Would limiting spell selection of Tier 1 classes balance them?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

This idea occurred to me. What would the following changes do to the cleric, druid, and wizard in terms of game balance?

Cleric:
Rule Changes:
Clerics cannot prepare spells from the cleric spell list. They can only prepare spells from their two chosen domain spell lists, and at first level a cleric may choose two of his deity's other domains which he can prepare spells from. Domain spell slots still function the same, and clerics can use their regular spell slots to prepare domain spells which are not on the cleric spell list.

This restriction on casting also prevents clerics from using spell completion and spell trigger items for spells that they cannot cast.

Clerics retain their ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

Feats:

Expanded Divine Magic
Prerequisite: 6 ranks in Spellcraft, 6 ranks in either Knowledge (nature), Knoweldge (religion), or Knowledge (the planes)
Benefit: Choose two cleric domains. You can use spell completion and spell activation items to cast divine spells from those domains as though you were a cleric of your character level. If you are a cleric or druid, you can also prepare and cast spells from those domains.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time for a different pair of cleric domains.

Druid:
Rule Changes:

Druids use magic as clerics do, except they only have access to two domains. Druids are limited to the following domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Healing, Plant, Sun, Water. Druids can still spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells.

Feats:

See the Cleric section.


Wizard:
Rule Changes:

A wizard only has access to two spell schools, the rest are restricted. A specialist wizard only has access to a single spell school.

Feats:

Archmage Initiate
Prerequisite: 6 ranks in Spellcraft, 6 ranks in Knowldge (arcana)
Benefit: Choose one school of magic. You can use spell completion and spell activation items to cast arcane spells from that school as though you were a wizard of your character level. If you are a wizard, you can also prepare and cast spells from that school.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time for a different spell school.

How would even more severe changes affect it? What if all wizards were required to be specialists? What if the two feats to gain access to more spells did not let you prepare the new spells in your highest-level spell slots?

I do see a downside in that the two feats make Use Magic Device less useful because they are useful to non-casters, but at the same time that doesn't strike me as a bad thing. With a few feats and some cash a martial or skill-based character could get easy access to spells.

[Tvtyrant]

A wizard could pick Conjuration and Transmutation and be tier 1, so it only helps a little.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

A wizard could pick Conjuration and Transmutation and be tier 1, so it only helps a little.

Oooh, you're right, I forgot about those. Conjuration is where the vast majority of caster abuse comes from, and Transmutation has the polymorph line of spells.

What if you removed all conjuration (summoning), conjuration (calling), and transmutation (polymorph) spells from the wizard? Clerics have harsh alignment restrictions on summoning, would it be okay if they kept it? What if you used the Pathfinder versions of the polymorph rules?

[Tvtyrant]

Oooh, you're right, I forgot about those. Conjuration is where the vast majority of caster abuse comes from, and Transmutation has the polymorph line of spells.

What if you removed all conjuration (summoning), conjuration (calling), and transmutation (polymorph) spells from the wizard? Clerics have harsh alignment restrictions on summoning, would it be okay if they kept it? What if you used the Pathfinder versions of the polymorph rules?

I would trash polymorph and use all the little polymorph school spells instead. Summoning should be its own school with teleportation IMO, and then calling should die in a fire. That would at least drop the wizard to a 2 IMO.

[Flickerdart]

Limiting spell selection gets rid of T1s to a point, but you still have T2s, and now they can't afford not to pick the best domains/schools/whatever. Want evocation for some low-op blasting? Haha, now you're stuck with a crap school!

I say this to every single such proposed fix: if your idea penalizes people already making suboptimal decisions, your idea is not a fix.

[eggynack]

I think that druids would still be at least tier 2, even with your fix. They're still incredibly versatile and powerful, even if they can only be a bear while riding a bear and shooting bears. Even with nothing but wild shape, they're still at tier 3, and everything else clearly pumps them up to tier 2. I wonder what a druid would look like if they had no class features except for casting summon nature's ally. They'd still be reasonably powerful, I think.

Edit: They're actually significantly better than that, come to think of it, though probably still tier 2. I was discounting the domain based spell list, but some of those spell sets are actually reasonably good if you don't get the spells natively. I don't know which ones are best yet, because I've never really looked at domains from this perspective, but air looks pretty nice. Wind wall as a 2nd level spell seems reasonably powerful, control winds and weather are as good as they've always been, and the rest of the list isn't shabby either. This shall take thought use.

