Core class battle

[StickMan]

The fighter V wizard thread got me thinking. How about we do a round robin elimation tournament. Each We will have one person per core class. And we will need some one to be the DM/judge because I want to play the fighter.
Stat generation will be
32 point buy

On top of this you get 2 ability increases, one for the 4th and and one for 8th HD.



The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10 (45000 XP)

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 30 % (14700) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- Item Creation
Item Creation feats are allowed, but any XP-costs will reduce your level below 10.
Notice that this also reduces the maximum caster level of any items you make (unless you hire outside help with creation).

- No Custom items (This includes wands and other items that are not fully charged or have less uses/day etc.)

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil:
Changed to Smite opponent.
Mount:
The special mounts listed in the DMG are also available.
Typical for its kind, but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena: Map-makers wanted
Know map, but Fog of War

Any thoughts on what the arena size should be. And If I'm missing any thing yell at me.

First to call the class first gets it.

DM: Lord_Silvanos and Stickman.
Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard:Leush
Cleric:Rigeld2
Druid:The_Werebear
Fighter: PinkysBrain
Monk:Falconsflight
Paladin:The White Knight
Ranger:Draz74
Rogue:Hamster_Ninja
Sorcerer:Bobbis
Wizard:Jade_Tarem

[ken-do-nim]

You should clarify what % of the 49,000 gp can be spent on one item. Otherwise someone could plunk down 40000 on that ring of freedom of movement. Solid fog, solid schmog. :-). DMG gives 25% as a guideline.

The arena makes all the difference in the world. If there's room to fly/levitate out of harm's way, the casters will do so.

[ken-do-nim]

Also can the MM be used? Monks like improved natural attack and ability focus stunning fist.

[StickMan]

Thanks ken-do-nim. Your right about the map lets for now lets say a 10 foot celling. I don't want all the fighter types to have to be archers just to get a shot at casters. I added the 25% thing it was a good sugestion. MM feats are ok but no races.

[The_Werebear]

The arena I typically run for a battle is a 200 foot ring with a 30 foot roof. There is a 50 foot radius forest in the center with underbrush and shadows enough to hide. Horses are allowed inside. There are six seconds between spellcasting getting to start and the first movement.

[ken-do-nim]

Ooh, should it be round robin or everyone in the arena at once? Aside from cleric casting sanctuary, it could get really interesting.

[Draz74]

Argh, I already replied here, but my Internet connection died and ate my post :smallfurious:

Anyway, I'm afraid of the time commitment involved in running all these duels, but I could probably build one of the characters. I'll tentatively claim the Ranger.

But a number of questions about the duels:

Is anything in Core banned? (e.g. Polymorph!!!) Is anything in the SRD outside of Core allowed (e.g. Psionic Feats)?

What races are allowed? PHB PC races only? Anything in the MM with an LA? What is the druid allowed to shape into?

Is there any motivation for any of the characters to be evil, so the Paladin can do some smiting? It's kind of a major feature of his.

Any multiclassing or PrCs allowed at all? I'm guessing "no," but I thought I'd ask, in case, for example, the Rogue thinks a 1-level dip in Shadowdancer is worthwhile.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The fighter V wizard thread got me thinking. How about we do a round robin elimation tournament. Each We will have one person per core class.

This ensures the creation of somewhat more versatile characters, since you have to optimize for a wider range of opponents.
Elimination goes against that, because there are opponents you won't have to face then.



I think we should go beond the Elite Array on too the Stickman Array of
18,16,15,14,12,10.


So you suggest the equivalent of a 46-point buy :smalleek:
Making it high powered favors MAD classes, but I think you should keep it on a more reasonable and CORE supported level, say 32-point buy.

[Falconsflight]

I'll make the level 10 monk

I think a preset value for the stats would be better than rolling or a buy system. That way it's kind of equal footing and makes less tweaking.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (25-point equivalent) and in my opinion the best choice for an exercise like this, assuming it is an actual attempt to compare the classes based on the RAW.

[Pegasos989]

I'll make the level 10 monk

I think a preset value for the stats would be better than rolling or a buy system. That way it's kind of equal footing and makes less tweaking.

Also, may I suggest same preset items for everyone?
---End of sarcasm---

Yeah, it makes less tweaking but as that is going to happen in actual game too... Also, it gives better footing to paladins and monks but most classes would be better of pointbuy, so no equal footing there.

BTW, what about PrCs?
Is rogue 7/Assassin 3 counted as rogue 10 for this?
What about Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 4 as rogue 10?
Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/EK 3 counted as sorcerer?

[StickMan]

Draz74: I think that your right and the duels will take alot of time. But will have to work it out to see when people are free. Also I don't see the point of baning things in this because that is just cripling what is good about these classes. Don't make you charater to fight on his own battle field, plan to fight dirty.
I think for the sake of this we will have to change the Smite evil to Smite other guy becasue I see no reason to be evil and if not then thats one less class feture for the palidin.
No multi-classing or PRC because I want this to be between pure core classes just to see who will win aginst who. Not that I'm going to take this all that seriously.
As for what will do for charater stats I'll take a vote of the people who are going to be in this to see what they want to do. Honestly I just wanted to do that becase that High power sounded like fun, and I hate 32 point buy/Elite Array.

[ken-do-nim]

I think if this is everybody at once in an arena, I'd like to play (could play whatever no one else wants). But if it's one at a time, we might all get slaughtered by one character who needs ganging up one. For instance, rogues work better when they can flank. Without the flank, they're not as good.

Meanwhile the wizard has the same approach (I think). Web with quickened ray of enfeeblement, then kill at leisure. That'll work against everybody but the bard & cleric who have freedom of movement. But in a large arena, those guys would have time to get out of the web while the wizard is busy stopping somebody else.

[StickMan]

Kin-do-nim This is why they make magic items. The rogue should buy a bag of tricks pop out an animal and flank with it. I don't even want to think about the free for all fight, it would be to hard to run, 11 people all at once on play by post.

[The White Knight]

I've always found 36 point buy to be a pretty happy medium. You're not total suck, and you're not vastly overpowered.

I'd suggest not having multiclassing or prestige classing, since this seems more a comparison of the base classes themselves than anything else.

The arena The_Werebear suggested sounds pretty good, although having a forest in the center feels awkward somehow. Perhaps the whole arena is natural terrain, and there are other obstacles scattered about (bushes, rocks, etc. - but not too densely so as to negate mounted combat or the like).

I'd consider trying a Paladin for this. I've always wondered exactly how well a core Paladin would measure up to the others.

[ken-do-nim]

Kin-do-nim This is why they make magic items. The rogue should buy a bag of tricks pop out an animal and flank with it. I don't even want to think about the free for all fight, it would be to hard to run, 11 people all at once on play by post.

Didn't think of that :-)

Fair enough about the 11 people all at once. I did have an idea for this once myself though, basically Doom as the arena. There would be a citadel. All the players would enter at a different point. Just like Doom as well, there would be monsters in the way too to add some 3rd party flavor. Last one standing wins (which because of the monsters could be none). There would also be secret rooms to discover with magic. That would help out the rogue and ranger. In the end, none of my friends were interested in competition D&D though, so I dropped the idea.

Edit: rethinking the Doom idea now, you may want a time limit. This after one friend suggested that if he were to play in it, he'd meld with stone as long as he could, then pop out to see if anyone was left.

[The_Werebear]

If you guys don't mind, I would like to take the Druid.

[Leush]

I choooose... BARD!!! And could I ask, that there be a play off between the loosers, so we know how each class is against the other?... Purely out of curiousity you understand... :P


EDIT: Arena size should be quite big, say 300*300*200 ft and not nessicarily be a level field, since that would make it more interesting.... or not.

[Piccamo]

If Mr. Barbarian kills Mr. Fighter does he get to take the stuff?

Also, how are you going to manage the 4 encounters per day to balance things for everyone? Does everyone fight 4 times and the loser of each battle is restored to 1/4 HP? Does each fight involve everyone at only 1/4 capacity (HP, spells, uses per day, etc)?

[Pegasos989]

I choooose... BARD!!! And could I ask, that there be a play off between the loosers, so we know how each class is against the other?

Heh, bard might actually be decent in this. Good will save helps against spellcasters, the few spells are nor anything comparable to a gish but as gishes aren't allowed... And d6 might not make you be able to combat but it should be enough to endure a few first attacks. Not to mention that if we play in a citadel, hide and move silently might become useful.

So even though I am the first one to argue against anyone saying bards aren't underpowered, a little bit of luck and bard has decent chance in this, I would say.



So, no PrCs or multiclassing then? Are custom magic items allowed?

Oh, and I think that best ways would be to put everyone through matches, starting at full stuff and hp, then winner goes to next match, etc... Everyone can restore to full after he has won 4 fights. That way spellcasters are given more realistic situation (giving fourth slots only is not fair as in some fights they use more and in some fights they use less).


EDIT: Actually, the way I count correctly, winner will go 4 fighst so just say "no rest between fights" and all is fine

Round 1:
a vs. b
c vs. d
e vs. f
g vs. h
i vs. j
Round 2:
a vs. c
e vs. g
Round 3:
e vs. g
Round 4:
e vs. k

The K is only one who goes only through 1 fight, so he could start at 4th of hp, daily uses, etc.

[Leush]

Ayup! Last time I was in an all out arena the bard won. But then, his player was a goddamn genius so I can't vouch for the same result.

Oh and to be awkward... The underpowerdness is what makes bards so much fun!

[Rigeld2]

I'll take the cleric since noone has picked up as the GM for the cleric vs Fighter duel I accepted.

[StickMan]

If Mr. Barbarian kills Mr. Fighter does he get to take the stuff?

Also, how are you going to manage the 4 encounters per day to balance things for everyone? Does everyone fight 4 times and the loser of each battle is restored to 1/4 HP? Does each fight involve everyone at only 1/4 capacity (HP, spells, uses per day, etc)?

Fist of all this is round robin not elimination so there will be no killing or stealing of other guys stuff, or in case of a kill we have a cleric on the sidelines with TrueRes preped. Second each encounter will be at full healt, full spells. 4 encounters per day is for a party of 4 charaters not for one on one fights in an arena setting.

As for the map I am going to make one that in cludes a High ceiling for flying but will also have some kind of like cave or built area to duck under, along with walls or trees to take cover.

Rigeld2 You can GM a fight your in.

