Dragonwrought Shenanigans

[Andezzar]

I wonder how this aging to venerable and taking the dragonwrought feat works:

1) Isn't -6 to all physical stats and +3 to all mental stats a bad bargain. Forgot about the cumulative part

2) can you even age to verable before being level 1, Dragonrwought can only be taken at Level 1.

I read this idea in the build section of this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8711297&postcount=9).

[Vaz]

1) I forget where, but Dragonwrought IIRC means you take aging penalties. So free +3 to mentals. Edit; Pg 39, RotD.

2) Yes, you can.

[ArcturusV]

I always read the Aging differently, myself. So it'd be -6 Str, Dex, Con, but +3 Int, Wis, Cha.

Which is potentially a much worse option for MADers, but better for shapechangers.

I honestly don't know what the whole Dragonwrought thing is about. I am guessing it has to do with some cheese involving the fact that Dragons are determined by Age. There's probably some feats out there that say things like "Can only be taken by a Dragon of ____ age category" or the like. But I haven't bothered to track it down myself.

[Vaz]

A Dragonwrought Kobold gains +3 to all mental scores. It's a Dragon, so allows it to take Archetypes. It can take Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, and count as a 5th level sorcerer at 1st, or something daft like that.

And yes, aging is cumulative; -1-2-3 physical and +1+1+1 for mental stats. Which means that you get better hearing and spotting as you get older.

Some believe this means you count as a True Dragon; there was a thread on it a while ago. I'm not digging it out. This means that some people believe that they can take Epic Feats prior to Epic levels (as they count as an Old Dragon). I personally don't believe that, but for any caster gaining +3 to their casting stat for free at the expense of a feat, I think it's fairly decent going for a feat.

[Andezzar]

2) Yes, you can.But why? p. 39 of RotD also gives us the random starting age. Even the maximum random starting age (table 3-1) for a cleric or wizard is 14 years, according to the other table (3-2) that is in the adult age range. So you would need DM approval to make an older character, right? Or is there a rule that you can make characters of any age as long as you do not generate the age randomly?

[Vaz]

Not according to the PHB.


You can choose or randomly generate your character’s age

[Andezzar]

Well can you choose freely or can you only choose within the period allowed for random generation?

[ArcturusV]

Generally it's taken to mean that you can just pick an age, or if you are someone who prefers random generation, it's an option there for you. There's no rules stated for picking an age other than it MUST be the minimal age for adulthood plus your minimal role for your class.

Sadly they've changed a lot of the reasons in older editions why you might want a Spellcaster to be younger, rather than older. Like the spell Haste aging you 10 years everytime you use it. Though if you find you have a problem with things like that, you might want to institute such a thing as a house rule to certain effects, like Haste, Contingencies, Time Stops, Celerity, etc.

It's about the only way that Old Age will ever matter for a character.

[Roguenewb]

Well can you choose freely or can you only choose within the period allowed for random generation?

You can choose any age you want. There are no rules against playing an infant! They have listed stats! Honestly though you are allowed to chose venerable. Dragonwrought scrubs off the physical penalties part.

[Chronos]

Dragonwroughts age, but they don't suffer penalties for doing so. So you take the feat when you're a young'un, wait however many years it is for dragonwrought kobolds to reach Venerable, and then start adventuring.

EDIT: Oh, and this is pretty clear in the rules. It's an entirely different exploit than the "dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons and can take epic feats" thing-- That one is on a bit shakier ground, and is usually used by theoretical optimizers or munchkins.

[Vaz]

You can choose any age you want. There are no rules against playing an infant! They have listed stats! Honestly though you are allowed to chose venerable. Dragonwrought scrubs off the physical penalties part.

They do? Where?

[Roguenewb]

They do? Where?

I meant to say they don't. Whoops.

[Andezzar]

Isn't there a young template somewhere?

[Karnith]

Isn't there a young template somewhere?
Pathfinder has one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1), certainly.

[Andezzar]

Pathfinder has one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1), certainly.But does 3.5?

[Karnith]

But does 3.5?
I couldn't find one on the Master Template List (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List), so I would guess not.

EDIT: Though unusable by PCs, the Dungeonbred template is similar to the Young template, though it isn't a straight downgrade like the Young template is.

[Coidzor]

But why? p. 39 of RotD also gives us the random starting age. Even the maximum random starting age (table 3-1) for a cleric or wizard is 14 years, according to the other table (3-2) that is in the adult age range. So you would need DM approval to make an older character, right? Or is there a rule that you can make characters of any age as long as you do not generate the age randomly?

Very few people actually roll for starting age. It's more forgotten than the BS that is the multiclass XP penalty.

[Spuddles]

Dragonwroughts age, but they don't suffer penalties for doing so. So you take the feat when you're a young'un, wait however many years it is for dragonwrought kobolds to reach Venerable, and then start adventuring.

EDIT: Oh, and this is pretty clear in the rules. It's an entirely different exploit than the "dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons and can take epic feats" thing-- That one is on a bit shakier ground, and is usually used by theoretical optimizers or munchkins.

Dragonwrought kobolds are unequivocally dragons, and all dragons count as Epic, regardless of HD, for [Epic] feats (Draconomicon). Therefore, dragonwrought kobolds can take epic feats. They still have to meet skill requiremens, etc.

The debate about being true dragons arises when discussing whether kobolds qualify for Soveriegn Archetypes from Dragons of Eberron. The best one there is Loredrake, which increases sorc casting by two.

Dragonwrought is good for the two non-TO reasons:

+3 all mental stats without aging penalties

+1 free sorc casting level when you undergo the greater draconic rite. That requires a feat and 5 or 6 HD. It's from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement Kobolds: Playing to Their Strengths.

Oh, and kobolds also get two martial weapon proficiencies from that web enhancement (DCFS fuel) and sligh build.

Slight build is like the inverse of powerful build and gives you an additional +4 to hide. A kobold rogue with draconic rite (shrink person) can have a +23 hide at level 1. That's invisibility level hiding.

[Karnith]

Dragonwrought kobolds are unequivocally dragons, and all dragons count as Epic, regardless of HD, for [Epic] feats (Draconomicon). Therefore, dragonwrought kobolds can take epic feats. They still have to meet skill requiremens, etc.
Small clarification: The Draconomicon specifies that:

These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age can also choose these feats, even if they have no class levels.
(Emphasis mine)

So you need to be a dragon that is old or older to qualify for epic feats. Due to a rules quirk, venerable dragonwrought kobolds are generally agreed to satisfy this requirement.

[Spuddles]

Small clarification: The Draconomicon specifies that:

(Emphasis mine)

So you need to be a dragon that is old or older to qualify for epic feats. Due to a rules quirk, venerable dragonwrought kobolds are generally agreed to satisfy this requirement.

Ah yes, an important detail. I am not necessarily sure I would call it a rules "quirk". Old age exists for virtually ALL creatures that age, and kobolds in particular have aging categories identical to true dragons, so even if it were argued that Old there only applied to draconic age categories, kobolds would also meet that requirement.

The RAW is ironclad, unlike the case for them being True Dragons, where it's a bit questionable.