Hey guys, Im making a VoP monk

[inuyasha]

I frequently see people not liking the monk, and I dont know why, so me and my DM are going to test a level 20, VoP, human monk (totally awesome)

Houserules

range increments: with thrown weapons, you can throw out to a number of range increments equal to your strength bonus, with a -2 penalty on the attack roll for every increment after the first
you gain your strength bonus to damage with thrown weapons
when rolling dice for hit points, reroll the lower half of the die
ability scores: 5d6 drop the lowest
sources allowed for this guy: all I used was BoED and PhB, i dont have ToB, incarnum, ToM, complete warrior, etc.
Knowledge arcana is not a class skill for monks...because thats stupid
mundane ammunition (regular arrows, regular bolts, regular sling stones etc) doesnt need to be counted on your character sheet
copper pieces can be used as sling bullets (because their useless :p)


Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=598222) is a link to the character
Note: yes yes I know I didnt write down all the monk abilities (THEY HAVE LOTS), and I didnt uncheck the boxes that are class skills in the skills section :p

also note: i use a hybrid of 3.0/3.5 so some stuff could look 3.0 to you, just a warning.

so...thoughts? I want to go straight monk btw ;) so please dont suggest PrCs

[Gavinfoxx]

So how do you handle a flying creature with improved invisibility attacking you at long range? I believe the True Sight has a range limit, yes?

[dascarletm]

So how do you handle a flying creature with improved invisibility attacking you at long range? I believe the True Sight has a range limit, yes?

Probably an allied wizard.:smallwink:

[TaiLiu]

Probably an allied wizard.:smallwink:
They're testing it, and one doubts that there'll be assistance with the test.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So how do you handle a flying creature with improved invisibility attacking you at long range? I believe the True Sight has a range limit, yes?

Yeah... it doesn't need to be quite this specific, but a harpy archer is untouchable.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure what thoughts you're looking for. Have fun?

You'll probably need other houserules than that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yeah... it doesn't need to be quite this specific, but a harpy archer is untouchable.

The CR 11 creature here?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/harpy.htm

Yea, composite longbows will outrange slings for sure... Slings get 5 RI, composite longbows get 10, right?

[inuyasha]

well, with the range increment houserule i have a little bit more of an advantage vs flying creatures. The true seeing...when in doubt, jump XD


also, just so people know, my DM, while an amazing DM, is also nice, and not prone to superjerkness like ive heard stories of (and yes he knows the rules, hes played every edition since they first came out [except 4th and 5th {if thats out yet} because 4e is not that good])


The CR 11 creature here?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/harpy.htm

Yea, composite longbows will outrange slings for sure... Slings get 5 RI, composite longbows get 10, right?

im not using slings, using javelins, though i see your point

[TaiLiu]

Hold. What exactly are you testing?

[inuyasha]

im testing how long it can last, ive got no healing potions, no cleric, no barbarian, no level 20 wizard, no magic item shenanigans

[eggynack]

There's really not all that much advice to give. By level 20, you've moved far past the point when exalted feats would be useful, and you don't really have much in the way of choices. There would be some neat ACF's for you to take, but your lack of book access means that you don't have them. This is obviously going to turn into a crazy VoP/monk bashing thread, because I have the urge to just do that all over the place, and I doubt I'm the only one, but I'll hold off for now. In the meantime, why is it stupid for monks to have knowledge arcana? They get a whole bunch of explicitly magical abilities. It just seems like an odd nerf, and you seemed to think it was an obvious one to give.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, Javelin max range:

30' x 5 = 150'

Sling:
50' x 5 = 250'

Composite Longbow max range:

110 x 10 = 1100'

Sucks to be you!

So the harpy archer flies to 220' above you, and rains arrows on you and does her supernatural ability thing, until you are dead. And there is nothing you can do about it. Just average how much damage you can take doing that until you die. You could solve this via math.