[Draz74]

Draz74: I think that your right and the duels will take alot of time. But will have to work it out to see when people are free.

Well, I won't have much time for anything online until finals are over, 22 December.


Also I don't see the point of baning things in this because that is just cripling what is good about these classes. Don't make you charater to fight on his own battle field, plan to fight dirty.

No, I think most of us would quickly agree that there's plenty of things that are good about the Wizard, even without Polymorph. But hey, if you don't mind the Wizard turning himself into a 23-strength-with-reach Troll, or something even more optimal ...


Honestly I just wanted to do that becase that High power sounded like fun, and I hate 32 point buy/Elite Array.

High power is fun, but it's not a very fair representation of the classes. It's a huge advantage to MAD characters. By the way, by the RAW, even 32-point is high power, let alone 36-point. I think 28-point is the fairest, really. Or maybe a standard array, slightly better than Elite but worse than the StickMan? 16 14 14 12 10 8? Or even better? Note that characters will also have 2 extra points they'll be able to apply as they like due to achieving Levels 4 and 8.

Also, I'd like to point out a very important question still hanging: Custom magic items? Personally I'd say "no," except for moving items to different body slots for a 1.5x price penalty. Although I can see an argument for allowing skill-improving custom items (I love items that give bonuses to Bluff or Intimidate!).

[StickMan]

I'm going to say No on the Custom magic Items. The reason I hate thoughs systems is that I normaly play high powered games and we use die roll so my group ends with results highpower charaters. So I fully adimt that Stickman Array was full selfish attempt at make it high powered but with out dice roll but still some what balanced.

Wow you have exams till 22 mine end tommorow then I'm on break. But I go to The Ohio State University and we get out early.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Since no one else has volunteered as DM, I would not mind doing it.

[StickMan]

Ok Silvanos I put you down for DM and myself if you can't do it durning a given fight and I can.

[Rigeld2]

I'll take the cleric since noone has picked up as the GM for the cleric vs Fighter duel I accepted.
Quoted for emphasis.. and how are we doing prestige classes?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

We have 55 fights going on so a second DM might be a good idea, although some of these fights are going to be rather short.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Quoted for emphasis.. and how are we doing prestige classes?

We are not.



No multi-classing or PRC because I want this to be between pure core classes just to see who will win aginst who.

EDIT: Just to remind people that we still have these 6 slots unfilled:

Barbarian:
Bard:
Paladin:
Rogue:
Sorcerer:
Wizard:

[Pegasos989]

Damn, I tried to resist BUT I CAN'T!

Apus Barbarian.

[StickMan]

Wait do you mean you want to be the barbarian. I'll put you down for it till you say other wise.

[Leush]

Could I go with Bard, or is it already taken?

[StickMan]

Bards all yours.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard: Leush
Cleric: Rigeld2
Druid:The_Werebear
Fighter: Stickman
Monk:Falconsflight
Paladin:
Ranger:Draz74
Rogue:
Sorcerer:
Wizard:

[Jade_Tarem]

Wizard for me, or sorcerer if someone really, really wants to play wizard.

Could I specialize by any chance, say, gnome illusionist? Just a thought.

[Pegasos989]

Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard: Leush
Cleric: Rigeld2
Druid:The_Werebear
Fighter: Stickman
Monk:Falconsflight
Paladin:
Ranger:Draz74
Rogue:
Sorcerer:
Wizard:

I find it a bit amusing that sorcerer and wizard (two full casters) are last ones to be taken, along with rogue (possibly the only core noncaster which is normally seen as good class even if going straight 20). :D


BTW, What stat generation will we use? 25-32 pointbuy is okay, elite array is okay... The original is SO favouring monks, paladins and melee clerics that I would like something else. Besides, such rolls are not coming up too often (lowest one 10, then we have 18, 2x 16...)

[StickMan]

Ok i'm putting you down for wizard Jade_Tarem. Feel free to specialize, that is with in the rules.

[Jade_Tarem]

Someone mentioned the "stickman" array, whatever that is.

I haven't used this forum to play before, anything I should know or will it be kinda like other pvp? I hope not... pvp never ends well for my group. I still couldn't resist...

Where's the built in die-roller?

Edit: Thanks, Stickman. Are we just starting when everyone signs up?

[Bobbis]

If monster races are allowed; rogue, otherwise I'll take the sorc.

[StickMan]

Stickman array was somthing crazy I came up with but I took it off. You can find the info on the die roller In Site issues.

Now I'm off to do a paper and will not be able to cheak in for a few hours. Well I may take a break or two.

[ken-do-nim]

Leush took the bard. Sorry I wrote this when Lord Silvanos was asking who would play the remaining ones. I was gonna jump in, but I think time is a consideration so I'll pass.

[Pegasos989]

Will we know what the field looks like before submitting characters (I hope not, as that allows some sort of dark maze-like area)? And will the DM design it?


I think that stickman mentioned that he would design it himself, but I am kinda against that. I do trust that you won't purposefully use it to your advantage but you would propably think like "I think that the terrain should make this tactic viable" and that way kinda give yourself benefit you might otherwise have or then not. Also, if there is some mazy place, a player knowing it would be kinda... :P


(Also, do we have any great opposition to 32 pointbuy here?)

[StickMan]

If you guys want we could have Lord_Silvanos or a none partial 3rd party make it. My origial plan to make it was to work on it with Lord_Silvanos, but you do have a point that I may even supconiously biais.

I would like include though my origianl Charater idea has not changed scence last night when I was planing to just run a flat map. But once more you do have a good point.

If any one is reading this and would like to make a map who is not playing then what we would like for the map would be a large room/staidum, walls and or trees to take cover by and some kind of cave or stucture to take cover under so as to not have to always worry about fly mages with fireballs (I like the cave idea). If we get more than one vote we can put it up to a general vote as to which to use or leave it up to Lord_Silvanos. If you make a map plz PM it to Lord_Silvanos.

[Leush]

To be fair, it would be nice to have one stat over 15... Although, I suppose it doesn't matter much, because if one guy's weaker, so is everyone else.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

(Also, do we have any great opposition to 32 pointbuy here?)

We will look into it when all slots are filled and see what the contestants prefer.

32- point
28 - point
25 - point
Elite array

I do not think there is any strong bias and all four are described in the DMG.

[The White Knight]

Barbarian:
Bard:
Paladin:
Rogue:
Sorcerer:
Wizard:


I'd consider trying a Paladin for this. I've always wondered exactly how well a core Paladin would measure up to the others.

*coughs* :P

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

*coughs* :P

I apologize. :smallredface:

Only Rogue is available now.

[Draz74]

Anyone want to be my second to help me with running the duels once I build the Ranger?

Did we decide which races are allowed? (Probably either "PHB only," or "Anything in the MM with a Level Adjustment." Although I could also see melee-types wanting to use the Half-Giant.)

[Hamster_Ninja]

I'll take rogue if no one minds.

[StickMan]

I apologize. :smallredface:

Only Rogue is available now.

That realy is my falult more than your. You had not even offered to DM when he had posted. I just forgot to put it up but fixed now.

Hamster_Ninja I'm putting you down for rogue.

Oh hey all class filled up. Now we just have to work out the rules, map, charater creation and times people are avalibe.

Now back to my paper.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Great then we have the following contestants:

Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard:Leush
Cleric:Rigeld2 (Indifferent)
Druid:The_Werebear
Fighter: Stickman (32)
Monk:Falconsflight (Elite)
Paladin:The White Knight
Ranger:Draz74
Rogue: Hamster Ninja (Indifferent)
Sorcerer:Bobbis
Wizard:Jade_Tarem

Since this is a Battle of the Core Classes I suggest we stick to PHB races.

Which stat-generation do you, the contestants, prefer?


32- point
28 - point
25 - point
Elite array



PM sent to all contestants who has not chimed in on stats yet.

[StickMan]

I vote for 32 point buy.
Only people Playing or DMing may vote. (Well you can't vote if your not playing your vote just does not count)

[Rigeld2]

Point buy doesn't matter to me. Some one else pick - I'll abstain.

[Hamster_Ninja]

I also have no preference, and also much ask a question- Are we using average hp?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Max HP for 1st level
Avg for the rest

[Deepblue706]

I may not be a participant, but I have this to say:

25 point-buy is "elite" for "elite NPC". This is your Knight-Captain helper guy, the High Preist of (whatever), the "Old Man In The Woods", and so on. I think what you guys are looking for is 28 or 30 point buy.

[StickMan]

Ok I forgot about Subraces. I think some would be too powerful for this style of play, so were going to take this back to just PH.

[Rigeld2]

Also - Leadership - nixed?

Average for d8, d10, and d12 is 4.5, 5.5, 6.5?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Also - Leadership - nixed?

Average for d8, d10, and d12 is 4.5, 5.5, 6.5?

- Agreed on both counts, this is about the classes not about helpers.


- Only PHB races allowed.


- PM sent to all contestants who has not chimed in on stats yet.

Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard:Leush (28 OR 32)
Cleric:Rigeld2 (Indifferent)
Druid:The_Werebear (28)
Fighter: Stickman (32)
Monk:Falconsflight (Elite)
Paladin:The White Knight (28 OR 32)
Ranger:Draz74 (28)
Rogue: Hamster Ninja (Indifferent)
Sorcerer:Bobbis (Indifferent)
Wizard:Jade_Tarem (Elite OR 32)

Which stat-generation do you, the contestants, prefer?

32- point
28 - point
25 - point
Elite array

On top of this you get 2 ability increases, one for the 4th and and one for 8th HD.

[Shisumo]

Also - Leadership - nixed?

Average for d8, d10, and d12 is 4.5, 5.5, 6.5?

Which means you get 9, 11, and 13 hp respectively for every two class levels after first, and 4, 5, and 6 hp for the remaining hit die.

Put another way, total HP for 10th level characters looks like this:

Hit die: total HP
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

[Bobbis]

Abstain + random stuff to fit 10 character minimum.

[StickMan]

Vote 32 point buy. Elite is a flipfloper, and Cheats on his wife.:smallwink:\

CORE CLASS BATTLE 06.

[Falconsflight]

Does that mean we have a winner?

[Jade_Tarem]

I vote 32 point buy or Elite Array.

Assuming that we know the terrain ahead of time, what is it? If we're to be surprised, that's cool too, and may even be better.

Heh, will there be a "cage" type fight at the end with all the classes? That would be fun...

