Challenge: Beating a dragon

[Rabidmuskrat]

I bring a challenge to the wily munchkins and cheesemongers of the GitP forums. How would you slay a dragon using essentially a mundane army?

But first a few rules and guidelins:
- Humans only. No racesploits.
- No PC classes. Yep, NPC classes only. Fighters and such are fine in leadership positions, actually, but I'm trying to steer away from adventurers and their gimmicks.
- Make use of the lowest level units possible.
- As many 'mooks' and other low level cannon fodder as you want to use (within reason).
- Access to whatever MUNDANE crafting your little black heart desires.
- Access to as much gold for MUNDANE equipment as you want (within reason).
- Using as few magical items as you can. If you have to, preferably use scrolls or potions.
- As much prep time as you want (as long as you don't have to prep where the dragon can see you).
- The area this takes place is right outside the dragon's lair in an accessable mountain, so you need to be able to deal with flying.
- The dragon will fight, at least for a while, no matter what you bring. To bring it down, you will have to either kill it quick or have some way to prevent escape. Don't rely on scaring it away with a show of force.
- No chickensplosions.

The dragon in questions is a mature adult Silver Dragon. Forget morality or alignment issues, I simply want to know whether it can be done. The above is an ideal, see how close you can get.

As an example, the best I have been able to come up with is a lot of siege weapons, some of them firing big, dragon sized nets. I thought of having a low level druid cast a high CL Earthbind (http://dndtools.eu/spells/draconomicon--92/earthbind--1037/) from a scroll (to slow the dragon even if it makes the save) but I doubt it would go through spell resist.

As you can see, it's still pretty terrible and badly thought out. Please improve!

Edit: Additional Info/Guidelines

- If the dragon runs away to avoid death, you win, so don't worry about preventing it from escaping.
- If it runs away because you tricked it or made it run away through some kind of fear exploit, you lose.
- The dragon has access to level 4 sorcerer spells and casts with CL 9. Don't forget about that.
- You are allowed to make a dragon NOT have a specific spell if you want, but don't go picking crappy spells for it just to make your job easier.
- You can fight inside the dragon's lair as well if you want to restrict flight. You just restrict the numbers you can bring to bear as well.

[GreenSerpent]

Just saying, but you're already using a PC class (druid) in your given example of how to beat it, which breaks your rules of NPC classes only.

If you're allowing PC classes in "leadership" positions you might as well just allow them completely, as they'll be doing most of the legwork.

[Deophaun]

Archers + volley fire rules from Heroes of Battle = dead dragon with a force that can reasonably assembled by a small kingdom.

[dascarletm]

I will take on this challenge.

However, my first step would be to use a bunch of experts to knowledge (History) and Knowledge (arcana) to find its spells known. (it casts as a 9th level sorc). So that would help in preparation. If there is no way to know spells then...

[Gem]

Archers + volley fire rules from Heroes of Battle = dead dragon with a force that can reasonably assembled by a small kingdom.

I was thinking the same thing. Unfortunately, this particular dragon has DR 10/Magic. You're not getting through that with any medium weapon. Also, Volley Fire usually requires a higher-level officer to coordinate the attack, which makes it hard to stick to "lowest level possible".

[Fouredged Sword]

It has 253 HP and an AC of 29, ok we can do this.

Lets start with our intrepid general. He is a human warrior with the Elite Array, and a 15 dex. He has 3HD. That puts him at +5 to hit. He uses a great crossbow (EWP), and lets say weapon focus for +6.

He deals 1d12 damage with each shot. He could kill the dragon in 39 hits, if he can get past that AC.

So instead we use the volley rules. He is backed by 400ish friends, who also have great crossbows.

They all lay in wait outside the dragons lair and shoot as soon as it comes into sight. The first few shots are aid other attempt to add stacking +2 to hits with the main shot until it can only fail on a 1/

They hit the volley AC on a 1, and there is only 1 attack roll needed, so they make it 95% of the time. It deals 40d12 damage (average 260) on a failed reflex save (DC 15)

The dragon passes that save 90% of the time.

This is why the army stands back, say at maximun range of the great crossbow (quite far) and uses the mundane arrows (Serpent's tongue or something) to expand that range as far as possible. I think you should be able to be about 2000ft away. The dragon gets to the army in three rounds by using run actions and it's fly speed.

Therefore, we need one solid hit within those three rounds. Lets say that 50% of first hits are lethal, and 95% of hits beat the AC, and 10% of hits fail the reflex save.

Math Time

.5*100 = 50
.95*50 = 47.5
.10*47.5 = 4.75


A kill shot happens 4.75% of the time. This means that you need 20 or so shots to have a reasonable chance of killing the dragon before it get the the army. Lets then say 3200 troops split into 8 formations spread over 300 ft between each unit, that gives us 24 attacks before the dragon can reach the army.

I give each unit a one round survival expectancy, so we get another 28 attacks as the dragon slaughters the army.

So, I give the army an even chance of zero casualties, and a very good chance of killing the dragon before total death.

[dascarletm]

I'm thinking volley with ballistae.