And if you wanted to put him up against an optimized wizard, the answer would be 'until the wizard decides to kill him', perhaps before the initiative order happens. IE, under a fraction of a second.

Also, check out a pixie firing sleep arrows at 220' above from you while invisible...

[inuyasha]

Okay -snip-
see the range increment houserule, though i do see your point

and if anyone has any suggestions, non homebrew please, tell me about changes I can make, and I will say if i have the book or not (or if its on dndtools.eu, please provide a link) I do have sword n fist, AEG, and some other books, just let me know of any good suggestions

[Gavinfoxx]

So calculate your max range with your strength. What IS your max range with those javelins?

[inuyasha]

240 ft :p that sucks

[Rubik]

see the range increment houserule, though i do see your point

and if anyone has any suggestions, non homebrew please, tell me about changes I can make, and I will say if i have the book or not (or if its on dndtools.eu, please provide a link) I do have sword n fist, AEG, and some other books, just let me know of any good suggestionsVoP and 20 levels of monk do not work well together under any circumstances unless it's either an incredibly low-powered, low-wealth, low-magic game where everyone is restricted to tier 4 and below AND the DM plays really low-key encounters weak enough that won't utterly slaughter you, or...

...you optimize the living bejeezus out of yourself using alternative class features, feats, and your race to make up for all the myriad shortcomings of both VoP AND monk, and nobody is any higher than tier 3, and the DM plays really low-key encounters weak enough that won't utterly slaughter you.

If you want classes that work reasonably well with VoP (ie, are not utterly crippled by it), you'll have to go with druid, sorcerer (maybe), one of the classes in Tome of Battle, or one of the psionic classes. Very little else can function without magic items (or even a spellbook).

[Gavinfoxx]

And you can't fly. A normal monk definitely could by items by level 20. Seeing the problems with vow of poverty yet?

[Psyren]

How about incorporeal/ethereal creatures? Negative Levels? Ability Damage/Drain?

[Gavinfoxx]

How about incorporeal/ethereal creatures? Negative Levels? Ability Damage/Drain?

Ooohh, good ones! Please, OP, answer those. Consider that any abilities to become ethereal dont last for you, and the creature could just kite you while those abilities expend...

[eggynack]

If you want classes that work reasonably well with VoP (ie, are not utterly crippled by it), you'll have to go with druid, sorcerer (maybe), one of the classes in Tome of Battle, or one of the psionic classes. Very little else can function without magic items (or even a spellbook).
Don't incarnum classes do alright? I don't know too much about it, but that's always been my understanding.

[inuyasha]

well my DM a while back had a very effective DMPC (while not overpowered) level 3 dvati VoP monk who also had touch of golden ice, needless to say she was eventually retired later at higher levels (it was a DMPC so we were fine with the loss :p)

I want to test VoP monks but I dont want to recreate what he did. I will give more details of how it goes when I actually use the character

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don't incarnum classes do alright? I don't know too much about it, but that's always been my understanding.

Basically, replace "Tome of Battle" with "Totemist", and you're good. Incarnate may or may not work, I'm not very well-versed in them. Swordsage and Warblade have ways of dealing with flying enemies (although Warblade can still easily be outranged by a flying ranged enemy, and Swordsage doesn't get true flight until level 15, where they have to blow a stance on perma-Air Walk) and invisible enemies (the level 1 Tiger Claw stance that gives Scent isn't very good, but it works if you don't want to get Hearing The Air (but why wouldn't you want Hearing The Air?)), but it's basically the bare-minimum viability with VoP; they're much better off with magic items.

[Karnith]

Don't incarnum classes do alright? I don't know too much about it, but that's always been my understanding.
Well, two of the three incarnum classes do all right. Good luck playing a gearless soulborn!

[Psyren]

Don't incarnum classes do alright? I don't know too much about it, but that's always been my understanding.