[Jade_Tarem]

Sorry for the Double post, going to test die roller.

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

We just need to hear from Pegasos989 and it will be settled. ( I think Pegasos supports 32-point, but I just want to have it confirmed.)

My craft (map making) skill could be better, so if any non-contestant reading this thread would like to contribute with that it would make my life easier.
Otherwise I will make one (I have a few ideas).

If everyone is still with us when we finish this we could do something like a cage-fight, it will be messy, but could be fun too :-)

[Jade_Tarem]

We have an equal number of 32's and 28's... Pegasos989 really will choose the winner if he picks one of those.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Barbarian:Pegasos989 (32)
Bard:Leush (28 OR 32)
Cleric:Rigeld2 (Indifferent)
Druid:The_Werebear (28)
Fighter: Stickman (32)
Monk:Falconsflight (Elite)
Paladin:The White Knight (28 OR 32)
Ranger:Draz74 (28)
Rogue: Hamster Ninja (Indifferent)
Sorcerer:Bobbis (Indifferent)
Wizard:Jade_Tarem (Elite OR 32)

Stat generation will be
32 point buy

On top of this you get 2 ability increases, one for the 4th and and one for 8th HD.



The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 25 % (12250) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- No Custom items

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you
take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil changed to Smite opponent.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any bonus feats and skill ranks you can freely choose for the animal.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena: Map-makers wanted
Know map, but Fog of War

[Draz74]

Yeah, I was going to ask about what effects are allowed to be active when the battle started, but you beat me to that one. :smallcool:

Add to "Rules": No custom items.

2 more questions: I assume one-use items, like scrolls, are also replenished between battles?

Are Psionic items and feats from the SRD allowed? (Yes, it is important. I will use a Psionic item if I can.)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Updated.

All used items are replenished.

No Psionics (Only PHB, MM and DMG)

[PinkysBrain]

For the love of god, put a caster level limit on single use items ... or this will turn into a useless exercise of fights by proxy (20 HD outsiders battling it out).

[Draz74]

For the love of god, put a caster level limit on single use items ... or this will turn into a useless exercise of fights by proxy (20 HD outsiders battling it out).

Agreed (but then again, I still think Polymorph should be banned).

Hmmm, the 12250 gp-per-item limit is kind of harsh when it comes to magic weapons and the classes that rely on them ... a mere +3-equivalent weapon isn't allowed to any of the melee classes? (A +1 Unholy weapon, or a +1 Flaming Shock weapon doesn't seem too rediculous for 10th-level play.) Could we increase this limit to 19000 gp-per-item?

Edit: One more question: do prepared casters get to re-pick their spells prepared before each duel? (If so, we definitely need to enforce the Wizard's known spells as part of his Wealth total.)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

For the love of god, put a caster level limit on single use items ... or this will turn into a useless exercise of fights by proxy (20 HD outsiders battling it out).

Updated.

THAT was a very good suggestion, thank you.

Max CL 10

[PinkysBrain]

BTW, I think players should be able to buy spellcasting services ... including during the pre-combat buffing round(s). (Polymorph for everyone.)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

There will be no pre-combat buffing rounds and since polymorph is a 1 min /level you cannot start out as polymorphed.

Note that polymorph is restricted to MM and any form requires a previous Knowledge check to be known to the caster.

You can memorize new spells for each combat and costs of spells scribed will be deducted.

I do not have a problem with a 50 % of total wealth per item rule, I just took what was already there.
This is certainly up for discussion.

[Falconsflight]

Wait, explain to me again why wizards area allowed to change their spells between fights? does this apply to other spellcasters? (I have never really played a wizard and never really looked up how they work... so enlighten me)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

We are not talking about switching spells in the spell book, but simply memorizing new ones from the spell book.
All other non-spontaneous casters can of course also memorize new spells.



We should also discuss the application of Item Creation feats.
Available? And if so, how much XP can be spend on that account?

[Falconsflight]

...Umm, If I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Item Creation Feats allow you to create items... within game? So... I highly doubt their use, unless someone wants to fashion a potion in the few moments before the other person casts their spells.

Also, are we doing 25% or 50? I mean for hte magic Items.

[PinkysBrain]

As I see it there are a couple of fair'ish ways of squaring people off in the arena ...

1. in melee range, possible even standing next to eachother.

2. so far out of each other's line of effect that even after a single move action no spell (even widened) can affect the other.

3. in semi-random spots on a map out of each other's line of effect without the possibility to survey all the other possible positions with a single move action.

I'd favor #2, and I liked the previous suggestion of having a forest in the middle ... a huge cavern with a big forest of dimly glowing mushrooms (low light conditions in the arena) in the center growing all the way to the roof (so you can't just fly over it using an item and still get a spell off).

[The White Knight]

For the love of god, put a caster level limit on single use items ... or this will turn into a useless exercise of fights by proxy (20 HD outsiders battling it out).

I choose you, Glabrezu! *poke ball noise*

Gla-ba, Gla-ba. Zuuuuuu!

*screams*

...

I... I'm sorry.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

There is no doubt in my mind that they should start out of each others sight (and out of line of effect, assuming starting positions are known.)

I also like the forrest idea.


Updated the rules:
- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any bonus feats and skill ranks you can freely choose for the animal.

[Draz74]

I like the cave idea. The forest-within-cave idea is fine with me too.

Edit: The new rule still leaves the question of whether new animal companions can be found in preparation for each duel.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I like the cave idea. The forest-within-cave idea is fine with me too.

Edit: The new rule still leaves the question of whether new animal companions can be found in preparation for each duel.

I elaborated on this in a PM to you :smallsmile:

[StickMan]

I like the idea of small forest and a small cave it will make this a little more fun. Hide and go Kill. And there should be trees or walls scattered outside the forest as well.

I don't think Druid/Ranger Animal companion should change between fight. Druid and Rangers would never change animal copanions like that and I some was to do so it would be only to incress there ability in a fight.

Last think I think we should all send our to Lord_Silvanos but not put them out publicly. There is no reason for evey one to know what feats and such other people have (Well once near the middle of the fights I'm sure it will be clear), I don't know a DM who would show you your opponant stats. I don't think we should. Just wanted to adress it.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Yes, I think we should keep stats and such a secret. That will make it more fun and realistic.

On the Animal Companion thing:
Animals are viewed as "loyal companions", so I think changing them between every fight fits the theme poorly.

It only takes 24 hours to call a new one so if you insist on doing so I think it should be allowed.

However, training an animal takes a week per trick, which there is not time for, so the animal would only know the bonus tricks determined by the Druid level equivalent. (Bonus tricks do not require training)

****************************
Reposting the rules

The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 30 % (14700) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- No Custom items (This includes wands and other items that are not fully charged or have less uses/day etc.)

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you
take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil:
Changed to Smite opponent.
Mount:
The special mounts listed in the DMG are also available.
Typical for its kind, but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena: Map-makers wanted
Know map, but Fog of War


***********************




I hope an inspired map maker is reading these posts;-)



EDIT:
- max 30 % (14700)

[Draz74]

Awww, dang. No partially-charged items? (Wands aren't a big deal ... but I was going to use something else partly charged.) Might I inquire why?
EDIT: This was more play-complaining. It's not really a problem, unlike the issue below.

I'm also finding a number of good items that are just above the 12250 limit. I'd really like to adjust this rule. I vote we bump the limit to 50% character wealth. (I don't mind less, even, if people would prefer it.)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

We are getting into custom territory if we allow it.
If you want few-use items use scrolls.

While resale price (from treasure) is based on number of charges left, such items are not generally available for purchase.

The contestants were not allowed to shop at the second-hand market. :-)



Another subject:
Do we allow special mounts for Paladins (DMG 204-205)?

[Jade_Tarem]

I don't see why we can't allow the Paladin special mount... it's as much of a draw for a paladin as animal companion is for druid, and it's as core as you can get. So long as it's in reason.

*Sigh*... figuring out scribing costs will be a pain in the butt... but I can see that it's a balance thing. I'm going to need multiple spellbooks too...

As for the one who asked... non-spontaneous casters should be able to rememorize spells between rounds because the big draw of a non-spontaneous caster over a spontaneous one is the ability to prepare for a known encounter and have the versatility to handle many different encounters. Leush and Bobbis are going to need to choose their spells known very carefully so that they can handle every situation they may face in the tournament. I have it easier in that sense as I can choose what spells I get to scribe free on level up, and then pick whatever other spells I want out of the PHB and scribe those as well, for a fee, and then change which spells I have prepared between fighting Stickman and, say, Rigeld2. Rigeld2 and The_Werebear have it even easier in that sense as they don't even have to pay for knowing all those divine spells. If the non-spon. casters don't have the opportunity to adjust thier spells memorized between fights then the sorcerer has a hard-edged advantage by virtue of having a spell list the same size and more spells per day.

Hope that helps...

Now for a question of my own... what are we doing about character generation? Are we going to post it under the character builder thread and have a gentleman's agreement not to look at each other's sheets, or is there something we do to submit it to Lord Silvanos only?

[StickMan]

Make are selfs and then submit. If you want to use charter builder thread thats fine I for one will not look.
I'm about 85% done with mine.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Now for a question of my own... what are we doing about character generation? Are we going to post it under the character builder thread and have a gentleman's agreement not to look at each other's sheets, or is there something we do to submit it to Lord Silvanos only?

I suggest you send it by PM or email to me.


Unresolved issues:

- Max Single item value: 25-50 %

- Item creation feats (I think Pegasos989 suggestion sounds sensible)

- Map

Anything else?

[Pegasos989]

I think paladin should be allowed his special mounts. They are core, not too overpowered, etc. and I can wait while the paladin tries to fly his griffon to my cave... (Hmm. That sounded a bit... Nevermind.)

EDIT: Oh, and my view on item creation would be that spellcasters could use it but have just enough exp for 10th level, so if they craft items, they have kinda crafted them on the 9th level and thus never advanced to 10th... (So a wizard 10 could instead be wizard 9 with his whole lot of the level's exp spent on crafting)

[The_Werebear]

I am in favor of boosting the max item price from 25% to 50%. Less items tend to hurt people more than they help them anyway.

I am in favor of allowing alternate mounts, so long as they follow the appropriate rules for it.

[Leush]

I really don't mind either way, I just can't seem to fnd a way to spend all that lovely gold...

