Whisper Gnome - Ranged Swift Ambusher D&D 3.5

[pyrese]

I'm looking for help planning a build for a rogue/scout whisper gnome using ranged weapons.

At the moment, my gnome is a 3rd level Rogue and I plan to spend the next 3 levels on Scout to pick up Swift Ambusher at 6. He currently has Point Blank Shot and Able Sniper as his feats and his skills are focused on stealth and scouting. I've currently been sniping with him in most combats, but I realize this wont be as sustainable once we reach the point of iterative attacks.

His current weapon of choice is a MW Shortbow with various arrows for different situations and while I'd like to stay with the Shortbow, I'm open to switching weapons around.

I am aware of the Swift Ambusher's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14798669), but found it somewhat lacking.

I would like to flesh this character out without using ToB and without splashing into any other base classes, though a PRC or two wouldn't be terrible. The character should, if he survives, make it to somewhere between 17 and 20 by the end of the current campaign.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

[BowStreetRunner]

I may come back and take a closer look at this later, but although pressed for time I did want to mention a couple of things.

First, having played around with Swift Ambusher before I am not sold on its viability. It seems you are either doing sneak-attack OR skirmish, but rarely both. If you can work into Greater Manyshot, the skirmish can be very nice, but it's feat intensive.

On the other hand, if you are willing to accept you will mostly have a support role and not be a primary combatant, there are some nice abilities that a rogue can pick up from scout.

One final note: Shadow Silk Armor from Tome of Magic. It's easily overlooked, but gives an untyped +2 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, and that's just the mundane version.

[Curmudgeon]

The most efficient development path after level 6 is to go all Rogue, because Swift Ambusher will stack your Scout+Rogue levels for skirmish, but not for sneak attack. For ranged attacks your big need is to enable sneak attack, usually by being unseen. Wilderness Rogue can get you Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight (same as the Ranger abilities: only in natural terrain) as Rogue special abilities, meaning not before Rogue 13 (class level 16); that's way too late.

If you're in Forgotten Realms you should ask your DM about the FR-only version of Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152. That template's Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural so it satisfies not only the "not being observed" Hide requirement that all HiPS versions do, but also the cover/concealment requirement as well. (It's still situational and fails entirely in daylight, but it's much superior to the Extraordinary HiPS of the regular Dark Creature template in Tome of Magic.)

If you don't have a good version of Hide in Plain Sight then you should look for alternatives. Use Magic Device and some wand that provides darkness you can see through would work, as would Greater Invisibility (at least until See Invisibility becomes common for your enemies).

One other option is a 2-level dip into Monk. This provides two useful abilities:

Trade Monk evasion for the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21): become invisible for a full round, every 3rd round.
The ability to train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137). This training provides an excellent power-up for a Scout, since it lets you take 10' steps in place of 5' steps, enabling skirmish damage.

[pyrese]

BowStreetRunner: Thank you, I was not aware of shadowsilk armor. I'm not entirely sold on the viability of swift ambusher either and certainly not as a ranged attacker, but it fits the role (very much a support character) I want to fill and the 3 (or 4) level dip into scout will give me another precision damage option. I look forward to hearing more from you on this.

Curmudgeon: Unfortunately we are in greyhawk and adding a template would probably be out since I've already been running the character. I do agree with your analysis on the wilderness rogue, camo and hips come way to late.

I was not aware of the monk ACF or the sparring dummy; both of those would be ridiculously useful, but I may have a hard time justifying the RP of the monk levels. Always getting full attack with skirmish via 10 ft step + guaranteed sneak attack on the first attack every three rounds is pretty juicy.

[Curmudgeon]

I was not aware of the monk ACF or the sparring dummy; both of those would be ridiculously useful, but I may have a hard time justifying the RP of the monk levels.
If you're asking to justify being Lawful I don't think I can help you. But if you're asking for justification for Monk class levels, that's simply a matter of rounding out the character's fighting abilities. You're a small skirmisher with a ranged weapon. You'll try to avoid melee combat, but that's not always possible. Unarmed combat training means you can defend yourself even with your hands full holding your bow. Monk training is the best way to make yourself a well-rounded skirmisher. Where else are you going to learn to defend yourself by kicking your opponents while both hands are busy with a bow?

