fun optimizations

[Somensjev]

ok, i was curious about some fun optimization people have done (game breaking or not, PO or TO)
i've read some, but there are some classes that i havent seen optimized, so i was hoping that while this thread was up i could get a different way to optimize every class in the 3.5 phb
it doesnt have to be overly powerful, as long as it works, and if you use something that's not from the phb, please say what book (and preferably what page too)

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're looking for something general, then just googling "x handbook 3.5" should get you some useful tips for x class. Brilliant Gameologists has a compilation of a number of handbooks, so that's a good place to start.

To summarize, here's one trick for each class.

barbarian: pounce
bard: dragonfire inspiration
cleric: DMM (Persist)
druid: druid (natural spell)
fighter: EWP: spiked chain
monk: size increases
paladin: ?
ranger: seeking arrows
rogue: daring outlaw
sorcerer: mailman
wizard: wizard

The most recent fun PO I've done is on a fighter. Reach weapon + short haft + defensive sweep + island of blades + morphing weapon + pounce (+ goad). Pretty simple, but fun. Any class could use this, though. Fighter was just easier with the feats.

I'm also curious - what classes have you not seen optimized?

[Darth Stabber]

paladin: ?


Battle Blessing - (lets you cast your paladin spells as swift actions at the cost of a turn attempt)

Or

Only take 2 levels and then go into a charisma based caster class.

[mabriss lethe]

Actually, battle blessing doesn't cost a turn attempt. It just effectively quickens most of your Paladin spells for the cost of a single feat. (well, standards become swifts and full rounds become standards)

I've been working on commoner optimization lately. The goal is to use nothing but races, feats, and items to create a moderately functional character at any level. Well, that's the design goal anyway. The real reason for the work is to come up with a quick list of low/no prerequisite resources that can be tacked on to just about any character type to expand their usefulness along orthogonal lines.

[Darth Stabber]

Whoops, you're right. I was thinking of third party feat, battle blessing is way better.

[Emperor Tippy]

Martial Monk 6/ Factotum 3/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 10.

Pick Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Reflect Arrows as your Martial Monk feats.

Be immune to all ranged attack and be capable of punching a Mailmans orbs back into his face

[Spuddles]

I've got a sorc/sandshaper using greyhawk method, cerebrosis, a sorc bloodline, nexus method, and apprentice feat to get enough spells known to rival a wizard.


Martial Monk 6/ Factotum 3/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 10.

Pick Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Reflect Arrows as your Martial Monk feats.

Be immune to all ranged attack and be capable of punching a Mailmans orbs back into his face

You can do the same thing on a dragonwrought kobold chassis, without any monk.

I've been toying around with that as an arena build for a long time, just to have a monk or something slam an orb or enervate back into the caster's face. The wall I always encounter is, well, what if the caster does something else?

[Emperor Tippy]

You can do the same thing on a dragonwrought kobold chassis, without any monk.
At the cost of far more feats and ability scores. You need Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, 25 Dex, and 19 Wis. So spend 6 feats plus the abilities and you can do what the Monk can do.


I've been toying around with that as an arena build for a long time, just to have a monk or something slam an orb or enervate back into the caster's face. The wall I always encounter is, well, what if the caster does something else?

Ranged attacks do **** all which means Summon's, Called creatures, or Melee (ranged touch attacks are worthless as well).

Swordsage 10 gives you Balance on the Sky which means an effective fly speed of 50 ft.

Properly built or equipped the caster can deal with you but, well, most characters aren't so built or equipped.

I mean how many times have you seen a Sorcerer show up to an arena match with a Craft Contingent Psychic Reformation or two on their build? There is nothing quite like a free action respec of your entire spell list and feats.

[Feytalist]

ranger: seeking arrows

I'd maybe change this into Swift Hunter Greater Manyshot Travel Devotionist. Works pretty okay. Not a single class, but eh.

[Emperor Tippy]

Martial Monk 2/ Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3

Martial Monk feats are Devastating Critical (Dagger) and Storm of Throws. As a full round action you can throw a dagger at every creature within 30 ft. Go first and they are all sneak attacks. Add Craven.

Deal 1d4+1d6+5 (Int)+ 6 (HD) damage to each target within 30 feet. Not great but fun.

Finish it off with Assassin 9/ Arcane Trickster 4 and spend a feat for Assassins Stance.