[Lateral]

Blister oil bomb. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12138520&postcount=94)

[Gavinfoxx]

Seconding Volley Archery. Also alchemical items...

Some things to do with volley archery:

Default arrow: 1/20 gp (PHB)
Masterwork +6 gp (each arrow costs 6 gp & 1/20 gp) (PHB)
Serpentstongue +2/20 gp (MotW) (Each arrow costs 3/20 gp)
Laenar Wood (Dragon Annual 5) 1 gp+9/20 gp (Each arrow costs 15 sp; can we just say this is the price to make Darkwood arrows? Darkwood is already established as the 'like normal wood but lighter' wood)
Flight Arrow (Dragon 349) +7/20 gp (Each arrow costs 8/20 gp)
Cold Iron +1/20 gp (Each arrow costs 2/20 gp) (PHB/DMG?)
Long Range bow (Dragon Magazine #358)

Use Long Range, Composite Longbows.

Have the leader of the archery troops be optimized for leading the volley archery rules.

The arrows should make a mess of the dragon's day...

[Fouredged Sword]

The problem is killing the dragon in one round, as as soon as it realizes that it is in real mortal danger, it simply greater teleports away / and or wishes itself in Maui with full HP and a margarita the size of a swimming pool.

[Rabidmuskrat]

You are free to know everything about the dragon you want. Spells known, breath weapon type, nesting habits, even what it had for breakfast.

I know my example uses a Druid, but that is why I say it is bad. They aren't rules as much as guidelines, however I would put more weight to not using a PC class than, for example, casualties. As to saying you can use them in leadership positions, I meant you can make use of class features to improve the mooks, not to do most of the legwork themselves.

But to be honest, a group of low level fighters on mounts as 'knights' is perfectly fine, even with some mildly enchanted weapons.

Basically, I don't want a solution that starts as follows:
"You take a lvl 20 Wizard..."

Hmm, lets go with 'Beat a dragon in a low-magic setting'.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd also consider Prodd crossbows throwing alchemical bombs of various sorts at extreme range. Have a HUGE variety of 'debuff' alchemical bombs and contact and gaseous poisons that are focused on lowering the dragon's ability to fit, with as high save DC's as possible. Also get as much aid another bonuses as possible...

[Fouredged Sword]

The odds of my above solution can also be improved by the squad leaders taking ability focus: Volley. This will increase the odds the dragon fails the save by 10%, meaning it fails 20% of the time. This means that after 10 volleys there is a good chance the dragon is dead.

Therefore we can drop half our army and still have good odds. That means we are down to 1600 troops to kill the dragon.

[Rabidmuskrat]

The problem is killing the dragon in one round, as as soon as it realizes that it is in real mortal danger, it simply greater teleports away / and or wishes itself in Maui with full HP and a margarita the size of a swimming pool.

Mature adult silver dragon has CL 9, so only 5th level spells. No wishing. Besides, a dragon who just runs will lose his entire hoard, so they should at least TRY to fight.

Still, I get what you are saying. Teleport/Dimension door and so on is a bit of a problem without access to dimensional anchor. Let's ignore that for now. If you can get the dragon to Teleport/DDoor away and leave its lair unguarded, you have won.

[ShadowFireLance]

Mature Adult Silver Dragon?
Alrighty, I Use one scroll.
Commune.
I then inform Bahumet of what his child is doing, and have him deal with it.
Case closed. :smallcool:

[Rabidmuskrat]

Mature Adult Silver Dragon?
Alrighty, I Use one scroll.
Commune.
I then inform Bahumet of what his child is doing, and have him deal with it.
Case closed. :smallcool:

His child isn't doing anything wrong. If anything, Bahumet might smite you for wanting to kill it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mature Adult Silver Dragon?
Alrighty, I Use one scroll.
Commune.
I then inform Bahumet of what his child is doing, and have him deal with it.
Case closed. :smallcool:

I think you can do that with Message.

[ShadowFireLance]

His child isn't doing anything wrong. If anything, Bahumet might smite you for wanting to kill it.

So, wait, Why are we trying to kill it again? It's not just randomly attacking us?


I think you can do that with Message.
Thank you.

[Gavinfoxx]

So, wait, Why are we trying to kill it again?

Cause you are an evil empire that wants the treasure, duh!

[ShadowFireLance]

Cause you are an evil empire that wants the treasure, duh!

Then, I cunningly disguise myself as a Paragon of good, and point him at my enemy neighbors, and they kill each other while I drink Koolade.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Concentrated archer volleys seem to be the general consensus here. How are you going to penetrate the DR 10/magic? I would say it applies to every arrow individually. I suppose that you could give the archers a magic arrow each, but that seems wasteful if only a fifth (tenth if the dragon saves, and it will) hit.

I can see concentrated volleys from ballistae/catapults/scorpios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)) and so on being effective though, if it is allowed.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Then, I cunningly disguise myself as a Paragon of good, and point him at my enemy neighbors, and they kill each other while I drink Koolade.

Dragon tells you to piss off.

Forget the moral things here, the goal is to see if you can kill the dragon or force it to flee to escape death. Just making it flee (using fear exploits or such) doesn't count.

