Vampire Necromancer

[Blackhawk748]

i may have posted this a long time ago, but here it goes again. Now im gonna be a Dread Necromancer and i obviously wanna be a vampire. Now my big problem is that the Vampire template is horrifyingly crippling for a caster, and the Savage Species progression isnt much better. Now im looking for something that makes me feel like a vampire (undead, durable, turns into gaseous form upon death, etc) but i dont need Lord of the Night, or some of the other abilities, without the viscous LA. I was thinking just using Vampire Spawn and saying im a full fledged Vamp, but if anyone knows of something better id love to hear about it.

If anyone plays Warhammer Fantasy, im modeling my character after a Vampire Count.

PS: My character is going to be a lord, we'll be using the rules from AEG Kingdoms, so super optimized isnt really an issue.

[Alex12]

i may have posted this a long time ago, but here it goes again. Now im gonna be a Dread Necromancer and i obviously wanna be a vampire. Now my big problem is that the Vampire template is horrifyingly crippling for a caster, and the Savage Species progression isnt much better. Now im looking for something that makes me feel like a vampire (undead, durable, turns into gaseous form upon death, etc) but i dont need Lord of the Night, or some of the other abilities, without the viscous LA. I was thinking just using Vampire Spawn and saying im a full fledged Vamp, but if anyone knows of something better id love to hear about it.

If anyone plays Warhammer Fantasy, im modeling my character after a Vampire Count.

PS: My character is going to be a lord, we'll be using the rules from AEG Kingdoms, so super optimized isnt really an issue.

Refluff a Necropolitan. Or try to convince your DM to let you take this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%28DnD_Other%29/New_Rules#Vampires) LA +0 template, with whatever mods you feel are appropriate.

[Roguenewb]

I second the necropolitan thing. The death dodging abilities are always gonna cost, because they are so powerful. 3 levels of the savage progression isn't super terrible. But still only once per day.

[Komatik]

My favourite alternate Vampire template (though I'd make some changes still purely out of extreme distaste of LA and most level-dependant racial mechanics, "proper" balance be damned).
Still haven't figured out why the hell the bloodsucking is ability drain and not ability damage, either. Still, this is about as good as it gets:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220585

[Gnaeus]

There is always half vampire from Libris Mortis, (kind of weak for its +2 LA, but not useless, thematically appropriate and better than actually taking vampire.)

Even better, there is a 0 LA race on the PFSRD called Dhampir. Borrow away. Then, you can call yourself a vampire, were raised by vampires, and no one is going to say that you AREN'T a vampire count.

[Komatik]

The PF Dhampir is a prime example of something being lame-ified to hell and back to force it into LA 0.

[Gnaeus]

Actually, it is a pretty nice base for a Dread Necro. +2 Cha helps with your casting. Negative ability affinity lets you heal yourself with your touch attacks and neg energy bursts. You don't get full undead immunities, although you do get a nice saving throw bonus, and you don't have to worry being turned.

Considering that you lose a level when you take Necropolitan, I think Dhampir is very arguably the BEST race for starting DNs. It is far and away stronger for a caster than taking a +2 LA template, at least until you get a chance to buy the template off.

[Komatik]

Oh, no doubt it is good for a Dread Necro. But it just doesn't feel very vampiric. Cool stuff gets diluted to some skill bonuses and it tends to focus more on being half-undead than being a Vampire. When I think of Vampires, things like eternal life, iron will, sorcery (particularily charm/dominate type, necromancy, shapeshifting, flight/walking on walls) spring to mind.

Detect Undead? It's about ten miles away from being on the list, and so horrifically lame I want to stake myself, to boot. Looking like a corpse, yet described as seductive? And dear god having to lose the miserable SLA to even have freaking fangs. Ironically, both the fangs and speaking with critters things feel more vampire-like than what was chosen for the default set.
The -2 Con also feels odd, and is exactly the sort of stuff that's done just to fit stuff into a template or because LA0.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Refluff a Necropolitan. Or try to convince your DM to let you take this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%28DnD_Other%29/New_Rules#Vampires) LA +0 template, with whatever mods you feel are appropriate.

I second this template. I have recently taken the stance that a vampires main power should come from living a really long time and thus getting more powerful. This template fits that idea, I think.

One of the main things that puts vampires a cut above the other undead (apart from pyramid minion cheese) is outrageous durability (NPCs, obviously LA kills it for PCs) mainly from gaseous form upon death. It should really be about the third thing to go when slimming down a vampire. (First is control over spawn; second is negative level slam.) If you insist upon using gaseous form upon death, you can probably add it to this template and make it a +2 LA, IMHO. I think gaseous form on 0hp on an undead is worth 2 LA because it makes you really freaking durable.

Otherwise just take levels of the paragon class below the vampire template.

[Komatik]

The Paragon class doesn't even work. Regenration on Undead? Uh, yeah. Then again it's dandwiki.

Let's see:
Undead are not subject to nonlethal damage, giving one Regeneration makes it flat out immune to damage. Gaseous Form at will on top of that is just gravy on top of the cheesecake.
Blood Pool is broken.
Hypnotic Gaze seems like it's just flat out broken as well.
Full casting.

What is this, cheesecake hidden inside a mound of feta cubes and then covered with molten cheddar and topped with a kobold ornament carved out of brie?

[Karnith]

The Paragon class doesn't even work. Regenration on Undead? Uh, yeah. Then again it's dandwiki.