You could pick up the Cobra Strike Monk fighting style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) to grab Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, satisfying some of the prerequisites for a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for its Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. So the Monk levels are there both to round out your battlefield capabilities, and to help you get to the capabilities that make you a better ambusher.

[BowStreetRunner]

...adding a template would probably be out...There is always the collar of umbral metamorphisis, a magic item that actually grants the dark creature template to it's wearer. It comes in 2 forms, the 20+k gp version is continuous.

...I may have a hard time justifying the RP of the monk levels.Think Batman! Or for that matter any of a handful of other superhero characters who went off to Tibet or somewhere to train with the monks for a couple of years.

[Curmudgeon]

There is always the collar of umbral metamorphisis, a magic item that actually grants the dark creature template to it's wearer. It comes in 2 forms, the 20+k gp version is continuous.
The problem is that that item grants the very poorest of all the many versions of Hide in Plain Sight. You still need to supply cover/concealment before you're allowed to make Hide checks, and the ability just flat out fails in daylight (so half the time, outside).

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, I think there is a best way to go about this.

I am AFB right now, but I remember looking at this and thinking the following. Make sure you can get into improved skirmish with 1d6, I don't know if you can.

Ranger 19 / Scout 1 using improved skirmish to qualify.

You now get full sneak attack and better than full skirmish.

Now you have two solutions to the triggering issue.

1 - Melee anklebiter - Use travel devotion to move around combat, sliding into flanking positions to deal massive damage. You want to get a 40ft move speed as soon as you can to allow you to tumble into position.

2 - Ranged ghost sniper - This is feat intensive, but you want greater invisibility for lower levels and greater blinking for later. Go for Greater Manyshot and fill the sky with 15d6 arrows.

[BowStreetRunner]

...Scout 1 using improved skirmish to qualify....

Had to be some other way. Improved Skirmish has a prerequisite of Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC.

[pyrese]

Think Batman! Or for that matter any of a handful of other superhero characters who went off to Tibet or somewhere to train with the monks for a couple of years.

If you're asking to justify being Lawful I don't think I can help you. But if you're asking for justification for Monk class levels, that's simply a matter of rounding out the character's fighting abilities. You're a small skirmisher with a ranged weapon. You'll try to avoid melee combat, but that's not always possible. Unarmed combat training means you can defend yourself even with your hands full holding your bow. Monk training is the best way to make yourself a well-rounded skirmisher. Where else are you going to learn to defend yourself by kicking your opponents while both hands are busy with a bow?

Hmm, well I know what my gnome will be doing if there is a long enough lull between acts. I'll just have to convince our DM to skirt the Lawful pre-req. The justification for it in the PHB is a bit silly anyways.


Fouredged Sword: Unfortunately imp skirmish has 2d6/1ac pre-req, and even if it was only a 1d6 pre-req, it still wouldn't allow me to qualify for swift ambusher. (As a side note, I do already have 40 ft move speed. Whisper gnome has 30ft base, plus I took the quick trait from UA. So, after 3 scout I'll have 50ft move speed as a small character. Win!)

[BowStreetRunner]

I'll just have to convince our DM to skirt the Lawful pre-req.

Just remember: A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities. So you might go through a phase where your character gets all lawful and goes off to join the monks, but eventually his original alignment reasserts itself and he gets kicked out of the order. :smallwink:

[Curmudgeon]

Ranger 19 / Scout 1 using improved skirmish to qualify.

You now get full sneak attack and better than full skirmish.
Improved Skirmish doesn't qualify you for that, as noted; you'll never get more than +1d6 skirmish. Also there's no sneak attack in that combination.

:confused:

[Fouredged Sword]

Rogue...

I meant to say rogue.

:smallsigh:

My bad.

[Unusual Muse]

Chaos Monk (Dragon #335) is chaotic. :smallsmile:

[pyrese]

Chaos Monk (Dragon #335) is chaotic. :smallsmile:
Unfortunately my Gnome is Neutral Neutral. That and a munchkin in the party has caused the DM to kibosh most Dragon material. Thank you very much though! I'll probably have an easier time asserting that my gnome is focusing himself for intense training and therefore "lawful" for those levels.