If you decide you instead want to fight the dragon inside its lair, that's fine too. I was just thinking that being outside gives you access to interesting siege weapons that you wouldn't be able to fit inside its cave, that's all.

[dascarletm]

Concentrated archer volleys seem to be the general consensus here. How are you going to penetrate the DR 10/magic? I would say it applies to every arrow individually. I suppose that you could give the archers a magic arrow each, but that seems wasteful if only a fifth (tenth if the dragon saves, and it will) hit.

I can see concentrated volleys from ballistae/catapults/scorpios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon)) and so on being effective though, if it is allowed.

that is why we use bigger guns.:smallwink:

[Rabidmuskrat]

A lot of you are trying to use RAW to get the dragon dead. That is all well and good and great if you manage, but don't be afraid to think outside the box for interesting solutions that aren't backed up by RAW.

For example, using explosives to collapse the dragon's cave on top of it. Nowhere in RAW can we find the damage necessary to collapse a cave, but if you tell your dm that is what you are doing and you have access to explosives, he should figure something out. Or firing grappling hooks at the dragon.

I like the alchemical option. Any good suggestions for compounds to use?

As for the Blister Bomb, that is specifically designed to kill a land bound Tarrasque with little invisibility detection and less intelligence. May be less effective against a highly intelligent, flying, spellcasting dragon. The lasso's seem promising through. Dragons can't fly with a couple of hundred humans hanging on to them.

Edit: Forgot to mention, for the math to kill the dragon before it gets close, remember that it can still use Dimension Door OFFENSIVELY as well. Your three rounds until the dragon arrives will suddenly shrink to a single round.

[Mando Knight]

With Bluff and Disguise as class skills and the Alternate Form ability, you can't assume the dragon will let you shoot at it for however long it takes to kill it.

Also Invisibility.

Fortunately for those attacking it, the dragon has Sorcerer 9 casting, so it does not yet have 5th level spells. It doesn't really need 5th level spells, though. 3rd level is enough.

You aim, fire a volley of arrows at the massive beast, and it shrugs off the first wave. You prepare a second volley, but suddenly the dragon's gone. You hear the sound of a great wind approaching. Within the next minute, the dragon reappears within the midst of your army. One flank is instantly incinerated, while everyone within 210 feet of the dragon is utterly terrified.

[Lateral]

As for the Blister Bomb, that is specifically designed to kill a land bound Tarrasque with little invisibility detection and less intelligence. May be less effective against a highly intelligent, flying, spellcasting dragon. The lasso's seem promising through. Dragons can't fly with a couple of hundred humans hanging on to them.

All you need is a single hit. If you can get a lasso onto the dragon, then you can hit them with a blister oil bomb.

[Xervous]

After all this time, now I wonder aloud...

why can't you use aid another on ranged attacks?

Was hoping to have squads with one archer surrounded by crossbow using commoners...

[Mando Knight]

You can't get in range to lasso it without being subject to its frightful presence. Or its breath weapon.

[dascarletm]

peasant rail-gun. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun)

[Rabidmuskrat]

Fortunately for those attacking it, the dragon has Sorcerer 9 casting, so it does not yet have 5th level spells.

Forgot about that, thanks for reminding me :smallsmile:


With Bluff and Disguise as class skills and the Alternate Form ability, you can't assume the dragon will let you shoot at it for however long it takes to kill it.

Also Invisibility.

If the dragon runs to avoid death, you win, regardless of the method it uses. Don't worry about it running prematurely, it has something in its lair it wants to defend.


All you need is a single hit. If you can get a lasso onto the dragon, then you can hit them with a blister oil bomb.

So you are going to oil up every lasso wielded by every mook in your army trying to hit a dragon flying ABOVE them? That wont be cheap. Or end well.

Rather put a noose trap over the dragon's lair's exit and hope for the best.

However, it's a bit exploity. Certainly a solution but let's see if we can do better.

[Rabidmuskrat]

You can't get in range to lasso it without being subject to its frightful presence. Or its breath weapon.

Unless it lassos itself with some kind of trap. And you can bargain on at least 5% of your army making the save, so there is that.

[dascarletm]

So you are going to oil up every lasso wielded by every mook in your army trying to hit a dragon flying ABOVE them? That wont be cheap. Or end well.

Rather put a noose trap over the dragon's lair's exit and hope for the best.

However, it's a bit exploity. Certainly a solution but let's see if we can do better.

For every mook with a lasso there is a person waiting to clamp a connection to a rope affixed to the bomb. *See diagram* T=Thrower, C=Clamper, B=Bomb

T T T T
|-|-|-|
C C C C
\ / \ /
-|---|
--\--/
---B

Instead Harpoons. Or harpoons fired from ballistae

[ArqArturo]

I'd just use the Zap Brannigan strategy.

[Rabidmuskrat]

For every mook with a lasso there is a person waiting to clamp a connection to a rope affixed to the bomb. *See diagram* T=Thrower, C=Clamper, B=Bomb

T T T T
|-|-|-|
C C C C
\ / \ /
-|---|
--\--/
---B

Instead Harpoons. Or harpoons fired from ballistae

There isn't an actual bomb with a blister bomb. It just refers to the lasso being layered with about 350 coats of blister oil.