That gets you a +10d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a level 13 Assassin.

Great? No. But still fun

[thethird]

Two dvati twins devoted defender who were defending each other. Basically they were rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Devoted Defender 3 / Swashbuckler +11

Having island of blades to flank by standing together and basically deflect every attack that came their way.

[Somensjev]

Martial Monk 2/ Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3

Martial Monk feats are Devastating Critical (Dagger) and Storm of Throws. As a full round action you can throw a dagger at every creature within 30 ft. Go first and they are all sneak attacks. Add Craven.

Deal 1d4+1d6+5 (Int)+ 6 (HD) damage to each target within 30 feet. Not great but fun.

-snip-

Great? No. But still fun

i have to try this :smallamused:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Battle Blessing - (lets you cast your paladin spells as swift actions at the cost of a turn attempt)

Or

Only take 2 levels and then go into a charisma based caster class.

Alternatively, take a Cleric dip, go Ur-Priest and then take Prestige Paladin advancing Ur-Priest.


Here's mine:

Dread Barbarian: First, you take an ordinary Human Barbarian with two flaws (I recommend Vulnerable twice), who has picked up the following feats: Blazing Beserker (Sandstorm), Frozen Beserker (Frosburn), Extra Rage (Complete Adventurer) and Instantaneous Rage (Unsure off hand).

Then you take a Dread Blossom Swarm (MM III) and use it in conjunction with the Symbiote Template (Savage Species, LA +1). If your DM allows it, have your newly intelligent Dread Blossom Swarm pick up Extra Rage with all of its feat slots.

Dread Blossom Swarm has Regeneration 5/Fire and Cold. Now, Blazing Beserker and Frozen Beserker gives you the Fire/Cold subtypes, making you immune to that damage. Thanks to Instantaneous Rage, you can grab those immunities at any time as a free action and thanks to all those Extra Rage feats you have, you can rage at least nine times per day, so you're not likely to run out during an average day.

Your reward for all this effort? Two things that can deal lethal damage to you. Yes, two. Searing Spell (Although that's doubtful*) and Trollbane. Every other way of dealing you damage you are either flat out immune to (This includes every Save or Die, you simply can't be targeted by them) or you only take non lethal damage from them.

*Searing Spell is doubtful because its Frostburn counterpart has a note that says it doesn't affect creatures with the Cold subtype.

[Somensjev]

by the way, could someone tell me where i could find the marial monk and swashbuckler
also ur-preist

[Sgt. Cookie]

You can find Ur-Priest on the forum. He has a photographic knowledge of 3.5. He can often be found wherever a rules debate is going on. He's usually winning them.

In all seriousness, Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine.

[Emperor Tippy]

Alternatively, take a Cleric dip, go Ur-Priest and then take Prestige Paladin advancing Ur-Priest.
To take Ur-Priest you can't have any divine spell casting.

[Emperor Tippy]

by the way, could someone tell me where i could find the marial monk and swashbuckler
also ur-preist

Martial Monk: Dragon #310
Swashbuckler: Complete Warrior
Ur-Priest: Complete Divine

[Nightraiderx]

If you are going to use battle blessing,
use prestiege pally, that my other trick I like to do with cleric,

cleric 5/Prestiege Pally 1/RVK 9/ 5 Ordained Champion.

Take Serene to make your turn based off of wisdom.
Ordained nets you the war domain.
Battle blessing to get all your paladin spells as swift actions.
Spam until feeling properly buffed.
I also specialize transmutation so you can get +2 bonus on any spell
using the transmutation enhancer feat from complete dragon.
People complain about the no 9th lvl spells before lvl 20 but you can take the damn feat at lvl 21 for epic casting since you are right on the cusp of it. You have wisdom to ALOT of things, you can replace ur str and damage, turnings, powers ur swift action buffs, the war domain has very nice buffs that'll keep you on top of things pretty easily. Paladin level buffs are nice and some even come before they come up on the cleric list and you'll have alot more castings of that list.

Another fun thing to have is a Mystra initiate Paladin 1 and warblade/crusader 19 you use the paladin to qualify for the white raven feat and the rest of the levels will take the effect. Stack that with DFI and words of creation and you have full bab Tob smack down use both the DFI effect and the regular one you'll have a good +8 to attack damage and +8d6 elemental damage on top of your manuevers.

