2 feats | +3 Ex. feats
6 | AC bonus +6, deflection +1, +1 Ex. feat | Buckler, Ring of Protection (3015)| 7715 | +2 feats | +4 Ex. feats
7 | Resistance +1, ability enhancement +2 | Cloak of Resistance, Ability Enhancer (5000)| 12715 | +2 feats | +4 Ex. feats
8 | Natural armor +1, mind shielding, +1 Ex. feat | Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Mind Shielding (10000) | 22715 | +2 feats | +5 Ex. feats
9 | AC bonus +7 | +1 Buckler (1000) | 23715 | +2 feats | +5 Ex. feats
10 | Exalted strike +2 (good), DR 5/magic, +1 Ex. feat | +2 Weapon, weapon crystal (fiendslayer), Shroud of Scales (33000) | 56715 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity | +6 Ex. feats
11 | Ability enh. +4/+2 | Ability Enhancers (16000)| 72715 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity | +6 Ex. feats
12 | AC bonus +8, deflection +2, greater sustenance, +1 Ex. feat | +2 Armor, Ring of Protection +2, Bottle of Air (16250) | 88965 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, shared breath | +7 Ex. feats
13 | Resistance +2, energy resistance 5 | Cloak +2, Energy Resistance Item (23000) | 111965 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +7 Ex. feats
14 | Exalted strike +3, freedom of movement, +1 Ex. feat | +3 Weapon, ring of freedom of movement (50000) | 161965 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +8 Ex. feats
15 | AC bonus +9, Ability Enh. +6/+4/+2, DR 5/evil | +2 Buckler, Ability Enhancers, mantle of faith, -shroud of scales (91000) | 252965 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +8 Ex. feats
16 | Natural Armor +2, +1 Ex. feat | Amulet of Natural Armor (6000) | 258965 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +9 Ex. feats
17 | Exalted strike +4, resistance +3, regeneration | +4 Weapon, Cloak +3, Psychoactive Skin (80200) | 339165 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +9 Ex. feats
18 | AC bonus +10, deflection +3, true seeing, +1 Ex feat | +3 Armor, Ring of Protection +3, Mask (90000) | 429165 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +10 Ex. feats
19 | Ability Enh +8/+6/+4/+2, DR 10/evil | Ability Enh, Tome +2 (41500) | 470665 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +10 Ex. feats, DR +5/evil
20 | Exalted strike +5, energy resistance 15, +1 Ex. feat | +5 Weapon, Major Ring of Universal Energy Resistance with Mind Shielding, -Energy Resistance Item (82000) | 552665 | +2 feats, +1d6 evil outsider damage, dragon frightful presence immunity, +5 energy resistance | +11 Ex. feats, DR +5/evil
[/table]


Item Details in the Spoiler

In order of appearance:

Armor: We use a Mithral chain shirt since it has no armor check penalty and a high Max Dex bonus, meaning most characters will be able to use it effectively. For characters with arcane spell failure chance in light armor, make it thistledown and githcraft for another 850 gp. For characters with a Dex bonus below +4 and light armor proficiency, drop the mithral amterial for a savings of 1000 gp at 1st level and 850 gp from 3rd level on (since after that point you need masterwork armor). Armor enhancement bonus is increased at 3rd, 12th, and 18th levels.

Armor crystal (adaptation): Least Crystal of Adaptation (Magic Item Compendium 24).

Weapon: The precise wepaon we use doesn't matter much. We do assume that we are using a manufactured weapon primarily, as opposed to weaponlike spells or natural weapons. We buy a +1 weaon at level 4, and increase the enhancement bonus by 1 at 10th, 14th, 17th, and 20th levels.

Mundane Rations: What they sound like.

Buckler: A mithral buckler. We increase its enchantment at 9th and 15th levels.

Ring of Protection: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#protection). We improve it to +2 at 12th level aand +3 at 18th level. Since it is a common item effect, at higher levels we can add the deflection effect to one of the other two rings we will be using as per the Magic Item Compendium rules.

Cloak of Resistance: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofResistance). We improve it to +2 at 13th level and +3 at 17th level.

Ability Enhancers: The standard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gauntletsofOgrePower) ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltofGiantStrength) enhancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofDexterity) items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofHealth) found (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#headbandofIntellect) in the (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofWisdom) SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofCharisma). We have one +2 item at levels 7 and higher, an additional +4 item at levels 11 and higher, an additional +6 item at levels 15 and higher, and a second +6 item at levels 19 and higher (see also Tome, below).

Amulet of Natural Armor: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor). We improve its enhancement bonus to +2 at 16th level.

Weapon Crystal: Lesser Weapon Crystal (Magic Item Compendium 65)

Shroud of Scales: Magic Item Compendium 136. We do not use this after we hit level 15, since at that point we replace it with the mantle of faith (see below)

Bottle of Air: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir).

Energy Resistance Item: As per the Magic Item Compendium rules for adding common effects to existing items, we add energy resistance 5 to all five energy types to one of our appropriate items (for instance, the cloak of resistance). We drop these enhancements at level 20, when they are replaced with the major ring of energy resistance (see below).

Ring of Freedom of Movement: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).

Mantle of Faith: In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mantleofFaith). When we get it, it replaces the shroud of scales.

Skin: Psychoactive Skin of the Troll, from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheTroll). This is better than reeneration as long as the character's character level is less than 300.

Mask: Hathran Mask of True Seeing, Unapproachable East. (We would like a 3.5 version)

Tome: At 19th level, we use one of the +2 manuals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofBodilyHealth) or tomes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought) from the SRD.

Major Ring of Universal Energy Resistance: Magic Item Compendium 128. Since we're out of fingers we combine this with the ring of Mind Shielding for an additional 4000 gp surcharge.


Wealth by Level Comparison

Below is a measure of how much of one's Wealth by Level one needs to spend to purchase the items currently listed in the experiment.

{table=head] Level | % of WBL
2 | 122%
3 | 89%
4 | 87%
5 | 52%
6 | 59%
7 | 67%
8 | 84%
9 | 66%
10 | 116%
11 | 110%
12 | 101%
13 | 102%
14 | 108%
15 | 126%
16 | 100%
17 | 100%
18 | 98%
19 | 81%
20 | 73%
[/table]

Right now, the argument for WBL being able to replicate the Vow of Poverty benefits is not strong, since there are a lot of levels where the items we have break WBL and we haven't even accounted for all the VoP benefits yet. In fact the only levels at which WBL is obviously better than VoP is 3 and 4, since those are the levels at which replacing VoP takes less than WBL and the character doesn't yet get more bonus feats than he spent getting VoP.