[tricktroller]

I playe done of these. He killed Shar and took over the Plane of Shadow and her divine rank.... fun game. true evil insane whispergnome rogue/scout/prcs. I'll see if I can find him and give you the run down lol.

[pyrese]

Currently looking at this for the first 9 levels:

Stats


STR: 10
DEX: 18 (Lvl 4 and 8 stat points will go here and raise to 20)
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10


Progression


Rogue (Point blank shot)
Rogue
Rogue (Able Sniper)
Scout
Scout
Scout (Swift Ambusher)
Monk, cobra strike (Dodge) + 4 weeks training with Sparring Dummy of the Master
Monk, cobra strike (Mobility), ACF Invisible Fist
Rogue (Ascetic Rogue/Improved Skirmish/Darkstalker)

...

I figure probably not take Ascetic Rogue at 9, since it doesnt include your unarmed strikes becoming magic/adamantine, ect at higher level. Another alternative would be to take a 4th level of scout at 7 or 9 (if 7, bump both monk to 8 and 9) to get the bonus feat and pick up precise shot. If I got with Improved Skirmish at 9, then I'd probably go with Darkstalker at 12 and vice versa.

As far as Improved Skirmish goes, I'm planning to pick up one or two anklets or translocation. That combined with the training with the Sparring Dummy will give me unlimited Full attack w/ Skirmish and 2-4/day Full attack w/ Improved Skirmish. Add in at a minimum a Sneak Attack on the first attack every 3 rounds and I think I'll have my damage output up pretty well.

Precision Damage at lvl 9: SA +2d6, Skirm +2d6 / +2AC (+4d6 / +3AC with Improved).

In a round in which I use Invisible Fist, 10ft Step, and an Anklet of Translocation, my first attack (at lvl 9) with current equipment and within 30 ft would be +15 to hit at 1d4 + 2d6 + 4d6 followed by +10 to hit at 1d4 + 4d6 for an average of 27.875 (18.8 + 9.075) against AC 20. (Using fractional BAB from UA)

[Dusk Eclipse]

BowStreetRunner: Thank you, I was not aware of shadowsilk armor. I'm not entirely sold on the viability of swift ambusher either and certainly not as a ranged attacker, but it fits the role (very much a support character) I want to fill and the 3 (or 4) level dip into scout will give me another precision damage option. I look forward to hearing more from you on this.

Curmudgeon: Unfortunately we are in greyhawk and adding a template would probably be out since I've already been running the character. I do agree with your analysis on the wilderness rogue, camo and hips come way to late.

I was not aware of the monk ACF or the sparring dummy; both of those would be ridiculously useful, but I may have a hard time justifying the RP of the monk levels. Always getting full attack with skirmish via 10 ft step + guaranteed sneak attack on the first attack every three rounds is pretty juicy.

For the record Invisible Fist gives the invisibility condition, not the spell, which means that it doesn't break after you attack. IIRC it doesn't specify what type of ability it is, so by RAW you can go invisible even in a AMF; but all DMs are justified in ruling it as a Su ability.

[Curmudgeon]

For the record Invisible Fist gives the invisibility condition, not the spell, which means that it doesn't break after you attack. IIRC it doesn't specify what type of ability it is, so by RAW you can go invisible even in a AMF; but all DMs are justified in ruling it as a Su ability.
Your memory is faulty; the ACF text specifies the type very plainly:
Invisible fist is a supernatural ability.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I stand corrected.

[pyrese]

For the record Invisible Fist gives the invisibility condition, not the spell, which means that it doesn't break after you attack. IIRC it doesn't specify what type of ability it is, so by RAW you can go invisible even in a AMF; but all DMs are justified in ruling it as a Su ability.


Wow, Thank you Dusk. I had not made the connection that it was simply "you are invisible" and not "you are invisible per the spell"! That's even more powerful. Also, EoE lists Invisible Fist as an Su.