[StickMan]

I am in favor of boosting the max item price from 25% to 50%. Less items tend to hurt people more than they help them anyway.

I am in favor of allowing alternate mounts, so long as they follow the appropriate rules for it.
Its not less items its just less jumbo kill items. I could see taking it up to 30 but I've never seen any PC find a magic item that takes up 50% of his gold. You don't gain magic items like that. You get a few slowly and that is why max gold goes up the way it does.

Paladins should be able to use mounts as rules are writen.

[Jade_Tarem]

Thanks for answering so quickly. Sad day though... my finals are this week and I won't be able to finish my character until Saturday afternoon. It will be done Sat. though.

[StickMan]

Does any one know the web site that hosts the online charater sheets.

[Falconsflight]

I do, It's another message board, But it's What I use.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/
You register, then select RPG tools, and "Character sheet" and viola a character sheet maker that you can link people to see your sheets.


So what is 30% and can we use it? I'm
(you have no idea how annoying it is when you see a really good item and it's only out of your grasp by a measly 750 gold.)

[The White Knight]

Should we perhaps relocate this to the PbP OOC forum?

[Rigeld2]

Thanks for answering so quickly. Sad day though... my finals are this week and I won't be able to finish my character until Saturday afternoon. It will be done Sat. though.
QFT
rjweofjweiofp

[StickMan]

I don't think till we start play by post but I'm not sure.

[Draz74]

I suggest you send it by PM or email to me.

Unresolved issues:

- Max Single item value: 25-50 %

- Item creation feats (I think Pegasos989 suggestion sounds sensible)

- Map


If anyone objects to 30% gold (which is 14700), they haven't voiced it. I could argue why it should still be higher, but meh, 30% will get me what I really need. I think this is a consensus, but maybe someone hasn't been able to check this discussion during the day and will raise an argument still. In which case you can Rule 0 it. :smallbiggrin:

I'm in favor of Pegasos989's suggestion about Item Crafting, totally. (Does crafting an item yourself raise the max-gold-per-item limit?)

[Golthur]

I don't think till we start play by post but I'm not sure.
Well, make sure to let us lurkers know where it's moved to, once you start PbP.

I'm infinitely curious to see how this all pans out. :amused:

* Resumes lurking.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm in favor of Pegasos989's suggestion about Item Crafting, totally. (Does crafting an item yourself raise the max-gold-per-item limit?)
Items you craft yourself are worth 1/2 so they technically raise it.

[StickMan]

One the one hand if spell casters do that the use a feat and would not have the xp to be lvl 10 on the other hand they could have twice as many items. I realy don't think the use of Item creation should be used for this.
Twice as many magic items is more than a level as far as things go. Just my vote.
I've played an artificer in an ebberon game and the item creation I did realy suped out the party.

[Jade_Tarem]

Isn't that the point of the artificer? :P

[deadseashoals]

Just a thought, you might want to restrict the spell and/or caster level on scrolls, or else things could get pretty out of hand. You also probably want to ban this item:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation

[StickMan]

Yes but my point is here when you can load up on magic items you can realy overpower a charater when comparied to a none loaded up Charater. Caster who do that will have a big advantage in this. The point of this is to see some what who will win in a fight were one class does not have a advantage.

Deadseashoals
We already thought of the CL thing are may CL for items it 10.

[Katonta]

I'd be willing to try my hand at map creation, I have a few good ideas and I think it sounds fun. Just one thing though, I need to know what some good mapmaking programs are. You guys can figure out the tech stuff, such as mushroom glow, and hopefully, I'll get a map that everyone either likes or hates. Whichever comes first :smallbiggrin:

[StickMan]

You could use paint all you have to do realy is make a large grid and mark were things are. Make sure to mark were things are though don't just go here is a forest and color it green.

[Jade_Tarem]

Just a thought, you might want to restrict the spell and/or caster level on scrolls, or else things could get pretty out of hand. You also probably want to ban this item:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation


Stickman responded to this, but I think he was in a hurry because it's only semi-intelligible. His point was that candle of invocation and broken scrolls, while within our price range, have a prohibited Item CL (it's 17 for CoI). The limit on item CL is 10, which cuts out cheap-but-cheesey stuff, including scrolls above spell level 5.

[Katonta]

Thanks, Stickman, I've already started and have made the basic grid and a possible cave. All I really need is how high it should be and how big most people would prefer it. Right now I have 200ft by 180ft in 10ft squares. I'll need input on what sounds good. I'm definetely going to make a forest in the middle. Thanks for the sugestion on using paint btw, it works pretty well except for the fact that things are a bit big.

P.S. do you guys want traps? Or should it be trap free?

P.P.S. What should I do once I finnish the map?

[The_Werebear]

Any objections to me taking improved natural attack for one of the forms I can wildshape into?

Or, for that matter, multiattack, only useable when I am in a form that has multiple natural weapons?

Both are out of the Monster Manual. That's why I am checking.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Any objections to me taking improved natural attack for one of the forms I can wildshape into?

Or, for that matter, multiattack, only useable when I am in a form that has multiple natural weapons?

Both are out of the Monster Manual. That's why I am checking.

MM feats are all right as long as you meet the prerequisites when you take the feats.
You do not get Wildshape until 5th level so this is the point were you could start taking Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor, Multiattack, Ability Focus.

Ability Focus and INA are also viable options for a some of the Core classes.



Edit: Changed the item limit to 30 %

[StickMan]

Thanks, Stickman, I've already started and have made the basic grid and a possible cave. All I really need is how high it should be and how big most people would prefer it. Right now I have 200ft by 180ft in 10ft squares. I'll need input on what sounds good. I'm definetely going to make a forest in the middle. Thanks for the sugestion on using paint btw, it works pretty well except for the fact that things are a bit big.

P.S. do you guys want traps? Or should it be trap free?

P.P.S. What should I do once I finnish the map?

I would say that it should be trap free. The point of this is to see what the charaters can come up with on there own not, hey a rake hit me in the face. Though if the players set up traps thats up to them.

I Think that Magic Items will be ok, I should not be so aginst it as it is core. Rember though if you use it you will be starting at less than lvl 10 as are charters have only the Min XP. Beside all you sneaky mages will be dead befor you can use them. :)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Re-posting the rules


The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10 (45000 XP)

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 30 % (14700) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- Item Creation
Item Creation feats are allowed, but any XP-costs will reduce your level below 10.
Notice that this also reduces the maximum caster level of any items you make (unless you hire outside help with creation).

- No Custom items (This includes wands and other items that are not fully charged or have less uses/day etc.)

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil:
Changed to Smite opponent.
Mount:
The special mounts listed in the DMG are also available.
Typical for its kind, but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena: Map-makers wanted
Know map, but Fog of War








Added Item Creation.
This leaves us with no unresolved issues for now, except for the map.

If you have any questions do not hesitate to PM or email me.

[Katonta]

one question, how do I upload the map to my post? I've got it fineshed and colored, all it needs is approvel. It isn't exactly Leonardo Divinci work, but its the best I could do with paint.

[The_Werebear]

Hrm...

Ok, The PHB has Megaraptors listed as Huge Creatures, but the SRD has them at just Large. I am going to go with the SRD on this one, if no one objects.

[PinkysBrain]

The SRD includes the MM errata.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Character sheets are starting to arrive in my mailbox.

Remember to include prices and weight of equipment for each item, a total sum would be nice too.

You need to specify CL of all wands and scrolls

Thank you:)

I will try to get through them asap, but there are a few others things on the scheudle.


Edit: Note that potions weigh 1/10 lb, this might not be trivial for all.
Consider clothing, conditions in the arena might be chilly.
Rations weigh 1 lb (1/4 lb for small characters)
Casters should consider buying spell component pouches and also take note of any focus they might need.

[Draz74]

Edit: Note that potions weigh 1/10 lb, this might not be trivial for all.
Consider clothing, conditions in the arena might be chilly.
Rations weigh 1 lb (1/4 lb for small characters)
Casters should consider buying spell component pouches and also take note of any focus they might need.

All of which is good reminders, except: why would anyone bother with rations for a 1-on-1 duel where they will simply be fighting a battle?

Also, to what extent does armor count as wearing warm clothing? An ordinary set of clothing doesn't count against encumbrance, right?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

All of which is good reminders, except: why would anyone bother with rations for a 1-on-1 duel where they will simply be fighting a battle?

Let me just say that these reminders were not something I just spontaneously came up with (although had I know that people was unaware of potion weight I would have printed that in bold somewhere) and I am not to speculate on what kind of strategy these contestants might have chosen that include rations.

One can however hope that any strategy that happens to include rations will NOT require me to oversee a battle lasting more than 14400 rounds.


Also, to what extent does armor count as wearing warm clothing? An ordinary set of clothing doesn't count against encumbrance, right?

My concern were more for the audience if the characters decided to show up naked, which it seemed some of them intended/intends.

All equipment, "...items, including armor, weapons, and gear", counts towards total weight, so I think it is reasonable to exclude clothing from effecting encumbrance.

[Falconsflight]

I thought clothing was assumed. I hope you don't expect us to buy any. Otherwise, I'm going naked except for my magic items. now way am I going to not buy something because I had ot pay 2 gold on a set of clothing. when it has no affect on combat or the likes.
Unless you mean extra clothing, in which case I have gear and the fire in my heart to keep me warm.

[Jade_Tarem]

No one wants to see a naked gnome. Not even another gnome.

Isn't specifying potion, scroll, and wand CL redundant? Those items are the minimum CL required to cast the effect that they contain. Flamestrike wand is CL 9 and admissable, for example, whereas scroll of disintegrate, at CL 11, is not. While it is possible to get the CL higher, this would count as "custom gear" and therefore be ruled out.

Wow, is it going to be a random weather effect each time we go in? That would be frikkin' sweet, but i shudder (pardon the impending pun) to think of the concentration checks ima have to make to cast in a blizzard or what have you. And I would just feel plain sorry for whatever two saps draw "tornado..."

[Katonta]

That's a good idea! Although my map will (hopefully) be chosen to be used (if I can figure out how to post my map) that will be all. If my map does get chosen, and you do random weather effects, I can just see a Barb. and a Sorcerer dukeing it out on a rope bridge, in the middle of a raging tornado. That would just be so very fun to watch.

[Leush]

Well... I thought that having armor on would mean that no one would have to see a naked gnome...

