Wizard Necromancer optimization

[Postmodernist]

Hello, Playgrounders. I'm looking into making a character for a high level, all arcane specialist campaign, and I've decided on the challenge of Necromancer. I've perused the relevant handbooks, and am aware that Necromantic wizards are generally considered inferior to clerics, but I'm here for flavor. That said, necromancers suffer from a dearth of good PrC options, so I'm debating builds. I'd ask for your suggestions.

PrC Options:
Focused specialist- decent benefits, no real downsides.
Pale Master- thematically appropriate benefits, style points. Loses a caster level.
Olin Gisir- strong class, no major downsides, not super thematically appropriate.
I suspect I'm missing a few things here. The general strong mage options (fatespinner, archmage, etc.) are all on the table.

Build options:
I'm considering the Uttercold Assault build. It's a strong debuffer with decent damage output, but very feat intensive. My question is whether or not it's incompatible with the "undead army commander" options for Necromancer.

Suggestions and comments are appreciated.

[almightycoma]

I think focused specialist is unnecessary for a necromancer. its not that many extra spells and the number you do get can be duplicated with gear.
archmage is always a good idea there aren't that many builds that get negatively impacted by it. (and you get to call yourself an archmage which I think is an often over looked bonus)
As for commanding the legions of undead, that's a spells, tactics and gear thing not a feats thing. If you find your pool of controllable undead to shallow get the acf that replaces your familiar with an undead and slap the undead Lt. spell on him. then spell stitch a minion with animate dread warrior and your done.

[Roguenewb]

Has to be a Wizard? Can't get in on Dread Necromancer? Okay, Wizard 3/Master Specialiast 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 7. Simple, still comically powerful.

If you wanna go farther afield, Wizard 3/Cleric 1/master spec 1/Dweomerkeeper 10/Abjurant Champion 5 (or more master spec). Simple, easy, use supernatural spell to animate dead for free.

Wizard essentially optimizes itself. It's wizard. Don't lose caster levels, play nasty spells. If you hit Dweomerkeeper 10, start metamagicking the hell out of Enervation. Hoards of undead allies, and lasers of death to kill off strong foes.

[Gazzien]

I recently assembled a list of (including Pathfinder) ways to make Undead you create stronger; here's the list, in case you wanted to get in on the Army of Undead thing.

PATHFINDER
-Enhanced Undead (Wizard (Necromancer) Variant, level 1): +4 Enhancement STR, +4 Enhancement DEX, +2 HP/HD

3.5 STUFF
-Undead Mastery (Dread Necromancer, level 8): +4 Enhancement STR, +4 Enhancement DEX, +2 HP/HD
-Bolster Resistance (Feat): +4 turn resistance
-Corpsecrafter (Feat): +4 Enhancement STR, +2 HP/HD
-Deadly Chill (Feat): 1d6 Cold damage on natural attacks.
-Destruction Retribution (Feat): 1d6 + 1d6/2HD negative energy in 10' spread when killed
-Hardened Flesh (Feat): +2 Natural Armor
-Nimble Bones (Feat): +4 Initiative, +10' speed.
-Necromantic Presence (Feat): Aura, 60' of +4 Turn Resistance
-Necromantic Might (Feat): Necromantic Presence aura also gives +2 Enhancement to attack rolls, saves.
-Desecrate + Altar (Spell + Location): +2 HP/HD
-Black Sand (Item): 1d4 negative energy / round to things touching it.

DARK SUN (ROYAL ANIMATOR PRESTIGE)
-Unlife Mastery (Royal Animator 2): Undead you animate or create with necromancy spells have maximum HP.
-Desecrated Animation (Royal Animator 4): +1 HP/HD, +2 Turn Resistance, if created in a desecrated area
-Advanced Undead War Machine (Royal Animator 6): +1 HD / 2 ranks in Know(Warcraft), for free (don't pay, don't count to control cap), only applies to animal and vermin
-Undead Horde (Royal Animator 8): +2 HD / CL controlled with any necromancy spells. Stacks.
-Undead Horde (Royal Animator 10): +2 HD / CL controlled with any necromancy spells. Stacks.
-Hardened Body (Know (Religion) 4): XP 25 - +2 Natural Armor
-Nimble Body (Know (Religion) 4): XP 25 - +4 Initiative, +10' move speed
-Retributive Death (Know (Religion) 6): XP 100 - Deal 1d4 Negative Energy / HD in a 10' spread on death
-Pestilent Body (Know (Religion) 8): XP 125 - Carries /Filth Fever/ (disease), transmissible with physical contact, natural attack, or touch attack.
-Toughened Body (Know (Religion) 8): XP 75 - +4 Enhancement STR, +2 HP/HD
-Battleborn (Know (Religion) 10): XP 250 - Bonus feat; INT - can only get battle feats, and INT-score can get any feat. Skill points = 4+INT modifier / HD, *4 at first HD

[Postmodernist]

Great suggestions! Probably going to have to stay wizard, for thematic purposes.