If you don't want to take paladin alignment restrictions you can look for warrior/poet (requires power attack and cleave) and use that at 7th level to mix with the feat.

Don't forget high level exalted feats allow you to "merge" with a solar at higher levels which means a whole nother list of cleric spells and at will abilities you can use for out of combat buffing/healing and save your spells for w/e else u want. 10 mins/lvl persist that and you have for a 9th lvl slot another slew of cleric spells.

[Sgt. Cookie]

To take Ur-Priest you can't have any divine spell casting.

Correct, but we are only taking one level of Cleric to get Turn Undead. It says in Ur-Priest that you can forsake any Divine Spellcasting you already possessed, which we are to do. Doesn't say anything about forsaking Class Features.

[Somensjev]

-snip-
I'm also curious - what classes have you not seen optimized?

i completely missed this. mostly i've seen wizard/sorc, a bit of druid, some monk
also a few of tippy's posts (eg zodar, and ice assassin of an aleax (prety sure that was it))

[Emperor Tippy]

I think I've seen everything but some more obscure classes and CW Samurai optimized.

In core I personally have optimized everything but the Paladin.

---
Hmm, my list of core classes by how much I like them and how fun I find them:
-Wizard
-Sorcerer
-Monk
-Druid
-Cleric
-Rogue
-Bard
-Fighter
-Ranger
-Barbarian
-Paladin

[prufock]

A build I had fun with was Sorc 5/Dread Witch 5/Nightmare Spinner 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 5. With my insanely high intimidate check, fear spells, and class abilities, I could scare the crap out of anything, including zombies and constructs.

[Somensjev]

I think I've seen everything but some more obscure classes and CW Samurai optimized.

In core I personally have optimized everything but the Paladin.

---
Hmm, my list of core classes by how much I like them and how fun I find them:
-Wizard
-Sorcerer
-Monk
-Druid
-Cleric
-Rogue
-Bard
-Fighter
-Ranger
-Barbarian
-Paladin

now i want to see you attempt a paladin or a CW samurai... :smallwink:

[Feytalist]

I think I've seen everything but some more obscure classes and CW Samurai optimized.

Schneeky had at one time a demoralizer build in his sig that included CW Samurai (into Ronin, if I recall). That possibly counts?

[Tokiko Mima]

I like mixing exotic monsters to create idealized race/class combos.

Pixie + Warlock (Complete Arcane) is a fun and easy optimization you can do from level 5+. Just stat it up, and you'll see.

Karsite (Tome of Magic) DFA's (Dragon Magic) also work well. Wear medium armor and use a tower shield (you're proficient because of your type) and take Entangling Exhalation (Races of the Dragon). Now you're the ultimate in D&D tanks, able to instantly lock down Evasion-less monsters as they come near.

[Darth Stabber]

…Karsite…
…tower shield (you're proficient because of your type)…

Since when have humanoids had proficiencies from type? Karsites are Humanoid (human), and humanoid gives you squat. At any rate, just dip fighter, every one loves bonus feats.

[Asrrin]

My favorite optimization is to be a Sorcerer and use Ancestral Relic on a Custom Runestaff. Suddenly your list of spells known becomes effectively "All of them."

[Grod_The_Giant]

My all-time favorite is the Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious). The Exemplar PrC from Complete Adventurer lets you use a skill performance as a Diplomacy check, as long as it's non-violent and takes at least a minute. Pump your Jump check to an absurdly high level (the link gets up to +370; 400 if you're a Thri-Keen), leap several several hundred feet, land safely a minute later due to the way Jump interacts with movement speed, and instantly convert a crowd to Fanatical.

Sure, it's over-complicated and not all that high-power in the greater scheme of things... but just think of the look on your DM's face.

[Snowbluff]

Here are some of the ones I like to use. Legality might be iffy on some.

Warlock1/AnimaMage

Coure Eladrin Familiar with Drow SLA feats, namely deceptive illumination.

Using the Novice ToB items to pick up Shadow Jaunt, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Hunter's Sense... 3kgp each! That's cheap!

Speaking of Drow SLAs, using the feats from DotU you can make a Drow character with a good number of effects for a few feats.

Magic in the Blood with Phrenic, Half-Fey or any template with 1/day SLAs. Bonus points if your DM let you spend 2 ranks in Knowledge Local to playing something other than a Gnome.