Let's see:
Undead are not subject to nonlethal damage, giving one Regeneration makes it flat out immune to damage. Gaseous Form at will on top of that is just gravy on top of the cheesecake.
Blood Pool is broken.
Hypnotic Gaze seems like it's just flat out broken as well.
Full casting.

What is this, cheesecake hidden inside a mound of feta cubes and then covered with molten cheddar and topped with a kobold ornament carved out of brie?
It's from one of Frank & K's Tomes, which were specifically designed to force everything up to tier 1 levels of power. It also adds in extra rules, including the Dark Minded and Unliving subtypes (both described on the linked page), the latter of which gives undead a Constitution score.

[Alex12]

The Paragon class doesn't even work. Regenration on Undead? Uh, yeah. Then again it's dandwiki.

Let's see:
Undead are not subject to nonlethal damage, giving one Regeneration makes it flat out immune to damage. Gaseous Form at will on top of that is just gravy on top of the cheesecake.
Blood Pool is broken.
Hypnotic Gaze seems like it's just flat out broken as well.
Full casting.

What is this, cheesecake hidden inside a mound of feta cubes and then covered with molten cheddar and topped with a kobold ornament carved out of brie?

Actually, while I agree with you for much of this, the page gave a pair of subtypes (Dark Minded and Unliving) that take away many of the vampire immunities.
Like, they have Con scores and aren't immune to nonlethal damage.

[Komatik]

Actually, while I agree with you for much of this, the page gave a pair of subtypes (Dark Minded and Unliving) that take away many of the vampire immunities.
Like, they have Con scores and aren't immune to nonlethal damage.

It's still made of cheese, it just doesn't stink now :P

[Alex12]

It's still made of cheese, it just doesn't stink now :P

It's also getting d6 HD.
But blood pool seems pretty impressive. And there doesn't seem to be any limit on the Create Spawn ability. Which is insane.

[Blackhawk748]

That Alternate Vampire Template (not the DandD wiki one) makes me happy. I CAN BE A VAMPIRE AND NOT SUCK (figuratively) AND NOT BE HORRIBLY BROKEN! OH HAPPY DAYS!!

[NeoPhoenix0]

after looking at both the dndwiki vampire and the other one, I have to say that the dndwiki paragon class is indeed more powerful I never really looked at it before. That other template is way too powerful to be a +2. Vampire spawn ability alone is horrible. Gaseous form, create spawn, ability scores, and a bunch of other things make that template cheesetastic at LA +2 even with the added weaknesses which really aren't that bad.

This thread has inspired me to make a much more toned down vampire template. I think i will make a LA +1/+2 template that follows my idea of a vampire gaining most of his power from his long life, ie class levels. Probably going to start from the ground up.

[Blackhawk748]

id say its at least a +3, but think, now you have to FEED that huge pyramid of vampire minions, and since they have to drain 5 Con every 3 days to remain fed, thats gonna be a lot of dead, well everything

[ArqArturo]

id say its at least a +3, but think, now you have to FEED that huge pyramid of vampire minions, and since they have to drain 5 Con every 3 days to remain fed, thats gonna be a lot of dead, well everything

Go to an unsavory town, get some slaves (plus people that owe money, and people that want 'glory and fame') and create a gladiatorial arena. Then, in the arena itself, drain some of the blood that drips down from the gladiator matches (via magic).

[Blackhawk748]

but i gotta get their con, not just the blood, and it is fairly specific. Also its drain, so you cant just have a couple dozen slaves that you regularly feed on as theyll eventually die

[NeoPhoenix0]

id say its at least a +3, but think, now you have to FEED that huge pyramid of vampire minions, and since they have to drain 5 Con every 3 days to remain fed, thats gonna be a lot of dead, well everything

Two things.
1) You don't have to kill to feed.
2) You just need to have proportionately larger feeding population.

Also regular spawn still use the old spawn template because he never created one. So 4HD or less you don't need to feed. 5HD or more you go out to the fields feeding on but not killing a different heard of animals each night.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always just ask your DM to drop the Level Adjustment entirely, and instead gain the Vampire's abilities over time as an extra. For instance, take the Savage Progressions and instead of gaining the abilities instead of a normal class, gain them in addition. It will take 8 levels, and if you become overly powerful (which I doubt) then you can nerf it as you go.

[J-H]

The half-vampire template from Libris Mortis appears reasonably balanced. It wouldn't be too hard to add "bloodline" style levels (see SRD/UA) as you level up to represent gaining additional vampire abilities. DM discretion, maybe make the abilities free if the vamp is playing a lower-tier class (vampire fighter = extra abilities, vampire wizard = not unless taking "level" in vampire).

[NeoPhoenix0]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290290) is my attempt to make a balanced vampire template. Any input about balance would be greatly appreciated. I plan on eventually adding feats to let people get features they really want from the old template to some degree.

That other template from this site is far to min/maxed for my tastes. Piling on negatives is no excuse to get ridiculous powers with low level adjustment.

[lordzya]

I would suggest a homebrewed variant, perhaps with racial feats that let it use blood magic to recover the lost caster levels. Necropolitian is more zombie than vampire so likely won't capture what your going for and 3.5 vampire is extremely weak. Plus, vampires as I've used them have had some variation between settings, so crafting one to fit your world is only logical. I wrote a LA 4 template that had scaling vampire weaknesses and powers based on how often the vampire fed and how much it used its powers, but it was specific to my setting so I haven't shared it online.