[TuggyNE]

I think Druids would drop to T2 with this; their summoning is still quite good, and might be able to solve a lot of things, but it's not necessarily auto-win (especially with slightly fewer rapid buff spells to dump on them). Wild Shape gets somewhat worse with fewer buffs and fewer blasting spells, and so does the Animal Companion. However, each of these is still useful in most situations.

The main thing is, though, that it seems like most of the good spells are on some domain list or other, so you'd still probably end up with T2 campaign-breaking potential, even if many druids wouldn't be quite there.

Clerics might be similar, although it's easy enough to get lots of domains that they might end up T2 without too much difficulty in practice.


Limiting spell selection gets rid of T1s to a point, but you still have T2s, and now they can't afford not to pick the best domains/schools/whatever. Want evocation for some low-op blasting? Haha, now you're stuck with a crap school!

Well, sort of. If they can get past the blasting, resilient sphere, contingency, and wall of force are good examples of nice Evocations.

However, someone who has Necromancy and Enchantment, say, is going to have to put some serious effort into securing minions, stripping buff immunities, and so on. So Wizard ends up being somewhere between T4 and T1 with this. Even taking the axe to Conjuration/Transmutation might not get them below T2.

[JaronK]

This is similar to a fix I've played with before, though note that it only at best brings them down to low Tier 1/mid Tier 2, so it's not like it's a full balancing unless you go through and fix all the problem spells (which is a LOT of work).

The fix, for any who care:

Wizards
Class is split into specialists... you must specialize. You can be a Diviner, Necromancer, Evoker, Abjurer, Illusionist, Enchanter, Conjurer, or Transmuter. Each can only cast from their school, universal, and their related school... but Conjurers and Transmuters don't get related schools. Divination is related to Necromancy, Evocation to Abjuration, and Illusion to Enchantment. However, each specialist does get class abilities taken from the UA variant specialists, Master Specialist, and PHBII specialists as follows:

Necromancer
Level
1 Familiar, Skeletal Minion, Scribe Scroll, Enhanced Undead, Cursed Glance (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, enemy within 60 feet takes -2 to AC and saving throws start of your next turn. Will negates, save based on Wizard level + Int, spell level one half Wizard level. ), Spells (Wizard list: Necromancy, Universal, and Divination Only)
2
3
4
5 Undead Apotheosis (+2 Saves vs Sleep, Stun, Paralysis, Poison, Disease), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (When you cast a Necromancy spell, undead allies within 60 feet get turn resistance and a bonus on saves equal to your Wizard level for a number of rounds equal to your Wizard level)
8
9
10 Undead Apotheosis (+4 Saves vs Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Energy Drain), Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast a Necromancy spell, gain immunity to ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, and negative levels for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast a Necromancy spell, all allied undead within 60 feet gain fast healing 10 for 5 rounds)
15 Undead Apotheosis (+4 Saves vs Sleep, Stun, Paralysis, Poison, Disease), Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Undead Apotheosis (25% critical resistance like Light Fortification), Bonus Feat

Diviner
Level
1 Familiar, Enhanced Awareness (add Sense Motive to class skills, study items in 10 minutes for Identify, Arcane Eye travels 20 feet per round, +1 save Dcs for saving throws from divine spells), Scribe Scroll, Prescience (1/day +1 per 5 levels, add Int mod as insight bonus to attack, saving throw, skill check, or level check), Glipse Peril (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, gain +2 Insight bonus on the next saving throw made before your next turn, spell level one half Wizard level. ), Spells (Wizard list: Necromancy, Universal, and Divination Only)
2
3
4
5 Bonus Feat (Alertness, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus Spot, Listen, or Sense Motive), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (Divination spells with a duration of concentration last an extra ½ Wizard level rounds after you stop concentrating)
8
9
10 Bonus Feat (Alertness, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus Spot, Listen, or Sense Motive), Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast a Divination Spell, gain Uncanny Dodge for the duration of the spell)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast a Divination spell, gain True Seeing for 5 rounds)
15 Bonus Feat (Alertness, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus Spot, Listen, or Sense Motive), Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Bonus Feat (Alertness, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus Spot, Listen, or Sense Motive), Bonus Feat