Swordsade/Warblade/Crusader/Master of Nine, then when you hit level 10, use Legacy Champ to progress MoN for broken IL progression (Legacy Champ is at 1/2, but adds an extra 1 each time it progresses MoN) and more maneuver than you have room for.

Fiend of Possession. Or using Leadership to get a Fiend of Possession cohort to add bonuses to your weapon.

Divine Minion (Wildshapes as 11th level druid, IIRC) for Early Master of Many forms entry into Chameleon. Pretend to be anything!


Battle Blessing - (lets you cast your paladin spells as swift actions at the cost of a turn attempt)

Or

Only take 2 levels and then go into a charisma based caster class.

Mounted fighting. Have your Mount take Martial Stance for Leading the Charge.

[Bonzai]

I have a Hexblade build that can debuff an opponent by -16 to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage rolls, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC all in one round. -6 of those debuffs are just from being next to your target. If unseelie fey is allowed, then things get REALLY ridiculous.

[Somensjev]

I have a Hexblade build that can debuff an opponent by -16 to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage rolls, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC all in one round. -6 of those debuffs are just from being next to your target. If unseelie fey is allowed, then things get REALLY ridiculous.

think you could show how you did that? i wanna try it :smallamused:

[Fates]

I once played an air goblin rogue/bard in an E6 campaign who somehow got the ability to fly (was it just a few wands, or something else? Can't recall.) Anyway, I took Flyby Attack and Great Flyby attack, started using a spell-storing whip-and-dagger, and then took aberrant blood and inhuman reach. Since I had about 27 or 28 dexterity by that point, I could, as a full-round action, target up to eight enemies (or allies) who were within thirty feet of me as I flew by, with any one of my or the party wizard's spells. Sure, it's hardly overpowered, but for an e6 game is was quite effective, and fun as hell.

[AWiz_Abroad]

I've got a sorc/sandshaper using greyhawk method, cerebrosis, a sorc bloodline, nexus method, and apprentice feat to get enough spells known to rival a wizard.

Now this build fascinates me, could you please expand?

[Nightraiderx]

I have a Hexblade build that can debuff an opponent by -16 to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage rolls, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC all in one round. -6 of those debuffs are just from being next to your target. If unseelie fey is allowed, then things get REALLY ridiculous.

My first guess is that you used the focalor binding with the hexblade badluck familiar, as for the rest I'm not sure how.

[Spuddles]

Now this build fascinates me, could you please expand?

Absolutely.

A one level dip in sandshaper (sandstorm) gives you 20-30 spells known, from 1st to 9th. Some of the spells are must haves- windwall, dispel magic. The Summon Desert Ally spells are weak summon monsters, but all come with blindsight 60' which makes them useful. Ashworms have burrow, which is also useful. Not great bruisers, but decent utility.

Flesh to Salt is a weaker disintegrate, Wall of Sand is a decent wall spell. In other words, these are all slightly weaker versions of spells you'd want as spells known, but may not be able to fit.

You also get all 6 of the bull's str, etc. The ones for physical attributes come as 1st level spells. Pretty nifty.

At first level, you need to pick up Apprentice (DMG2) and a Bloodline that has some decent spells on it. Bloodline feats, from a dragon magazine, give you a bonus spell known. Apprentice gives you a bonus 1st spell known as well as letting you swap out a spell known for a different spell every time you level. So combine the two and you get 10 bonus spells known.

If you find a bloodline you really like, you can nab the Mother Cyst feat for more spell swapping fuel, but most of the bloodlines are rather weak, IMO. Mother Cyst may be the better option because the Bloodlines have drawbacks, some rather severe (like no casting transmutation spells).

Cerebrosis is from a dragon magazine, which is a feat you can take, or gain as a bonus feat making some knowledge arcana checks and spending gp on expensive incense. It adds around 12 spells, from 1st to 9th, to your spell list. These are cerebrotic spells, and someone who knows them becomes a cerebrant. These spells have to do with the Far Realms- an amoral sea of madness beyond reality, seething with horrible and unfathomable abominations. The spells are basically weaker versions of Core spells, but usually you get them a level sooner, and they can be made more powerful, but at personal risk. For instance, you get a 3rd level dimension door, but it has a variable transit time (percentile roll) and you take damage. If you roll 100 you die in the far realms. You can increase your chance of death and instead turn the spell into a teleport spell. So Teleport at 3rd level is pretty cool, if you dont mind the 25% chance to die.