Any feat selections I should pay absolute attention to? Spell selection seems easy for once, since Necromancy tends to pick itself for spells. Also, spellstitching: how do I do it? Most of the undead enhancement feats and stuff seem mediocre, except for spellstitched. How does one apply it?

[tadkins]

Isn't Wizard Necromancy more about debuffing and save-or-die spells, while Cleric Necromancy is about the army of the undead thing?

[Slipperychicken]

Scrolls of high-CL Animate Dead, and Animate Dread Warrior. The latter is awesome because it lets the target keep its spellcasting (although Int and Cha take a hit, probably still manageable with items at least, while Wis-based casters won't lose much effectiveness), which is perfect for reanimating spellcaster-bosses.

[FyreByrd]

Has to be a Wizard? Can't get in on Dread Necromancer?

.


Great suggestions! Probably going to have to stay wizard, for thematic purposes.



Bear in mind you do not have to be Wizard (abjuration) 17 to be the Abjuration focused member of the Cabal. For instance, the Necromancy specialist could well be a Dread Necromancer



You totally should go Dread Necromancer....what am I not supposed to be here....


You didn't see me :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

If you're a high level, no reason to not be a Wizard. Dread Necromancer is fine, but you miss out on the spellcasting tricks.

Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Deathbound) and a Rod of Undead Mastery gives you 6x CL control.

If you don't mind the Caster Level hit, you can take Soul Eater for when you Shapechange (or simply Gate one in and Bind it to your service) into a high attack form. That way you can get your Wight army started. Combine with a Death Devotion, and you're golden (a couple of full attack from a buffed Kraken can pretty much instantly kill anything and turn it into a Wight).

Ask your DM about the variant Undead in Libris Mortis; particularly if you're raising Dragons. Taking a Zombie Dragon, you can take "Fast" Zombies (I think they're called), which allows them to act normally within the action economy. Pretty sweet, if I'm honest.

[Postmodernist]

You totally should go Dread Necromancer....what am I not supposed to be here....


You didn't see me :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I'm glad you stopped by!

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

[Giegue]

Despite popular belief, wizards are not poor undead masters. They just blossom later then clerics and their methods of undead army making are less straightforward. Unlike the cleric, you can't just rebuke undead into your service. In making your undead army, you have to get trickey, though such trickery can pay off. First of all, I HIGHLY recomend the Pale Master PrC. The ability to use animate dead free of GP cost is excelent, and more importantly, you get an undead cohort, which can be an undead cleric. I also recomend taking the undead leadership feat, which will allow you to pull the same spawning tricks as a cleric..

Anyway, in addition to this, I recomend the uttercold assult feat line, it's just that good. In addition, if you have at least 12 wisdom, take arcane disciple(Undeath) to get desecrate. you will need it. Also, you will take the domain granted power ACF. This lets you trade your level 5 bonus feat for a cleric domain power of your choice. You WILL choose the granted power of the deathbound domain. This can also be done via the planar touchstone feat, but since uttercold assult is a wise thing to do, the ACF is the superior option since it frees up a feat slot.

anyway, with acssess to the deathbound domain power and desecrate via arcane disciple, you can now animate dead just as good as a cleric. In additon to this, you should really, really, really look into spellstitching. Spellstitching is the one thing that wizards can do that clerics really can't in necromancy, and you should spellstitch some of your minions. The spell to spellstitch? Animate Dread Warrior. With just a single undead spellstitched with this you get infinent minions, though at a slow pace. spellstitch a few more minions with it and you have several army-making undead.

Anyway, there are plenty of undead army building tricks for wizards, so if you want more just ask. Hope this all helped.