What Needs to be Done Now


Look for cheaper ways of replicating the abilities that we currently have replacements for
Find replacements for (or as a last resort, fair market prices for) those abilities that are still in the "VoP Advantages" column, namely Bonus Exalted Feats, continuous true seeing effect, and DR 10/evil


Thanks for your assistance! I look forward to creating a useful resource for future dialogues.

Changelog:

06/26/13 - Replaced Everfull Mug and Everlasting Rations with mundane rations. Replaced Ring of Regeneration with Psyhoactive Skin of the Troll. Added Hathran Mask of True Seeing. Removed Hand of Glory.

[ryu]

The reason WBL is better than VoP isn't because VoP is easily replaceable by WBL. It's the simple fact that WBL is more versatile and can get much more valuable bonuses than trying to play copy-cat with a weak early level investment. For example: Featless flying for noncasters.

[Chronos]

There's also the fact that VoP ends up giving boosts to four different ability scores, and even relatively MAD classes seldom get any real value out of their fourth most important score, so you could drop that (and maybe the third or even second) with little actual impact.

[Karnith]

I believe that a Psychoactive Skin of the Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheTroll) is going to be leagues better than a VoP character's regeneration ability (300 hp healed per hour vs. character level hp per hour), and is about 30,000 gp cheaper than a Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration) (61,200 gp v. 90,000 gp).

A Hathran Mask of True Seeing (from Unapproachable East; technically 3.0?) costs 75,000 gold, and provides a continuous True Seeing effect on the face/eyes item slot.

EDIT: As to the analysis, I am worried that the overpriced nature of some items replicating VoP benefits is going to skew the results. A Shroud of Scales may be the cheapest way of getting DR 5/Magic, for example, but I don't consider that to be a particularly worthwhile expenditure of funds, given how weak DR/magic is by 10th level. And that's really all that seems to be keeping VoP ahead of WBL in levels 10-14. So while saying that a VoP character has an advantage in virtual WBL across those levels is technically accurate, it is also misleading, in my opinion. Granted, this also doesn't take the bonus feats into account.

[Invader]

Well right off the bat you're picking exceptional armor for first level. Youre replicating AC 4 so 2 points:

1. Plain old chain shirt is AC +4 max dex +4, very few players have more than a plus 4 dex bonus so payinf for more is wasted money. Granted you do have the -2 armor check penalty but thats hardly worth paying another 1000gp to negate.

2. No sane caster is going to pay almost 2000gp for armor when they can cast mage armor, protection from X, shield of faith etc.

[Lans]

Well right off the bat you're picking exceptional armor for first level. Youre replicating AC 4 so 2 points:

1. Plain old chain shirt is AC +4 max dex +4, very few players have more than a plus 4 dex bonus so payinf for more is wasted money. Granted you do have the -2 armor check penalty but thats hardly worth paying another 1000gp to negate.

2. No sane caster is going to pay almost 2000gp for armor when they can cast mage armor, protection from X, shield of faith etc.

1 You could add in the price of a few masterwork skill items to negate the -2, a few classes get heavy use out of it, monks.

2. Its entirely possible the sorcerer didn't take mage armor as a slot

[eggynack]

Couldn't we just replace the everflowing mug and the everlasting rations with nothing? I don't really see many advantages those have over just carrying some food around, or just attempting the DC 10 survival check to forage everyday. If you really need to, you could possibly pick up a masterwork tool of survival for a +2, but you could probably just carry around a backpack of ham sandwiches, and pay next to nothing. I don't see the point in replicating abilities that are pointless, especially if the thing you're using to replicate it only really helps in situations where you don't have a readily available supply of ham sandwiches anyways.

[danzibr]

This is very interesting for what it is. It's already been said, but the real weakness of VoP is its lack of versatility. Taking it to the extremes, if VoP somehow gave the benefit of a +100 weapon at level 20 and nothing else it'd be ridiculously over WBL but almost nobody would take it due to the terrible lack of versatility.

[eggynack]

This is very interesting for what it is. It's already been said, but the real weakness of VoP is its lack of versatility. Taking it to the extremes, if VoP somehow gave the benefit of a +100 weapon at level 20 and nothing else it'd be ridiculously over WBL but almost nobody would take it due to the terrible lack of versatility.
I agree. It works as a thought experiment, and really nothing more. All you really need as proof is to run the test the other way. Kit out a character with what you're likely to give them, and see how much of that VoP approximates. I'm not saying that VoP has to mimic the effects of every item in the game, but most optimized characters are going to be picking up a belt of battle and a flight item at some point, and VoP doesn't even come close.

[avr]

VoP usually seems to come up in conjunction with monks. As such, the weapon cost could be replaced with the cost of a casting of greater magic fang and a casting of permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).

This costs (10 GP*spell level 1*caster level 1) for magic fang & (10 GP*spell level 5*caster level 9 + 5 GP/XP*500 XP) = 2960 GP for +1, so no advantage there. Similarly greater magic fang for +2 doesn't help. But the cost of a +3 bonus is 8410 GP, a +4 is 8530 GP, and a +5 is 8650 GP.

This assumes that you can find a sufficiently high level druid (character level 4*enhancement bonus) and a 11th level wizard willing to cast permanency for gold of course.

[Lans]

VOP seems like a great choice for npcs

[Rubik]

I wonder how many optimizers with decent system mastery would take Vow of Poverty if all it gave, at level 20, was +100 to attack and damage, +100 to AC, and +100 to saves, it scaled by +5 each level, the same bonus exalted feats as now, and it had the same restrictions as it already does. Granted, those are nice numbers, but it means there's so much you just can't do.

[ryu]

I think you could at least make one hell of an ubercharger with that.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder how many optimizers with decent system mastery would take Vow of Poverty if all it gave, at level 20, was +100 to attack and damage, +100 to AC, and +100 to saves, it scaled by +5 each level, the same bonus exalted feats as now, and it had the same restrictions as it already does. Granted, those are nice numbers, but it means there's so much you just can't do.

Because the Druid needed to be more awesome. "Where we are going, we don't need roads magic items."

Thrall of Juiblex with its at-will polymorph and summoning would also be cool with this.