Then there are the two Greyhawk regional Method feats- Greyhawk Method & Nexus Method. I prefer the Greyhawk Method, but that requires another feat to qualify for- Arcane preparation.

See here for a discussion of how Greyhawk Method makes sorcerers awesome (+4 spells known every time you level):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282689

Nexus Method lets you cast summon monster spells, so effectively adds all summon monster spells to your list.

Note that both these feats are regional feats, from mutually exclusive regions. Of course, there's no reason you couldn't somehow get Greyhawk to join the Free Cities of the Molnar Compact.

Now find a way to raise the level of spells you cast- earth spell, versatile spellcaster, sanctum spell metamagic- all are good. The more you can combine, the better.

At 4th level, and every 2 levels after, you get to change spells known, but they have to be two levels below the highest you can cast. If you know, say, 4th level spells, but can cast a "6th" level spell thanks to versatile, heighten, and sanctum spell, then you can now repick a 4th level spell known.

Lastly, get a way to cast the psionic power psychic restoration, either via a dorje (psionic scroll), an ally, or whatever. This lets you repick all your feats and spells. This lets you build your character organically, until you can get your hands on psy reform, then rebuild your char and get rid of say, sleep, to pick up hoard gullet. Limited Wish will let you cast Psy Reform, but you have to wait a while.

Ancestral Weapon, a feat that requires you to be good, from BoED, and runestaffs lets you have spells known: any, on your list, which may be the most straightforward way to be awesome. Personally, I don't like playing good characters, and I like enormous spells lists, so YMMV.

[edit]
The above build, in a game I was playing, requires a spreadsheet to keep track of everything. At 7th level, I think he has 95 spells known, from 0th to 4th.

[edit again]
Actually, he's casting as a sorc 9 at level 7, and has 100 spells known, from 0 to 4th.

[Spuddles]

My first guess is that you used the focalor binding with the hexblade badluck familiar, as for the rest I'm not sure how.

Paladin of Tyranny and Blackguard gets you another -4 to saves for adjacent foes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The above build, in a game I was playing, requires a spreadsheet to keep track of everything. At 7th level, I think he has 95 spells known, from 0th to 4th.
http://img.mu.cdn.li/Ao/xqefEH.jpg

[AWiz_Abroad]

http://www.fastcoexist.com/multisite_files/coexist/imagecache/inline-large/inline/2013/06/1682410-inline-citizen.jpg


Nicely done on the sorcerer. Your build has more spells than my wizard I've taken from 1-22 (Not hardcore optimized)

[Bonzai]

think you could show how you did that? i wanna try it :smallamused:

Sure.

Human Hexblade 7/Black Guard 3/Hexblade 10

Feats: Dreadful Wrath, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Brutal Strike, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Netherese Battle Curse.

Just summarizing the -'s to saves for ease of book keeping.

Greater Hexblade curse:Complete Warrior, -4 to saves as a Free action if they fail a will save.

Dark Companion: PHB2 alternative class feature. Passive aura, -2 to saves.

Aura of Despair: DMG, passive -2 aura.

Aura of Sadness: ToM, you get it through Bind Vestige and improved Bind Vestige, and binding Focalor. Passive -2 aura.

Dreadful Wrath: PGtF. When you charge, cast a spell, or make a full attack, all enemies within 20ft have to make a will save or be shaken (-2 to saves).

Brutal Strike: PHB2. When you power attack, target makes a fort save or becomes sickened (-2 to saves).

Netherese Battle Curse: LEoF. As part of an attack, sacrifice a spell (which grants DC and attack bonuses. Will save or -2 to saves.

So, charge an opponent and power attack and expend a spell as part of the attack. Everyone within 5ft has an initial -6 penalty to their saves. Everyone within 20ft has to make a will save or be shaken, the target of your charge has to make an additional fort and will save. After the attack, and hopefully after being severely debuffed, you can free action your Hexblade curse. If everything sticks, thats a total -16 to your primary target's saves which leaves it at the party casters mercy.

Black Guard was taken for Aura of despair and it's passive aura. The +Charisma to saves is also a huge plus, especially when combined with Mettle and Arcane resistance. Dipping into it is an even trade more or less, as I am simply swapping the +2 improvement from the Dire curse, to the passive aura. Most DM's I know won't allow Paladin of Tyranny and Black Guards aura to stack, since they are identical. Similarly to the rulings on Monk and Sword Sage's +wis to armor issue.