[Waker]

I'll go out and make an odd suggestion for a necromancer.
Incarnate 2/Necromancer 3/Soulcaster 10
Fairly straightforward. You can either choose to be an Evil Incarnate or if non-evil, you can snag the Necrocarnum feat. The big purpose is to shape Necrocarnum Circlet and shape it to your crown, allowing you to make Necrocarnum Zombies. There is no real cost to use the ability except for the body required. As soon as the zombie is killed, you just use an action to make another one.
You lose a little bit of casting on your Wizard side, but Arcane Investment and access to all the melds helps make up for it. Midnight Metamagic is handy for pumping up your spells.

[Darth Stabber]

I've said this in another thread, but it bears repeating in this one:

You don't have to do that much necromancy to fulfill the archetypical role of necromancer. I've played a conjurer (human wizard{conjurer}6/loremaster10/archmage4) that the other players in the game thought was a necromancer because I used the crap out of enervation and cast animate dead a few times. A zombie dragon mount goes a long way thematically. I had about 6 necromancy spells in my blessed book (Ray of enfeeblement, animate dead, shivering touch, spectral hand, ray of exhaustion, and command undead) and the book was very near full, so the matter was purely one of perception. Most of my spells were focused on tem support, so they ended up being more subtle, so the big obvious zombie dragon and metamagic'd enervations were what got noticed. I suppose that thesis spell (enervation) was also a factor in this misunderstanding, but you would think that abrupt jaunt would be sufficient evidence to the contrary (abrupt jaunt is awesome). Animate dead was very rarely used (like maybe 5 times total, and once was simply to complicate raise dead attempts), but you only need one or two undead minions to get the point across. Other than a thesis spell the closest thing I had to specialiation was a simple non-banning. The power of tier one is that you can do anything, but you are amazing at what you specialize in.

The same is true of cleric, any non-good cleric can do it, so you have to ask yourself if you are going to be so dedicated to it, and use so much of it as to need the benefits of the specialization. You can specialize in something else and still have an undead army to inspire fear in the hearts of the masses.

[Postmodernist]

Excellent responses, all greatly appreciated. While I know Abrupt Jaunt is totally awesome, the conjurer role will likely be taken in this game.

Question: Would it be worth considering Dread Necromancer for 8 or so levels, then going Fiendblooded for 9 levels? It's simple, more thematically coherent, though probably somewhat less powerful. Other suggestions? I want the concept of the character to come first, and power (while always a consideration) and build to come next.

[Darth Stabber]

Excellent responses, all greatly appreciated. While I know Abrupt Jaunt is totally awesome, the conjurer role will likely be taken in this game.

Question: Would it be worth considering Dread Necromancer for 8 or so levels, then going Fiendblooded for 9 levels? It's simple, more thematically coherent, though probably somewhat less powerful. Other suggestions? I want the concept of the character to come first, and power (while always a consideration) and build to come next.

Dread Necromancer is fun on a bun. It may not be as powerful, but there are all sorts of neat little abilities. I recommend it highly, especially for those looking at avoiding the perils of T1. I haven't read fiendblooded in a while (and am away from my books at the moment), but as memory serves I think that it's not a bad choice. DN is okay class to take to 20 (though you are obviously better off PRCing), as it gives you lots of interesting benefits. If you take the class you should either take Tomb Tainted Soul or be a necropolitan.

[Karnith]

Question: Would it be worth considering Dread Necromancer for 8 or so levels, then going Fiendblooded for 9 levels? It's simple, more thematically coherent, though probably somewhat less powerful. Other suggestions? I want the concept of the character to come first, and power (while always a consideration) and build to come next.
Something to bear in mind about the level 8 break-off point as a Dread Necromancer: the class's Undead Mastery ability is keyed off of a Dread Necromancer's class level, not caster level, so you'll miss out on improving it if you PrC out.

[Postmodernist]

Necropolitan has been approved, and I think Giegue's words have convinced me to go straight specialist. I like DN, and consider it one of the most evenly balanced classes in the game, but it'd be more appropriate to play from 1st level onward.

Now the debate between Master Specialist and Pale Master... or both.

[Darth Stabber]

Necropolitan has been approved, and I think Giegue's words have convinced me to go straight specialist. I like DN, and consider it one of the most evenly balanced classes in the game, but it'd be more appropriate to play from 1st level onward.

Now the debate between Master Specialist and Pale Master... or both.