Harpoons fired from ballistae are an idea on their own, however. Perhaps not quite enough, though. Any ideas on how to improve that?

[Mando Knight]

If the dragon runs to avoid death, you win, regardless of the method it uses. Don't worry about it running prematurely, it has something in its lair it wants to defend.

It's not running. It's fighting on its own terms.

Think you've got your sights on the dragon? Too bad, that was really just a Major Image, and the real dragon suddenly dispels its Invisibility to destroy your army.

Baiting the trap? See Jonesy over there, that new recruit? He's rather calm for facing a dragon... Oops, turns out he is the dragon, waiting for you to get all clustered together and not pointing your ballistae at him.

It's half the Justice League in one being... and you're just an army of mooks.

You need to have True Seeing, as well as quite a number of immunities (fear, cold, fire, electricity, etc.) to stop a Mature Adult Silver.

[Rabidmuskrat]

It's not running. It's fighting on its own terms.

Think you've got your sights on the dragon? Too bad, that was really just a Major Image, and the real dragon suddenly dispels its Invisibility to destroy your army.

Baiting the trap? See Jonesy over there, that new recruit? He's rather calm for facing a dragon... Oops, turns out he is the dragon, waiting for you to get all clustered together and not pointing your ballistae at him.

It's half the Justice League in one being... and you're just an army of mooks.

You need to have True Seeing, as well as quite a number of immunities (fear, cold, fire, electricity, etc.) to stop a Mature Adult Silver.

Yes, a dragon COULD certainly do that, but there are more ways to detect a shapechanger than true sight. Bluff may be a class skill, but if your units are tightly knit (you know the dragon can shapechange after all) they would not fall for the 'new recruit' schtick (circumstance penalties, yay!). And if the dragon gets found out, it is now in human form on the ground and will take a little while to get back up in the air.

Besides, even if it suddenly appears in the middle of your army and freezes 500 soldiers, who cares? Just make sure you have enough soldiers to start with. Remember, I don't care about casualties.

Invisibility can potentially be beaten by mud. Just have every soldier throw it in a random direction. Anything that hits the dragon makes it a little more visible.

Every soldier in your army making an attack against an image would get a save. At least 5% should make their saves.

I am trying to overcome half the justice league by just throwing bodies and a little human ingenuity at it. Do you guys think I have a chance?

[dascarletm]

To the harpoons. They would probably deal enough damage to overcome DR. Fire the ballista as a volley. Every harpoon that hits will lodge. Affix the rope to either a large piece of stone (greater than dragon carrying capacity) or if, ground permitting, large poles driven into the ground. The dragon now cannot fly away. Dislodging each harpoon is a full round action, that deals the damage again. They need to make concentration checks to cast, cannot move outside the range, or run/charge (oh also they are at half speed). space battalions apart so that once the dragon exits the lair it cannot move any which way. Then shoot it to death with more harpoons/arrows/balistae

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually, the mud disappears as it hits the dragon, as it becomes an object carried by the dragon.

[dascarletm]

Actually, the mud disappears as it hits the dragon, as it becomes an object carried by the dragon.

Well bags of flour have different rules. Could be ruled that would have similar mechanics. Just give them flour. It is pretty cheap

[Rabidmuskrat]

It seems ballistae do 3d8 damage and have range increments of 120ft. Harpoon impales on a failed DC 10 + damage reflex save.

Combined with concentrated volley rules, I sense potential. As an added bonus, those rules say the 'volley boss' can use his base attack bonus and int bonus for the attack roll, so I'm sensing a few int-built fighters as leadership.

[dascarletm]

It seems ballistae do 3d8 damage and have range increments of 120ft. Harpoon impales on a failed DC 10 + damage reflex save.

Combined with concentrated volley rules, I sense potential. As an added bonus, those rules say the 'volley boss' can use his base attack bonus and int bonus for the attack roll, so I'm sensing a few int-built fighters as leadership.

Yes, and there may be materials that count as magic for DR, I'm not sure though.

[Spuddles]

Get like, I dunno, 10,000 commoners all making ranged touch attacks with black lotus poison on sling stones.

Veto scintillating scales as a spell.

At least 50% should hit, and 5% of them do con damage. Dragon should die within first volley, taking a statistically minimum of 250 con damage.

I suppose we could find the bare minimum number of commoners to do this reliably.

[Fouredged Sword]

DR applies only once to a volley attack, so you can mostly ignore it. I think a massive harpoon volley would be effective, if you can get around the initial DC15 reflex save to avoid the volley. The dragon passes that on a 2 without buffs.

You harpoon it with tons of pointies, then blister bomb lasso it.

[Gem]

DR applies only once to a volley attack, so you can mostly ignore it.
Is this actually RAW? Because it's incredibly counter-intuitive. I know that, for the purposes of feats like block arrow, you treat a volley as multiple individual attacks. That means if you have block arrow, you deflect one arrow out of the volley. You do not deflect the entire volley.