Unseelie fey, (dragon magazine, so up to DM approval), makes this build ridiculous. It gives a passive aura that debuffs saves equal to your charisma modifier. This brings your debuffing to insane levels, potentially adding another -14 or so if you work at it (-30 to saves, -20 being done passively with no saves involved? Good luck!). It also provides DR which stacks well with your damage roll reduction. DR 15/cold iron and a -10 to damage rolls is nothing to sneeze at.

I like the build a lot, and if continually scales as it progresses so it won't be a pain to level up. Casters in the party will love you, but your DM might not. LOL

EDIT: Nasty combo that I did with the above mentioned charge, was add in a belt of battle for the swift to get another standard action, then casting baleful polymorph. Good way to take down a major threat in a single round.

[Wings of Peace]

Anything involving Tibbits.

[Darth Stabber]

Anything involving Tibbits.
Step 1: Be a Tibbit Psion
Step 2: Find an insane looking vagrant.
Step 3: Convince said vagrant that he is a sorcerer and you are his familiar.
Step 4: Manifest a power when it seems like the vargrant is "trying to use his magic"
Step 5: Gently manipulate the vagrant into assaulting one of your enemies.
Step 6: Fight the battle for him from the shadows.
Step 7: If he dies run away and return to step 2, otherwise return to step 5.

[Rubik]

i completely missed this. mostly i've seen wizard/sorc, a bit of druid, some monk
also a few of tippy's posts (eg zodar, and ice assassin of an aleax (prety sure that was it))If you want to see a truly optimized monk that doesn't touch epic stuff, but can take out epic stuff anyway... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

I'm not entirely sure how this stacks up to casters. Obviously a tier one as optimized as this thing is will destroy anything that isn't the exact same thing, but even somewhat optimized casters will probably have difficulty doing anything but running away.

[Somensjev]

in ToB the decription of snapkick says


when you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. this attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your strength bonus, you take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round

so, could you make an extra attack, since your snap kick landed succesfully? or am i missing something obvious?

[Rubik]

in ToB the decription of snapkick says

so, could you make an extra attack, since your snap kick landed succesfully? or am i missing something obvious?Not entirely sure if this answers your question (since it's oddly and awkwardly phrased, or perhaps chaotically and stupidly phrased :smalltongue:), but...

It says that whenever you make any kind of attack action, you get one bonus attack, and all attacks are at a -2 penalty. You only get one attack. You don't get an extra attack per attack (or per Snap Kick attack).

[Somensjev]

Not entirely sure if this answers your question (since it's oddly and awkwardly phrased, or perhaps chaotically and stupidly phrased :smalltongue:), but...

It says that whenever you make any kind of attack action, you get one bonus attack, and all attacks are at a -2 penalty. You only get one attack. You don't get an extra attack per attack (or per Snap Kick attack).

it's very awkwardly phrased if that's the case :smallsigh:

[Tokiko Mima]

Since when have humanoids had proficiencies from type? Karsites are Humanoid (human), and humanoid gives you squat. At any rate, just dip fighter, every one loves bonus feats.

Ah, glad you asked! Karsites are racially proficient in medium armor(it's in their description), and they are humanoid type. The relevant text for that says the following:


Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.



Therefore, Karsites pick up their shield proficiency without any need to be a fighter, or even waste a feat.

Another reason this is ideal for a DFA is that their Supernatural breath weapon doesn't trigger ACF or AoO's, like a warlock's eldritch blast would. Of course, the invocations themselves do, but the good ones tend to last 24 hours, or at the very least long enough to be refreshed outside combat. So you can stick yourself in pretty reasonable armor and a shield, and you get SR (10 + class level) and DR 5/magic right out of the gate.

Granted, the DR won't stay good as you go up levels and SR isn't a perfect defense by any means, but I'd take a Karsite DFA tank over a fighter tank any day of the week. One of them can lock down foes in a 30' cone for 1d4 rounds, and the other has to get a feat chain to do that to only one enemy at a time.

