Homebrew alt to spellcasting classes?

[Immabozo]

My idea was that, since wizard as a class, is just someone who studies magic and sorcerer is in your blood, I was thinking about a change to how they work, that also makes other classes possibly better.

Wizard based spellcasting is all "roll a knowledge check" and the school is based on a different knowledge skill. Wizard's operate off feats to get magic. The wizard class, simply gives a large number of skill points and wizard feats.

One spell level to the next depends on you ability to make that knowledge check, or not (for wizards) or if you take a feat (for sorcerers).

Then, in an attempt to balance sorcerer, and also since it goes with the fluff of Sorcerers, IMO, sorcerers have much less intricate somatic components, letting them ignore arcane spell failure due to the armor they are wearing. (fighter feats could qualify for sorcerer spell level feats)

[Grod_The_Giant]

a) Wrong forum, buddy-- I think you want Homebrew.

b) You're proposing (in the context of 3.5 D&D?) that magic be entirely feat-based, yes? Take a feat to learn a spell, and roll a Knowledge check to cast it?

The first part is basically an enormous nerf to the number of spells known, which is... efficient in toning down power, if not necessarily fun, while the second does not and cannot work under the current system. It's easy to get arbitrarily high skill bonuses in 3.5, but doing so takes system mastery, so... wherever you draw the line in terms of DC, it doesn't work. Too low, and only newbies (ie, the guys who aren't hurting game balance) struggle. Too high, and optimizers still make their checks, but new/low-op players (ie, the ones who aren't breaking things) struggle.

[Immabozo]

a) Wrong forum, buddy-- I think you want Homebrew.

b) You're proposing (in the context of 3.5 D&D?) that magic be entirely feat-based, yes? Take a feat to learn a spell, and roll a Knowledge check to cast it?

The first part is basically an enormous nerf to the number of spells known, which is... efficient in toning down power, if not necessarily fun, while the second does not and cannot work under the current system. It's easy to get arbitrarily high skill bonuses in 3.5, but doing so takes system mastery, so... wherever you draw the line in terms of DC, it doesn't work. Too low, and only newbies (ie, the guys who aren't hurting game balance) struggle. Too high, and optimizers still make their checks, but new/low-op players (ie, the ones who aren't breaking things) struggle.

oh, damn, haha, been a while since I posted in that forum and I thought (without reading) that this was in.

The idea was either-or. I guess you're right tho. it wouldn't work without a completely new system. But assuming a new system was created to support it, what do you think?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The idea was either-or. I guess you're right tho. it wouldn't work without a completely new system. But assuming a new system was created to support it, what do you think?
I dunno. Too little detail to judge.

[Immabozo]

I dunno. Too little detail to judge.

Fair enough. Thanks.

[Grinner]

How about a template for Sorcerer?

[Immabozo]

That would work much better than feats! Maybe LA 1 and then it has a wizard's spell progression? So then it has the same delay on spells as sorcerers have now of 1 level behind. LA buyoff becomes real nice, real fast!

[Grod_The_Giant]

That would work much better than feats! Maybe LA 1 and then it has a wizard's spell progression? So then it has the same delay on spells as sorcerers have now of 1 level behind. LA buyoff becomes real nice, real fast!

Does that mean that I could, say, take cleric levels while progressing my sorcerer template?

[Grinner]

That would work much better than feats! Maybe LA 1 and then it has a wizard's spell progression? So then it has the same delay on spells as sorcerers have now of 1 level behind. LA buyoff becomes real nice, real fast!

Umm....sure? I was really thinking '"Sorcerer = inherited magic" and "inherited magic = inherited template", therefore "Sorcerer = inherited template"'.

Keep in mind that these changes are going to make magic much more accessible but also much more difficult to master. That's going to change the flavor of the entire game.

[Immabozo]

Does that mean that I could, say, take cleric levels while progressing my sorcerer template?

I couldn't see why not. You still only have the one set of actions.

And plus, there are very few spells available to sorcerers that are not available to clerics via domains.


Umm....sure? I was really thinking '"Sorcerer = inherited magic" and "inherited magic = inherited template", therefore "Sorcerer = inherited template"'.

Keep in mind that these changes are going to make magic much more accessible but also much more difficult to master. That's going to change the flavor of the entire game.

True, but I think it brings flavor more behind how magic is SUPPOSED to work. If you study magic, doesn't matter if you also study fighting styles, you are still capable of learning it. If you ARE someone who naturally has access to magic, it doesn't matter one bit that you learned to fight and pick pockets a little better. Your natural ability for magic will either grow, or stay the same regardless.

It would be re-making the game though at this point, now that I really think about it, not an "easy fix" like I was first thinking.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I couldn't see why not. You still only have the one set of actions.
Because for the low, low cost of 1 LA, I'm progressing at full speed in one of the most powerful classes in the game... on top of whatever other class I use. There is no reason why anyone would choose not to take that option, from a purely mechanical point of view, which is... a good sign that the ability is overpowered.

A better potential solution is to have the template grant you a few 0-level spells and a caster level, with the option to learn more spells via feat-- 1 or 2 spells per feat, say.

[erikun]

If we are talking about D&D3e, then we've seen two similar situations for abilities of existing creatures and races to be distributed over levels. One is the Racial Paragon Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm), which accents racial abilities, and one is Level-Adjusted Races (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), as a way to play a race at lower levels than their LA would allow. In both cases, new powers or abilities are unlocked only if the character chooses to take "levels" in their racial class to do so. Doing so grants them more powers, generally explained by them practicing their natural powers and becoming better at them.

The parallel to this would be to just have the sorcerer class stay as it is. The character can practice their natural sorcerous talent, which is pretty much the idea behind the class already.


There is a mechanic somewhat similar to what you are trying: Bloodlines. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) Note that taking "Bloodline levels" is pretty similar to LA, and that no existing bloodlines are anywhere near as powerful as sorcerer class levels.

[Immabozo]

hmm, it is an odd idea. I guess a good example would be Merlin, from the king Arthur legend. He had natural magical ability and spent time studying and practicing his magic, becoming more and more skilled as he did so

[Grod_The_Giant]

hmm, it is an odd idea. I guess a good example would be Merlin, from the king Arthur legend. He had natural magical ability and spent time studying and practicing his magic, becoming more and more skilled as he did so
That, ah... is pretty much a perfect description for the Sorcerer as-is.

[Immabozo]

That, ah... is pretty much a perfect description for the Sorcerer as-is.

That is what it was intended to be, an agreement with you

[Grinner]

If I may hazard a suggestion, I think you should hash out the setting first and then decide on how to represent the fantasy archetypes. If dragons come down from their mountains of gold for sex often, leading to entire populations of dragon-human hybrids, then an inherited template or racial class might be in order. If those sorts of things occur less often, then the innate-magic spellcaster archetype might be better relegated to a class.

[Immabozo]

If I may hazard a suggestion, I think you should hash out the setting first and then decide on how to represent the fantasy archetypes. If dragons come down from their mountains of gold for sex often, leading to entire populations of dragon-human hybrids, then an inherited template or racial class might be in order. If those sorts of things occur less often, then the innate-magic spellcaster archetype might be better relegated to a class.

that's true, I guess it is, or can be, a very setting specific change