Therefore, shouldn't the volley count as multiple different attacks for the purposes of DR as well?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, since you used a Druid in your example, I'll use a Bard in mine...

DFI shennanigans. Even a level 6 Bard can have a +12 or so to Inspire Courage with Words of Creation. This not only brings up their attack rolls to something that might hit the beastie, but simultaneously increases their Will saves against Fear effects, so they might actually make that save against the Fear Aura.

Then you twist with DFI. Silver dragons are immune to cold, but not to fire, so you don't even need to Draconic Heritage to change the flavor. +12d6 fire and +12 damage per arrow with a small army shooting at him? Yea, you'll still have a lot of misses, but it won't take a lot of hits to drop the beastie. Hell, if you've got an Alphorn, you can inspire a fairly large army. Let's say four hundred level 1 commoner archers. Let's say only 1 in 20 hit. That's still 20 hits. Now let's say each one does minimal damage (12 from DFI, 12 from IC, and 1 from the arrow itself). 20*12 = 240 damage. Mature Adult Silver Dragon has 287 hit points. So, that's close, but not quite. The average damage, however, is more than enough to kill the beastie with one hit.

[ShurikVch]

Mature adult Silver Dragon have Dex 10 and touch AC 8.
Bunch of peasants with bows have decent chance to hit him without buffs.
Dex-damaging contact poison must finish him for good (or bad? :smallbiggrin: )
For example, terinav root make 1d6 initial and 2d6 2ndary Dex damage. Saves are not so important, because if 50 shots hit him at once, expect at least 2 natural "1"s

[Randomguy]

I'm thinking black lotus poison.

Let's start out at a range of 100 feet. We'll need

Units: Level 3 expert, with Shape Soulmeld (mages spectacles), Skill focus (UMD), max ranks in UMD, 2 synergy bonuses, and another incarnum feat so he can have 1 essentia invested in the spectacles and a +2 Cha bonus (their other +2 is in dex) has +7+6+3+2+2+2 or +22 to UMD, so he can auto activate a level 1 or 0 scroll.
Let's have 4 of these guys, 3 with scrolls of Minor Creation (bringing chance of failure to below 5%) and 1 with a scroll of Launch item. (The one with a scroll of launch item has Law Devotion instead of another incarnum feat).

Let's also have 20 level 3 warriors, with Masterwork Double Heavy crossbows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), 14 dex and Law Devotion (and EWP double heavy crossbow). That's a +7 to hit with both attacks, so they hit the dragon's touch AC on anything but a 1, which isn't good enough to do damage but it's enough to deliver a contact poison.

And lastly 20 level 1 experts, to squire for the warriors.

So the action breakdown would go something like this:
1. 3 experts attempt to UMD the scrolls of Minor Creation to temporarily create some Black Lotus extract. At least one of them succeeds. They would have a special trough for it so that all the warriors can reach it.
2. The fourth expert activates his Law Devotion and then the scroll of Launch item. He's got +3 (Law Devotion) +1 (BAB) +2 (Dex) for +6 to hit, meaning he hits touch AC on a 2. The attramen oil hits the dragon, the dragon takes -4 to fort saves, no save.
3. The squires carefully dunk the loaded double crossbows into the poison and then hand them off to the warriors.
4. The 20 warriors fire off 2 arrows each, each with a full round action. 2 arrows miss and 2 warriors (or 1 very unlucky warrior) are probably poisoned and have a chance of dying.
5. The dragon needs to make 38 fortitude saves to avoid constitution damage and has a 20% chance of failing a save, the dragon fails on average 7 saves and takes an average of 73 constitution damage, the dragon is dead.

[dascarletm]

DR applies only once to a volley attack, so you can mostly ignore it. I think a massive harpoon volley would be effective, if you can get around the initial DC15 reflex save to avoid the volley. The dragon passes that on a 2 without buffs.

You harpoon it with tons of pointies, then blister bomb lasso it.

With targeted I think a save only nets half damage

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, if that is true, then it is simply a matter of enough commoners with enough slings. You are looking at 1d6 damage per 5 commoners,

861 or so should do it. The leader can use a potion of wraith strike, invisibility, and true strike to ensure a solid hit.

[Gem]

Well, if that is true, then it is simply a matter of enough commoners with enough slings. You are looking at 1d6 damage per 5 commoners,



That's... not how it works. First, you still need to explain exactly how Volley allows you to ignore DR. Every attack that's part of a volley still counts as an individual attack. That's pretty clearly stated in the relevant rules.


All creatures in the target square take damage as if they were
hit by one-fifth of the arrows fired (1d6 points of damage per
five arrows fired from shortbows, or 1d8 points of damage
per five arrows fired from longbows)

That's a direct citation. "As if they were hit by one fifth of the arrows fired". That means everything that would apply to the arrows as part of a normal attack, also applies to the volley. That means DR applies to every attack individually.

And this doesn't work either:

The leader can use a potion of wraith strike, invisibility, and true strike to ensure a solid hit.

The rules explicitely say that the leader makes a roll using

only his base attack bonus, Intelligence modifier, and any range increment penalty

That means no wraith strike, no invisibility and no true strike.

