Thri-Kreen Sneak Attack Full Attack in Darkness?

[Maginomicon]

Thri-kreen have 5 natural weapons and darkvision. A darklight (magic item, Secrets of Sarlona page 140; 500 gp) creates non-magical lighting conditions (or non-magical darkness conditions) in an 80-ft radius.

I play a thri-kreen, get the sneak attack feature somehow, and buy a darklight.


Cast Spectral Hand (which uses melee attacks not ranged attacks).
Switch the darklight to "no light" mode (creating a zone of non-magical pure darkness).
Cast Corrosive Grasp (Spell Compendium page 53) with five charges on it.


What I want to know is: Can I make a full attack from 80 feet away with Spectral Hand to sneak attack with Corrosive Grasp five times?

(Granted, it'd only work against creatures without darkvision, but still.)

[BowStreetRunner]

There are a couple of problems with this.

First of all, Corrosive Grasp covers your hand, not all of your hands. Just one. So even if you have four, only one of them is affected by the spell. With 5 charges you are going to need to make 5 attacks with that hand.
Also, putting the spell on Spectral Hand means that is the hand that is affected, instead of your natural weapons. So even if corrosive grasp did affect more than just one hand, as long as you are delivering the attack through Spectral Hand you aren't using your natural attacks.

Now I don't have a copy of Secrets of Sarlona so don't know for sure how that works. However, if the area is anything less than complete darkness (for instance if it only gives shadowy illumination) this would not have the effect of denying your target their DEX to AC. It must be complete darkness, in which case they are treated as blinded unless they have darkvision or some equivalent.

[Maginomicon]

First of all, Corrosive Grasp covers your hand, not all of your hands. Just one. So even if you have four, only one of them is affected by the spell. With 5 charges you are going to need to make 5 attacks with that hand.Spell charges are stored in your entire body, not just one hand (which Thri-kreen don't have, they have claws if you want to be a stickler about that). We know this is the case because among other things if it weren't the case then the Spell Flower spell would be meaningless.


Also, putting the spell on Spectral Hand means that is the hand that is affected, instead of your natural weapons. So even if corrosive grasp did affect more than just one hand, as long as you are delivering the attack through Spectral Hand you aren't using your natural attacks.The Spectral Hand spell says "For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand."

The key word here is "delivered". How do we deliver touch range spells? Melee attacks. How many melee attacks does a Thri-kreen have in a full-attack? Five.


Now I don't have a copy of Secrets of Sarlona so don't know for sure how that works. However, if the area is anything less than complete darkness (for instance if it only gives shadowy illumination) this would not have the effect of denying your target their DEX to AC. It must be complete darkness, in which case they are treated as blinded unless they have darkvision or some equivalent.

No Light: In areas of bright light or shadowy illumination, a darklight can decrease the level of ambient light to total darkness.

[Immabozo]

Blue text is supposed to be sarcasm, might wanna change the color for sake of your arguement

[Maginomicon]

Blue text is supposed to be sarcasm, might wanna change the color for sake of your arguementIs that a rule written somewhere?

In any case, if a rhetorical question isn't tantamount to sarcasm, what color would be? Green for sincerity?

[Spuddles]

Blue text is supposed to be sarcasm, might wanna change the color for sake of your arguement

It's a cute house rule, but that's not actually RAW.

[Psyren]

It's a cute house rule, but that's not actually RAW.

That got a chuckle from me.


How do we deliver touch range spells? Melee attacks.

Right here is the problem with your plan - you can indeed deliver corrosive grasp with natural weapons (in which case you get to full-attack) but you're not doing that - you're trying to deliver it with Spectral Hand, which gives you one attack and one attack only.

[Gem]

Not to mention that, last I checked, the max range on sneak attacks was 30 feet, not 80. That means that, even if you can full attack with a spectral hand (which I also agree, you can't), you'd have to be within 30 feet.

Edit:
To expand, I know that Spectral Hand refers to a "melee touch attack", but it's still explicitly a ranged spell. A melee touch attack delivered by a ranged spell is, to my mind, a ranged attack.

[Maginomicon]

Right here is the problem with your plan - you can indeed deliver corrosive grasp with natural weapons (in which case you get to full-attack) but you're not doing that - you're trying to deliver it with Spectral Hand, which gives you one attack and one attack only.No actually, the spectral hand returns to you immediately after the attack. Not "at the beginning of the next round", but immediately.

[Maginomicon]

To expand, I know that Spectral Hand refers to a "melee touch attack", but it's still explicitly a ranged spell. A melee touch attack delivered by a ranged spell is, to my mind, a ranged attack.
Except it's not a ranged spell. It's a spell that has a range and explicitly uses the rules for melee touch attacks. Specific trumps general.

[pyrese]

Thri-kreen have 5 natural weapons and darkvision. A darklight (magic item, Secrets of Sarlona page 140; 500 gp) creates non-magical lighting conditions (or non-magical darkness conditions) in an 80-ft radius.

I play a thri-kreen, get the sneak attack feature somehow, and buy a darklight.


Cast Spectral Hand (which uses melee attacks not ranged attacks).
Switch the darklight to "no light" mode (creating a zone of non-magical pure darkness).
Cast Corrosive Grasp (Spell Compendium page 53) with five charges on it.


What I want to know is: Can I make a full attack from 80 feet away with Spectral Hand to sneak attack with Corrosive Grasp five times?

(Granted, it'd only work against creatures without darkvision, but still.)

Firstly, yes you can use spectral hand to deliver corrosive grasp. Based on the rules, in complete arcane I think, you can deal precision damage with it since the spell requires an attack roll and deals damage.

However, you cannot make a full attack with it unless you manage to gain an extra standard action for your turn. "all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell" (PHB 175). Casting the spell takes a standard action. From the PHB, you do have the option of moving before delivering your touch attack, but this does not give you any extra attacks. Therefore, your spectral hand is only capable of delivering one touch. Now, going strictly RAW, if you choose to hold the charge (PHB 141), then you can use all the charges on the next round or spread across any number of rounds there after (yes, using the spectral hand to deliver the attacks), as the phrasing here overrides the case on page 175 of discharging the spell in the round that you cast it.

This really renders the extra charges quite useless. The spell might have been better designed as range "personal" with a non-instantaneous duration and the spell simply gave you a corrosive attack for X charges.

As far as delivering precision damage with a spectral hand while you are great than 30 ft from your target: I would lean towards 'yes' on RAW...but it is also a little bit grey and might fall under DM Discretion.

As a side note: The rules for holding a charge and making touch attacks seem very borked. Can anyone straighten this out? Show the paragraph I skipped over?

From a RAI perspective: Round 1, cast spectral hand. Round 2, cast corrosive grasp, deliver 1 charge. Round 3, deliver any remaining charges as your BAB allows. Repeat Round 3 until out of charges. Sneak attack on these within 30 ft? Absolutely. From 80 ft? RAW: Probably so. RAI: Probably not. Talk to your DM.

[Talderas]

From a RAI perspective: Round 1, cast spectral hand. Round 2, cast corrosive grasp, deliver 1 charge. Round 3, deliver any remaining charges as your BAB allows. Repeat Round 3 until out of charges. Sneak attack on these within 30 ft? Absolutely. From 80 ft? RAW: Probably so. RAI: Probably not. Talk to your DM.

A ranged touch attack is still a ranged attack and not a melee attack. Sneak attack specifies that it may be done with ranged attacks (not weapons) up to 30ft. You will not get sneak attack damage on a weapon-like spell (ray or ranged touch) beyond 30ft.

--


What I want to know is: Can I make a full attack from 80 feet away with Spectral Hand to sneak attack with Corrosive Grasp five times?

(Granted, it'd only work against creatures without darkvision, but still.)

The answer is no. Spectral hand lets you deliver a ranged touch attack. Sneak has a limitation of 30ft on all ranged attacks.