[Emperor Tippy]

I wonder how many optimizers with decent system mastery would take Vow of Poverty if all it gave, at level 20, was +100 to attack and damage, +100 to AC, and +100 to saves, it scaled by +5 each level, the same bonus exalted feats as now, and it had the same restrictions as it already does. Granted, those are nice numbers, but it means there's so much you just can't do.

Sure, on a Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Ur-Priest 10. :smallwink:

Maybe even on a Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 10.

[Aharon]

I wonder how many optimizers with decent system mastery would take Vow of Poverty if all it gave, at level 20, was +100 to attack and damage, +100 to AC, and +100 to saves, it scaled by +5 each level, the same bonus exalted feats as now, and it had the same restrictions as it already does. Granted, those are nice numbers, but it means there's so much you just can't do.

On a non-caster? no. On a caster? Hell yes, I don't need to buff myself anymore and can spend all my spell slots on battlefield control, buffing allies and situational spells.

The number size is relevant - even with decent non-TO optimization, Douglas had trouble reaching those numbers with Team Solar - and his melee guys optimized for numbers.

The lack of immunities might be a problem, but can be solved if you use a decent base race and maybe a few of these body parts that cost money, but are part of you afterwards (before taking VoP, of course).

[Rubik]

Because the Druid needed to be more awesome. "Where we are going, we don't need roads magic items."Yes, but you could cut off both of a druid's arms and legs and still have him be awesome.


Thrall of Juiblex with its at-will polymorph and summoning would also be cool with this.As with druids, they're basically always that way. Though I'm fairly sure you can't be Good with that one, much like Emperor_Tippy's ur-priest/assassin.

[Emperor Tippy]

As with druids, they're basically always that way. Though I'm fairly sure you can't be Good with that one, much like Emperor_Tippy's ur-priest/assassin.

Ur-Priest (and necropolitian) don't require being evil (or bar being good) to maintain class features. And Avenger is an assassin without the must be evil requirement.

[Bakkan]

The reason WBL is better than VoP isn't because VoP is easily replaceable by WBL. It's the simple fact that WBL is more versatile and can get much more valuable bonuses than trying to play copy-cat with a weak early level investment. For example: Featless flying for noncasters.

You'll get no argument from me. I'm not trying to definitively prove that one is bettter than the other, I'm trying to see how much money it taks to beat Vow of Poverty at its own game using just items.


There's also the fact that VoP ends up giving boosts to four different ability scores, and even relatively MAD classes seldom get any real value out of their fourth most important score, so you could drop that (and maybe the third or even second) with little actual impact.

Even most casters get benefit out of bonuses to a mental stat, Constitution, and Dexterity. The fourth one is the only one that I can see ever being really superfluous, and it only adds 4000 gp to the total, and only at high levels. Furthrmore, to leave it out would be to leave something in the "VoP Advantages" colummn that we don't need to, which is my primary goal.


I believe that a Psychoactive Skin of the Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheTroll) is going to be leagues better than a VoP character's regeneration ability (300 hp healed per hour vs. character level hp per hour), and is about 30,000 gp cheaper than a Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration) (61,200 gp v. 90,000 gp).

A Hathran Mask of True Seeing (from Unapproachable East; technically 3.0?) costs 75,000 gold, and provides a continuous True Seeing effect on the face/eyes item slot.

Excellent find on the Skin, I will update that. I will also add the mask until and unless we find a published 3.5 item that does it. Do you have a page number from UE for that mask?



EDIT: As to the analysis, I am worried that the overpriced nature of some items replicating VoP benefits is going to skew the results. A Shroud of Scales may be the cheapest way of getting DR 5/Magic, for example, but I don't consider that to be a particularly worthwhile expenditure of funds, given how weak DR/magic is by 10th level. And that's really all that seems to be keeping VoP ahead of WBL in levels 10-14. So while saying that a VoP character has an advantage in virtual WBL across those levels is technically accurate, it is also misleading, in my opinion. Granted, this also doesn't take the bonus feats into account.
I agree t hat many magic items seem overpriced. However, at low to mid levels of optimization DR 5 can still be relevant at mid levels. For instance, a CR 10 Juvenile Red Dragon's bite only does 2d6+9 damage, and it has a lot of attacks, which is where DR is most valuable. I would prefer to find a better source of DR than Shroud of Scales specifically because it costs a lot for the level you get it at.


Well right off the bat you're picking exceptional armor for first level. Youre replicating AC 4 so 2 points:

1. Plain old chain shirt is AC +4 max dex +4, very few players have more than a plus 4 dex bonus so payinf for more is wasted money. Granted you do have the -2 armor check penalty but thats hardly worth paying another 1000gp to negate.

2. No sane caster is going to pay almost 2000gp for armor when they can cast mage armor, protection from X, shield of faith etc.
1. Surely negating a -2 penalty ion all attacks is worth 1000 gp?
2. I am not assuming this character has access to any casting whatsoever.


Couldn't we just replace the everflowing mug and the everlasting rations with nothing? I don't really see many advantages those have over just carrying some food around, or just attempting the DC 10 survival check to forage everyday. If you really need to, you could possibly pick up a masterwork tool of survival for a +2, but you could probably just carry around a backpack of ham sandwiches, and pay next to nothing. I don't see the point in replicating abilities that are pointless, especially if the thing you're using to replicate it only really helps in situations where you don't have a readily available supply of ham sandwiches anyways.
That's a very good point. I'll repace the magic food with mundane food, since as you say, the situations in which the one is superior to the other are few and far beteween.


This is very interesting for what it is. It's already been said, but the real weakness of VoP is its lack of versatility.
Thank you, interesting is what I'm going for. The only way this thread is going to provide an ironclad answer to the "which is better" debate is if we can find a way to replicate every single ability with less than Wealth by Level. I dougbt that will happen, mostly because of the Exalted feats, which while generally accepted to be mostly underwhelming, are difficult to find ways of replicating.


VoP usually seems to come up in conjunction with monks. As such, the weapon cost could be replaced with the cost of a casting of greater magic fang and a casting of permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).

This costs (10 GP*spell level 1*caster level 1) for magic fang & (10 GP*spell level 5*caster level 9 + 5 GP/XP*500 XP) = 2960 GP for +1, so no advantage there. Similarly greater magic fang for +2 doesn't help. But the cost of a +3 bonus is 8410 GP, a +4 is 8530 GP, and a +5 is 8650 GP.