They indeed do "all right" (Totemist moreso than Incarnate or *shudder* Soulborn) but they are still weakened of course. The main problem is that, even if you don't wear Incarnum Focus items or take Split Chakra, there are still slots your soulmelds don't fill e.g. the ring slots.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I generally just blank soulborn from my mind when I think about incarnum. There's basically no class in the entire game that's actually better with VoP. Druid comes closest, but if you have access to wilding clasps, there's just no comparison.

[Rubik]

Don't incarnum classes do alright? I don't know too much about it, but that's always been my understanding.Incarnum does alright, yes, but they didn't really come to mind when I posted. And that pretty much rounds out all the classes that aren't horrifically screwed over by VoP. Wizards need to buy spells and spellbooks (except for easy-bake eidetic wizards), clerics need holy symbols, artificers need access to magic items like acidborn sharks need acid trips, and everything tier 4 and below is all but useless without magic items to shore them up.


Well, two of the three incarnum classes do all right. Good luck playing a gearless soulborn!A gearless what? I've never heard of those before. What on earth are you talking about?

...You know, on second thought, I don't think I want to know. Whatever it is, it sounds like Yamcha. Disappointing.

[dascarletm]

Dragon wrought kobold for flight.

[Rubik]

Dragon wrought kobold for flight.Dragonborn warforged for flight AND immunities.

[dascarletm]

Dragonborn warforged for flight AND immunities.

or that.

Flight doesn't necessarily get full use. It depends on if the terrain allows for it. If you are mostly in town, NBD. If you are in caves/dungeons/dense forests/jungles/anything with a ceiling or a place you can go into, NBD. Invisibility could be mostly negated by blind-fight and a buffed listen.

[inuyasha]

oh, and my DM just told me I qualify for sainthood...yay :D

[Psyren]

You still haven't mentioned how you plan to deal with incorporeal/ethereal creatures, negative levels, or ability damage/drain. Is your DM just not going to use monsters with those abilities? By level 20, hazards like that are not rare at all, and VoP doesn't deal with any of them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

First off, yes, take the Sainthood. You're going to need all the help that you can get.

Too bad you're not allowed access to Magic of Incarnum - while not a fix-all, it could be a godsend.

[Kumori]

Just an fyi, Strength to damage with thrown weapons isn't a houserule, it's a part of the game.

[Rubik]

Just an fyi, Strength to damage with thrown weapons isn't a houserule, it's a part of the game.It is if you get it to shurikens...

[Pickford]

It is if you get it to shurikens...

Shurikens count as both ammo and thrown weapons, so no it isn't.

[Rubik]

Shurikens count as both ammo and thrown weapons, so no it isn't.You know, I think you're actually right for once. I could've sworn shurikens had a clause stating that you couldn't add your Strength modifier to damage, but I don't see it in the entry anywhere.

[Emperor Tippy]

So how do you handle a flying creature with improved invisibility attacking you at long range? I believe the True Sight has a range limit, yes?

Yep, only 120 feet. And it does nothing to, say, allow you to see an invisible creature that also has Mind Blank up.

[Pickford]

You know, I think you're actually right for once. I could've sworn shurikens had a clause stating that you couldn't add your Strength modifier to damage, but I don't see it in the entry anywhere.

Still limited to 50' (unless you are crazy and pick up ranged feats to become a shuriken flurrying lunatic!)

edit: I think the real problem is the shuriken is an exotic weapon, not a simple weapon. :smalleek:

[Rubik]

Still limited to 50' (unless you are crazy and pick up ranged feats to become a shuriken flurrying lunatic!)They're still quite useful if you add morphing and sizing so you can get useful properties added on for 1/50 the price of a melee weapon.

[Kumori]

They're still quite useful if you add morphing and sizing so you can get useful properties added on for 1/50 the price of a melee weapon.

They erratta-ed that and I didn't even know! I had never looked it up on the SRD since I knew my DMG showed it as being full price for one, but the SRD says otherwise. Thank you for causing me to take a look! :smallbiggrin: