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Fates
2013-06-25, 07:34 PM
I was recently reading through the binder class, and I absolutely love the mechanic. However, I find the fluff, while interesting, doesn't really fit well in the campaign I'm DMing.

How would you all feel about a class, using the pact magic system, that, rather than binding vestiges, bound outsiders? So, you could, say, bind a babau demon, and gain some variation of claws, sneak attack, protective slime...and also a few of the usual demon abilities, IE telepathy and DR.

Obviously, the higher level you were, the more powerful outsiders you could bind, to the point of eventually possibly being able to bind aspects of celestial paragons and archfiends at high levels.

Now, a few questions regarding how to go about this.

-How would I deal with alignment? My original idea was that the character would choose early on two or three alignments of outsider that they could summon, each of which could not be more than one step away from their own alignment. Binding outsiders of the one's own alignment would most likely be easier to do. However, this seems potentially flawed given the unfair advantage it gives to TN characters, and the question of what is to be done should the character shift alignment.

-Should I use the pact magic system verbatim, or should I modify it to better fit the fluff of summoning living creatures? For example, it seems that devils might require that you strike some manner of bargain with them should you fail to achieve a high enough binding check, whereas demons may simply kill you, and celestials may choose to bind with you, plane hop away, or bring you to justice, depending on how you intend to use their powers. The issue with this concept is that it requires a whole mess of bookkeeping or a hell of a lot of DM fiat.

-Would it make more sense to make a class that only binds fiends? It would take far less time, and most of the interesting binds would be fiends anyway, seeing as how celestial binding could lead to "You gain feathery wings...again... and a slightly stronger magic circle against evil than last time," and Slaadi, Formians and what have you would just be a bit weird and would also result in a very small selection. Besides which, it would practically remove the alignment issue.

Yitzi
2013-06-25, 08:14 PM
-How would I deal with alignment? My original idea was that the character would choose early on two or three alignments of outsider that they could summon, each of which could not be more than one step away from their own alignment. Binding outsiders of the one's own alignment would most likely be easier to do. However, this seems potentially flawed given the unfair advantage it gives to TN characters, and the question of what is to be done should the character shift alignment.

Say that they get a bonus for each axis on which their alignment matches the outsider's (and they're not neutral), and a penalty for each axis on which it is opposed. So TN will be able to bind anything without penalty, but won't get a bonus on anything either.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-06-26, 05:59 PM
-How would I deal with alignment? My original idea was that the character would choose early on two or three alignments of outsider that they could summon, each of which could not be more than one step away from their own alignment. Binding outsiders of the one's own alignment would most likely be easier to do. However, this seems potentially flawed given the unfair advantage it gives to TN characters, and the question of what is to be done should the character shift alignment.
As Yitzi suggested, a bonus/penalty to the Binding check seems about right.


-Should I use the pact magic system verbatim, or should I modify it to better fit the fluff of summoning living creatures? For example, it seems that devils might require that you strike some manner of bargain with them should you fail to achieve a high enough binding check, whereas demons may simply kill you, and celestials may choose to bind with you, plane hop away, or bring you to justice, depending on how you intend to use their powers. The issue with this concept is that it requires a whole mess of bookkeeping or a hell of a lot of DM fiat.
I think the system as-is will work OK. Most of that will come out in the sign/influence, I think. Maybe have the pacts be a bit more powerful than in the book, but the influence be a bit stronger?


-Would it make more sense to make a class that only binds fiends? It would take far less time, and most of the interesting binds would be fiends anyway, seeing as how celestial binding could lead to "You gain feathery wings...again... and a slightly stronger magic circle against evil than last time," and Slaadi, Formians and what have you would just be a bit weird and would also result in a very small selection. Besides which, it would practically remove the alignment issue.
I'd suggest trying to make some non-fiend binds and see if you can come up with enough before making this decision. (You can always adapt them to be general binder pacts later)

necroon
2013-06-26, 06:09 PM
I do believe Milo v3 had something like this....
Ah here we go.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234102
It's not finished (sadly) but might give you some good direction?

Gnorman
2013-06-26, 06:09 PM
I'd propose a generalist base class and possibly some outsider-specific prestige classes.

There are enough celestials, lawful, and chaotic outsiders to support those playstyles, even if they don't honestly match up to the diversity of the fiendish ones. But you've got elementals to throw into the mix if you really wanted to; that might help expand the options for good/neutral binders.

I'd say nine binding "levels" is the magic number here.

Demons: Dretch, Succubus, Babau, Vrock, Hezrou, Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, Marilith, Balor

Devils: Imp, Barbazu, Erinyes, Kyton, Hamatula, Osyluth, Gelugon, Cornugon, Pit Fiend

Eladrin: Coure, Noviere, Bralani, Firre, Ghaele, Shiradi, Tulani. You could throw in the Lillend and the Asura for good measure here.

Archons: Lantern, Hound, Justice, Warden, Hammer, Owl, Sword, Trumpet, Throne. Hey, that's nine right there! Don't even need to go further.

That takes care of the alignment extremes.

Guardinals? I'm seeing 7. Angels/devas could be their own separate category as well.