[angry_bear]

Well, if that is true, then it is simply a matter of enough commoners with enough slings. You are looking at 1d6 damage per 5 commoners,

861 or so should do it. The leader can use a potion of wraith strike, invisibility, and true strike to ensure a solid hit.

And if the dragon casts wind wall?

These are all decent ideas, but all the dragon has to do is stay in it's cave and shut down ranged attacks with a single low level spell. It forces the army to try and engage it inside it's lair, and when they get too close it just blasts them with it's breath weapon.

I think the best bet is to scout every square inch of the mountain for any possible escape routes, and seal them off. Next you blow up the main entrance, and just wait until it starves to death...

I forget if wind wall blocks siege missiles though, that might be enough to deal some damage, but I'm not sure if you can volley with it.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can't do arcing fire with ballista...

*slaps self*

Sorry. Reality getting in my D&D there

[Tvtyrant]

Use slashing arrows with the Vorpal property, have 1,000 archers shoot them at the dragon. You should get a double 20 for a confirmed crit and auto-gank it in a turn.

[Bulhakov]

Have you seen the proposals in this recent thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285635 ?

[dascarletm]

That's... not how it works. First, you still need to explain exactly how Volley allows you to ignore DR. Every attack that's part of a volley still counts as an individual attack. That's pretty clearly stated in the relevant rules.



That's a direct citation. "As if they were hit by one fifth of the arrows fired". That means everything that would apply to the arrows as part of a normal attack, also applies to the volley. That means DR applies to every attack individually.

And this doesn't work either:


The rules explicitely say that the leader makes a roll using


That means no wraith strike, no invisibility and no true strike.

Ballistae. The "Volley" Is more like a targeted broadside of ballistae bolts, (preferably alchemical gold ones if the DM is chill with doing that) to the flying dragon. The OP said the dragon will come out and attack a force marching on it's cave.

Offtopic: If it stays in it's cave then you can do many other things, such as giving it an overdose of drugs that kill you when you OD (inhaled ones)

[Deophaun]

And if the dragon casts wind wall?
And if it does?

If it stays behind the wind wall, it's not attacking. It's not a threat whatever ranged-option you're using.

If the dragon stays in its cave, same thing. It's not ravaging the country side. It's not a problem. Let the dragon stay in its cave and voluntarily remove itself from the kingdom's hair. That qualifies as beating it in my book.

[Spuddles]

You can't do arcing fire with ballista...

*slaps self*

Sorry. Reality getting in my D&D there

You can do arcing fire with any projectile inside a gravitational field. Newton, yo.

[drack]

Well bags of flour have different rules. Could be ruled that would have similar mechanics. Just give them flour. It is pretty cheap

Except on rainy days. :smallwink:

Anywho you seem to get the idea by now. you can use a comp d8 bow with decent strength mod, or enchanted ones, and have lots of commoners shoot lots of arrows at it, saving you knights to defend you. You can send knights until you happen to send a PC adventuring party strong enough (the cheapest rout, but takes time), and back at your castle where you need to be able to kill it for sure if it doesn't appreciate all the potential snacks that could kill it. This is where you have your balista volleys, flaming alchemical mass produced flames, and lots and lots of traps. Alternatively you could send a bunch of commoners with rocks, and use the variant rule by which the first 20 crits, second confirms crit, and third instantly kills them by pure luck hitting them in their weakest point.

[Malroth]

1 Human expert with Wild Talent:psionic minor creation and Skill Focus Craft poison making as well as max ranks in poison making, Bluff and Use magic device. Create 1 cubic feet (about 800 doses) of black lotus poison using your psionic talents slip the poison into a roasted cow, And head alone under a white flag to parley with the dragon after casting Glibness on yourself from a scroll. Tell the Dragon the town wishes to surrender to the dragons might and simply wish time to flee for their lives leaving their valuables behind and that this cow is a gift to placate it. If you're worried about the dragon Rolling a 16+ on its sense motive to notice the ploy, find a sucker who honestly thinks this is the plan and doesn't know the Feast is poisoned and use glibness to convince him to deliver the peace offering.

[dascarletm]

1 Human expert with Wild Talent:psionic minor creation and Skill Focus Craft poison making as well as max ranks in poison making, Bluff and Use magic device. Create 1 cubic feet (about 800 doses) of black lotus poison using your psionic talents slip the poison into a roasted cow, And head alone under a white flag to parley with the dragon after casting Glibness on yourself from a scroll. Tell the Dragon the town wishes to surrender to the dragons might and simply wish time to flee for their lives leaving their valuables behind and that this cow is a gift to placate it. If you're worried about the dragon Rolling a 16+ on its sense motive to notice the ploy, find a sucker who honestly thinks this is the plan and doesn't know the Feast is poisoned and use glibness to convince him to deliver the peace offering.

Detect poison.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Detect poison.

If he thinks to do it. With a high enough Bluff check, he could be entirely convinced that it is a legitimate sacrifice, and he doesn't need to check for poison.

[Malroth]

Plus Sorcorer 9 not Wizard 9, He doesn't likely have access to "Detect random obsucre Threat"

[dascarletm]

If he thinks to do it. With a high enough Bluff check, he could be entirely convinced that it is a legitimate sacrifice, and he doesn't need to check for poison.