[Somensjev]

If you want to see a truly optimized monk that doesn't touch epic stuff, but can take out epic stuff anyway... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

I'm not entirely sure how this stacks up to casters. Obviously a tier one as optimized as this thing is will destroy anything that isn't the exact same thing, but even somewhat optimized casters will probably have difficulty doing anything but running away.

also, where can i find the double-hit feat?

[Rubik]

also, where can i find the double-hit feat?All the sources (and the page numbers) for everything not in the SRD are in the post. For this one, it's the Miniature's Handbook, page 25.

You can also Google "D&D Tools" to help you out.

[Somensjev]

All the sources (and the page numbers) for everything not in the SRD are in the post. For this one, it's the Miniature's Handbook, page 25.

You can also Google "D&D Tools" to help you out.

huh.. i've never looked through this book before, some of the things in it seem useful

[Spuddles]

DNDtools has some problems, mostly 3.0 splat material not reflecting the update to 3.5, like the incantatrix and scintillating scales.

[Darth Stabber]

Therefore, Karsites pick up their shield proficiency without any need to be a fighter, or even waste a feat.
1) touché, kinda.
2) most GMs would rule otherwise, but by raw fine. By that same logic most of the phb races are proficient with a bunch of armor, since they usually use warriors for those entries.
3) the 'karsites as characters" block makes no mention of said proficiency, which normally includes racial profs, leading you to the natural conclusion that it was an oversight.


and the other has to get a feat chain to do that to only one enemy at a time.

False, a lockdown fighter can lock down it's dex mod in foes, and has many other advantages (including damage output and survivability). And zero LA is always nice. And shields are crap, lockdown fighters would never use one (other than a masterwork or better buckler). Also, you can be a karsite lockdown fighter. If you are going to go karsite, be a psion.

Also, tanking is less effective battlefield control than a full caster.

[Curmudgeon]

To summarize, here's one trick for each class.
...
rogue: daring outlaw
That's a Swashbuckler trick, not a Rogue trick. This trick lets the Swashbuckler get full sneak attack progression without any Rogue levels.

[Darth Stabber]

That's a Swashbuckler trick, not a Rogue trick. This trick lets the Swashbuckler get full sneak attack progression without any Rogue levels.

True, I would say that flanking, the penetrating strike acf, the craven feat, and umd abuse are rogue's main tricks

[Somensjev]

True, I would say that flanking, the penetrating strike acf, the craven feat, and umd abuse are rogue's main tricks

where can i find the craven feat? i've seen people mention it before, but i dont know where to find it

[Darth Stabber]

You can find out right here (http://www.google.com)

[Curmudgeon]

where can i find the craven feat?
Specifically, Craven is in Champions of Ruin on page 17.

Generally, you can find the Wizards of the Coast D&D 3.5 feat index here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats). Dragon Magazine feats are listed here (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/feats.html).

[Somensjev]

Specifically, Craven is in Champions of Ruin on page 17.

Generally, you can find the Wizards of the Coast D&D 3.5 feat index here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats). Dragon Magazine feats are listed here (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/feats.html).

i dont have champions of ruin, and my stupid laptop doesnt work with the links.. :smallannoyed:

[Tokiko Mima]

1) touché, kinda.
2) most GMs would rule otherwise, but by raw fine. By that same logic most of the phb races are proficient with a bunch of armor, since they usually use warriors for those entries.
3) the 'karsites as characters" block makes no mention of said proficiency, which normally includes racial profs, leading you to the natural conclusion that it was an oversight.

2) Not really. Most humanoids do not have racial armor proficiency. They're just statted as wearing armor. Karsites are one of the few exceptions where the shield proficiency is actually applied.

3) Wha..? Are you looking at the same Tome of Magic, pg. 86 that I am? In the "Karsites as Characters" the bullet point between Spellcasting Inability and Favored class, the quality listed is "Proficiencies: Karsites are proficient with light and medium armor, and with martial weapons." That's not an oversight, they actually did put it *exactly* there.


False, a lockdown fighter can lock down it's dex mod in foes, and has many other advantages (including damage output and survivability). And zero LA is always nice. And shields are crap, lockdown fighters would never use one (other than a masterwork or better buckler). Also, you can be a karsite lockdown fighter. If you are going to go karsite, be a psion.

Also, tanking is less effective battlefield control than a full caster.

I never said it was more effective. If effectiveness was what you wanted, everyone would be a full caster.

