Rogue: ranged sneak attack - how so?

[Harlot]

Hello clever people!

Quick question: I'm DM'ing a game in which the rogue runs around sneak-attacking people with his daggers, as any decent rogue should.

However, he claims that he can do so at a distance, throwing the daggers instead of stabbing.

I've always thought that sneak attacks were only possible if the opponent was either flatfooted or flanked, and furthermore thought that flanking required rogue + opponent + 'friendly flanker' to be enganged in melee?


Could anyone point me to the rules about this?

/Harlot

[juicycaboose]

A rogue may use sneak-attack at range on an opponent that has their dexterity bonus denied to them (i.e flatfooted), if the opponent is within 30ft of the rogue.

edit:


Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.


edit2: oops guess the BBcodes don't work like that, here's the link http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

[TuggyNE]

You're right that it's difficult or impossible to flank from range; instead, the more common approaches are to use Hide checks to deny Dex, grease/marbles to force flat-footedness, or (greater) blink/greater invisibility to deny Dex. Blink has the notable problem that it prevents sneak attack (because your own attacks have miss chance) unless you have Pierce Magical Concealment, Improved Precise Shot, or something similar.

[Gwendol]

You must (normally) be within 30' and typically hidden. If the enemy doesn't detect you, he's denied DEX to AC and so can be sneak attacked. Hiding after the shot is however difficult (see rules for sniping), especially at the distances we are talking about here.
Ranged sneak attack is what rogues do, or should do, when first starting out. They don't have the skills, gear or stamina to risk being attacked back in melee.

[Harlot]

Thanks for fast replies. It's the flanking that has me confused:

In this combat scenario (W: warrior, E: evil dude, R: Rogue) would the rogue be in a position to sneak attack the Evil dude?

o W o o o
o o E o o
o o o o o
o o o o o
o o o o R

Evil dude's not flatfooted, and not engaged in melee with the rogue.
(and for all of the cool feats: He's only level 4 :-P)

And how does this work with the usual penalties for shooting into melee? (OK, not shooting, but throwing ...)

[Daftendirekt]

You cannot flank at range.

[Roguenewb]

Ranged sneak attack is hard mode for sneak attack. The 30 foot thing means you are likely to get smacked, and you need a gimmick to knock them flat-footed. Flanking is the go-to, but ranged can happen.

[Gwendol]

In your example, unless the E is unaware of R (because R is successfully hiding, for example), R can't get sneak attack damage on a successful ranged hit. He will suffer the usual penalty for firing into melee unless he has Precise shot.

[Gargravarr]

Don't tell him to use a wand of Sniper's Shot and/or Guided Shot :D

[Harlot]

You cannot flank at range.



In your example, unless the E is unaware of R (because R is successfully hiding, for example), R can't get sneak attack damage on a successful ranged hit. He will suffer the usual penalty for firing into melee unless he has Precise shot.

Thank you: This is exactly the heart of the matter. The PC/Rogue has played situations like the one descibed above using flanking rules, i.e. referring to the position of the characters on the battle grid. Whether the opponents were flatfooted or not has never been discussed. The PC is more experienced than I am, so I believed him when he stated that 'rogues can do that.'

Appearently he can't. Flanking is melee only, and sneak attack at range is really only possible against flatfooted opponents. Thank you for swift response and accurate replies.

/Harlot

[cerin616]

note that he also does not gain any bonus if two other people are flanking the target. To gain sneak attack from flanking, you must be one of the flankers.

And there are feats he can take (deadeye shot?) to gain sneak attack at range as long as an ally is attacking the target.

[dysprosium]

9th level whisperkife (prestige class from Races of the Wild) can flank from a range 10 ft

[XionUnborn01]

Appearently he can't. Flanking is melee only, and sneak attack at range is really only possible against flatfooted opponents. Thank you for swift response and accurate replies.

Just to clarify, it's not only flatfooted opponents, but any time they're denied DEX to AC. Wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Also, don't forget to apply the -4 attack penalty unless said rogue has Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#preciseShot) as a feat.