True, but it isn't foolproof. 1 cantrip could negate it, but with all the wizard has high int, thus is super paranoid and checks everything, arguments I think the dragon may just play it safe. It depends on the situation however, and I'd say it's a possible solution, though not an end-all.

EDIT:

Plus Sorcorer 9 not Wizard 9, He doesn't likely have access to "Detect random obsucre Threat"

True, that's why the first step i suggested (finding out what spells it has) would be helpful here. (also scrolls.)

[drack]

Plus Sorcorer 9 not Wizard 9, He doesn't likely have access to "Detect random obsucre Threat"
Really? Most paranoid characters always have them and use them all the time. :smallconfused:

[Malroth]

Most Paranoid players are Clerics Druids or Wizards not sorcerers so they CAN have access to every "detect random obscure threat" spell and not be limited by spells known per level

[dascarletm]

Most Paranoid players are Clerics Druids or Wizards not sorcerers so they CAN have access to every "detect random obscure threat" spell and not be limited by spells known per level

Scrolls/Wands/Eternal Wands

[drack]

Most Paranoid players are Clerics Druids or Wizards not sorcerers so they CAN have access to every "detect random obscure threat" spell and not be limited by spells known per level

I've played many a paranoid sorcerer, but I'll admit we digress. :smalltongue:

[Invader]

There's mob rules from phbII, 60 medium creatures make a 30hd mob, that should suffice.

[dascarletm]

Yes, I love harpoons though. En Mass, they are pretty brutal.

[Bulhakov]

I have no idea how these would look in D&D rules though. (many of these I've seen skimming over the thread already)

Fairy tale approach:
- hire champions for half your kingdom and daughter's hand in marriage (likely until a witty shoemaker's apprentice comes along and poisons the dragon with a lamb carcass stuffed with tar and sulfur)

Dwarven approach, a.k.a. mining
- collapse the cave on the dragon
- tunnel into the cave and release a flood/poison gas/flammable liquids/etc. while simultaneously collapsing the entrance

Ranged combat/artillery approach:
- longbowmen/crossbowmen volleys (especially with modified bolts, such as armor-piercing, barbed, poisoned or flaming)
- ballista/catapult/trebuchet salvos (again with some custom ammo, tar seems to hold potential due to its stickiness and flammability, or harpoons)

Kamikaze whaler approach:
- set an ambush or sneak into the cave with a large squad of harpoonmen
- every harpoon is barbed, and tied to a large boulder
- once enough harpoons connect, charge with a second wave of soldiers bent on climbing the dragon and stabbing a weak spot

These could probably be combined into a logical sequence:
After growing tired of the fairy tale approach, you decide to take more practical action. Phase one - flush the dragon out with a poison/fire attack in the cave, hit it with an artillery barrage, continue with archers once he closes range, finally when the dragon is on top of your archers it's ambushed by harpooners lying in wait among them.

[Kane0]

I'd use at least some of these tactics:

- Collapse the cave with alchemical explosives is a good idea, or luring it into a place something big and heavy can be dropped on it. Or a way to poison or cripple it.
- Trained professionals with specially made weapons, eg. powerful crossbows and purpose-built reach weapons, like this guy talks about (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfyU1mOZ1E&list=PLCA860ECD7F894424&index=66). Not great RAW-wise but hey whatever. A big two-handed pick would be good for getting throgh natural AC/DR, but wouldn't be a good reach weapon.
- Mass Ballistae/Catapults in groups at long range.
- Mass Magic Missile, or some other level 1 spell that can be spammed. Is that within the rules? Alternatively, spam true strike, bless, etc on lots of crossbowmen.

[angry_bear]

Most Paranoid players are Clerics Druids or Wizards not sorcerers so they CAN have access to every "detect random obscure threat" spell and not be limited by spells known per level

But, it's a dragon with devastating natural attacks, and a breath weapon already. It can afford defensive spells like that because it's already set for damage output... Not to mention that detect poison is a cantrip.

I still think that the best bet is to just bring the mountain down over it's head, and then dig up it's treasure at a later date.

[drack]

I still think that the best bet is to just bring the mountain down over it's head, and then dig up it's treasure at a later date.

In my experience as a player, when the other players started dueling with cheese, bringing the mountain don on their heads certainly ended it, and the dragon probably is about half as strong as they were. (not bad cheese, just that it was wiling OOC fury :smalltongue:)

[angry_bear]

In my experience as a player, when the other players started dueling with cheese, bringing the mountain don on their heads certainly ended it, and the dragon probably is about half as strong as they were. (not bad cheese, just that it was wiling OOC fury :smalltongue:)

See, my motto is; when in doubt, drop a mountain on it... Some stuff might be able to take the damage, but it's typically incredibly difficult for it to dig it's way out on top of that. lol

[Humble Master]

Anybody mentioned Aboleth Mucus yet?
It's an alchemical item that costs only 20GP a vial. On contact with the stuff you must make a DC 19 Fort save or no be able to breath air for 3 hours (and thus suffocates).
A Mature Adult gets +14 to it's Fort saves so on a 1,2,3 or 4 it fails it's save. That's a 20% chance of not being able to breath air for 3 hours.
Now, based on probability it would only take around 5 applications of Aboleth Mucus to get the dragon to start suffocating. So just get 10 vial of mucus (for insurance), give them to commoners and have them chuck it at the dragon.
So, 200GP for a dead dragon, seems well within the realm of possibility for even a small town. Now if a whole kingdom is willing to bust money to kill this dragon you are easily looking at 100 of vials Aboleth Mucus (which is still only around 2000GP). Sure a single vial of mucus is not a threat but even for a dragon it is difficult to make 100 DC 19 Fort saves.