However, I fear no clothes for I am a paladin...

And random weather would be sweet, whether it kills me or not, although it wouldn't really be a fair test of the class...

[PinkysBrain]

All equipment, "...items, including armor, weapons, and gear", counts towards total weight, so I think it is reasonable to exclude clothing from effecting encumbrance.
I can't find it in the SRD ... but in the PHB page 131 it actually says explicitly that your first outfit is both free and doesn't count towards your encumbrance. It isn't just reasonable, it's the rules ;)

Hmm, never considered this ... but giving your character a royal outfit is actually a pretty good way to get an extra hundred gp for your first level character :)

[Jade_Tarem]

Well... I thought that having armor on would mean that no one would have to see a naked gnome...

However, I fear no clothes for I am a paladin...

And random weather would be sweet, whether it kills me or not, although it wouldn't really be a fair test of the class...

It would be fair enough, unless you're trying to cast in a raging storm. Any weather table would be weighted as sunny days are far more common than F5 Tornados. Still, even a light rainfall would mess with things like listen checks, which is what makes it interesting. The terrain is factored into the weights on the table, with "snow" increasing in probability in a mountaintop setting. The real difficulty is when you roll that .1% chance for "volcanic eruption + tsunami."


I can't find it in the SRD ... but in the PHB page 131 it actually says explicitly that your first outfit is both free and doesn't count towards your encumbrance. It isn't just reasonable, it's the rules ;)

Hmm, never considered this ... but giving your character a royal outfit is actually a pretty good way to get an extra hundred gp for your first level character :)

And make your character a target for thieves and police wanting to arrest you for impersonating nobility. :P

[StickMan]

One can however hope that any strategy that happens to include rations will NOT require me to oversee a battle lasting more than 14400 rounds.


As the other DM for this I have to agree. But if it happens we can take turns. I'll sit and be board you'll sit and be Board, will sit together board. Then will creat a murder suicide pact. You know we kill the PC who pulled this and make it look like a suicide. :smallsmile:

I just relized we should realy find anther DM, I can't fairly DM a match unless i've already fougth both People. I should be able to fight soon and get mine done fast but still.

I may sig this.

[Jade_Tarem]

What if it ends up being murder on the orient express? What if all the players conspire to engage in ration wars? Sorry, it's late and I'm fried on exams...

[The White Knight]

While it is possible to get the CL higher, this would count as "custom gear" and therefore be ruled out.

Zuh? Isn't that a bit nitpicky? I'd hardly call a scroll, potion, or wand of a higher-than-minimal CL "custom"; it seems pretty *standard* to me. Silvanos? What's your word here?

[PinkysBrain]

I don't think the CL limit should go for non charged items BTW.

In fact most non charged items don't really have a CL as such, the CL entries in the DMG are merely suggestions and nothing more.

[TheOOB]

Don't suppose you need another sorcerer, I won the '05 Penny Arcade Expo Open Duels with a sorcerer character.

[StickMan]

PLZ READ
I am here by with drawing my self from the compition. I'm starting to go mad trying to come up with a figher build to win this thing it 2AM now and I can't sleep and I have to be up at 6AM so this is no good. I've been thinking and I would rather go back to DM this along with Lord_Silvanos. Also I plan to be working on a few other things for this such as starting a thread in The Town in wich I will be acting as a commentator to discribe the fight.

This means that if you send somthing to Lord_Silvanos PLZ send it to me as well.

As such if anyone wants the spot of Fighter you can have it.

[Jade_Tarem]

DMG, Page 238:


Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll.

The wands come with varying CL's attached. I.e. Fireball (5).

Potions are also specified with an effect, which can be used to determine caster level.

L. Silvanos is, of course, free to change that as he likes, as is Stickman, but the standard issue wand from ye olde magic shoppe was made by the lowest bidder - the PC's have to specifically ask a wizard to scribe/craft/brew at a higher CL if they want one... which is why I said custom. Of course, if Silvanos or Stickman OK's it, it's ok.

[Pegasos989]

I can't find it in the SRD ... but in the PHB page 131 it actually says explicitly that your first outfit is both free and doesn't count towards your encumbrance. It isn't just reasonable, it's the rules ;)

Hmm, never considered this ... but giving your character a royal outfit is actually a pretty good way to get an extra hundred gp for your first level character :)

Except that it can only be one of the less than 10gp outfits specified right in the previous sentence.

EDIT: BTW, will players know what class the other is or is he only given information bases on what his character sees? So, will they know if I am ranger, fighter, barbarian...?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I can't find it in the SRD ... but in the PHB page 131 it actually says explicitly that your first outfit is both free and doesn't count towards your encumbrance. It isn't just reasonable, it's the rules ;)

Hmm, never considered this ... but giving your character a royal outfit is actually a pretty good way to get an extra hundred gp for your first level character :)

Yes, I thought I remembered that too, but I am away from my PHB at the moment so I wrote it a bit more cryptic.

And thanks to Pegasos for pointing out the gp limit, I certainly did remember that, since you are not the first to think of that.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I don't think the CL limit should go for non charged items BTW.

In fact most non charged items don't really have a CL as such, the CL entries in the DMG are merely suggestions and nothing more.

Yes, but there are a few cheesy one-use items with a CL above 10, that would be really overpowering for something like this.
That is why we said CL 10 across the board.

[JimmyDPawn]

I'm sorry to interupt all this brainstorming, but I don't believe this was ased earlier, and I was wondering. Would you be willing to put out a link to these battles, so other people can see how they turn out? I'm curious as to the results, and how people plan to build chars.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I'm sorry to interupt all this brainstorming, but I don't believe this was ased earlier, and I was wondering. Would you be willing to put out a link to these battles, so other people can see how they turn out? I'm curious as to the results, and how people plan to build chars.

We certainly will.:smallsmile:



On another note:

Specifying CL for scrolls and such is redundant since we use the "no custom item"-rule in the strictest sense, only listed items allowed, no CL changes allowed.
I still requested it since it makes checking things easier and it hopefully helps people to not make mistakes.




EDIT: BTW, will players know what class the other is or is he only given information bases on what his character sees? So, will they know if I am ranger, fighter, barbarian...?

I think it will be difficult to hide class.
But other than that information will only be given on a need to know basis.

We might have to run the first few rounds of combat away from the boards so people do not act on information they do not have.



Since Stickman has retired from participating on the inside of the arena:
Anyone wants to be a figther?

[PinkysBrain]

Yes, but there are a few cheesy one-use items with a CL above 10, that would be really overpowering for something like this.
That is why we said CL 10 across the board.

That is non-sequitur .... you did not actually give a reason to forbid higher than CL10 across the board, you only gave a reason to forbid higher than CL10 single use items :) Just forbid higher than CL10 charged items specifically, it makes more sense.

I'll play the Fighter :)

PS. are we agreed that the map should not allow for a single move + spell casting combo? (Not even with a broom of flying or something and widened area spells.) Otherwise the spell casters are hugely advantaged, it would even be more fair to simply start within a 5 foot step range ... and that's saying something.

[StickMan]

I'm sorry to interupt all this brainstorming, but I don't believe this was ased earlier, and I was wondering. Would you be willing to put out a link to these battles, so other people can see how they turn out? I'm curious as to the results, and how people plan to build chars.

I plan to run a tread in the town in which myself and/or someone else will be announcing the fights as they go. A lot like listening to baseball on the radio back before TV. Also we plan to conduct most of these fights on the play by post board. Though we have not yet worked out how we are going to run the fight before the PCs see each other. This is part of the reason I wan to run a thread in the town in wich I announcing the fight once its over so every one can see the details.

there are many reasons we band CL10 or higher effects. First CL 10 is the highest level of any PC, we do not feel that the Players should be using effects over there Level. Second many items higher that CL 10 alow for long term summons of high power creatures and we do not feel this fight should be entirely desided by summoned monsters. 3rd there are many single use Items of above this LVL that would go out side the power level of what the Players should be at, due in part because these items will regenerate, wich they are not ment to do at the start of each fight as we have set in the rules. Lastly Rule 0 we are the CoDMs if you don't like it than nanner-nanner boo-boo.

Last the map is (hopfully) going to be set up so the players are seperated by a forest that also has at least one cave. This is set up to prent flying doom.

[Katonta]

Last the map is (hopfully) going to be set up so the players are seperated by a forest that also has at least one cave. This is set up to prent flying doom.

I could show what I've cooked up for the map, but I don't know how to upload it to my post. All help would be greatly appreciated.

[PinkysBrain]

Lastly Rule 0 we are the CoDMs if you don't like it than nanner-nanner boo-boo.
That's a good reason at least ... shame, that leaves out almost any way to fix the fighters and barbarian perception issues :/

[Ashes]

I could show what I've cooked up for the map, but I don't know how to upload it to my post. All help would be greatly appreciated.

Couldn't you just find a place to host it ( www.imageshack.com ?) and then insert it in your post via the clever little Insert Image tag?

[The White Knight]

Sheet almost done. Just fixing expenditures to account for the inability for me to have purchased some of the scrolls I had.

[PinkysBrain]

Are the way previous battles have been fought considered in game knowledge?

[StickMan]

Are the way previous battles have been fought considered in game knowledge?

Well their realy is no way to stop it as the fights will be posted. But at the same time I would hope that people are coming up with plans that will prepare them for everyone.

Also I would like to ask that if everyone can plz come up with a history for you charaters. This is not required but I plan to give this information during the fights as fun little tidbits in my posts in the town.

[Jade_Tarem]

Character done!

[Katonta]

Couldn't you just find a place to host it ( www.imageshack.com (http://www.imageshack.com) ?) and then insert it in your post via the clever little Insert Image tag?

Thanks! Here's what I cooked up. These are 10ft squares.

http://123pichosting.com/images/218Map.PNG

And the Key, the white is snow, the bridge is a rope bridge.
http://123pichosting.com/images/252Key.PNG

[PinkysBrain]

Well their realy is no way to stop it as the fights will be posted.
If this is going to be played on a normal PbP thread we have to rely on a honor system anyway during the game.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

If this is going to be played on a normal PbP thread we have to rely on a honor system anyway during the game.

Yes, unless we come up with something else.
Honor is good, but inability to cheat is better.

[PinkysBrain]

Can I enter the arena with a light warhorse? (Paying for it of course.)

ps. sorry, for the barrage of questions.

