[pf] E4?

[Systole]

I've been thinking of running an E# game for PF. The standard choices seem to be E6 or E8, and I don't really see either one of those as satisfactory. In an E8 game, you're starting to see the power levels that I don't particularly like. However, E6 really screws over your six-spell-level casters like alchemists and maguses. The cutoff stops them just short of 2nd level spells, which seems a bit unfair.

So I was thinking: What about E4? Everyone gets second level spells, but the hybrid classes get fewer of them than the full casters. And rangers and paladins get access to their first level spells. Has anyone tried this? It seems like a better break to me than E6.

[Dead_Jester]

I've been thinking of running an E# game for PF. The standard choices seem to be E6 or E8, and I don't really see either one of those as satisfactory. In an E8 game, you're starting to see the power levels that I don't particularly like. However, E6 really screws over your six-spell-level casters like alchemists and maguses. The cutoff stops them just short of 2nd level spells, which seems a bit unfair.

So I was thinking: What about E4? Everyone gets second level spells, but the hybrid classes get fewer of them than the full casters. And rangers and paladins get access to their first level spells. Has anyone tried this? It seems like a better break to me than E6.

I haven't personally tried E4, but I believe the original reasoning for E6 was that it combined many important breakpoints; full Bab warrior classes get their first extra attack breakpoint (thereby distinguishing them from other classes, which you don't see in E4), and full casters (including spontaneous ones in 3.5) get access to 3rd level spells, which include many of the most iconic spells, things like Fireball, Haste, Fly, Bestow/Remove X, Dispel Magic and Animate Dead, and whose existence more or less define the image of a D&D/PF caster. This is also of the main reasons why E8 is not as popular as E6 (that and, AFAIK, the former being designed earlier); 8th level is not a nice breakpoint for many classes, and the 4th level spells are not nearly as iconic as the 3rd level ones for the most part, while also being the point at which casters tend to become markedly stronger than non-casters.

As for your problem with half casters getting screwed over, a simple solution would be to have their casting progression skip a level, either at 3rd or 6th level, which would not be severely damaging balance wise. You could also allow them to grab something like a single 2nd level slot through a feat, seeing as EX more or less means they will have some to spare if they want to focus on casting.

[Systole]

E6 was great for 3.5 breakpoints, but if you look at the way Paizo did PF, it's not a great fit for some PF classes. E4 or E8 is much better.

[Gnorman]

However, E6 really screws over your six-spell-level casters like alchemists and maguses. The cutoff stops them just short of 2nd level spells, which seems a bit unfair.

It stops them just short of 3rd level spells. Which is 100% fair for a hybrid class.

With that correction, I fail to see your objection. The E# environments are a delicate balance, and I agree that Pathfinder puts some nice abilities at level 8. But the sacrifice there is that you're opening up the world of 4th-level spells. And E4, in my opinion, does not allow the classes to really come into their own.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I think it could work in theory, but I'm worried about full casters being underpowered. Fourth level is still not in the "I have enough spell slots to cast a spell every round" range, but it's close. If the game takes place over the forums, I'd love to play.

By the way, you might want to edit the bard/summoner "spells known" table - a Summoner 4 actually has more spells known than a Sorcerer 4.

[Systole]

It stops them just short of 3rd level spells. Which is 100% fair for a hybrid class.

With that correction, I fail to see your objection. The E# environments are a delicate balance, and I agree that Pathfinder puts some nice abilities at level 8. But the sacrifice there is that you're opening up the world of 4th-level spells. And E4, in my opinion, does not allow the classes to really come into their own.

Third level, my mistake.

I agree that the casting ability of hybrids is going to be outclassed by full casters. And I agree this is as it should be. Where I disagree is that I don't think E6 hybrid casters are compensated well enough for not having 3rd level spells when, for example, E6 clerics and druids do -- both of which would be juggernauts even if they didn't have access to 3rd level spells.

E4 hybrid classes get 2nd level spells but simply have fewer of them compared to E4 full casters. Therefore, (I hypothesize) that E4 has a flatter power distribution than E6, where the differential in casting power instead comes from having or not having access to a whole tier of spells. Yes/no/other?

[Vadskye]

Where I disagree is that I don't think E6 hybrid casters are compensated well enough for not having 3rd level spells when, for example, E6 clerics and druids do -- both of which would be juggernauts even if they didn't have access to 3rd level spells.

This is true. However, this is a problem with the Pathfinder cleric and druid as a whole. Whether you use E4, E6, or E8 doesn't actually affect this.

[Gnorman]

Third level, my mistake.

I agree that the casting ability of hybrids is going to be outclassed by full casters. And I agree this is as it should be. Where I disagree is that I don't think E6 hybrid casters are compensated well enough for not having 3rd level spells when, for example, E6 clerics and druids do -- both of which would be juggernauts even if they didn't have access to 3rd level spells.

E4 hybrid classes get 2nd level spells but simply have fewer of them compared to E4 full casters. Therefore, (I hypothesize) that E4 has a flatter power distribution than E6, where the differential in casting power instead comes from having or not having access to a whole tier of spells. Yes/no/other?

If it really bothers you, just move the hybrid caster spell progression up a level.

[Ialdabaoth]

If it really bothers you, just move the hybrid caster spell progression up a level.

Or, allow a feat that purchases a single third-level spell.