[pyrese]

A ranged touch attack is still a ranged attack and not a melee attack. Sneak attack specifies that it may be done with ranged attacks (not weapons) up to 30ft. You will not get sneak attack damage on a weapon-like spell (ray or ranged touch) beyond 30ft.

--



The answer is no. Spectral hand lets you deliver a ranged touch attack. Sneak has a limitation of 30ft on all ranged attacks.

"A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance." - Spectral Hand, SRD

The attack made by Spectral Hand is resolved as a melee touch attack. It allows you to deliver "touch range" attacks at a range. What "touch range" means is attacks with a range of "touch". it does not mean spells with a range of "ranged touch". Because it delivers the attack as a melee touch attack and melee touch attacks do not have any range limitation for sneak attacks, by RAW spectral hand can do precision damage regardless of the caster's distance from the target.

[Talderas]

"A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance." - Spectral Hand, SRD

The attack made by Spectral Hand is resolved as a melee touch attack. It allows you to deliver "touch range" attacks at a range. What "touch range" means is attacks with a range of "touch". it does not mean spells with a range of "ranged touch". Because it delivers the attack as a melee touch attack and melee touch attacks do not have any range limitation for sneak attacks, by RAW spectral hand can do precision damage regardless of the caster's distance from the target.

No it's not.


A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance.

Spectral hand just states you deliver a touch range spell at a distance. It does not say that you are delivering a melee touch attack.

We go to the D&D glossary because what you're delivering with the spectral hand is a touch spell.

Touch Spell: A spell that delivers its effect when the caster touches a target creature or object. Touch spells are delivered to unwilling targets by touch attacks.
Touch Attack: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may either be melee or ranged.
Ranged Touch Attack: A touch attack made at range, as opposed to a melee touch attack. See touch attack.
Melee Touch Attack: A touch attack made in melee, as opposed to a ranged touch attack. See touch attack.

If spectral hand said you deliver a "melee touch attack" to the target, then sneak attack damage would apply at any range. It however only specifies touch spell for which the type of touch attack is determined by the relation of the target to you. Since a target 80ft away is not in melee with you it is not a melee touch attack.

[shadow_archmagi]

Out of curiosity, if Melee Touch Attacks are attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack, does this mean that a Wizard who obtained Sneak Attack could inflict damage by casting any touch spell (say, Plane Shift?) on someone?

I love the idea of a character who takes a sharp jab to the ribs from the Wizard, blacks out, and wakes up on the Astral Plane without most of his blood.

[pyrese]

Out of curiosity, if Melee Touch Attacks are attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack, does this mean that a Wizard who obtained Sneak Attack could inflict damage by casting any touch spell (say, Plane Shift?) on someone?

I love the idea of a character who takes a sharp jab to the ribs from the Wizard, blacks out, and wakes up on the Astral Plane without most of his blood.

The target still needs to be denied their dexterity to AC, which can be accomplished with invisibility, blindness, flatfooted, balancing, ect. The spell also needs to do damage. For example, you can deal sneak attack damage with shocking grasp, but you cannot deal sneak attack damage with ray of enfeeblement.

As an additional note, the sneak attack damage is typed the same as the damage of the spell. Sneak attack damage on shocking grasp is electric damage the same and Sneak attack damage with your short sword is piercing.

[pyrese]

No it's not.



Spectral hand just states you deliver a touch range spell at a distance. It does not say that you are delivering a melee touch attack.

We go to the D&D glossary because what you're delivering with the spectral hand is a touch spell.

Touch Spell: A spell that delivers its effect when the caster touches a target creature or object. Touch spells are delivered to unwilling targets by touch attacks.
Touch Attack: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may either be melee or ranged.
Ranged Touch Attack: A touch attack made at range, as opposed to a melee touch attack. See touch attack.
Melee Touch Attack: A touch attack made in melee, as opposed to a ranged touch attack. See touch attack.