Abjurer
Level
1 Familiar, Resistance to Energy (1/day give touched creature Resist to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic 5+ ½ class level for one hour. Does not stack with spells), Scribe Scroll, Urgent Shield (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, gain +2 shield bonus on the next saving throw made before your next turn, spell level one half Wizard level. ), Spells (Wizard list, Abjuration: Universal, and Evocation Only)
2
3
4
5 Aura of Protection (1/day per five Wizard levels gain deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saves equal to Int mod, standard activation to activate, protects against one attack or spell, lasts one minute or until discharged), Spontaneous Dispelling (Can lose 4 spell levels to cast Dispel Magic, at 11th can lose seven spell levels to cast Greater Dispel Magic), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (Gain Competence Bonus to Dispel Checks equal to ½ Wizard level)
8
9
10 Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast an Abjuration Spell, you are unaffected by spells that you save for half against for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast an Abjuration spell, a personal spell can be cast as a touch spell on one creature and an emanation spell that's normally centered on you can be centered on a touched creature)
15 Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Bonus Feat

Evoker
Level
1 Familiar, Energy Affinity (pick an energy type, acid cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Your caster level is one higher with this type for evocation spells), Scribe Scroll, Counter Fire (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, when a visible enemy within 60 feet targets you with a ranged attack or spell, make a ranged touch attack for 1d6/three Wizard levels damage, spell level one half Wizard level.), Overcome Resistance (1/day + 1 per two Wizard levels treat an enemy's energy resistance as if it were 10 lower, minimum zero, for purposes of one spell), Spells (Wizard list: Abjuration, Universal, and Evocation Only)
2
3
4
5 Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (When casting an Evocation spell, gain a bonus on Concentration checks equal to ½ Wizard level)
8
9
10 Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast an Evocation Spell, gain resistance 20 to any one energy type in the spell you just cast for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast an Evocation spell, Any creature that fails it's save takes damage again one round later equal to half the damage it took when you cast the spell)
15 Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Bonus Feat

Enchanter
Level
1 Familiar, Social Proficiency (Add Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive to class skills. Gain a +2 Competence bonus to one of these skills per five levels), Scribe Scroll, Instant Daze (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, when an enemy that has HD equal to or less than your class level makes a melee attack against you, you can daze him, will negates as spell like ability int based, compulsion and mind effecting, spell level one half Wizard level.), Extended Enchantment (1/day +1 per two class levels, Extend any enchantment spell you cast), Spells (Wizard list: Enchantment, Universal, and Illusion Only)
2
3
4
5 Bonus Feat
6 Cohort (Gain a cohort like the Leadership feat but as though level was two lower... starts as 4th level character. If you gain Leadership, you have the “special power” modifier)
7 Minor Esoterica (Targets of your charm spells do not get a bonus to their saves due to being threatened or attacks by your allies. Subjects of compulsion spells do not get a bonus to saves for actions against their nature)
8
9
10 Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast an Enchantment Spell, you can reroll failed will saves against enchantments or mid-affecting spells for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast an Enchantment spell, any creature that saves against your enchantment spell must save again one round later with a +5 bonus on the save as though you had cast it again)
15 Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Bonus Feat

Illusionist
Level
1 Familiar, Chains of Disbelief (even if a disbelieving creature tells others it's fake, they get no +4 to disbelieve. When proved something is fake, they must make a will save at +10 to see obscured creatures/objects), Scribe Scroll, Brief Figment (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, create a mirror image until it is struck or until the start of your next turn, spell level one half Wizard level.), Shadow Shaper (Hide is a class skill), Illusion Mastery (Add two illusion spells to spell book at each new level. Gain Spell Mastery for all illusion spells), Spells (Wizard list: Enchantment, Universal, and Illusion Only)
2
3
4
5 Shadow Shaper (Add Int mod in addition to Dex mod to hide), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (Your Will disbelief spells are at +2 DC)
8
9
10 Save Dcs for Illusion spells +1, Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast an Illusion Spell, you gain concealment for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast an Illusion spell, it can be stilled and silent without increasing casting time or level)
15 Hide in plain sight, Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 If illumination would give concealment, gain total concealment instead, Bonus Feat