[GilesTheCleric]

That's a Swashbuckler trick, not a Rogue trick. This trick lets the Swashbuckler get full sneak attack progression without any Rogue levels.

You're entirely correct. I probably should have said penetrating strike or craven instead, but those seemed too simplistic. I had the same problem with the ranger.

[CyberThread]

Martial Monk 2/ Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3

Martial Monk feats are Devastating Critical (Dagger) and Storm of Throws. As a full round action you can throw a dagger at every creature within 30 ft. Go first and they are all sneak attacks. Add Craven.

Deal 1d4+1d6+5 (Int)+ 6 (HD) damage to each target within 30 feet. Not great but fun.

Finish it off with Assassin 9/ Arcane Trickster 4 and spend a feat for Assassins Stance.

That gets you a +10d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a level 13 Assassin.

Great? No. But still fun

except your entire build uses epic feats in the first 2 levels...?

[Spuddles]

except your entire build uses epic feats in the first 2 levels...?

That's the beauty of martial monk. It let's you take ANY fighter feat, because the RAW is bonus feats, ignore pre-reqs.

[Curmudgeon]

That's the beauty of martial monk. It let's you take ANY fighter feat, because the RAW is bonus feats, ignore pre-reqs.
That's nonsense. Martial Monk doesn't change the language of the Monk Bonus Feat class feature. That specifically lists six feats for which the Monk need not meet the prerequisites. With no change in the language, you're still limited to those six listed feats; for everything else, the normal rules continue to apply.

[Rubik]

That's nonsense. Martial Monk doesn't change the language of the Monk Bonus Feat class feature. That specifically lists six feats for which the Monk need not meet the prerequisites. With no change in the language, you're still limited to those six listed feats; for everything else, the normal rules continue to apply.Except martial monk adds any fighter feat to the list presented in the PHB. For the purposes of the character using the variant, it appends and erratas the regular monk's feat options.

[Emperor Tippy]

except your entire build uses epic feats in the first 2 levels...?

That is what Martial Monk is for.

[Curmudgeon]

Except martial monk adds any fighter feat to the list presented in the PHB. For the purposes of the character using the variant, it appends and erratas the regular monk's feat options.
That's your addition, not part of the Martial Monk variant. All it "appends" is:
Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level); Intimidate is class skill. There is a change to the list of feats to choose from; there is no change to the feats excepted from prerequisite rules. More specifically, it doesn't delete the list of 6 feats from the Monk Bonus Feat class feature; it merely makes them not the only ones you can choose with this variant. (All 6 feats are Fighter bonus feats already.) The prerequisite exception language is still specific to those 6 listed feats.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's your addition, not part of the Martial Monk variant. All it "appends" is: There is a change to the list of feats to choose from; there is no change to the feats excepted from prerequisite rules. More specifically, it doesn't delete the list of 6 feats from the Monk Bonus Feat class feature; it merely makes them not the only ones you can choose with this variant. (All 6 feats are Fighter bonus feats already.) The prerequisite exception language is still specific to those 6 listed feats.

Except that is not how it reads.

Martial Monk adds the fighter feats to the Monk Bonus Feats class feature. Said class feature has, as its last sentence, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.".

You are applying said sentence only to the six feats listed in the core Monk when you should be applying it to the class feature as a whole.

[Rubik]

That's your addition, not part of the Martial Monk variant.Are you really trying to say that using the class feature variant doesn't change the class feature being changed? Because that's exactly what you're going for. Note that I limited my statement to the characters using that variant, and that the change in wording only applies to those characters. For them, it is essentially errata, even if the original printing didn't have errors in general. For the variant, they are missing the additional feats, and are thus errors (in a manner of speaking) for those characters.


All it "appends" is: There is a change to the list of feats to choose from; there is no change to the feats excepted from prerequisite rules. More specifically, it doesn't delete the list of 6 feats from the Monk Bonus Feat class feature; it merely makes them not the only ones you can choose with this variant. (All 6 feats are Fighter bonus feats already.) The prerequisite exception language is still specific to those 6 listed feats.And it adds the fighter feats to the list of feats present, and which don't require prereqs.

[Somensjev]

martial monk seems much better than normal monks

[Emperor Tippy]

martial monk seems much better than normal monks

All of the monk ACF's are much better than normal monks.

[Somensjev]

All of the monk ACF's are much better than normal monks.

it's not exactly that dificult to be better than normal monks :smallwink: