Half-Ogr/Half-Mino/Half Ogr/Half-Ir-Golem/Inc. Cons./Min. War/Eff Cre./Inc. Const

[visigani]

LA +0
+32 Str
-2 Dex
11 Wisdom (Note: not +11 Wisdom)
3 Charisma
+9 Natural Armor
Large Size
1d8 Gore Attack (Depending on if you see this as a "special quality" or not.

I think this is legit... too cheesy?

[AuraTwilight]

I really wanna know how you came to 0 LA, considering Incarnate Construct only gives -2 LA and template LAs stack.

[Crasical]

How did you half-ogre twice?

[tyckspoon]

Somewhere in there it probably doesn't work the way you think it does, but you're going to have to more clearly lay out what you're doing and in what order to be sure.

[Chronos]

Also, isn't half-golem LA --?

[Bromidrosis]

As a rule I'd say it's impossible to apply more than 2 "Half-___" templates to a character. If you're a Half-Ogre/Half-Minotaur, that means one of your parents was a minotaur and the other was an ogre. Even if one of the parents was themselves a Half-____/Half-____, there's no "Quarter-____" template so you'd have to lose one or the other.

So yeah, I'd say it's a bit heavy on the cheese.

[Spuddles]

As a rule....

That's actually not a rule.

[LOTRfan]

Especially since it's sort of hard to have a half-ogre, half-minotaur elf have a minotaur and ogre parent, but no elf.

The templates shouldn't work that way. Adding half-ogre to an elf makes it 50% Ogre, 50% Elf. If the Half-minotaur template is applied, it is 25% Ogre, 25% Elf, 50% Minotaur (or another 25%-25%-50% combination, if you wish). And you keep going like that.

[visigani]

Half Ogre is both a race and a template... and if you'll notice I added Incarnate Construct Twice... resulting in an effective -4 LA.
Though logically insane, there's nothing in RAW that i can see that bars a Half Ogre from having a Half Ogre template, and it's especially nice because you end up just as strong as an ogre, almost as tough as an ogre, quicker than an ogre... and hella prettier!!

[The Trickster]

It's not a rule, but you aren't a half-ogre if you aren't half ogre. So, I don't think you would get the full plus to STR and such. But thats based more on opinion than actual fact.

[danzibr]

Half Ogre is both a race and a template... and if you'll notice I added Incarnate Construct Twice... resulting in an effective -4 LA.
Though logically insane, there's nothing in RAW that i can see that bars a Half Ogre from having a Half Ogre template, and it's especially nice because you end up just as strong as an ogre, almost as tough as an ogre, quicker than an ogre... and hella prettier!!
?????????????????????????

[AuraTwilight]

if you'll notice I added Incarnate Construct Twice... resulting in an effective -4 LA.

Yea, you can't do that.

[visigani]

Yea, you can't do that.

Prove it?????

[Gem]

Once again. How about you tell us what you did in a less minimalist fashion, then we can tell you whether or not it's rules legal.

By the way, even if all this is rules legal, half the content you're using is from Dragon Magazine (which is notoriously terribly balanced), and the other half is at best a very technical interpretation of the rules. So, to answer this question,


I think this is legit... too cheesy?
Probably far too cheesy for most campaigns, yes.

[Snowbluff]

Also, isn't half-golem LA --?

Actually, the notes from the Incarnate Construct specify that it's for specifically making constructs with no LA playable. :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

Prove it?????
To apply the Incarnate Construct template, the base creature must be a construct. Since applying the Incarnate Construct template to a creature changes the creature's type to Humanoid or Giant, it becomes ineligible for a second application of the template (even pretending that you can apply the same template to a creature twice).

[Somensjev]

As a rule I'd say it's impossible to apply more than 2 "Half-___" templates to a character. If you're a Half-Ogre/Half-Minotaur, that means one of your parents was a minotaur and the other was an ogre. Even if one of the parents was themselves a Half-____/Half-____, there's no "Quarter-____" template so you'd have to lose one or the other.

So yeah, I'd say it's a bit heavy on the cheese.

actually, in the book of templates (i think that's the one, it might be a different one) it specifically states that if you are a half-___/half-___/half-___/half-___ then you are one quater everything, and it even has specific rules for quater-___ templates or even one-sixty-fourth-___

[visigani]

Once again. How about you tell us what you did in a less minimalist fashion, then we can tell you whether or not it's rules legal.

By the way, even if all this is rules legal, half the content you're using is from Dragon Magazine (which is notoriously terribly balanced), and the other half is at best a very technical interpretation of the rules. So, to answer this question,


Probably far too cheesy for most campaigns, yes.


Alright so, picture a Half Ogre(template)/Half-Minotaur(template) Half Ogre.
Now, take that Hogre, and tear off his limbs and replace them with iron ones until he becomes a Half Construct, then have someone cast Incarnate Golem on it.
Got that picture of that creature in your head? Big bad dude that's all kinds of scary and super strong?
Great, now make an effigy of that big bad dude.
And once you're done making that effigy, cast incarnate construct on it.
And voila.

[visigani]

actually, in the book of templates (i think that's the one, it might be a different one) it specifically states that if you are a half-___/half-___/half-___/half-___ then you are one quater everything, and it even has specific rules for quater-___ templates or even one-sixty-fourth-___

Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. -ESS ARE DEE.

[visigani]

To apply the Incarnate Construct template, the base creature must be a construct. Since applying the Incarnate Construct template to a creature changes the creature's type to Humanoid or Giant, it becomes ineligible for a second application of the template (even pretending that you can apply the same template to a creature twice).

Where is that written? In both instances the base creature is a construct... and in both instances they can be incarnated.

[tyckspoon]

Ok, so you have a base race Half-Ogre (LA +2, using the most recent version in Races of Destiny) that has the Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur templates (both LA +1, net LA +4.) Assuming you have a DM that will let you use both the template and base race versions of Half-Ogre, this has the following adjustments:

Large size (inherent to Half-Ogre race)
+14 Strength (racial mods, no size change mods because Half-Ogre was already Large)
+4 Con
-6 Int
-4 Cha
-2 Dex
+8 Natural Armor.
Giant Type.

This Half-Half-Ogre-Minotaur then loses a limb and has it replaced with an insane magical experiment, becoming a Half Iron Golem. Presumably he fails his will save and turns into a Construct now, because this is required to make him a legal target for Incarnate Construct. His stat adjustments are
+26 Strength
Non-ability Con (removed when he became a Construct)
-10 Cha
-12 Int
-4 Dex
+11 Natural Armor

His LA is.. undefined. I want to apologize in advance for yelling, but THIS IS WHERE IT BREAKS. Per the update of MM II, Half-Golems have an LA of -. Not 0, -, just like the half-golem's new Con score. You can't just assume it keeps the same LA as before and continue on like nothing changed; you have a literally undefined value here, which means any mechanic that relies on LAs/Effective Character Levels just throws up its hands and quits. (Note that this happens *again* at the end of the chain, when you attempt to Incarnate an Effigy Creature.) Also, the Half-Golem gains its golem type's spell immunity, which means you can't affect it with the SR: Yes Incarnate Construct spell. But there's ways around that, so we'll ignore it for now..

And pretending we can actually do this, I'll continue because I've typed far too much to quit now..

You have a Half-Golem Construct with an LA of at least +4. You Incarnate it.
Type: Giant.
Special abilities: None.
Natural Armor: +9.
Stat mods remain the same, except re-roll Con and raise anything under 3 to 3 (Cha and Int are probably at this point now.)
So let's assume..
Strength +26
Con ~13 (4d6 best 3)
Dex -4
Cha, Int 3.
LA 2 + NaN.

And at this point I suddenly become tired of doing this. Anyway. Add in Mineral Warrior, make an Effigy Creature of the resulting pile of stats (this one is actually legit, incidentally- if you just want a really strong minion, you can build an Effigy of a ludicrously templated critter. You just can't Incarnate it and use it as a PC, because LA - again.)

[Karnith]

Where is that written? In both instances the base creature is a construct... and in both instances they can be incarnated.
No, if you take a Construct and apply the Incarnate Construct template, it becomes a Humanoid if it is Medium or smaller, or Giant if it is Large or larger. As a Humanoid or Giant, it is an invalid target for the Incarnate Construct template. Hence, the template can only be applied once.

EDIT: Ah, I see, you've got the Effigy Creature template on there. Unfortunately for you, an Effigy Creature has LA: -, and hence is not eligible for players to use.

EDIT again: Swordsage'd.

[Chronos]

Ok, so you have a base race Half-Ogre (LA +2, using the most recent version in Races of Destiny) that has the Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur templates (both LA +1, net LA +4.) Assuming you have a DM that will let you use both the template and base race versions of Half-Ogre, this has the following adjustments:

chief grukgruk half-orc, too. Other half, also orc.

[danzibr]

Ha. I would so let one of my players be a Half-Ogre Half-Ogre.

[AuraTwilight]

Prove it?????

As someone above explained, the instances where you turn your creature into - LA pretty much ****s over the entire process. You're going to wind up with a creature of either +2 or +4 LA, or a creature with LA -, which is unplayable, or a creature with negative LA somehow, which isn't rules legal by any means.