[Rigeld2]

I'm waffling between 3 different concepts. Its annoying. Do we have a time limit? Am I the last one to have a sheet in? Will the world continue turning if Bobby doesnt get his Ferrari back?

Tune in next post!

[StickMan]

Yes, unless we come up with something else.
Honor is good, but inability to cheat is better.

If we can come up with somthing it would be good. I hope Honor system will work.

Don't worry about time this is going to take awhile to sort out anyway.

Reminder Plz be send any thing you send to Lord_Silvanos to me as well.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Can I enter the arena with a light warhorse? (Paying for it of course.)

ps. sorry, for the barrage of questions.

Certainly.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I'm waffling between 3 different concepts. Its annoying. Do we have a time limit? Am I the last one to have a sheet in? Will the world continue turning if Bobby doesnt get his Ferrari back?

Tune in next post!

Not at the moment,
No,
I am pretty sure taht those two events are unrelated.

And when in doubt about waffles, choose pancakes.

[Leush]

You can avoid people spying by having all fights at the same time. It would be complete and utter total insanity, but heh! It is insane... trying to prevent cheating.

As for backstory! It shall be done! I may not pwn on the battlefield, but I shall pwn on the front of the backstory.... Also when in term of the time of the year will this take place.. I was hoping either before 15th dec, or after 1st of Jan.. cos other otherwise I have a problem...

[StickMan]

So far we have figured this is going to take a great deal of time. We have to work out 55 fights over multiple time zones with people that have school or jobs.:smalleek: It sould be interesting.:smallcool:

[The White Knight]

A great big map

So this map is outdoors then, ie, no ceiling?


What do you all say to having a free-for-all battle with everyone involved after the tournament is over? A last (wo)man standing battle, just for fun?

[PinkysBrain]

Last man standing is no fun at all, that is a coward's battle ... most kills is what is important.

[The White Knight]

Work out a point system, perhaps? We can cross that bridge later; there's lots to do in the meantime.

[Katonta]

So this map is outdoors then, ie, no ceiling?


My map is indoors, otherwise all the wacky climates wouldn't be able to happen, The towers are basically giant pillars that keep the ceiling up with doors near the top so that you can traverse from tower to tower. The ceiling is about 80 - 100ft tall, the towers are so that the mages can't just fly to the top of the arena and bomb you from above. Now, you actually have a chance to hit them.

[martyboy74]

How does one ascend the towers? And how long does it take?

[Katonta]

You would ascend the towers through an opening in the bottom of the tower, a big door, and you climb the stairs that are in the towers. The stairs are just basic stairs. At the top of the stairs, about 10 - 15ft from the top of the arena, there are 2 more doors that open to platforms outside the tower where there is a rope bridge that takes you to the next tower. Assuming the arena is 100ft tall, for the average human going 20ft per round, 4-5 rounds if you open the door to the outside bridge

[The White Knight]

That's a lot of buff/prep time.

[Pegasos989]

That's a lot of buff/prep time.


I really need it.


And I am the barbarian. :D

[PinkysBrain]

I don't expect anyone to walk ... the whole "fighting on a rope bridge" thing is romantic and all, but it ain't how things work out in D&D. If you are flying you don't care about all that jazz, if you aren't flying you don't want to be caught in that situation.

[Leush]

Unless you have high balance and your opponent is a melee type who doesn't andcan't aim for peanuts has ran out of ammunition.

[Katonta]

Oops, I forgot about being able to move twice if you just move :smalleek:. so it would really be 2-3 rounds. If running

[Jade_Tarem]

Yes, unless we come up with something else.
Honor is good, but inability to cheat is better.

Then how about we send our actions to you or Stickman through the PM system? Stickman is already working on a "commentator" thread in the main chat forum or what have you (unless he gave up when I wasn't looking) and as such will be reporting what a virtual audience would "see" right?

I.e.
Stickman: "And in response to Pegasos flying into a rage, Bobbis casts a spell and suddenly soars up into the air!"

One could do something similar to the players, also by private message. "You see Leush move into the tower, but he doesn't come out at the top." This lets us know what our character would see, and now we don't know that Leush is casting illusions like they're going out of style. The other players, those not involved in duels at that time, would be able to watch via the commentator thread, just like inactive contestants would be able to be part of the crowd at a real tournament.

Just a thought.

Also, was the weather idea scrapped or approved? Or was it modified to have weather appropriate for the terrain type? "There's a sandstorm five feet away from you. In the forest where you're standing, there's a heavy rainfall." It's kinda strange, but about as fun as blizzard for everyone! If there's to be weather at all, that is..

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I think having random weather effects would make things a lot more interesting. If the battlefield spans several different terrain types that would have different effects, sandstorm, snowstorm etc.

[Yahzi]

I think I speak for all the lurkers here when I say...

Less yakking. More killing!

:D

I'm really eager to see the round-by-round for all of this.

[Logic]

Last man standing is no fun at all, that is a coward's battle ... most kills is what is important.
I suggest you read The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

[Jade_Tarem]

I think I speak for all the lurkers here when I say...

Less yakking. More killing!

:D

I'm really eager to see the round-by-round for all of this.

Well, look at it from the player's perspective: everyone on this forum, everyone who will possibly see this fight, has set expectations for performance for this character or that. It's up to the players to build a character that will meet those expectations or they'll be forever known as "that guy who let his X lose in the first round of combat." While everyone's trying to have fun with this, it's lurking on everyone's mind and they're trying to make good characters so that no one's disapointed. The DMs have even more to do, making a fair map, a fair situation, a fair ruleset, and double-checking each player's character to make sure no mistakes were made.

The fight will doubtless start soon. Glad to know someone's excited about it.

[Rigeld2]

Yeah.. It's tough making a cleric I can have fun with, that is different from the norm, that isnt crappy.

I think I got it tho.

[Medieve]

Just a wave. I'm interesting in producing your arena, but seeing how you are now on the sixth page of the topic, I wanted to ask if that was still necessary.

[StickMan]

Katonta has made one map already (see the end of page 5), but if you would like you may as well and we could vote on wich to use.

[Draz74]

I'm waffling between 3 different concepts. Its annoying. Do we have a time limit? Am I the last one to have a sheet in?

Tune in next post!

No, my sheet still isn't in yet either. It's mostly done, but I need to make some tweaks after StickMan returns a Private Message with a question I had in it. (It's the one LSilvanos forwarded you, StickMan -- the question of how to interperet the Quick Draw feat. Silvanos gave me an answer, but he said it was still partly dependent on your opinion.)

[jlousivy]

It might be a good idea to have the casters have a set-prepared spell list
ie: they PM the DM their spells prepared and they must use that set throughout the whole tournament (to avoid the wizard optimizing his/her spells dependant on the encounter)

[Rigeld2]

I think it was stated we could change spells out if we wanted.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

No, my sheet still isn't in yet either. It's mostly done, but I need to make some tweaks after StickMan returns a Private Message with a question I had in it. (It's the one LSilvanos forwarded you, StickMan -- the question of how to interperet the Quick Draw feat. Silvanos gave me an answer, but he said it was still partly dependent on your opinion.)

It is not a matter of interpretation, the RAW is clear.

It is a question on whether to houserule, which we have not really been that big on.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It might be a good idea to have the casters have a set-prepared spell list
ie: they PM the DM their spells prepared and they must use that set throughout the whole tournament (to avoid the wizard optimizing his/her spells dependant on the encounter)

The spell list is prepared before each match.
This is the core of the difference between spontaneous and non-spontaneous casters.

The warrior may also start switch between having his Greatclub or Sling prepared before each match.

[StickMan]

I have yet to get a Private message about Quickdraw if you could forward it to me that would be fine.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It is in your inbox.

Mine is over 90 % full :s

[StickMan]

First of all I love your new avatar Silvanos. I myself am trying to get mine modifed for the Core Battle.

On the question of quickdraw the question was can it be used to draw items beside weapons. The big problem with this feat is that it don't define what counts as a weapon. But page 113 of the players handbook says objects not crafted for combat can still be used as Improvised Weapons. So it would seem that any object that could hurt a person count as a weapon. There for it would seem that almost any Item can be drawn with the Quick Draw feat.



What did someone say somthing about lose interpretation of the rules.:smallbiggrin:

[jlousivy]

Granted he doesn't stand as great of a chance as say, a primary spellcaster, i really hope the rogue wins. SNEAK ATTACK FOR THE WIN!

[Rigeld2]

First of all I love your new avatar Silvanos. I myself am trying to get mine modifed for the Core Battle.

On the question of quickdraw the question was can it be used to draw items beside weapons. The big problem with this feat is that it don't define what counts as a weapon. But page 113 of the players handbook says objects not crafted for combat can still be used as Improvised Weapons. So it would seem that any object that could hurt a person count as a weapon. There for it would seem that almost any Item can be drawn with the Quick Draw feat.



What did someone say somthing about lose interpretation of the rules.:smallbiggrin:
See also, the FAQ:

Does drawing a wand from a wand sheath provoke
attacks of opportunity or can I draw it as if it were a
weapon? If I have Quick Draw, can I draw a wand as a free
action?
As described on page 142 of the Player’s Handbook, the
“draw a weapon” action also applies to weaponlike objects
carried in easy reach, such as wands. (The Sage would suggest
that magic rods and staffs also fall into this category.) Thus,
drawing a wand doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and a
character with Quick Draw could draw one as a free action.
Wands and rods (but not staffs) also fall into the category
of “light or one-handed weapons” for the purpose of drawing
them in conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (see
page 142 of the Player’s Handbook).

[Draz74]

Sweet ... I don't have to hope for a house rule after all. Good Spot checks, StickMan and Rigeld2.

Now, I just need to comprehend the basic idea of the map and make sure whether I need to tweak my build for it ... how high up is the bride? How high up is the roof? Where on the map are the characters starting (or are we not supposed to know that)?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

First of all I love your new avatar Silvanos. I myself am trying to get mine modifed for the Core Battle.

Thank you:smallsmile:



On the question of quickdraw the question was can it be used to draw items beside weapons. The big problem with this feat is that it don't define what counts as a weapon. But page 113 of the players handbook says objects not crafted for combat can still be used as Improvised Weapons. So it would seem that any object that could hurt a person count as a weapon. There for it would seem that almost any Item can be drawn with the Quick Draw feat.