Conjurer
Level
1 Familiar, Rapid Summoning (cast Summon Monster in 1 standard action, summoned creatures take standard action in first round, can quicken), Scribe Scroll, Abrupt Jaunt (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, teleport 10 feet, spell level one half Wizard level.), Augmented Summoning, Spontaneous Summoning (lose a prepared spell to cast any summon monster spell of a lower level), Spells (Wizard list: Conjuration and Universal Only)
2
3
4
5 Enhanced Summoning (+2 DC to dispel your summoned creatures), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (Creatures you summon or call get extra hitpoints equal to your caster level)
8
9
10 Enhanced Summoning (Your summoned creatures get +2 Str and Con), Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast a Conjuration Spell, dispel checks against your summoned creatures treat your caster level as 5 higher for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast a Conjuration spell, you can cast it as a swift action if it had a standard action casting time)
15 Enhanced Summoning (+4 Dcs to dispel your summons), Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Enhanced Summoning (Your summoned creatures get +4 Str and Con), Bonus Feat

Transmuter
Level
1 Familiar, Enhanced Attribute (1/day +1 per 5 class levels gain +2 Enhancement to one ability score for class level minutes as a free action, counts as using a quickened spell), Scribe Scroll,Sudden Shift (Int Mod/Day as immediate action spell like ability, gain climb, fly, or swim speed equal to your current land speed until the end of your next turn or this turn if you cast during your turn, spell level one half Wizard level.), Transmutable Memory (1/day give up a number of prepared spell levels, max half class level, to prepare different spells in their place of same total spell levels, uses spell levels minutes), Spells (Wizard list: Transmutation and Universal Only)
2
3
4
5 Spell Versatility (For ever 5 class levels, pick one spell of a level you have access to and treat it as transmutation even if it's prohibited), Bonus Feat
6
7 Minor Esoterica (When your transmutation is successfully dispelled, it remains in effect for 1 round longer)
8
9
10 Bonus Feat
11 Moderate Esoterica (When you cast a Transmutation Spell, you can immediately reroll any failed Fort save against a transmutation spell or effect for spell level rounds)
12
13
14 Major Esoterica (3/day, when you cast a Transmutation spell and a creature saves against it, it takes damage equal to the level of the spell)
15 Bonus Feat
16
17
18
19
20 Bonus Feat

Clerics:
Cleric At first level, chose 5 domains, which must include all of your deity's domains (the rest must be thematically appropriate to your deity or cause, as judged by the DM). Domains that currently modify Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead in any way now grant those abilities instead of their normal domain power if you didn't already have them. Cloistered Clerics do not get a 6th domain, but rather must chose Knowledge as one of their domains and must take the Knowledge domain power at first level.
Level
1 1st Domain Power, Spells (spontaneously cast any spell from your 5 domains as your normal slots, plus prepare one spell per day of each level from the Cleric list in what used to be the domain slot)
2
3
4
5 2nd Domain Power
6
7
8
9
10 3rd Domain Power
11
12
13
14
15 4th Domain Power
16
17
18
19
20 5th Domain Power

Druid:
Split into two classes, the Druid and Shapeshifter. The Druid loses Wild Shape and gets an Animal Companion as a Ranger. The Shapeshifter loses spellcasting and the Animal Companion.

Sorcerer:
-Bonus spells determined by Wisdom, max level of spells determined by Intelligence, still counts as a Charisma caster
-Gains a major bloodline for free (no bloodline levels) of your choice

Starting spell changes:
Conjuration (Creation) spells create permanent, not instantaneous creations, and thus can always be detected via Dispel Magic and dispelled. Their creations can never be used as material components, nor can they ever be enchanted. Cold iron in contact with a permanently created conjuration spell reduces the caster level of the spell by one per round, causing the entire created thing to disappear when the caster level drops too low.
All force spells that are not currently Abjuration or Evocation are now Abjuration
All direct damage spells of the fire, cold, sonic, or electrical type are now Evocation
Spell like abilities take the same time to cast as the spells they duplicate