This assumes that you can find a sufficiently high level druid (character level 4*enhancement bonus) and a 11th level wizard willing to cast permanency for gold of course.
I am not assuming the character in question is any particular class, though I am making the possibly too strong assumption that he is using a manufactured weapon as his primary attack. Additionally, I am assuming he has no access to spellcasters for hire.


VOP seems like a great choice for npcs
Indeed. It allows the DM to provide humanoid opponents without the group's wealth shooting up beyond all reason after killing one.

[TuggyNE]

I would recommend dividing the WBL side into two components: one that takes a rather looser approach to meeting the benchmarks (ignoring DR 5/magic, getting AC bonuses of slightly different types that add up to the same AC/ff/touch numbers, and maybe even juggling ability score enhancements), and another that's much stricter (about like what you have). That should give a fuller idea of what's going on.

Or, put another way, you have crucial stuff, useful stuff, and irrelevant stuff. Make sure both sides are evaluated based on crucial stuff, and ignore irrelevant stuff, but it's useful to have a comparison of at least two different WBL approaches to the merely useful stuff.

Also, eventually, I suggest stuffing miscellaneous gadgets from one of the lists of stuff into the gaps left over at various levels that WBL is ahead.

[Karnith]

Do you have a page number from UE for that mask?
I believe that it is on page 57.

I also second Tuggyne's suggestion, time and effort permitting.

[J-H]

After reading this, I took a look through BOED... and wow, I don't know how any build is going to be able to get much use out of that many Exalted feats. Most of them are very, very build-specific.

[Invader]

Why are you taking a -2 on attacks while you're in armor?

[Bakkan]

Why are you taking a -2 on attacks while you're in armor?

Because you're not proficient with it and you have a -2 armor check penalty from the armor.

[Invader]

Because you're not proficient with it and you have a -2 armor check penalty from the armor.

Why on earth would you buy armor you're not proficient with :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

Why on earth would you buy armor you're not proficient with :smallconfused:It'd have to be light armor, since literally every class in the game except monk, sorcerer, and wizard gains Armor Proficiency (Light) as a bonus feat.

[eggynack]

It'd have to be light armor, since literally every class in the game except monk, sorcerer, and wizard gains Armor Proficiency (Light) as a bonus feat.
Additionally, we can't really use a wizard or sorcerer, because the answer to a lot of these questions is "Be a wizard or sorcerer". We could always go with a commoner base, but I don't think that's indicative of real gameplay. On average, any given class is going to have light armor proficiency, so it might be better to evaluate with that in mind.

[Rubik]

Additionally, we can't really use a wizard or sorcerer, because the answer to a lot of these questions is "Be a wizard or sorcerer". We could always go with a commoner base, but I don't think that's indicative of real gameplay. On average, any given class is going to have light armor proficiency, so it might be better to evaluate with that in mind.Actually, I wasn't kidding when I said "literally." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight)

[eggynack]

Actually, I wasn't kidding when I said "literally." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight)
Huh. That is an odd thing. I figured that that was indicating what was already there, that classes with light armor proficiency have light armor proficiency, but I guess that by RAW, every class in the game apart from those three get free light armor bonus feat action. Weird.

[Rubik]

Huh. That is an odd thing. I figured that that was indicating what was already there, that classes with light armor proficiency have light armor proficiency, but I guess that by RAW, every class in the game apart from those three get free light armor bonus feat action. Weird.And fighter, paladin, and cleric get all of the armor feats as bonus feats, along with tower shield proficiency for fighters and all the medium armor classes (like bard and druid) get the medium one.

Too bad that nothing but light armor applies to the psychic warrior, else I'd have more bonus feats to DCFS out on my monk build.

[edit] Though it appears I missed Shield Proficiency for both fighter and cleric. Oh well.

[ericgrau]

I wonder how many optimizers with decent system mastery would take Vow of Poverty if all it gave, at level 20, was +100 to attack and damage, +100 to AC, and +100 to saves, it scaled by +5 each level, the same bonus exalted feats as now, and it had the same restrictions as it already does. Granted, those are nice numbers, but it means there's so much you just can't do.

On a non-caster? no. On a caster? Hell yes, I don't need to buff myself anymore and can spend all my spell slots on battlefield control, buffing allies and situational spells.

The number size is relevant - even with decent non-TO optimization, Douglas had trouble reaching those numbers with Team Solar - and his melee guys optimized for numbers.

The lack of immunities might be a problem, but can be solved if you use a decent base race and maybe a few of these body parts that cost money, but are part of you afterwards (before taking VoP, of course).
Could also work very well on a non-caster in a caster heavy party. "Benign transposition my familiar with the party bomb. He full attacks, then we easily clean up the straggler, next fight please." Etc. Or it could work well in most parties really.

I think parties are something TO tends to overlook. VoP needs to do more than just break even with WBL, but with allies any advantage beyond that can be exploited while any disadvantage worked around.

[Rubik]

I think parties are something TO tends to overlook. VoP needs to do more than just break even with WBL, but with allies any advantage beyond that can be exploited while any disadvantage worked around.VoP (along with a number of other exalted feats) is more than just a bit of an inconvenience for a standard issue party. Basically, players of many exalted characters force everyone else to build around them and cause a great many potential problems with interplayer conflict that really should not happen.

There's more than one reason why BoED is a terrible book.

[Pickford]

Bakkan:

1) I don't think there are enough exalted feats for any character to deliberately exclude the ones that grant extra damage vs evil and evil outsiders...so that should probably be taken into account, essentially negating the advantage in the item column. (Feel free to do a head-count on viable feats for any given class, but from mine it comes pretty close to the wire)

2) shroud of scales is providing the immunity to dragon fear...but that is removed at level 15...what is maintaining the immunity past that point?

If we were to codify the 'best' set of exalted feats for:

A caster, and a melee, a mixed bag, it would help to define what abilities must be obtained.

edit:
3) This comparison makes it occur to me that a VoP Monk/Sorc/Enlightened Fist who used Mordenkainen's Disjunction like candy would be...a difficult opponent.

[Venusaur]

3) This comparison makes it occur to me that a VoP Monk/Sorc/Enlightened Fist who used Mordenkainen's Disjunction like candy would be...a difficult opponent.

Well, you can't cast Disjunction unless you leave Enlightened Fist early, as it loses 2 CL, and the monk level means you lose a third.