Plenty of yugoloths for the neutral evil types. Could do it even without delving into the nightmare, night hag, vargouille, etc.

Chaotic ones? Well, you've got six slaads, the titan, and the chaos beast. Almost there.

Lawful? Formians, inevitables, modrons, and plenty of other miscellaneous creatures like the justicator or the visilight.

Elemental outsiders, we have plenty of those too: salamanders, tritons, arrowhawks, xorns, tojanidas, and the genies. This shouldn't be too hard either.

Heck, you could even do one just for extraplanar undead.

Really, the only ones I see being somewhat difficult are True Neutral ones. Between the rilmani and the nerra you might have enough.

Erik Vale
2013-06-26, 06:29 PM
Now, a few questions regarding how to go about this.

-How would I deal with alignment? My original idea was that the character would choose early on two or three alignments of outsider that they could summon, each of which could not be more than one step away from their own alignment. Binding outsiders of the one's own alignment would most likely be easier to do. However, this seems potentially flawed given the unfair advantage it gives to TN characters, and the question of what is to be done should the character shift alignment.

-Should I use the pact magic system verbatim, or should I modify it to better fit the fluff of summoning living creatures? For example, it seems that devils might require that you strike some manner of bargain with them should you fail to achieve a high enough binding check, whereas demons may simply kill you, and celestials may choose to bind with you, plane hop away, or bring you to justice, depending on how you intend to use their powers. The issue with this concept is that it requires a whole mess of bookkeeping or a hell of a lot of DM fiat.

-Would it make more sense to make a class that only binds fiends? It would take far less time, and most of the interesting binds would be fiends anyway, seeing as how celestial binding could lead to "You gain feathery wings...again... and a slightly stronger magic circle against evil than last time," and Slaadi, Formians and what have you would just be a bit weird and would also result in a very small selection. Besides which, it would practically remove the alignment issue.

It might make most sense to be restricted based on what creatures you currently have bound [a angel doesn't want to work with a demon, and Deamons are just about universally hated]. pathfinder has [the third party] devil bound creature templates, perhaps some sort of alteration of them would work.

You might also want to figure in some way to fit in the planar binding spells [possibly being able to summon them outside of your own body instead of just in your body].

Gnorman
2013-06-26, 06:36 PM
It might make most sense to be restricted based on what creatures you currently have bound [a angel doesn't want to work with a demon, and Deamons are just about universally hated]. pathfinder has [the third party] devil bound creature templates, perhaps some sort of alteration of them would work.

You might also want to figure in some way to fit in the planar binding spells [possibly being able to summon them outside of your own body instead of just in your body].

I like this. It's basically a contract with the entity, and if you're bound to a demon, probably the only other creatures that will put up with you are other demons (maybe 'loths and slaadi). Though if you're a strong enough binder, you might be able to force them to work together. Devils and demons, perhaps. Archons and demons? Probably not, unless you're REALLY good.

Fates
2013-06-26, 10:07 PM
It might make most sense to be restricted based on what creatures you currently have bound [a angel doesn't want to work with a demon, and Deamons are just about universally hated]. pathfinder has [the third party] devil bound creature templates, perhaps some sort of alteration of them would work.


I like the idea, as it works very well fluff-wise. I'll definitely be including this.



You might also want to figure in some way to fit in the planar binding spells [possibly being able to summon them outside of your own body instead of just in your body].

Eh, this I'm not terribly certain about. Perhaps a version of the ability to summon outsiders of the same type would be conferred for more powerful binds, though.



Snippidy-doo-da

You make some very fair points here. I suppose that would work well, and if I restricted myself to a bind for each alignment for each level, it wouldn't take a hideously long time- only...81 binds....

:smallsigh: Well, I suppose that's reasonable enough.

Making a PrC specifically for binding Fiends that offered a wider variety may be interesting. Do you think I should make a single PrC that encompassed all manner of fiends, or separate ones for each respective sort?


I think the system as-is will work OK. Most of that will come out in the sign/influence, I think. Maybe have the pacts be a bit more powerful than in the book, but the influence be a bit stronger?

This is about my line of thinking. After all, outsiders tend to be passionate and extreme beings, so a more dramatic influence and sign may be in order. Perhaps even forcing one to change to the alignment of their bind for the duration of the effect if they fail to resist the influence by a high enough amount? Eh, maybe not.


Thank you all for your input, and please, if you have any more ideas, keep them coming!

Gnorman
2013-06-26, 10:51 PM
I would suggest a fiendbinding class that gets access to the more "exotic" demons and devils (i.e. the ones not in the SRD). While a garden-variety binder might be familiar with the more common species, such as the dretch or the babau, it might take a devoted specialist to bind the alkilith or the yochlol.

It's either that or there are just more demons available. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you.

Also, I don't think you should feel like you have to fill every available level with one creature from every alignment. A Lawful Good binder will still be able to be comfortable with an inevitable or a guardinal, even if no archon is available. 81's a lot of stuff to do! You should also feel free to combine or overlook creatures with substantially the same role - what's the practical difference between a bezekira and a jarilith? They're both sneaky cat fiends.