Weapons are, however, well-defined other places, namely the Equipment section.
Improvised weapons are objects not intended to be used as weapons.

Already here we would have to apply a very loose approach to allow Improvised weapons to count as weapons for the purpose of feats and other effects.

Taking this a step further; for an object to be used as an improvised weapon we would have to compare "size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match".

Under what conditions would you have a twig, toothpick, paper or parchment count as an improvised weapon???



Having said that; I think it makes for a reasonable houserule:

Quick Draw

Quick Draw can be used to draw any object that is easy to reach and retrieve with your hands.

Anyone who wants to use Quick Draw to draw anything but weapons must be extra specific about having these objects in their belt or somewhere they can easily reach.
They cannot be hidden in pouches or anything like that.

Note that objects in your belt etc. that can be quickly drawn are subject to sunder and disarm attempts.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Re-posting the rules


The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10 (45000 XP)

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 30 % (14700) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- Item Creation
Item Creation feats are allowed, but any XP-costs will reduce your level below 10.
Notice that this also reduces the maximum caster level of any items you make (unless you hire outside help with creation).

- No Custom items (This includes wands and other items that are not fully charged or have less uses/day etc.)

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil:
Changed to Smite opponent.
Mount:
The special mounts listed in the DMG are also available.
Typical for its kind, but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Quick Draw:
Quick Draw can be used to draw any object that is easy to reach and retrieve with your hands.
Anyone who wants to use Quick Draw to draw anything but weapons must be extra specific about having these objects in their belt or somewhere they can easily reach.
They cannot be hidden in pouches or anything like that.
Note that objects in your belt etc. that can be quickly drawn are subject to sunder and disarm attempts.
As a result of this it is also possible to retrieve ONE (two if you have TWF) easy-to-reach item as part of movement.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena:
Know Maps (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1927747&postcount=323), but Fog of War




Approved characters:
Druid: The_Werebear
Monk: Falconsflight
Bard: Leush
Paladin: The White Knight
Ranger: Draz74
Wizard: Jade_Tarem
Cleric: Rigeld2
Fighter: PinkysBrain
Sorcerer: katonta
Barbarian:Raool
Rogue:Hamster_Ninja



If you want to make any changes to your approved character you can do it until some time before the first battle.

You have to let us know before you change anything, so it is easy for us to track any changes and re-approve them.



Substitues
1. M0rt (all)
2. endersdouble (Wiz/Sor/Clr/Drd/Bard)
3. crazedloon (all)
4. Just Alex (all)
5. Truffles (all, but strong preference for Sorcerer)
6. Quietus (all)
7. The Vorpal Tribble (all?)


DM-Backup
enderrocksonall
Truffles
Quietus
Piccamo

If anyone has expressed an interest in participating and have not been put on the list please let me know and I will correct the error asap.

[Katonta]

Now, I just need to comprehend the basic idea of the map and make sure whether I need to tweak my build for it ... how high up is the bride?

The bridge is at the same height as the door, so about 85ft up. It slopes slowly downwards as you leave the tower and back up as you near the next thing holding it up. Sort of like a telephone line.


How high up is the roof?

The roof is 100 ft tall.


Where on the map are the characters starting (or are we not supposed to know that)?

You start where the DM wants you to :smallbiggrin:.

[Jade_Tarem]

sounds pretty sweet

Is protection from good/evil/law/chaos changed to protection from opponent?

[Draz74]

The roof is 100 ft tall.


Huh. I thought the point of having the battle in a cave was to keep flight from being too big an advantage ... well, so much for that. I'll adapt.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

2 down, 9 to go.

[Leush]

I'm ready appart from a good backstory..... Ah the moment the backstory needs work on... After all can't beat anyone without a good few pages, eh?

[Pegasos989]

sounds pretty sweet

Is protection from good/evil/law/chaos changed to protection from opponent?

I personally think it shouldn't be. We should just keep spells as they are (and they are fine as such.

Some classes need to be some alignments, others have other reasons. Everyone has alignment. No need to start houseruling currently strong spells or abilities to more powerful ones.

Or atleast rise the spell level!

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Is protection from good/evil/law/chaos changed to protection from opponent?

Only the Paladin's Smite ability has been changed, everything else works as is. (unless otherwise noted)

And if you choose to be LG the Paladin is not going to fall just because he tries to kill you. :smalltongue:

[Rigeld2]

Durn! It! Characters!

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I'm ready appart from a good backstory..... Ah the moment the backstory needs work on... After all can't beat anyone without a good few pages, eh?

Does that mean that I can scrutinize the crunch?

It would be nice with back stories:)

[PinkysBrain]

Personally I wanted it to be in a cave to preclude first round kills (or disabling spells, same thing in 1 on 1). Because I consider that lame, if spells can kill on the first round then melee attacks should be able to do the same ... it's only just. Let's just forget about a map in that case and start in 5 foot step range.

Katonta, how can you call that map fair? A wizard could come and try to magic jar me and throw up an obscuring mist or silent image if that fails all in the first round if he wins initiative ... best I could do offensively in the first round is make a single ranged attack if I win (and be subject to another spell afterwards). He gets initiative for the win, I get initiative for the not lose ...

[Dizlag]

Here's an arena I tossed together for you all to decide on.

http://static.flickr.com/142/320732598_e10c3f487a_o_d.jpg
<edit> Figured out the linky for the image! w00t!

Enjoy!

Dizlag

p.s. The red Xs can be places to start. The illumination in here can be whatever you all like and regardless, there will be plenty of shadows from the pillars, stone ring, and trees to hide. And to Leuch, no problem to add boulders and rocks for other places to hide as well. =)

[Leush]

The bard is ready! At last. Oh and I like the first arena more. You can't hide in the second more, which is fine for some people, but since bards are sneaky, and I want to win, I favour the first.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Approved characters 4/11:
Druid: The_Werebear
Monk: Falconsflight
Bard: Leush
Paladin: The White Knight



If you want to make any changes to your approved character you can do it until some time before the first battle.

You have to let us know before you change anything, so it is easy for us to track any changes and re-approve them.

[PinkysBrain]

People are putting a whole lot of time in maps based on rather romantic notions of on foot melee combat rather than the realities of a core game duel. Which is to say that there is mostly ranged combat, with win/loss often determined by a single spell when the casters get involved. I think the DMs should really formulate some ground rules, or we will end up with a map which hopelessly advantages the casters. They don't need more advantages.

Personally I think maps should obey this simple rule :

People should not be able to affect their opponent with a spell or attack in the first round.

Without difficult terrain that means any spot from which you can view the other's starting position has to be a whopping 120 feet away from your own starting position (twice the speed of a horse). Even then starting position should provide enough cover you can't simply throw a (widened) area of effect spell at him. For flight you need less of a safety margin, 80 feet (twice the speed of a bat).

[The_Werebear]

Hate to say it, but you are going to have to be over 200 feet for that to happen.

Probably over 300. Maybe even more.

[Katonta]

Katonta, how can you call that map fair? A wizard could come and try to magic jar me and throw up an obscuring mist or silent image if that fails all in the first round if he wins initiative ... best I could do offensively in the first round is make a single ranged attack if I win (and be subject to another spell afterwards). He gets initiative for the win, I get initiative for the not lose ...
How? How could he do that? I'm pretty sure you can't move twice and then cast a spell. Although I'm still pretty much learning, (not quite up to familarization with the rules, as in I don't know ALL of the rules to the point that I could recall them with a little bit of thought.) I just don't see how they could run, or fly, past a huge tree in the center of the map, especially if they don't know where their opponent is, and cast a spell all in turn 1. Please, explain to me how they could do that.

[PinkysBrain]

200 feet apart with either a dense forest or simply an object of 50+ feet radius in the middle should do it.

[PinkysBrain]

I'm pretty sure you can't move twice and then cast a spell.
You can while mounted.

"If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."

With 13 ranks to start that DC isn't a huge impediment at level 10.

For your map I was more concerned with flight though. A single 40 feet flying move could get you over the lesser trees and to the side of the massive one to get line of sight/effect to your opponent.

[Dizlag]

In the arena I posted, you could start the duelers in the corners of the map. They would be plenty far from each other and out of line of sight. The stairs in the middle of the map are about 50' diameter, no radius. Not big enough? We could make the arena bigger and taller with the stairs bigger too. The wizard or sorcerer wouldn't be able to toss out that one spell to turn the tide of the battle until he/she found his/her opponent. There is plenty of space for ranged combat on this map.

In katonta's map, the same thing ... you wouldn't be able to attack one another in the first round. And there is plenty of room to roam around.

Btw, what other maps have been suggested besides katonta's and mine? What other requirements are needed for this arena? What restrictions should to DMs put in place here? A full-round to prep, hide, and buff before moving or something?

Dizlag

[PinkysBrain]

Ick, just realized that having lots of living trees in the map presents a bit of a problem too ... which is to say tree stride, not only doesn't it take a standard action to transport you it's also 1 hour/level spell, so can even be active from the start.

[martyboy74]

Um, stay out of the forest when you're fighting the druid?

[PinkysBrain]

Just as long as it is possible to stay away from the trees and it is impossible for the druid to simply step across the entire map and blast you to kingdom come in the first round.

Since the spell is only usable with the type of tree you first step into the DM can ameliorate the problems with the spell simply by his choice of the types of trees.

[The White Knight]

I like the first map more. The second one has visual appeal (and it appeals to my obsessive desire for symmetry), but the first one is far more practical; it's wide open but has lots of opportunity for cover, it's got varying obstacles and terrain types... I wish there was a better way for melee builds to cope with flying wizards (offensively speaking, I mean), but I don't think there IS any way to do that, short of robbing them of the benefit of flight altogether, which I don't like either. Potions of Fly, I guess?


By the way, DMs, my sheet should be finalized now. I've made the purchasing changes you requested, Silvanos.

[Jade_Tarem]

First map gets my vote. The second has a gladiator-esque feel to it, but there's less in the way of flavorful effects and terrain considerations, plus a sorcerer with stoneshape can collapse the whole ring thingy :smallamused:. First one has a chance for the disadvantaged classes to even up the odds with terrain tactics (hiding in the forest or a tower, moving underwater or into a sandstorm) to use against casters, although I find the idea that 85' high rickety rope bridges will create an even advantage against fly to be a bit... odd.

Regardless, first map seems to be the more "fair" one, and the more fantastic one, and as we're in a fantasy setting...