The ranged sneak attack stinks for emulating a deadly sniper. Sort of a shame really.

[Psyren]

Blink has the notable problem that it prevents sneak attack (because your own attacks have miss chance) unless you have Pierce Magical Concealment, Improved Precise Shot, or something similar.

The common solution to Blink is Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) arrows, which save you a feat.

[Karoht]

Lenses of Fogcutting + Smokesticks or any fog spell work wonders.
You can see through the smoke/fog, they (probably) can't see you. Sneak Attack away.

[Harlot]

Just to clarify, it's not only flatfooted opponents, but any time they're denied DEX to AC. Wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

Thanks for clarifying this even further.

And thanks to the rest of you for your suggestions as to how the rogue would be able to make ranged sneak attacks, now within the limits set by RAW.
Some of it will have to wait quite a few levels, obviously, but it is neat to know.

I just LUUVE this Forum!

/Harlot

[Melcar]

I have allowed the ranged rogue in my campaign to be able to flank at range. He has the feat that fit the profile: Point Blank, weapon focus and precise shot.

To me it seems wierd, that if you are unable to protect you back in melee then surely you are even worse at protecting your back from a ranged attack.

I have not found this to be "broken" on create unbalance because of this.

[elonin]

I've had horrible luck with the DM's i've played with ruling that cover only exists if he wants to ambush the party. I might be exaggerating that a little but 9/10 times when asking the dm their reply is "no useful cover".

If you are using blink I'd use a crystal of true death weapon crystal. the medium size crystal grants +1d6 vs undead and ghost touch which removes the miss chance associated with blink.

Isn't there a feat under the adaptable flanker line that could work to give a bit of range for flank? Also, if there is a ranger in the party talk him into getting the acf which causes any enemy that he hits to be flat footed (works from range also) but gives up his animal companion. Also, if you have other members flanking something it counts as flanked for you as well.

[TuggyNE]

ghost touch which removes the miss chance associated with blink

It does? Ghost touch, as far as I know, only helps with incorporeality; going ethereal is one step beyond that, and ghost touch is unable to allow someone on the Ethereal Plane to attack someone on the Material.

[Harlot]

I have allowed the ranged rogue in my campaign to be able to flank at range. He has the feat that fit the profile: Point Blank, weapon focus and precise shot.

To me it seems wierd, that if you are unable to protect you back in melee then surely you are even worse at protecting your back from a ranged attack.

I have not found this to be "broken" on create unbalance because of this.
Thanks for this, I agree with your way of thinking, and this seems fair.
I'll allow for the same when he has the feats, which he hasn't yet.

[Gwendol]

It's a good, sensible rule.

[Tarqiup Inua]

There was actually feat somewhere that allowed you to ready an attack with ranged weapon (crossbow only?) and execute it as your ally struck target.

You then got an SA damage to your ranged attack.

Point blank shot may seem weak, but it has utility and is prerequisite for other, better feats. As for me, I wouldn't rule what you do, but hey - that might be why are you the DM :P

While I am at it, crosbow sniper might be another feat your player might like. DEXX bonus to crossbow damage, ranged sneak attacks up to 60ft. ...

[Crake]

And there are feats he can take (deadeye shot?) to gain sneak attack at range as long as an ally is attacking the target.


There was actually feat somewhere that allowed you to ready an attack with ranged weapon (crossbow only?) and execute it as your ally struck target.

You then got an SA damage to your ranged attack.

Point blank shot may seem weak, but it has utility and is prerequisite for other, better feats. As for me, I wouldn't rule what you do, but hey - that might be why are you the DM :P

While I am at it, crosbow sniper might be another feat your player might like. DEXX bonus to crossbow damage, ranged sneak attacks up to 60ft. ...

This would likely be what you wanna go for. It pretty much guarantees at least 1 sneak attack eligible per round as 1 other person can hit the target

Edit: The feat is deadeye shot from phb2 p78 btw

[Harlot]

Deadeye shot it is. Thank you.
It will fit his style of play and my style of DM'ing. Awesome.