It also doesn't really look like the monk levels contribute very much. Why not just a Sorcerer?

[Rubik]

Well, you can't cast Disjunction unless you leave Enlightened Fist early, as it loses 2 CL, and the monk level means you lose a third.

It also doesn't really look like the monk levels contribute very much. Why not just a Sorcerer?IT'S M.A.D., I TELL YOU! M.A.D.!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[eggynack]

3) This comparison makes it occur to me that a VoP Monk/Sorc/Enlightened Fist who used Mordenkainen's Disjunction like candy would be...a difficult opponent.
Wow. A character with access to 9th level spells might be powerful? I never would have guessed. I also can't think of any way to access them, without using monks and VoP. Truly my world view has been altered by this revelation.

[Augmental]

Wow. A character with access to 9th level spells might be powerful? I never would have guessed. I also can't think of any way to access them, without using monks and VoP. Truly my world view has been altered by this revelation.

Then again, most characters with 9th level spells risk destroying their own items with Disjunction. A character with Vow of Poverty gets around that problem by not having magic items to be destroyed.

[Darth Stabber]

If you make VoP a trait as opposed to a feat, it would be a worthy consideration for non-mundanes to simplify. Others have made this point before, maybe even in this thread (I kinda skimmed it), but it bears repeating as a generally good idea, it's still not good if it doesn't cost you feats, but at least then it cuts out one way in which it hurts you. Trying to buy items to mimic VoP is VERY deceptive, as no one is going to buy that paricular set of effects exactly, thus breaking the validity of any comparison. Magic weapon properties alone mean that the comparison is useless, since the vow gives you highly specific annd situational ones as opposed to more generally useful (like wounding or collision), I'd take collision over all the "weapon enhancement" stand-ins the feat gives.

That being said it has it's uses. If your GM doesn't understand the importance of wbl and runs a "low magic" game it can give you an edge (and I can admit without shame that I have done this in the past). And it saves you the headache of trying to ensure that you have the right items when item acquisition is impaired in other ways (like when GMs consider dropping any items that are useful to the party to be "magicmart", like that is such a horrible thing). And it saves ppaperwork. I have taken it on a druid before (and would do so again), just to cut down on the massive amount of paperwork that class creates, but only if I know the GM isn't going to go ultra literal with it. I wouldn't dream of doing it with anything other than druid, totemist, or incarnate, for a number of very important reasons. And given that the feat is a really annoying straightjacket in the first place, I would not enforce the alignment requirement as a GM. I can pick much better equipment (spell completion items leap to mind immediately), but there is something nice about eschewing all that math and bookkeeping. That is the entire value of VoP, it's a half*** shorthand for the usual collection of toys, but the half*** is the key to remember. The reason for druid, totemist, and incarnate is because they are three classes that have class features that complicate item use, druid's wildshape renders most of you slotted items moot, unless you invest in a pallet wilding clasps. Totemist and incarnate's chakra binds turn off items slots unless you want to add a weird ability to all the items likely to be interfered with (which also pretty much requires that you or a party member custom makes them), and if you don't want to go through that you are still going to be paying a few fees for nonstandard effect slotting (where am I going to find goggles of strength?). Non-druid full casters can use it in theory, but given the number of amazing spells that rely on expensive material components, you are going to be paying xp out the nose, and eschewing the always handy spell completion items. Psionics can work better since it never has expensive components, but you are still missing out on serious value. The divisive but effective ToB classes lose out in the miracle that is magic item properties (and to a lesser extent armor properties), same story for every non-primary caster. Binders might work, but unlike Incarnum classes they have no difficulty with magic items, so it becomes the same question of value. Monk (the class most thematically associated with the feat) needs the power of items more than most classes, since they already have a menagerie of weird non-synergistic abilities, and those abilities already fail to meet the needs of an adventurer, no sense taking away best way to acquire those needs.

I guess the best way to analog this is like an overpriced all-inclusive vacation, you get some fun stuff, but you get what the vacation planner included, whether you wanted something different or not (and you paid too much).

[eggynack]

Then again, most characters with 9th level spells risk destroying their own items with Disjunction. A character with Vow of Poverty gets around that problem by not having magic items to be destroyed.
My point is that you have 9th level spells in general. No one really cares about how you break the game at that point, because anyone with system mastery can pull it off. Who needs disjunction when you have gate, shape change, and wish?

[Darth Stabber]

Then again, most characters with 9th level spells risk destroying their own items with Disjunction. A character with Vow of Poverty gets around that problem by not having magic items to be destroyed.

Disjunction means smaller donations to your charity of choice, do you want orphan's to starve because you couldn't hold it back like every other adventurer?

[Rubik]

My point is that you have 9th level spells in general. No one really cares about how you break the game at that point, because anyone with system mastery can pull it off. Who needs disjunction when you have gate, shape change, and wish?Plus think about all the +3 vorpal long swords and +1 brilliant energy assassin's blades those poor orphans are missing out on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then again, most characters with 9th level spells risk destroying their own items with Disjunction. A character with Vow of Poverty gets around that problem by not having magic items to be destroyed.

The caster's worn and carried items are explicitly excluded from the disjunction effect. Still strips away all of his buffs and any debuffs on him though.

[TuggyNE]

The caster's worn and carried items are explicitly excluded from the disjunction effect. Still strips away all of his buffs and any debuffs on him though.

Hmm. Do buff spells count as something you "carry"? :smallamused: If so, grammatically spells on your person are also excluded by that clause.

[Augmental]

Hmm. Do buff spells count as something you "carry"? :smallamused: If so, grammatically spells on your person are also excluded by that clause.

Maybe if they're also items, but I don't think so otherwise.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm. Do buff spells count as something you "carry"? :smallamused: If so, grammatically spells on your person are also excluded by that clause.

It's, as I suspect you're already aware, too vague for a definitive RAW answer.

Ask your DM.

[TuggyNE]

It's, as I suspect you're already aware, too vague for a definitive RAW answer.

Ask your DM.

But wait! We can solve this! To the dictionary-mobile!

… nah, just kidding, that wouldn't do any good at all.

[Talya]

You can't use a buckler to cheapen the exalted armor bonus. You could, however, use a masterwork dastana.

The type of bonus makes a difference. The exalted bonus doesn't stack with armor bonuses to armor class, but it does stack with shield bonus. That means there are spells and such which stack fine with the exalted armor bonus but wouldn't with your buckler.