If spectral hand said you deliver a "melee touch attack" to the target, then sneak attack damage would apply at any range. It however only specifies touch spell for which the type of touch attack is determined by the relation of the target to you. Since a target 80ft away is not in melee with you it is not a melee touch attack.

Talderas, I recommend that you review touch spells in the PHB. Please see "Touch spells in combat", page 140 of the PHB for 3.5. I simply say "melee" touch to differentiate from ranged touch attack. Touch attacks default to melee unless specified that it is a ranged touch attack, or a touch attack made at range. Here is the text for spectral hand, from the SRD:


A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if the hand goes beyond the spell range, goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.

The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of at least 22. Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand’s AC as if it were the hand’s Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.

The spectral hand is an entity that makes the attack on your behalf. It uses your attack bonuses to deliver a touch attack, with a +2 bonus on the roll. The spell is NOT emulating the feat "reach spell".

edit: Ack! Sorry for the double post!

[Talderas]

Talderas, I recommend that you review touch spells in the PHB. Please see "Touch spells in combat", page 140 of the PHB for 3.5. I simply say "melee" touch to differentiate from ranged touch attack. Touch attacks default to melee unless specified that it is a ranged touch attack, or a touch attack made at range. Here is the text for spectral hand, from the SRD:

Touch attacks default based on the relationship between you and the target. This is supported by the glossary of terms from the PHB. The section on touch spells only reference that you make a touch attack and it provides some examples of things that are melee (touch with your hand) or ranged touch attacks (a ray attack). Spectral hand is neither your hand nor a ray attack so at that point I point back to the glossary definition for touch attacks in which a melee touch attack is one made in melee and a range is one that is made at range. If spectral hand delivers a touch spell out of melee range then it's a ranged touch attack. If it delivers the touch attack in melee range it's a melee touch attack.


The spectral hand is an entity that makes the attack on your behalf. It uses your attack bonuses to deliver a touch attack, with a +2 bonus on the roll. The spell is NOT emulating the feat "reach spell".

The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack if you make a touch attack in a way in which would be a melee touch attack. If it's done in a way in which it is a ranged touch attack then there is no bonus.

Of course all of that is based on the assumption that the spectral hand is part of you rather than you creating a creature on the battlefield in which you invest the touch spell's charge. Considering that the Spectral Hand has it's own AC, hitpoints, and other statistics there is a very reasonable argument that you get zero sneak attack damage on touch attack made with spectral hand since the spectral hand does not actually have the sneak attack ability and it is the creature making the attack. In which case, since it is a separate creature, it is making a melee touch attack, since it's in melee with the target. Which I would like to point out that your spectral hand provokes and attack of opportunity when it returns to you since it leaves a square threatened by the target it touched.

[pyrese]

The touch spell is delivered by the hand. Attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. Yes it provokes when it returns.

I can see your argument for not getting sneak attack at all, except that the spell implies that the hand is an extension of you. YOU are attacking with the hand with an additional +2 bonus on a melee touch attack. It is therefore not a ranged attack and not subject to the 30 ft limitation on sneak attacks that are also ranged attacks.



The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack if you make a touch attack in a way in which would be a melee touch attack. If it's done in a way in which it is a ranged touch attack then there is no bonus.


There is nothing in the spell description to make a distinction on where the hand is in relation to you. It simply must stay within range of the spell. As much as I'd love to neuter wizards left and right, I find nothing that changes the type of attack from melee to ranged.

[Immabozo]

It's a cute house rule, but that's not actually RAW.

haha, this is great. I always wondered

[killem2]

Necklace of Natural attacks + power storing or spell storing. Shouldn't that do it? And some way to make melee attacks ranged?

[TuggyNE]

Out of curiosity, if Melee Touch Attacks are attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack, does this mean that a Wizard who obtained Sneak Attack could inflict damage by casting any touch spell (say, Plane Shift?) on someone?

Nope, because plane shift doesn't do any damage of its own. Only weaponlike spells (those that have attack rolls and do HP damage, ability damage, ability drain, or negative levels) can be used for sneak attacks or score critical hits.