[Drachasor]

Silent Image and similar spells could make a Duck Blind for the rogue. They'd grant him total concealment until the enemy disbelieved the illusion (what counts as interaction here requires some debate).

[Eldariel]

Blink has the notable problem that it prevents sneak attack (because your own attacks have miss chance) unless you have Pierce Magical Concealment, Improved Precise Shot, or something similar.

This is one of those misconceptions that should just go die somewhere. No it doesn't. Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) explicitly says you only can't SA if the target has Concealment; Miss Chance has nothing to do with it (other than being a common consequence of Concealment). Blinking has nothing to do with Concealment.

"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."


If you are using blink I'd use a crystal of true death weapon crystal. the medium size crystal grants +1d6 vs undead and ghost touch which removes the miss chance associated with blink.

None of those things allows you to attack Material from Ethereal. The other way around, it's fairly common; Force-effects, Abjurations & similar extend from the Material to the Ethereal but the other way around not so much.

[TuggyNE]

This is one of those misconceptions that should just go die somewhere. No it doesn't. Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) explicitly says you only can't SA if the target has Concealment; Miss Chance has nothing to do with it (other than being a common consequence of Concealment). Blinking has nothing to do with Concealment.

"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."

Hmm, learn something new every day I guess.

[ericgrau]

You're right that it's difficult or impossible to flank from range; instead, the more common approaches are to use Hide checks to deny Dex, grease/marbles to force flat-footedness, or (greater) blink/greater invisibility to deny Dex.
You're missing the easiest one: winning initiative. Before a foe's first action he is flat-footed, meaning sneak attacks during the surprise round and round 1. Assuming the foe didn't surprise you.

The sole advantage of daggers is in fact being able to switch between melee and ranged. The player can get a full attack sneak attack in round 1 unlike other rogues. He may even use it with TWF if he has it. Then he can flank or whatever once enemies come to him. For pure ranged I'd rather have a short bow or javelins or darts. For pure melee I'd rather have a rapier and/or short sword. At high levels the cost of multiple magical daggers will be a problem, but this issue can be delayed to level 12 or 13 by getting non-weapon magic items like boots of speed, gloves of dexterity and so on. And much more from MiC, for an even greater delay to the problem. For DR/magic go to melee and/or carry oil of magic weapon. Though assuming he has no dagger related feats he could use darts or a bow in addition to a melee weapon. The TWF rules say a javelin acts like a one handed weapon and a dart like a light weapon.

Grappling also works. Not for the grappler but for his allies. But at ranged you have a 50% chance of hitting the wrong grappler unless you have improved precise shot.

[RogueDM]

You're missing the easiest one: winning initiative. Before a foe's first action he is flat-footed, meaning sneak attacks during the surprise round and round 1. Assuming the foe didn't surprise you.

By Crom, I had completely forgotten about this... I hang my head in shame.

The only time I had ever taken ranged SA as a player was when a band of orcs were climbing a tree to murder one of my party members (also a rogue who had just fumbled her bow). The group of them were stuck sans Dex bonus and presented me with a big green shooting gallery.

[Humble Master]

A great way to get Flat Footedness is with the Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuver. Make a Concentration check DC the enemies AC (not that hard considering the Rouge's wealth of skill points and how easy it is to pump skills) and then for that attack the enemy is treated as Flat Footed and you deal an additional 1d6 damage. Its a 1st level Diamond Mind maneuver so you can easily get it at first level with Martial Study and not even need to dip Swordsage or Warblade. Of course that only works for melee but your DM could probably adapt a ranged version.

[Harlot]

Just wanted to thank you all for helping.
I am the DM, not the PC, and just wanted to get the rules clarified, as neither the PC nor I seemed to know what we were doing ...

The PC being the rogue tends to be (too) careful/afraid, I guess because he doesn't know what he can and cannot pull off and still survive, so he hasn't been of much help to the other PC's during encounters.

With all of your info, I can hopefully help him get a more active and funnier place on the team, thus making the gaming more fun for him while sticking to rules and reason.

So once again: Thanks, you've all been of great help.