[Falconsflight]

I agree, the first one had a better fantastical sense than this one.

Even though, I do want to play the gladiator arena just once. Fight a figther or whatever and when I win I go "Are you not entertained?!"... for fun.


Anyway, Yeah, first one is sooo much better to even it out versus spellcasters.

[Dizlag]

Here's a combination of the two maps. I felt a bit inspired and just wanted to toss out another option for you all.

The towers and walkways are made of stone, but they could be enchanted to resist the stoneshape spell ... or not. =)

The 4 towers in the corners (A, B, C, D) are 30' high. They have a floor at 10' that opens up into the 10' wide by 5' tall walkways. You can also go up to a landing 5' more feet up to walk on top of the walkways as well. I can see these walkways having arrow slits every 10' as well. The other 5 towers (E, F, G, H, I) are 20' high.

Just to be interesting, the starting spots should be the bottom floor of a random tower. The DM could roll a 1d10 for each "player" in the area using this table and obviously rerolling so they will start in different towers:

1d10 Bottom Floor of Tower
1 A
2 B
3 C
4 D
5 E
6 F
7 H
8 I
9-10 G



http://static.flickr.com/137/321047648_8a53a1ced6_b_d.jpg

Anyways, it's just a thought ... another idea for the arena.

Enjoy!

Dizlag

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Impressive work


Edit: 4/11

[Medieve]

Why does it seem that a few of these maps are insistent that the arena needs different terrain types? You're not pokemon... you can have sand in the arena without having to name it "desert". Not many classes get bonuses for being on a land type. (Exceptions being classes like geomancer and horizon walker, but this is core classes only anyway)

[Dizlag]

Thanks for the compliment, Lord_Silvanos.

Medieve, the reason why I put the terrain type on there so it can remind us of the suggestion about sandstorms, blizzards, or a downpour of rain in the forest. And yes, I could've just said "sand" like katonta did before. Thanks for the suggestion!

Dizlag

[PinkysBrain]

Make the four quadrants of the forest different trees ;)

Also I'd make the forests into 4 big patches between the walkways, the small patches of forest are a nightmare as far as line of sight/effect determinations go. Or alternatively, individually draw every tree.

What are the dimensions of that map? With the above reservations taken into account if you put 60 foot long wall to the left and the right behind which the participants would start (line of effect blockers) I could live with that map if it's big enough.

[Dizlag]

PinkysBrain,

I've made a note of your suggestion regarding the trees in the 4 quadrents being different types. Very nice.

I regards to starting positions having walls in front of them. What do you think about having the opponents start on the ground floor in a random tower? For your first fight you might be in the lower right corner tower and your second fight you might start in the middle tower. Do you like that idea?

What do others think about it?

Btw, I will redo the map and make it a little more detailed ... I just wanted to toss this concept out to you all before making improvements. =)

Doh! Forgot the dimensions ... the map is done in 5' squares and is 330' wide by 250' tall.

Dizlag

[Rigeld2]

~470ft tall, ~700ft wide.

Am I right? I'm a little tired, so I might have miscounted.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I think (and hope) that they are 5 foot squares.

Is it possible to get numbers/letters along the side?

As long as you can make circles in the trees representing trunks I will be happy.

[Medieve]

I'd like to submit a map sketch so you guys can suggest new placements. I haven't put in the tiles yet and the trees aren't individually marked. But as I said, its more for you guys to get a feel for the map and see if you like it or not. The terrain is marked out in colors, the lgt_orange is sand, lgt_blue is shallow water (4ft deep), and lgt_green is 2ft tall grass. The green blobs are forest placement. The drk_gold color are buildings (with the lighter circle as an elevated tower) or other blocking structures. The gray bits are rocks and boulders.

Oh, and the circles with the triangles are teleportation circles. I'm also toying with the idea of replacing the round building at the bottom with an anti-magic area.

http://laughy.net/medieve/other/fugly/arenamap_sketch.jpg

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So many skilled cartographers:-)

[Medieve]

I'll give one hour for suggestions before I start on the final copies of my map.

[Dizlag]

Medieve, very nice layout and map!

I re-checked the dimensions of my map ... 350' wide (70 squares) by 235' tall (47 squares).

Silvanos, circles for trunks in trees and letters/numbers for the squares along the sides ... got it!

Any other suggestions for my map? I'll work on it tonight, hopefully. Hehehe

Dizlag

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

With that much creativity around this can only end well.

Let us try to formalize our requirements for the arena map:
- A starting position must be out of sight and line of effect from any other starting position.
(And it should generally take longer than a "move" to get within line of sight/effect)

- It should be drawn in a 5 foot grid with numbers/letters at the side.

- Different kinds of terrain with different types of "hiding" places is not a bad idea.

- Ceiling should not be "too high".


Just so no one waste their time:-)


We appreciate your help, thank you.

[Falconsflight]

If you look at it this way, as long as there is a place to high, a ceiling is never too high.

"I cast fly on myself and go up into the air."
"I go into the small cave"
"$%#@"

[The White Knight]

Medieve, I really like the idea of having teleportation circles. Neat.

[StickMan]

If map makers could add grid number and letters to the maps so that we can track Players bye them telling us "I move to C5" that would help a great deal.

StickMan.

[Medieve]

If map makers could add grid number and letters to the maps so that we can track Players bye them telling us "I move to C5" that would help a great deal.

StickMan.

Stop crushing our artistic soul!!!!!!!



Well, okay.

[Dizlag]

Here you go all! The first map is without the grid and grid letters/numbers. The second one is with the grid and grid letters/numbers.

http://static.flickr.com/142/321644727_66bdc73bb9_o_d.jpg


And here it is with the grid and labels ...

http://static.flickr.com/130/321644721_c1856a35bf_o_d.jpg


Again, those are 5' squares making this final version (I hope ;-) a 385' wide by 265' high map. 77 5' squares wide and 53 5' squares high.

A couple of notes about the map:

1) Dimensions: 385' wide by 265' high with 40' ceilings. Towers A, B, C, and D are 30' tall. Towers E, F, G, H, and I are 20' tall.

2) The North quadrant of trees are Pines, the East quadrant of trees are Firs, the South quadrant of trees are Conifers, and the West quadrant of trees are Willows. They're all about 25' - 30' high making them about 10' - 15' higher than the top of the walkways.

3) The 3 islands in the water are mucky, swampy areas that have mossy rocks on them for cover.

4) The water surrounding the center forests is anywhere from 5' to 10' deep.

5) The North half of the outer ground area is sandy. The Southern half of the outer ground area is covered in snow.

6) Again, the walkways are 10' off the ground, 10' wide by 5' high so you can walk in them, and the top of them are 15' off the ground. There are appropriate stairs, floors, and landings in each of the 9 towers.

7) I suggested before to start the 2 combatants in seperate towers on the ground floor. There are doors on the ground floor marked by little brow rectangles ... if it opens into water, picture a small 5' wide by 15' long dock to walk out on.

I'm hope you all like this version of the map and maybe use it in your duels. I tried to incorporate everything I've heard concerns / suggestions about the arena you all want.

Enjoy!

Dizlag

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Again, very nice Dizlag.

[Dizlag]

Thanks again! Oh, one thing I forgot to mention ... but you probably figured it out. The wooden circles in the trees are the tree trunks, btw. =)

Dizlag

[Katonta]

Its going to be very hard to top that one. I mean, that's more detailed than I ever could be. But I'll try.

Ok, same key as before except I added different colored trees to represent different types of trees. The only tree I am going to label are the brown ones in the middle. Those are Redwoods. I don't know any other types of trees really. Had a heck of a time getting the letters and numbers there. Hopefully this is a final copy, but I am willing to adjust it if necessary. 5ft squres now.

http://123pichosting.com/images/2509Map.PNG

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Now that we have at least a couple of maps to choose from we should be able to start soon.

So far 4 characters has been finally approved and I think we have a couple of others close to being approved.

Approved characters 4/11:
Druid: The_Werebear
Monk: Falconsflight
Bard: Leush
Paladin: The White Knight

[StickMan]

Should we vote for which map we want to use or any Ideas as to what we should do with all these maps.

[Leush]

If we're voting: I'llvote for Katonta's map, because it has that nice assymetry to it and well uh... I feel like it!

Also, I will be away from saturday through to January, so I hope you lot take as long as possible getting ready for this.:smallredface:

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Well there are 11 participants, so one would naturally have to sit out for the first round.

[enderrocksonall]

You guys are doing a round robin not a tournament. That means that everyone will fight everyone one time. there are no first rounds and second rounds.

Also for the map situation, why not use all of them and make it random. That way, you all know the maps no matter which one you start on, but you wont know until the battle starts which map you will be using. It would nullify someone coming up with a terrain advantage since they could not be guaranteed to have the same map every time.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You guys are doing a round robin not a tournament. That means that everyone will fight everyone one time. there are no first rounds and second rounds.

You mean we are not doing a cup-tournament.
We are however doing a tournament, where everyone will meet everyone and where there are no elimination.

And since each contestant can only battle one at a time, there will be several rounds.

[enderrocksonall]

But the tournament is basically that everyone will fight 10 battles( one for every other character) and the character with the best record at the end is the winner. That's the idea right?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Precisely, I was just arguing semantics and tried to meke it seem like we knew what we were doing;-)

[enderrocksonall]

Btw if you guys are still looking for another DM i would gladly do it.

[Jade_Tarem]

*Jaw drops at new map postings*

Wow... I've been away from the net for a few days... just wow... I'm kinda hoping for Dizlag's map but I won't cry if it's any of the others, that's for certain.

I'll get the final money list to Silvanos and get character approval soon, I promise.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

enderrocksonall: Thank you for the offer, I think we are ok at this point, but when the battles begin we might need some help.

Jade Tarem: Yeah it is just details you should be ready, no real rush, yet. There are still some I have not heard from.

[Medieve]

As if to only complicate your lives some more. Here is a part of my map series. The legend hasn't been done yet until I can get the underarena and building maps finished. But I thought I'd post this since this is the meat of what the arena looks like. Smaller than some of the other submissions but the underarena and buildings should expand it to a suitable size. (Take that flying wizards!)

http://laughy.net/medieve/dnd/rooms/arenamap_surface.jpg

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Looks interesting Medieve, looking forward to see what else you've got :-)

5 approved now, almost halfway. (And the Figther and Wizard looks almost done)