Glitterdust, on a failed save, blinds the target for 1 round and then dazzles them for the remainder of the spell.
Alter Self does not grant natural armor or racial skills
Polymorph (along with related spells) explicitly does not grant spell casting
Wish always costs Xp, even when used as a spell like ability, and the cost always comes from the person doing the wishing
Shivering Touch cannot drop an enemy below 1 Dexterity unless the temperature in the room is already at or below freezing
Astral Projection ends immediately if you project to the same plane as your body. Items are mirrored, not copied, so changes to either the original or the mirror effect each other (thus using a scroll while projecting uses up the real scroll too)
Genesis creates planes with normal time traits only
Freedom of Movement does not make you immune to grapples, it just grants a +20 bonus to escape or avoid them.
Knock grants a +5+Caster Level competence bonus to unlock a door, and you're treated as having the tools to do so
Arcane Lock (and related spells) raise the DC to unlock the door by 5+Caster Level instead of making it impossible to unlock
Items shrunk by Shrink Item take 10 rounds to return to full size
Explosive Runes explode immediately if another Explosive Runes gets within the normal explosive range of the runes. The damage from the two runes does not stack.
Simulacrum creates creatures with no Spell Like Abilities or Spellcasting
Polymorph Any Object cannot be cast on a creature that is already Polymorphed in any way.
Mordenkainen's Disjuction: Does not destroy magic items. Suppresses them for Caster Level rounds.
Shapeshift: You cannot use the spellcasting, spell-like, or supernatural abilities of a creature you shapechange into
Teleport line: You can only teleport to places you have seen or can see.
Rope Trick leaves a somewhat visible shimmering portal (Spot check DC 10+Caster Level to notice)

And to be clear, this is just a very in progress way of doing it that's similar to the OP's original idea. It won't bring the T1s down to T3 (except the Shapeshifter) but it helps somewhat. I think your fix is a lot more intense on Druids than mine... which might be a good thing.

JaronK

[Person_Man]

Yes, you can get a full caster down to any Tier by limiting it's spell selection. (For example, the Beguiler is Tier 3, Warmage is Tier 4, Healer is Tier 5).

But I wouldn't be heavy handed about it. Just talk to your players. Have everyone agree to a general power level and Tier. (A lot of people aim for Tier 3, but there's nothing inherently broken with playing at higher or lower levels, as long as all the players contribute). And if any player uses a spell which seems to set them really far apart from other players, have a conversation with them, and see if it makes sense to use it or not.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Yuck. This got way more complicated than I thought it would be. I guess I'm going to stick with my mainstay of banning the cleric, druid, and wizard and pointing players interested in those archetypes to the favored soul and sorcerer.

Thank you all for the feedback.

[Abemad]

You could also make all tier 1's fixed list casters, it should bring them to tier 2 without to much work

[Big Fau]

Clerics cannot prepare spells from the cleric spell list. They can only prepare spells from their two chosen domain spell lists, and at first level a cleric may choose two of his deity's other domains which he can prepare spells from. Domain spell slots still function the same, and clerics can use their regular spell slots to prepare domain spells which are not on the cleric spell list.


This change renders a Core Cleric nearly unplayable at the low levels, and doesn't matter much at the higher levels. Most domains in Core (and several outside of it) are not competitively-balanced (by which I mean they are not designed as a spell list).

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You could also make all tier 1's fixed list casters, it should bring them to tier 2 without to much work

You mean with spells known like a sorcerer or bard? Yeah, I guess wizards are actually pretty balanced with only 4 spells known per spell levels.

[Yora]

Limiting the spell selection is the only thing that could actually balance spellcasters. Spellcasters are really not broken classes. All the problems are the results of spells, that are way too open ended and can be exploited to great degrees.

[Flickerdart]

If I had to limit people's spells, I would just say that you could only pick spells from the Spell Compendium and PHBII (obviously, building new lists for classes like Beguiler). This neatly sidesteps 90-odd% of all the broken spells in the game, while still leaving casters playable.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If I had to limit people's spells, I would just say that you could only pick spells from the Spell Compendium and PHBII (obviously, building new lists for classes like Beguiler). This neatly sidesteps 90-odd% of all the broken spells in the game, while still leaving casters playable.

I have considered a "ban all core classes, races, and spells" 3.5 edition game. I don't own enough books to pull it off, though.

[Abemad]

You mean with spells known like a sorcerer or bard? Yeah, I guess wizards are actually pretty balanced with only 4 spells known per spell levels.

I actually mean more like the beguiler who knows a specific set of spells, and may cast them a set number of times per day

[The Trickster]

If I had to limit people's spells, I would just say that you could only pick spells from the Spell Compendium and PHBII (obviously, building new lists for classes like Beguiler). This neatly sidesteps 90-odd% of all the broken spells in the game, while still leaving casters playable.

My group tried this. With a few exceptions (still allow detect magic and such), it worked pretty well. It would require adding spells to some of the classes, though. (A duskblade has a few spells on their spelllist from PH1 that would need to be replaced).