In the end, a +5 Mithral Chain Shirt and a Masterwork Dastana serves your purpose just fine.

Likewise, i'm not comfortable modeling the +8 ability bonus on an inherent bonus, because contrary to what most people assume, VOP characters will get those inherent bonuses just as easily as party members. I don't actually assume those tomes will be available to anyone in any given campaign, but if they are, the VOP character will have ways of getting that bonus.

That said, taking an epic item is going to skew the costs quite a bit too far. It's a tough one...

Also, big advantage in one direction ... item energy resistance doesn't work anything like natural energy resistance.

[eggynack]

Likewise, i'm not comfortable modeling the +8 ability bonus on an inherent bonus, because contrary to what most people assume, VOP characters will get those inherent bonuses just as easily as party members. I don't actually assume those tomes will be available to anyone in any given campaign, but if they are, the VOP character will have ways of getting that bonus.

I don't see how. The only way I can figure that working is if the VoP character saps resources from other party members. I don't think that's a factor that should be assumed. The character could be a wizard, but I also don't think we should assume casting ability either. There's probably a way or two out there that isn't problematic, but it's certainly not just as easily accessible for him as for other party members. Even if the party finds a tome, the VoP character can't use it at all, because, "You may not use any magic item of any sort." If you're going to claim parity in terms of inherent bonuses, you're going to need to justify that.

[Talya]

I don't see how. The only way I can figure that working is if the VoP character saps resources from other party members. I don't think that's a factor that should be assumed. The character could be a wizard, but I also don't think we should assume casting ability either. There's probably a way or two out there that isn't problematic, but it's certainly not just as easily accessible for him as for other party members. Even if the party finds a tome, the VoP character can't use it at all, because, "You may not use any magic item of any sort." If you're going to claim parity in terms of inherent bonuses, you're going to need to justify that.

The primary, RAW way (from the same book as VOP)...by redeeming Goodwill from all your donations. That wealth the VOP character donates to charities -- if done intelligently (rather than giving to needy orphans, give to powerful churches that give to needy orphans, for instance), you build up massive goodwill with the organizations you donate to. You can then ask for services that amount to a significant fraction of what you've donated. If you've donated what amounts to WBL, you'll have way more than enough goodwill to pay for casting services for Wish on an ability score or three.

As I also stated in another thread, by RAW it's quite possible for a VOP character to read a tome they are given (as they can drink a potion they are given, or any other expendable item for immediate personal use).

This is also ignoring the possibility that they can simply cast wish themselves.

[eggynack]

The primary, RAW way (from the same book as VOP)...by redeeming Goodwill from all your donations. That wealth the VOP character donates to charities -- if done intelligently (rather than giving to needy orphans, give to powerful churches that give to needy orphans, for instance), you build up massive goodwill with the organizations you donate to. You can then ask for services. I've you've donated what amounts to WBL, you'll have way more than enough goodwill to pay for casting services for Wish on an ability score or three. Where is that, anyways? A citation of some kind would be nice.



As I also stated in another thread, by RAW it's quite possible for a VOP character to read a tome they are given (as they can drink a potion they are given, or any other expendable item for immediate personal use).
How? It looks like potion use can bypass the limit on using items, but you're taking this book for at least 6 days. That seems like it breaks the rule that states, "You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round." Finally, as I noted, it is unfair to rely on the kindness of party members in this way. In the best case scenario, you should logically assume that the magic item user is receiving the same additional resources that the VoP guy is. I don't even think that that seems fair, given that you're actively making the party worse in order to retain parity.



This is also ignoring the possibility that they can simply cast wish themselves.
I specifically mentioned the possibility of a wizard VoP user in my post. It just seems like a ridiculous thing to use, because wizards are generally more powerful than either WBL, or VoP. At that point, the argument becomes less about which of those two things is better, and more about who can best optimize a wizard to reach specific goals. We have to assume a generally blank slate on this one, in order to evaluate exactly how well WBL can approximate VoP. It's not really reflective of a real game state, but that was true the minute this guy started taking random things to approximate VoP, instead of just picking up items off the list of necessary magic items like a normal fellow. We're trying to test a pretty specific thing, and having magnanimous party members and wizards at every turn just muddles the issue needlessly.

[Talya]

Where is that, anyways? A citation of some kind would be nice.

BoED, pg. 29, "Tithes and Offerings"
Exerpt:

The DM should track individual or party donations to temples
and other organizations. Even ten percent of the treasure a typical
PC acquires on a single adventure is a spectacular amount of
money to a commoner or expert, and the DM should make sure
that nonplayer characters (NPCs) who receive or otherwise benefit
from the PCs’ donations treat them accordingly. Whenever the
characters come to the temple they give money to, needing a spell
cast or some other form of assistance, the DM can compare the
usual price of whatever the PCs need with the amount of money
they have donated since their last such request. If they have
donated more than the spell or service usually costs, the temple
clergy should be more than happy to provide it at no charge, or at
least at cost (for spells that have expensive components, for
example). However, this generally works only if the characters are
regular donors—past donations are great, but the assurance of
future donations are what make temple budgets possible.




How? It looks like potion use can bypass the limit on using items, but you're taking this book for at least 6 days. That seems like it breaks the rule that states, "You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round." Finally, as I noted, it is unfair to rely on the kindness of party members in this way. In the best case scenario, you should logically assume that the magic item user is receiving the same additional resources that the VoP guy is. I don't even think that that seems fair, given that you're actively making the party worse in order to retain parity.

Since we're already getting legalistic and nitpicky by the very nature of VOP, note that you never need to even touch the tome or hold it in your possession in order to read it. I wouldn't be that picky as a DM, but ... You're not borrowing it. You're reading it. The owner might be in your presence the entire time you're doing so.

[eggynack]

The tithes thing is certainly interesting, but I don't think it'd work for this in particular. I can't really imagine a church having a 17th level wizard on staff, and the experience component would be a bit of a hindrance. On the tome thing, even if that would work, it still doesn't get past the main issue of sapping resources. This tome is necessarily coming at a cost to the party, and it's a cost that the wealth by level character is not incurring. Thus, it shouldn't be allowed at all.

[Talya]

The tithes thing is certainly interesting, but I don't think it'd work for this in particular. I can't really imagine a church having a 17th level wizard on staff, and the experience component would be a bit of a hindrance. On the tome thing, even if that would work, it still doesn't get past the main issue of sapping resources. This tome is necessarily coming at a cost to the party, and it's a cost that the wealth by level character is not incurring. Thus, it shouldn't be allowed at all.