The answer depends on a number of factors

1) is the bonus feat for wizard5 worth more than however much master specialist you will be getting?

2) would you have taken the prerequisites for master specialist were it not for master specialist?

3) if you wouldn't have had taken those feats, are they good enough anyway.

4) are the effects of the higher levels of master specialist worth more than you could get from another prc (the answer is usually no)

5) assuming you finish master specialist (rarely done in PO) you will still have several levels to fill (since it is an early PRC). What are you going to do with those open levels.


Ultimately I feel that master specialist can be worth it for a few levels (depending on what your specialty is), but other PRCs emit a siren's call of power that ms has a very hard time competing with. The first few levels of master necromancer are ultimately (in my opinion) not worth the loss of the wiz5 bonus feat. Master conjurer is, and to a lesser extent transmuter.

With all that being said, my general opinion of wizard necromancers is that you are generally better off focusing on another school (or going elven generalist), and just using some necromancy. My general taste in spells tends to bring a few necrospells, but with conjurer and trnsmuter my specialist slot is effectively just another spellslot (since both schools have spells I would be happy to prep into a regular slot at every level), where as with necromancer I find myself prepping spells I normally wouldn't, just to fill the specialist slot, applying extra metamagic to fit. I can see the fluff reasons why you would want to be a specialist necromancer, but I tend to view fluff as mutable, and see meaning as use, and these views are not universal. Necromancy is a school where "just a little dab'll do ya" holds true.

[Postmodernist]

1) is the bonus feat for wizard5 worth more than however much master specialist you will be getting?

2) would you have taken the prerequisites for master specialist were it not for master specialist?

3) if you wouldn't have had taken those feats, are they good enough anyway.

4) are the effects of the higher levels of master specialist worth more than you could get from another prc (the answer is usually no)

5) assuming you finish master specialist (rarely done in PO) you will still have several levels to fill (since it is an early PRC). What are you going to do with those open levels.

1) It balances out, but the minor bonuses make up for it.
2) Yes, Spell Focus is pretty useful for a Necro, and they pick up Greater Spell Focus and Skill Focus: Spelllcraft for free.
3) See above.
4) This is debatable. PrCs for Necromancers are mediocre, generalist type mage classes are probably more powerful here.
5) This is a higher level campaign, so it could be done. I suspect something like Archmage. Arcane Reach is basically a permanent Spectral Hand, and Necromancy has a lot of touch spells...

[Darth Stabber]

PrCs for Necromancers are mediocre, generalist type mage classes are probably more powerful here.

There are several generalist prcs that are just fine for necromancers (plus pale master isn't bad). Loremaster is arguably better than the higher levels of master specialist, archmage is a near universal consideration (though it really doesn't compete with MS, and you are already considering it), Iot7FV is fine for necromancers (though it is primarily an abjurer prc, but almost no one plays abjurer), incantrix's metamagic cheese gets extra cheesy when applied to enervation, and many so on and so forth. Not every build decision should be decided by "what is the most necromancyish choice", remember that you only gave up to schools of magic, not all of them.

[Postmodernist]

Can a Pale Master's assorted touch attack abilities be channeled through an Archmage's Arcane Reach?

[Giegue]

Not sure, but you will want to go Pale Master over master specalist for one reason. You need your level 5 bonus feat. Not for the feat, but for an ACF. The main reason why clerics are better with animate dead then wizards is the combination of desecrate + the deathbound domain power along with animate dead. If you get to 5 wizard, you can use the domain granted power ACF to trade your 5th level bonus feat for a cleric domain power of your choice. Chose the deathbound domain. Arcane Disciple(Undeath) gets you desecrate if you have at least 12 wisdom. It may be 1/day, but thats all you need since the combo of desecrate + deathbound domain power only works if you cast animate dead once with it. By trading the bonus feat for the deathbound domain power you are now JUST AS GOOD as a cleric when it comes to using the spell animate dead provided you have arcane disciple(Undeath) and at least 12 wisdom(You ideally want 13, though, to get animate dead as a level 3 spell)

So I say forget master specalist and go wizard 5, the deathbound domain power is just THAT GOOD.

Also, if your DM allows third party domains, consider going wizard 10/some PrC(s) X. Why? Because of the Necromancy domain from the dragonlance campaign setting. You know what the domain power for that domain is? Rebuke undead as an evil cleric. Now you can rebuke. In fact, if you want to you could switch which order you take the two domain powers in if you want rebuking early and the deathbound domain power for higher level animating later. The important thing is to get both rebuking and the deathbound domain power if you go this route. You would not be going Pale Master, but that is not that big an issue since Pale Master is more of a flavorfull class with nice powers rather then a must have for your build.

[Vaz]

Not too sure you do. Domain Wizard has a specific set of Domains to choose from, not Cleric Domains, IIRC? You'd need Planar Touchstone; Catalogues of Enlightenment to benefit from that.

[Giegue]

I'm not talking about the domain wizard ACF. You are confusing one ACF with another. The ACF I am talking about is the domain granted power ACF, from complete champion. It can be taken at levels 5, 10 and 15 and allows you to gain a cleric domain power in place of the bonus feat you get that level.

[Waker]

If you manage to get Rebuke Undead from DN or a PrC, you might like Paragnostic Apostle because Holy Text progresses it and it can be further raised with the See Through The Veil ability. The class prerequisites are fairly easy.

[Acanous]

Just going to put this out there for the Pathfinder list:

Razmiran Priest (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest)
Sorceror Archetype
gives you False Focus which is Eschew Materials, but for up to 100 GP.
There's Animate Dead, Lesser which comes online sooner and lets you raise *A* zombie or skeleton.

So Sorcerors can get free undead, and early. That's not huge, but comes online when it matters.
At lv 9, you get access to False Channel, you can start stockpiling scrolls of say, Create Undead. You pay for the scroll *Once* and never have to pay the material cost again.

(RP Bonus: Take Scribe Scroll. Borrow a scroll with an expensive material component, and use False Channel to cast it into a second scroll. Keep Scroll #2, return Scroll #1. You just got a spell with an expensive material component for half the cost of a scroll with *No* material component. You *Never* have to pay for obsidian again.)

Part Two:
At lv 10, go into...
Cyphermage (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/cyphermage)
The first Cypher Lore you want is going to be:
Enhance Scroll (Su): As a swift action, a cyphermage can cause any scroll spell he reads to function using his caster level rather than the scroll’s caster level. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/3 his cyphermage level (minimum 1).

So now that Scroll of Create Undead uses YOUR caster level instead of the minimum, once a day. But wait, there's more!
The feat Cypher Magic, which is a Prerequisite for Cypher Mage, states that when you cast from a scroll, you get to cast at +1 CL from the scroll's CL. The Scroll's CL is YOUR CL. So you get better minions, faster.

The second you'll want is probably Swift Scroll, followed by Defensive Scrollcaster, Focused Scroll, Insightful Scroll, and Extend Scroll.

Be a Human, Elf, or Half-Elf. Grab the Arcane Bloodline. (It comes with a Familiar. I recommend the Winter Hare [Reign of Winter Player's Guide] for +4 Initiative.) Put Paragon Surge on your spell list. You can now have any spell you please.

Really, this will allow you to do pretty much anything you friggin' want, whenever you want. You prepare like a Wizard in that you have a bunch of scrolls (In a handy Haversack!) and cast like a Sorceror, while completely ignoring material component costs, and keeping INT as your casting stat instead of CHA. If you ever need something on the fly, you Paragon Surge for it. You get spell access later than wizards, but because you can cast from the Cleric list, it actually evens out. No downside!
Best of all? This costs you a grand total of 2 feats. Cypher Magic and Scribe Scroll. You were going to pick up Scribe Scroll anyhow.

[Darth Stabber]

Can a Pale Master's assorted touch attack abilities be channeled through an Archmage's Arcane Reach?

No it cannot. Arcane Reach states that it extends the range of spells. It explicitly states spells, nothing touching on class abilities.


Not sure, but you will want to go Pale Master over master specalist for one reason. You need your level 5 bonus feat. Not for the feat, but for an ACF. The main reason why clerics are better with animate dead then wizards is the combination of desecrate + the deathbound domain power along with animate dead. If you get to 5 wizard, you can use the domain granted power ACF to trade your 5th level bonus feat for a cleric domain power of your choice. Chose the deathbound domain. Arcane Disciple(Undeath) gets you desecrate if you have at least 12 wisdom. It may be 1/day, but thats all you need since the combo of desecrate + deathbound domain power only works if you cast animate dead once with it. By trading the bonus feat for the deathbound domain power you are now JUST AS GOOD as a cleric when it comes to using the spell animate dead provided you have arcane disciple(Undeath) and at least 12 wisdom(You ideally want 13, though, to get animate dead as a level 3 spell)

So I say forget master specalist and go wizard 5, the deathbound domain power is just THAT GOOD.

Also, if your DM allows third party domains, consider going wizard 10/some PrC(s) X. Why? Because of the Necromancy domain from the dragonlance campaign setting. You know what the domain power for that domain is? Rebuke undead as an evil cleric. Now you can rebuke. In fact, if you want to you could switch which order you take the two domain powers in if you want rebuking early and the deathbound domain power for higher level animating later. The important thing is to get both rebuking and the deathbound domain power if you go this route. You would not be going Pale Master, but that is not that big an issue since Pale Master is more of a flavorfull class with nice powers rather then a must have for your build.

Even with all of that stuff added a wizard necromancer won't exceed the abilities of a cleric minion necromancer, though it does get closer. Again I state, probably still futilely, that maxing out your undead raising power as a wizard is probably not the best expenditure of build resources, at least not as a PC (for several reasons, time spent on your turn, negative social consequences, narrow corridors you must traverse, other travel related issues, ect.). A couple big bruisers and a mount are going to be all you really need and can use 85% of the time. Any other undead are just going to be a queue in case a minion is destroyed making you more of a pokemon master than wizard, or are going to be useless cannon fodder. Wizard necromancy is much better at debuffs and kills than it's clerical equivalent and focusing on that will be far more profitable in the long run than building a massive army of the damned. Remember that even if you are a specialist you still have 5-6 other schools worth of effects to draw from, and if you don't use them to their best, you may as well be a dread necromancer, who can at least spontcast 95% of usable necromancy (95% if you include advanced learning), and has actual class features, including a less useless familiar.

[Postmodernist]

So, breakdown:

Pale Master
Pros:
Thematically cool/fluff appropriate
Interesting array of abilities (though they are not strictly superior to spellcasting)
Cool Undead follower
Good army building
Awesome immunities
Cons:
Loses a caster level
Requires dedication of a subpar feat, invites/requires AFCs and undead boosting feats.

Focused Specialist
Pros:
Free feats for Archmage, spell focus benefits necromancy
Early entry
Bonus spells
Moderately beneficial esoterica
Frees up Uttercold Assault options
No lost caster level
Cons:
Less thematically tight
Less able to make tons of undead

I'm thinking MS into Archmage. Pale Master is too... obsessive for my taste, and I think I envision this character as someone who sees necromancy as a means to an end, rather than something obsessive. Still, those immunities (disease, nonlethal damage, stunning poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores) are really strong. I don't want to go too high-op cheesy, anyway, so stuff like Incantrix is probably right out. It's a team of high level wizards which, as someone said earlier, optimizes itself.

Last question: Is Necropolitan worth bothering with? The benefits are pretty strong, but it obviates a l

[Darth Stabber]

Necropolitan is well worth bothering with. Undead typing has numerous advantages, and manageable disadvantages. You can shaft CON, since it's going away, and still end up with more HP than most wizards. The big downside is Fort saves, but as a wizard you were unlikely to make them in the first place. You could take the feat "Martial Study" to pick up the maneuver "mind over body", which lets you replace a fort save with a concentration check once per encounter, and that covers that weakness faily well whether you are living or unliving. You can take it at level 12 if you really want/need it. You have some turn resistance so clerics won't completely own you (and that's actually a small risk given the much more common threats to which you are now immune).

[Postmodernist]

Now that you mention it, Pale Master gets +4 to Fort.

[Darth Stabber]

Now that you mention it, Pale Master gets +4 to Fort.

You are better off spending a feat on martial study than concerning yourself with more pale master.

[Postmodernist]

Hmm... so what's the feat selection look like? Not including anything like human bonus feats, etc. at the moment, and ignoring the bonus Skill Focus: Spellcraft and GSF from MS, as well as any potential wizard bonus feats.

1: Spell Focus: Necromancy
3: Energy Substitution: Cold
6: Lord of the Uttercold
9: Fell Animate
12: Arcane Thesis: Enervation
15:Spell Focus: Any other school (for Archmage)

What am I missing?

EDIT: Necropolitan pretty thoroughly obviates things like Tomb Tainted soul.

[Darth Stabber]

1) another metamagic feat to go with enervation - you have thesis spell, and fell animate isn't the best thing to tack on to it. Empower, maximize, intensify, quicken, and split ray all work very well with enervation. Add a slaymate to your undead hordes, and keep it in a papoose, and you can get another -1 metamagic reducer at no feat cost, that's a free empower at least.

2) fell drain - this does not go with the above suggestion, and is infact a possible replacement for thesis spell. For +2 spell level you add a negative level to the affected with any damage spell. Put it on kelgore's gravemist and you have bad area to stand in, handing out negative levels every round to those inside it . Apply it to cloud of knives and you can hand out a negative level every turn with a swift action. Applying it to magic missile is one of the better 3rd level spells out there. Adding to anything it could apply to is a great way to get some peanut butter in your chocolate. This is probably my favorite metamagic feat ever, and it takes blastomancy into new levels of efficacy if used intelligently. Wightpocalypses will occur spontaneously in your wake.

3) summon elemental - lets you summon all the crappy weak elementals you could wnt for free! More commonly known as "caster's trapfinding"

4) black lore of moil - lets you pay some money for extra negative energy damage on spells (also healing your hordes while you're at it). the price is reasonable, but the fact that is also costs a feat is annoying.

5) lifesense - not super powerful, but it makes all living creatures give off illumination that only you can see. Creepy and fun all wrapped up in one.

6) winter's blast - free cold damage for situations not quite worth a spell.

7) martial study(mind over matter) - the aforementioned save replacer.

8) corpse crafter - +4str and +2hp/die is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you don't have to do anything but have the feat.

[Giegue]

If your going human, I still suggest that you use your human bonus feat on Arcane Disciple(Undeath) if you have at least 12-13 wisdom. If you don't, then you don't need to go human. Either way, you will go at least 10 wizard if dragonlance necromancer domain is available. If your going human for arcane disciple then I recomend taking the deathbound domain power in place of your level 5 bonus feat and the dragonlance necromancer domain rebuke undead in place of your level 10 bonus feat. If your not going human/using arcane disciple then feel free to take the dragonlance necromancer domain's rebuke undead at level five and the deathbound domain power at level 10, however.

Either way, really try to get the dragonlance necromancer domain's rebuke undead so you can control all those wights you'll be making with enervation. Speaking of enervation, some other feats you may consider if you are not set on archmage and are ok with wizard 20 would include empower spell, maximize spell and split ray. All those feats work wonders with enervation and if your not dead-set on archmage then at the least empower and split ray are worth picking up.

[kme]

Fell Drain, while nice, can only apply one negative level per enemy per spell.

I would also advise against arcane thesis. It's a bad feat from both balance and gameplay perspectives. Take metamagic school focus instead.

As for other metamagic feats, your top priority is probably split ray. Also worth considering are ocular spell, reach spell (ask to retrain if going AM), chain spell, empower and of course quicken.

[Postmodernist]

Good suggestions, all. This build is going to eat feats like crazy, I can already tell.

Itemization: Rod of Undead Mastery and maybe Black Sand so as to have instant desecration. I'm assuming otherwise general wizard equipment applies here.

[Darth Stabber]

Fell Drain, while nice, can only apply one negative level per enemy per spell.

FALSE! It applies one negative level each time the spell deals damage. While stacking multiple negative level on one target with a single magic missile is debatable (and I as GM wouldn't allow it), it would let you spread negative levels to multiple targets, and it would make any spell that deals damage over time into a level draining machine.

[Postmodernist]

So, in my eternal quest to answer this question, I stumbled across the Death Master PrC. Thoughts?

[kme]

Want to add this bit concerning the wizard vs cleric discussion in terms of undead minions. I wouldn't readily agree that cleric is better. In fact, command undead spell is arguably better then rebuking and allows you to control basically an infinite amount of unintelligent undead (read: those created with animate dead).

Also, there is another aspect of necromancy that is often overlooked and is worth mentioning, and that is dealing with intelligent undead. This will depend on your DM of course, but those intelligent undead should be susceptible to manipulation and coercion, especially if you are undead yourself. Be a true necromancer, who is followed out of fear, respect, necessity or even convenience. Those 4 HD per level are just a tool, not a method :smallamused:.

In this regard, Pale Master offers those tasty immunities that are essential when dealing with potentially uncooperative undead. Although you can get some of those with a moderate esoterica at least for a short while.



FALSE! It applies one negative level each time the spell deals damage. While stacking multiple negative level on one target with a single magic missile is debatable (and I as GM wouldn't allow it), it would let you spread negative levels to multiple targets, and it would make any spell that deals damage over time into a level draining machine.
I agree that you can spread the damage over multiple targets, but I don't agree with the rest of your interpretation.
The feat says:
You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level.
Notice there is no whenever or every time, it just says "that is dealt damage".

That's a condition basically, not a trigger.

Was that creature dealt damage by the spell? If yes it fulfills the condition.
You can ask this question an infinite amount of times but you can only apply one negative level. It doesn't matter if the creature takes damage in next round as well, it's still in the same position of having taken damage.

It also makes sense balance wise and if you interpret it the other way, there is no excuse for magic missile, scorching ray, ball lightning etc. to be special cases. You have to be consistent.

[Postmodernist]

I THINK I HAVE IT!

Yes, it's ridiculous, but I think this might be the best method:

Wizard (Necomancer specialist) 3/Master Specialist 3/Pale Master 10/Archmage 1

Picks up GSF and Skill focus: Spellcraft (prereq for Archmage) for free, more than overcoming the loss of the level 5 feat. Gets all the goodies of Pale Master. Archmage arcana will probably be Arcane Reach, maybe Elemental Mastery for Uttercold shenanigans. Burns feats on Spell Focus (necessary anyway) and Skill Focus Knowledge: Religion. No major losses I can identify, other than the caster level loss from Pale Master. Esoterica from MS are nice but minor or can be replicated, and Necropolitan/Pale Master immunities obviate the moderate school benefit.

Is this too ridiculous, or does it work? Thoughts?

EDIT: Wait, Undead type grants pretty much ALL the same immunity benefits as Pale Master, right? Gaaaah!

[Vaz]

Pale Master is a two level dip for component-less Animate Dead. How much do you need your 9th level spells? With Animate Dread Warrior, not much personally, although they can be useful, however dropping another level for a Dread Necromancer gives you free touch healing for undead. Drop a level to have your pokemon start every encounter at full health.

[Darth Stabber]

I agree that you can spread the damage over multiple targets, but I don't agree with the rest of your interpretation.
The feat says:
Notice there is no whenever or every time, it just says "that is dealt damage".

That's a condition basically, not a trigger.

Was that creature dealt damage by the spell? If yes it fulfills the condition.
You can ask this question an infinite amount of times but you can only apply one negative level. It doesn't matter if the creature takes damage in next round as well, it's still in the same position of having taken damage.

It also makes sense balance wise and if you interpret it the other way, there is no excuse for magic missile, scorching ray, ball lightning etc. to be special cases. You have to be consistent.

Fell drain Kelgore's gravemist
round 1: it deals damage to each creature in the area, and therefore each damaged creature gains a negative level

round 2: it deals damage to each creature in the area, and therefore each damaged creature gains a negative level

repeat for duration.

The magic missle version deals damage once (even if all the missiles focus fire on a single point). There is no logical inconsistency on there.

[kme]

Fell drain Kelgore's gravemist
round 1: it deals damage to each creature in the area, and therefore each damaged creature gains a negative level

round 2: it deals damage to each creature in the area, and therefore each damaged creature gains a negative level

repeat for duration.
I understand your viewpoint, I never said I didn't and I already presented you my reasoning of why I disagree with it.

The magic missle version deals damage once (even if all the missiles focus fire on a single point). There is no logical inconsistency on there. Magic missile doesn't deal damage once, this simply cannot be denied. It is even more evident with scorching ray which requires separate attack rolls. There is no indication in description of fell drain or rules in general that damage instances need to happen in separate rounds in order to qualify as separate.

[Postmodernist]

What about (this is going to look ridiculous, I admit):

Wiz (Nec.) 5/MS 3/Shadow Adept 1/Fatespinner 4/Archmage 4?

Free GFS and Skill Focus from MS, 3 free Shadow Weave feats from Shadow Adept, spin abilities from Fatespinner to max DCs, Archmage goodies.

Feat requirements: Spell Focus, Shadow Weave Magic.

To boot, it's helping some character concept things come online. Acceptable? Is the ACF worth swapping the 5th level feat for?