[Spuddles]

If I had to limit people's spells, I would just say that you could only pick spells from the Spell Compendium and PHBII (obviously, building new lists for classes like Beguiler). This neatly sidesteps 90-odd% of all the broken spells in the game, while still leaving casters playable.

You'd still want Break Enchantment, Remove Curse, Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, etc., I believe.

[visigani]

Consider this solution:

No bonus spells from high ability scores.
Wizards only get access to a single school: Illusion, Necromancy, or Evocation. Abjuration and Divination are secondary schools available to all.
All sorcerers are "Battle Sorcerers".
Clerics cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.
Clerics spontaneously cast from domains but do not get bonus domain spell slots.
Druid variant from Unearthed Arcana (also in srd) that trades wildeshape for wisdom to AC bonus.

[Psyren]

There are enough ACFs and Archetypes across 3.5 and PF that you can mix and match to maintain the feel of a high-tier class but with a T3-4 power level. For instance, you could replace "Wizard" in your campaign with Staff Magus from PF, or "Witch" with a Staff + Hex Magus. Sorcerer could be replaced with Magician Bard, Cleric with Inquisitor, Druid with Mystic Ranger or Wildshape Ranger etc.

Feel free to combine archetypes that normally can't be combined, or even mix and match features willy-nilly, until you get something that feels right. It's a great starting point for quickly reducing power without banning, and only after that will you need the herculean task of looking at the spells themselves.

[rexreg]

no one does things perfectly every single time.
make spell casters roll to get spells off, using either a DC check & Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) or just a flat d20 roll where a 1 results in a Wild Surge, instead

[TuggyNE]

Wizards only get access to a single school: Illusion, Necromancy, or Evocation. Abjuration and Divination are secondary schools available to all.

No Conjuration or Transmutation at all?

[eggynack]

No Conjuration or Transmutation at all?
That actually sounds fairly reasonable. His house rules basically make the wizard into a prepared variant of the beguiler, dread necro, or warmage. A wizard with conjuration and transmutation is a crazy powerful wizard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Druid takes a big hit, for sure-- the spells in the aforementioned schools don't synergize well with wild shape combat. I think they still fall into T1 because of summons plus wildshape, but they'd be waaaayyyy on the bottom, nearly hitting T3, I think.

Cleric of a god drops all the way to T3, I think. There are some very good domains, but it'd be hard to find a single god that grants access to more than one of them, I think. I did a similar thing in my fix, though I was more generous-- spontaneous casting from 5 of your god's domains.

Cleric of a cause... might by T2, but I don't think they'd get enough spells known to make it.

Wizard, as already mentioned, doesn't do that much.

[eggynack]

Druid takes a big hit, for sure-- the spells in the aforementioned schools don't synergize well with wild shape combat. I think they still fall into T1 because of summons plus wildshape, but they'd be waaaayyyy on the bottom, nearly hitting T3, I think.

I don't see the logic on this one. If they fall all the way to the bottom of tier one, and go through that bottom, they don't magically experience deposition and become tier two. I think that they're pretty clearly tier two. Their casting just isn't versatile enough for tier one, but they seem powerful enough for tier two.

[TuggyNE]

That actually sounds fairly reasonable. His house rules basically make the wizard into a prepared variant of the beguiler, dread necro, or warmage. A wizard with conjuration and transmutation is a crazy powerful wizard.

Yes, but we already have beguilers, dread necros, and warmages. A prepared version of those seems messy and kind of lame.

Obviously, Conjuration and Transmutation shouldn't go together in any such limited-school fix, but simply wiping them out trashes a fair number of rather iconic spells. For example, baleful polymorph being Druid-only seems lame, and a Wizard that flat-out has no idea how to obtain extraplanar help of any kind is also weird.


I don't see the logic on this one. If they fall all the way to the bottom of tier one, and go through that bottom, they don't magically experience deposition and become tier two. I think that they're pretty clearly tier two. Their casting just isn't versatile enough for tier one, but they seem powerful enough for tier two.

Well, if there's not enough power for T1, there isn't enough power for T2 either.