Hitting +0 LA just isn't possible with this combination, putting aside the fact that this is borderline impossible and no DM will let you run this character.

[Snowbluff]

I'd like to point out once again that Incarnate Construct assigns an LA to constructs. The template is made so you can play constructs.

Incarnate Construct has the LA set to a minimum of 0, so the grounds of -2 being unplayable is not valid.

[tyckspoon]

I'd like to point out once again that Incarnate Construct assigns an LA to constructs. The template is made so you can play constructs.

Incarnate Construct has the LA set to a minimum of 0, so the grounds of -2 being unplayable is not valid.

No, it doesn't. It reduces the existing LA by 2 to a minimum of 0. "-" -2 is.. not a number. It means nothing to the game. You aren't generating an LA where there wasn't one before; you still need an actual LA to adjust with the template. It's great for generating giant-like minions (if for some reason you want to go through the horribly expensive process of creating a construct and then.. turn it into a really weak giant.. :smallsigh:) but it really just does not work for turning a construct into a PC.

(And to point out probable intent: the example Incarnate Stone Golem, a creature in a book all about playing weird monster variants as PCs- does *not* have a listed LA.)

[Arundel]

Prove it?????

Thats not the way logic works. If you make a claim, you have to provide evidence for your claim. Your evidence can't be, "You can't prove I'm NOT right."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Fates]

Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. -ESS ARE DEE.

Right, because every ruling made in the SRD was comprehensively thought out in a way that would ensure the game would be balanced and sensical.

[Snowbluff]

No, it doesn't. It reduces the existing LA by 2 to a minimum of 0. "-" -2 is.. not a number. It means nothing to the game. You aren't generating an LA where there wasn't one before; you still need an actual LA to adjust with the template. It's great for generating giant-like minions (if for some reason you want to go through the horribly expensive process of creating a construct and then.. turn it into a really weak giant.. :smallsigh:) but it really just does not work for turning a construct into a PC.
I haven't heard a reason other that "I say so."
[/quote]
(And to point out probable intent: the example Incarnate Stone Golem, a creature in a book all about playing weird monster variants as PCs- does *not* have a listed LA.)[/QUOTE]

The book in question is 3rd edition, meaning the LA would not be listed on the sample character if it was not 0, IIRC.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd like to point out once again that Incarnate Construct assigns an LA to constructs. The template is made so you can play constructs.

Incarnate Construct has the LA set to a minimum of 0, so the grounds of -2 being unplayable is not valid.

If we're going to be that specific, then someone should point out that the Incarnate Construct template erases all special attacks the creature originally had, and resets their Saves to poor with a good Fortitude, they don't have any skills or feats, and their Hit Dice are reduced to d8.

So either way, the OP's write-up is totally wrong.

[Snowbluff]

If we're going to be that specific, then someone should point out that the Incarnate Construct template erases all special attacks the creature originally had, and resets their Saves to poor with a good Fortitude, they don't have any skills or feats, and their Hit Dice are reduced to d8.

So either way, the OP's write-up is totally wrong.

Pfft, I don't care. It's a gross misused of the template. It's be much better to make an insectile creature, then be effigied or something, then follow up with incarnate constructs. You'd get some arms out of the deal, at least.

[AuraTwilight]

Again, no. Incarnate Construct can only be used on a creature with vaguely humanoid anatomy: Two legs, two arm, one torso, one head.

[Roguenewb]

Alright so, picture a Half Ogre(template)/Half-Minotaur(template) Half Ogre.
Now, take that Hogre, and tear off his limbs and replace them with iron ones until he becomes a Half Construct, then have someone cast Incarnate Golem on it.
Got that picture of that creature in your head? Big bad dude that's all kinds of scary and super strong?
Great, now make an effigy of that big bad dude.
And once you're done making that effigy, cast incarnate construct on it.
And voila.

This works. It is a known terrible wonky rules interaction. Don't let the fact that double half doesn't make sense confuse you, the rules do lots of things that don't make sense.

Now, if effigy is in fact LA -- that's a problem. I'm sure if you go dumpster diving through every damn splat you can find two templates for turning you to construct. Then turn yourself back. The old standby was the Incarnate Construct ( Phrenic Warforged). LA 0. You need 1 inherited construct template and at least 1 acquired template. (you can use 2 acquired if you must).

This is not an unknown problem. Half-Mintotaur Half Ogre Half Golem incarnate construct is la +2 with a comical strength. Find a second template and repeat.

[Snowbluff]

Again, no. Incarnate Construct can only be used on a creature with vaguely humanoid anatomy: Two legs, two arm, one torso, one head.

Oh right.

Okay. Dustform time. And the legality can't be disputed. Dustform has LA. +4 Str, -2 Dex with each iteration.