A cleric in the temple can make the tome (with miracle) and even turn the pages for you if you absolutely need it.

[eggynack]

A cleric in the temple can make the tome (with miracle) and even turn the pages for you if you absolutely need it.
I don't see how you're getting a tome out of miracle. Creating high cost magic items is, once again, in the purview of wish.

[Pickford]

Well, you can't cast Disjunction unless you leave Enlightened Fist early, as it loses 2 CL, and the monk level means you lose a third.

It also doesn't really look like the monk levels contribute very much. Why not just a Sorcerer?

Don't you only need level 17 sorc spellcasting to cast 9th level spells?

edit: Oh, and the Sorc doesn't really benefit from the physical parts of vop, the monk would.

edit2: Ah, 18 levels, I suppose I was thinking of wizard...well you could cut off one level of enlightened fist.

[Karnith]

Don't you only need level 17 sorc spellcasting to cast 9th level spells?
Nope, 18. Sorcerers get access to spell levels at (spell level*2), whereas wizards get access to spell levels at (spell level*2-1). Just one more way that sorcerers suffer compared to wizards.

So a sorcerer can only afford to lose 2 caster levels if he still wants ninth-level spells at 20th-level.

edit2: Ah, 18 levels, I suppose I was thinking of wizard...well you could cut off one level of enlightened fist.
Actually, you could only take 5 levels of Enlightened Fist if you wanted to avoid losing 9th-level spells, since you lose the third caster level at Enlightened Fist 6. Not that it really matters, since Enlightened Fist doesn't offer much that late anyway besides spellcasting.

[eggynack]

Oh, and the Sorc doesn't really benefit from the physical parts of vop, the monk would.
Even if you would ever care about that, which you wouldn't, because you have spells, that stops being true by the stage of the game you're talking about. By 9th level spells, you have access to shapechange, and all the brutality that comes with it. If you, for some inexplicable reason, want to punch things in the face at level 20, a straight sorcerer will do it about as well.

[Pickford]

Even if you would ever care about that, which you wouldn't, because you have spells, that stops being true by the stage of the game you're talking about. By 9th level spells, you have access to shapechange, and all the brutality that comes with it. If you, for some inexplicable reason, want to punch things in the face at level 20, a straight sorcerer will do it about as well.

No, a VoP monkanything doesn't have access to shapechange as that requires a 1500gp item.

[Talya]

I don't see how you're getting a tome out of miracle. Creating high cost magic items is, once again, in the purview of wish.

Tome of Clear Thought used as a reference, from the SRD:



Tome of Clear Thought

This heavy book contains instruction on improving memory and logic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Intelligence score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Because the tome of clear thought provides an inherent bonus, the reader will earn extra skill points when she attains a new level.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

A cleric with Craft Wondrous Item can make a +5 tome, and it would sell for 137,500gp. If you've donated much more than that, they'll do it for you.

[Doug Lampert]

A cleric in the temple can make the tome (with miracle) and even turn the pages for you if you absolutely need it.

And your quote says "If they have
donated more than the spell or service usually costs, the temple
clergy should be more than happy to provide it at no charge, or at
least at cost (for spells that have expensive components, for
example)."

XP components have a cost, it's 5 GP per XP, you're asking for them to make an item costing them a fortune (which they won't do without being paid specifically for the item costs) or to cast a spell with an expensive component, which they won't necessarily do without being paid for the component.

So, yeah, we won't charge for a level 9 spell at CL 17 twice, we will charge 50,000 GP for the cost of that material component.\


Tome of Clear Thought used as a reference, from the SRD:

A cleric with Craft Wondrous Item can make a +5 tome, and it would sell for 137,500gp. If you've donated much more than that, they'll do it for you.

Except your quote doesn't say that, it says they'll perform a service or provide a spell cast AT COST. Nothing is said about providing items, and it never says they'll give you anything that actually costs them anything to provide beyond a spell slot or a bit of labor.

[Talya]

Except your quote doesn't say that, it says they'll perform a service or provide a spell cast AT COST. Nothing is said about providing items, and it never says they'll give you anything that actually costs them anything to provide beyond a spell slot or a bit of labor.

They're not providing you an item. You're not allowed to carry the item. They're providing you a service...they're making a book and letting you read it.

Look, it's legalistic, nitpicking, but so are the arguments against it. In the end, the DM isn't going to make it harder for the person with VOP, because VOP sucks. RAW is on VOPs side, in this case, so yeah, you're going to follow it. By level 20, you've donated over 700,000gp worth of gold and items. Long before that they're quite happy to provide you 137,500 worth of services. You've made them very rich.

[Arundel]

New Rule for the suddenly prevalent VoP threads:

If the action in question can be performed as well, if not better, by a sorcerer who happens to feel being nude is liberating, then it's not an improvement.

All of the "tricks" I've seen so far only at best manage to bring the player up near the level of power they had before they crippled themselves with a terrible feat.

[Darth Stabber]

New Rule for the suddenly prevalent VoP threads:

If the action in question can be performed as well, if not better, by a sorcerer who happens to feel being nude is liberating, then it's not an improvement.

All of the "tricks" I've seen so far only at best manage to bring the player up near the level of power they had before they crippled themselves with a terrible feat.

Not entirely true, my contribution was focused on ease, at the willingness to accept the crippling. The general idea is that certain classes have some difficulties with traditional items, and while you can work around them in a manner more efficiently and more powerfully with magic items, VoP does it easier.

[danzibr]

Thank you, interesting is what I'm going for. The only way this thread is going to provide an ironclad answer to the "which is better" debate is if we can find a way to replicate every single ability with less than Wealth by Level. I dougbt that will happen, mostly because of the Exalted feats, which while generally accepted to be mostly underwhelming, are difficult to find ways of replicating.
I just realized me saying, "This is very interesting for what it is" makes me look like a prick. I find it interesting, period.

[Pickford]

Disjunction means smaller donations to your charity of choice, do you want orphan's to starve because you couldn't hold it back like every other adventurer?

If I fail, because I was greedy, then they get nothing. Also I wouldn't be exalted :smallbiggrin:

edit: And I only raised the point because it is something that a VoP character can do without being equally susceptible to it (go around slinging things that completely negate an opponents magical advantage...permanent like) which a non-VoP would be susceptible to.

[Talya]

New Rule for the suddenly prevalent VoP threads:

If the action in question can be performed as well, if not better, by a sorcerer who happens to feel being nude is liberating, then it's not an improvement.

All of the "tricks" I've seen so far only at best manage to bring the player up near the level of power they had before they crippled themselves with a terrible feat.


It is a poor feat for optimization. (I was going to say "nobody's arguing otherwise," but evidently, some people are.) As such, it doesn't need artificial restrictions placed by people trying to prove how terrible it is. It's already obviously not good. Let's not limit it in additional ways just for the sake of kicking the cripple in the teeth.

[137beth]

If I fail, because I was greedy, then they get nothing. Also I wouldn't be exalted :smallbiggrin:

edit: And I only raised the point because it is something that a VoP character can do without being equally susceptible to it (go around slinging things that completely negate an opponents magical advantage...permanent like) which a non-VoP would be susceptible to.

Although your non-VOP party members will hate you for it...

[Medic!]

It really helps to remember that VoP wasn't designed to be a good option as a feat in any case. It was designed as an option for players who wished to try out the ascetic lifestyle with their PC without completely destroying their ability to contribute.

It is, first and foremost, an optional patch, and secondly it is what everything ever published ever when it comes to D&D is: a guideline.

[Talya]

It really helps to remember that VoP wasn't designed to be a good option as a feat in any case. It was designed as an option for players who wished to try out the ascetic lifestyle with their PC without completely destroying their ability to contribute.

It is, first and foremost, an optional patch, and secondly it is what everything ever published ever when it comes to D&D is: a guideline.

On the one hand, I partially disagree. No feat should make you weaker just by taking it. Even toughness provides a net advantage, albeit tiny. VOP requires two feats, for an option that severely limits you.

On the other hand, I love the feat. I hate worrying about equipment. I am playing a VOP druid right now and having a blast. (but then, it's a druid. VOP really doesn't hurt at all.) I prefer straightforward tactics with numerical advantages to fancy stuff.

Ignoring silliness like "You can't use a spellbook or holy symbols," I'd fix VOP in two ways: (1) It would be only a single feat. I considered making it a no-feat ACF that replaces your ability to use gear, but no. With the second fix, I think that'd be too much. (2) A big line of new exalted feats that fill less situational requirements: Flight, for instance, is the obvious one.

That's all I think it needs...it gives you 11 feats, but you'll have a hard time finding 11 exalted feats that you even qualify for, let alone that are any good.

[Doug Lampert]

They're not providing you an item. You're not allowed to carry the item. They're providing you a service...they're making a book and letting you read it.

Look, it's legalistic, nitpicking, but so are the arguments against it. In the end, the DM isn't going to make it harder for the person with VOP, because VOP sucks. RAW is on VOPs side, in this case, so yeah, you're going to follow it. By level 20, you've donated over 700,000gp worth of gold and items. Long before that they're quite happy to provide you 137,500 worth of services. You've made them very rich.

No, it's not rules as written and pointing out that there are expensive components is not legalistic nitpicking.

RAI on that section is that they do you favors that DON'T COST THEM ANYTHING, such as casting spells. The reason for the component exception is that you ARE NOT BUYING THESE THINGS, you are giving to charity and they are doing you a favor that doesn't cost the charity anything.

RAW supports them not spending money on you. The service costs them components (both for the book and the additional XP componet) and they charge for components by RAW.

Yeah, VOP sucks even with your interpretation. That is sucks less does not make your interpretation RAW, that you appeal to such shows that you KNOW it isn't RAW. And it also isn't RAI since the section you quote has a SPECIFIC exemption to disallow what you're trying to do.

[Talya]

No, it's not rules as written and pointing out that there are expensive components is not legalistic nitpicking.

RAI on that section is that they do you favors that DON'T COST THEM ANYTHING, such as casting spells.


The rules say nothing of the sort.


Whenever the characters come to the temple they give money to, needing a spell cast or some other form of assistance, the DM can compare the usual price of whatever the PCs need with the amount of money they have donated since their last such request. If they have donated more than the spell or service usually costs, the temple clergy should be more than happy to provide it at no charge, or at least at cost.


In fact, it's explicitly stated it does cost them something, and they're happy to provide you costly services at no charge, because it's a net gain for them.

[ryu]

Do I need to bring up that it specifically states anything with expensive component costs is stated as something they'll do at cost? How about the fact this legalistic workaround to actually get some WBL with VoP actually has that as a legal hole and thus can't claim RAW or RAI?

[Pickford]

Although your non-VOP party members will hate you for it...

I actually thought an antagonist who was say, leading a peasant revolt or attempting to lead a non-violent uprising (with darker undertones, courtesy of followers who didn't quite 'get it') would make for an annoying yet powerful opponent.

i.e. Someone who is opposed to the corrupting influences of magic and removes it almost constantly. Throw on the Saint template (which the VoP user will definitely qualify for) and you're looking at a rather scary opponent.

[Talya]

Do I need to bring up that it specifically states anything with expensive component costs is stated as something they'll do at cost? How about the fact this legalistic workaround to actually get some WBL with VoP actually has that as a legal hole and thus can't claim RAW or RAI?

You're only reading what you want to see.


If they have donated more than the spell or service usually costs, the temple clergy should be more than happy to provide it at no charge, or at least at cost.

Note the default is "at no charge," with "at least at cost" coming in afterward, depending on the situation.

[ryu]

As in for things which are relatively expensive. Like say for example fairly expensive magic items that they have to make just for you.

[Talya]

As in for things which are relatively expensive. Like say for example fairly expensive magic items that they have to make just for you.

Those are your criteria.

[Augmental]

Those are your criteria.

And your criteria is your criteria. It's not necessarily any more valid than his criteria.

[eggynack]

And your criteria is your criteria. It's not necessarily any more valid than his criteria.
Basically this. A DM could easily give the player as many tomes as he donated for, give him tomes that come out of the party's wealth by level, or give him nothing. I don't think we should assess under the assumption that things are favorable for the VoP player like that. The VoP guy has the things he gets from VoP, and the WBL guy has the things he gets from WBL. Tomes don't really have a place on the WBL side of the equation. Seriously, this thing about the priest holding a tome for the VoP guy seems extremely dubious to me. There's a bit of RAW ambiguity, but not nearly enough for this.