[Yondu]

My view on balance of Tier 1 class is not only linked to spell selection but also of the metamagic feats / class abilities. Metamagic is OP compared to feats for other class (Except Druids or Cleric Feats), let me explain : Empower Spell increase the damage done by spells by 50% by giving up two spell level - Power Attack : decrease your BAB by 1 to have an increase of 1 damage (2 if two handed. The two feats are nearly mandatory to do the most damage and with on feat you increase you damage output by 50 %.... OMG imagine a fighter feat saying by reducing your BAB by 4 (equivalence of a 2 level decrease on a spell for me) you do 50 % damage more.... Natural Spell allow druid to cast spell in wild shape on first level, imagine a feat saying you can take whaterver penalty on AC or BAB for increase damage output but it does not apply on your attack roll or AC, at first level you have +1 BAB for weapon focus....
Stictly limiting spell list to 2 schools or domains is a good thing and will give more balance in the game (it was like this in 1st edition) but deeply reworking the feats will be also a link to follow ....

[eggynack]

Well, if there's not enough power for T1, there isn't enough power for T2 either.
I suppose there's a logic to that. I still think that druids do pass through tier two before hitting tier three. The loss of most non-summoning spells largely represents a loss of versatility rather than power. This new druid is certainly limited, but he seems quite a bit more powerful than tier three classes.


My view on balance of Tier 1 class is not only linked to spell selection but also of the metamagic feats / class abilities. Metamagic is OP compared to feats for other class (Except Druids or Cleric Feats), let me explain : Empower Spell increase the damage done by spells by 50% by giving up two spell level - Power Attack : decrease your BAB by 1 to have an increase of 1 damage (2 if two handed. The two feats are nearly mandatory to do the most damage and with on feat you increase you damage output by 50 %.... OMG imagine a fighter feat saying by reducing your BAB by 4 (equivalence of a 2 level decrease on a spell for me) you do 50 % damage more.... Natural Spell allow druid to cast spell in wild shape on first level, imagine a feat saying you can take whaterver penalty on AC or BAB for increase damage output but it does not apply on your attack roll or AC, at first level you have +1 BAB for weapon focus....
Stictly limiting spell list to 2 schools or domains is a good thing and will give more balance in the game (it was like this in 1st edition) but deeply reworking the feats will be also a link to follow ....
You're saying quite a few things here, and most of it seems quite wrong. I suppose I can dissect the myriad problems, if you want, but suffice to say that empower spell isn't a pox on the very notion of balance. I don't even think it's particularly optimal, at least not without metamagic reducers. I actually think that most metamagic feats are rather balanced in general, and that they only become unbalanced when you introduce other factors, like arcane thesis, and incantrix. Also, how exactly is a druid getting natural spell at 1st level? It's all just a bit of a mess in general, really.

[Raendyn]

I had a silimar idea based on the RPGA of the 3.5 but expanded a bit.

As a DM pick 2-3 spells from each school on each spell lvl. These are the only free to learn spells.

Your players get 1 speacial point per lvl.Now they can spend one point to unlock one spell per lvl from any book you choose.

That is a pain in the ass for them and they definatelly drop to t2 and that only of they make optimal choices. Because u choose the open spells u can limit their power even further and also stop imballance between schools.

So that brings it up to 20 +2-3 x 8 + universal spells as u see fit. You also have the final say on what spells is avaiable for unlocking.

RPGA has this plan but the points u get each lvl are also consumed to unlock items, feats and PrC and they cost 1,2 and 3 points respectively each.

Put this in, and it will hurt even more.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, if there's not enough power for T1, there isn't enough power for T2 either.

I suppose there's a logic to that. I still think that druids do pass through tier two before hitting tier three. The loss of most non-summoning spells largely represents a loss of versatility rather than power. This new druid is certainly limited, but he seems quite a bit more powerful than tier three classes.

Not necessarily. A T1 class can solve every situation in a broken way, while T3 represents one can contribute to every situation in a balanced way. That's every bit as natural a progression as T1 to T2 (can solve certain situations in a broken way).

The new Druid gets Wildshape (a perfect T3 ability by itself), plus SNA casting (either T3 or T4-- not sure how many non-beatsticks you can get compared to SM), plus a pathetically tiny list of spells (probably T4, due to the low variety and general low power of the specified domains), plus an animal companion (itself a T4 character). Without the buffs on their original spell list, there's no real synergy between any of those features. The question becomes whether or not the secondary features (spells, animal companion) are enough to lift it out of T3, and I honestly don't think so.

[Xervous]

RPGA
Regal Padded Gaming Analogy
Stopped reading right there.

Let us take a look at what separates tier 1 from tier 2. Versatility. Of course we are at the (rare and) correct conclusion that reducing access to spells is the most straightforward way of bringing T1s down to T2. We're all just at a loss for how to do this properly.

Shall we take a look at a flourishing example of T2 that wizards has provided us with? The psion. Aside from five or ten abusable powers (action economy and polymorphing etc...), many people agree that this manifester is a nicely balanced "caster". How was the psion structured then?

The first thing we notice here is that powers are split up into schools, but there are specialist lists in addition to the general list. As its name suggests, the general list has powers that are generally useful to all psions while the specialist lists contain powers that are sometimes more powerful than others of their level. But each list is, of course, limited in its scope. Any psion can go to greater lengths to learn from a non matching specialist list, but their acquisition of such powers is delayed a whole power level.



So, TLDR: remove problem spells, move specific ones to the specialist lists, figure out some way to limit how spellbook based classes learn from non-matching specialist lists, and you've got a great start.

[Raendyn]

Regal Padded Gaming Analogy
Stopped reading right there.

Role Playing Game Association I think and when WotC sets rules for their official worldwide dnd 3,5 playign series, Maybe, just maybe u should read them.

Theres a reason why unplayable monstrocities of T.O. didnt show up there.

[Flickerdart]

Theres a reason why unplayable monstrocities of T.O. didnt show up there.
TO builds don't show up anywhere except Charop boards, because they're not meant to be played. That's what the T stands for. Theoretical.

[Xervous]

I was referring to the fact that most if not all adventures distributed by the RPGA are designed to very rarely if ever kill PCs, as in the encounters are intentionally weak so there is a low chance of PC death. On top of that, there are even fudge rules written in the modules for the DMs.

Its predictable and dull.

[Doug Lampert]

I would trash polymorph and use all the little polymorph school spells instead. Summoning should be its own school with teleportation IMO, and then calling should die in a fire. That would at least drop the wizard to a 2 IMO.

Calling as an IDEA is fine, the subschool definition and any spells I've failed to notice that actually work accordingly are not a problem.

The problem is all the calling spells that act almost like summons rather than like calling spells (ignoring the subschool limits of calling) but then turn arround and let you ignore the (substantial and meaningful) subschool limits on summoning too.

SRD on the subschool:
"A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled."

Now, read the duration entry on Gate. See the problem?

Also: Calling makes the creature actually present, and doesn't change the creature's mind since it doesn't have enchantment and isn't mind effecting. So it's obvious that NO calling spell can EVER grant control of the creature. How could it possibly do so? (Edited to add: and if one did grant control then such control would neccessarily be without any limited duration and non-magical in nature since the spell is instantaneous.)

Shame about all the actual calling spells which do give control.

And how the CRAP is gate SR: No? (Or planar binding SR not applicable to the actual calling part.)

Describe to me just how actually calling a balor to me, forcing it to appear in a particular location regardless of its will, and then forcing it to obey me, is NOT directly targetting the balor with magic? Oh, right, WotC consistently IGNORES their own rules for what spells SR should apply to just like they ignored the duration of calling spells.

Gate as written is usually abused as an uber-summon spell that can summon almost anything and ignores all the limits on summons. Because that's what gate is written as doing. It's force obediance fits a summoning spell that somehow got mislabled as calling.

If calling worked according to the rules for the calling subschool then it would be fine. You could get an outsider to appear, and then can make a deal. And there's nothing about being called forcing the outsider to actually agree to the deal or to obey the deal once it's agreed if it agreed under threat or due to being trapped. But that's not how the actual spells work.

[Psyren]

"...The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled."

Now, read the duration entry on Gate. See the problem?

What problem? Gate is specifically Calling OR Creation. The Calling effect is the instantaneous one (bringing a creature in and shutting the door behind it) while the Creation effect is for the traveling function (which has a duration of concentration.)

[Spuddles]

Gate would be alright if it was just Planar Ally, wizard version. You call up the creature, bargain with it, and either it agrees to your conditions and appears, or just ignores you.

Pit Fiends and other devils always demand your soul as collateral, so you don't try to backstab them.

[Alienist]

The problem isn't spell selection, the problem is that some spells are broken.

Much better solution: ban the broken spells.

If there are no broken spells then there are no tier 1s or tier 2s.

Remember that the definition of Tier 2 is he has quite a few ways to break the game, whereas a Tier 1 has LOTS of ways of breaking the game.

Restricting the Sorcerer to 'only' knowing four broken spells per spell level isn't really solving any real problems.