Alternative Desert Wind energy types

[N. Jolly]

Okay, I really like a lot of Desert Wind maneuvers, but I know that the fire type damage is really holding it back from being at max potential. So I was wondering what would you rate each energy type for Desert Wind (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Acid, Sonic, Force) for how viable the school would remain with that new type.

Also, do you think that Desert Wind with Force damage would be over powered, or would it be an okay switch?

[Norin]

If you go for the "better" energy types, an idea is nerfing the damage dice like you see in arcane spells.

Something like this:
If a manouver does xd8 fire damage, it would do xd6 if acid or sonic, and xd4 if force.

Just switching directly for sonic or force would really bring along a few balance issues i think.

That's what i would consider if the type switch was brought into my group as a house rule.

[Flickerdart]

Cold is about on par with Fire in terms of resistances. Electricity is slightly less common. Acid and Sonic are less common still and also nicely mess up objects. Force is frankly kind of ridiculous.

[Komatik]

In terms of not being resisted, or?

What are all the benefits of force damage?

[CyMage]

A bit off topic, but every now and again I want to play a 'female' warforged swordsage with Desert Wind refluffed to electricity. Name her Alita or Gunnm. <_<

[CRtwenty]

In terms of not being resisted, or?

What are all the benefits of force damage?

It's a lot harder to defend against and hits a lot of things that are immune to regular forms of damage.

[TuggyNE]

In terms of not being resisted, or?

What are all the benefits of force damage?

It's very difficult to be immune or resistant to*, and it bypasses incorporeal miss chance/ethereality. That's basically it.

*High-level spells and certain rare creatures like epic force dragons.

[Komatik]

It's very difficult to be immune or resistant to*, and it bypasses incorporeal miss chance/ethereality. That's basically it.

*High-level spells and certain rare creatures like epic force dragons.

That still strikes me as merely strong, not broken or especially ridiculous. A bit, but not very.

[Roguenewb]

That still strikes me as merely strong, not broken or especially ridiculous. A bit, but not very.

It's more like a high tier 3 power level. Fire helps make it a fairly middle of the road tier 3 class, but by turning it to force, you give them a solid bump up in power. If your have a swordsage competing with wizards and clerics in the party, maybe let him force it up. If that same character is competing with rogues and warmages, let it stay fire.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would apply the psionic energy types to desert wind, with some extra's for new types

Fire does - 1d8 damage
Electricity - Bonus to hit / harder reflex saves vs metal armored targets
Cold - fort for half OR 1d8 damage if no save
Sonic - -1d4, ignores hardness
Acid - -1d4, deals half damage again on next round
Force - 1d3, force damage, ignore's miss chance.

[Vedhin]

Also, do you think that Desert Wind with Force damage would be over powered, or would it be an okay switch?

Force damage is a lie, cruelly started by WotC. Force is not an actual damage type, there are simply damage-dealing effects that are force effects, giving them the ability to hit incorporeal creatures and such.
The five energy types are: Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic.

Hope this helps.

[N. Jolly]

The main reason I ask if Force is too much is because basically every other school's bonus damage is untyped physical damage, which allows it to be reduced by damage reduction. Fire is easily the worst type for elemental damage.

So those who are against Force damage, what makes it too powerful? Aside from hitting incorporeals and such, does it really do that much more? That and hard to resist seems to be the only difference, so comparing it to the bonus dice of most other schools, it doesn't seem that overly powerful at all.

[Talya]

In core energy spells, Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid are all equally damaging. You wouldn't change the damage dice for any of them.

Sonic is usually a bump down in damage dice, because of the rarity of resistance/immunity. (It's also why 3.5 removed Sonic from the metamagic feat "Energy Substitution.")

Force is not an energy type.

[Uncle Pine]

I don't think that shifting Desert Wind from fire to force damage would be overpowered, if you drop the damage dice from d6 to d4. It certainly is an improvement, because force damage is resisted by just a few monsters (like the force dragon) and the new "Unrelenting Force" discipline would have maneuvers that deal only 1 less average damage than those from Desert Wind (d6 average result is 3.5, d4's is 2.5), but it wouldn't be that noticeable.
I think that what I just said is true for most Desert Wind's maneuvers and stances. However, there are a few notable exceptions:
- Burning Blade (1st lvl boost), Searing Blade (4th lvl boost) and Inferno Blade (7th lvl boost) add 1d6/2d6/3d6 +1/IL fire damage to every attack on a turn. At 20th level, that would become 60 extra force damage on a Swordsage 20 with a single weapon, 120 extra force damage with TWF. You don't want this to happen.
- Burning Brand (2nd lvl boost) increases reach and turns weapon damage into fire damage for a turn. Dealing full force damage on a Power Attack routine sounds horridly broken.
- Inferno Blast (9th lvl strike) deals 100 straight fire damage in 60-ft.-radius. While you would probably deal more than 100 damage on a full-attack routine, 100 AoE force damage would probably worry most BBEGs (especially those who love minions).

[Sutremaine]

For those, take the original flat damage and reduce it as appropriate. For example, the flat 60 on the 20th-level X Blade boost would be reduced from 60 (d6 equivalent) to 40 (d4 equivalent).

[N. Jolly]

Okay this thread really isn't about if force damage is an element, it's a type of damage, which is the issue.

And again, the type of damage that most other schools deal is physical, so it has DR to defend against.

Would sonic be a more fair alternative to force? Honestly the only reason I'm on the fence about sonic is because I fear making all of my strikes VERY loud, which goes against how I'd want to play a swordsage.

I know there'd be other complications, such as catching fire and such, while the other energy types (cold/acid/electric) seem like they'd make more sense for clinging damage and such.

I myself always thought of Sonic as just concussive energy, which would in a way be basically non magical force, but do you think that Desert Wind is balanced on being fire, or would any type of energy really work for it?

[Kane0]

Thematically speaking, electricity seems to work best in my mind. Just lower damage dice by a step (minimum d6), change cones to lines and you're pretty much gold.

[Waker]

Would sonic be a more fair alternative to force? Honestly the only reason I'm on the fence about sonic is because I fear making all of my strikes VERY loud, which goes against how I'd want to play a swordsage.

I myself always thought of Sonic as just concussive energy, which would in a way be basically non magical force, but do you think that Desert Wind is balanced on being fire, or would any type of energy really work for it?

You could fluff Sonic damage as less roaring thunder and more weapon vibrating to damage. Destructive harmonic resonance and all.

[Vedhin]

Would sonic be a more fair alternative to force? Honestly the only reason I'm on the fence about sonic is because I fear making all of my strikes VERY loud, which goes against how I'd want to play a swordsage.

I myself always thought of Sonic as just concussive energy, which would in a way be basically non magical force, but do you think that Desert Wind is balanced on being fire, or would any type of energy really work for it?

I think that any energy type would work, sonic would probably need to decrease one die size like others have said. And if you're doing sonic and worried about the noise, see if you can include some sort of "megaphone" effect in the fluff, where the sound is focused entirely on the target(s).

[tyckspoon]

I myself always thought of Sonic as just concussive energy, which would in a way be basically non magical force, but do you think that Desert Wind is balanced on being fire, or would any type of energy really work for it?

IMO most of the Desert Wind strikes are already balanced on being weak - they do less damage at worse saves than an equivalent spell does, and that's before considering any optimization applied to improving the spell (optimization that a Swordsage cannot use, because there is basically no existing method to modify a maneuver or even gain extra IL to compare to metamagics or CL buffing for casters.) Changing the damage type to straight up untyped irresistable damage would be perfectly fine, let alone just using one of the other standard energy types.

[TuggyNE]

Would sonic be a more fair alternative to force? Honestly the only reason I'm on the fence about sonic is because I fear making all of my strikes VERY loud, which goes against how I'd want to play a swordsage.

Sound doesn't have to be in the audible range to do damage, you know.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sound doesn't have to be in the audible range to do damage, you know.

See the Sapphire Dragon's breath weapon, for example.