[drack]

Yup, the trick is that since falling things cap damage as 20d6, you gotta make it multiple chunks of mountain. :smallwink:

[angry_bear]

Yup, the trick is that since falling things cap damage as 20d6, you gotta make it multiple chunks of mountain. :smallwink:

That's a good point... Always forget about the damage cap.

[drack]

yup, but three to six big ones and you have it ay?

[Mithril Leaf]

Part One: Alright, 13 damage average for a dose of Sassone Leaf Residue. An adult Silver Dragon has 253 HP. Thus it will on average take 20 doses to kill one. A human commoner who is middle aged with the standard array has 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha. He takes Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) and Psicrystal Affinity (Artiste). He maxes ranks in Craft (Poisonmaking). His check is a nice +8. This means that with your two chances, you will be able to make a cubic foot of Sassone Leaf Residue. He has an assistant with Master of Poison to apply it to common stones and load them into slings. Since you can create it and apply it, that sets us up for part two.
Part Two: We have to get up to the Dragon. Normally we'd go for Shape Soulmeld, but that needs level 6 to get true flight. Instead, we'll optimize the rest of our army for handle animal so they can raise the nearby Dire Bats. Female Middle Aged human commoners with maxed ranks in Handle Animal and Ride, as well as the feats Animal Affinity and Skill Focus (Handle Animal). We can hit the DC 19 to rear a Dire Bat when taking ten. This gives every commoner a flying mount. They are armed with slings that have common stones coated in Sassone Leaf Residue preloaded. The battle approaches.
Part Three: The fleet can draw the dragon out by any means they desire, in this case they use a largish rock dropped at the entrance of the cave. Alternatively, they could have an emissary enter the cave and offer it something at the entrance. All of the army gets a surprise round against the dragon. He has an AC of 29 and they have a hefty attack bonus of 0, thus they only hit on a natural one. Every commoner independently uses the sling to hurl their stone at the dragon. It will take on average 400 shots to kill the dragon in round one, after rounding. Thus 401 level one commoners can kill an adult Silver Dragon using totally renewable resources. Without any flaws or ambiguous rulings.

Mithril Leaf's Commoner Barrage, for when tricking the dragon to eat your cow (AKA Mithril Leaf's Funky Feast) just doesn't cut it.

[Gem]

Mithril, how are you getting around the Fort Save for the poison? Sassone Leaf Residue has a DC of 16. An adult silver Dragon has a fort save of 18. He only fails on a 1. That means only 1 in 20 applications will deal damage at all. Out of your 400 commoners, one would hit and proc the poison.

Additionally, any materials created with minor creation last for 1 hour/manifester level. Since your manifester level is 1, that means the poison dissipates after an hour. That is a really short timeframe for that kind of operation, especially if you don't have a way of denying the dragon its fort save.

[Humble Master]

The dragon in question is a Mature Adult which has a Fort save of +19 which also slightly changes my storm of Mucus strategy.

Alright, with the Aboleth Mucus there is a 5% chance of it working so we need to throw around 20 or 40 vials for a good chance of killing the dragon.

[avr]

Why use poison which does HP damage? Maybe drow poison would work better since unconsciousness should allow you to do whatever you like with the dragon. Since it fails only on a 1 you'd still need thousands of GP worth of it (@75 GP/dose) for a good chance of course.

If the minor creation for unlimited amounts of poison works, cost isn't an issue of course.

[Mithril Leaf]

Mithril, how are you getting around the Fort Save for the poison? Sassone Leaf Residue has a DC of 16. An adult silver Dragon has a fort save of 18. He only fails on a 1. That means only 1 in 20 applications will deal damage at all. Out of your 400 commoners, one would hit and proc the poison.

Additionally, any materials created with minor creation last for 1 hour/manifester level. Since your manifester level is 1, that means the poison dissipates after an hour. That is a really short timeframe for that kind of operation, especially if you don't have a way of denying the dragon its fort save.

Knew I was forgetting something. Yeah, switch it to Redek Vine Extract for 2d6 Dexterity Damage.

[dspeyer]

1. Discover lair of Great Wyrm Red Dragon or similar creature.

2. Forge treasure map leading to that lair. Describe the treasure as massive and unguarded, but extremely difficult to reach without flying.

3. Place treasure map in caravan the dragon will attack.

4. Profit

Relies on good forgery and bluff checks, but experts can aid eachother. Also requires there being something nastier than the dragon out there, but there generally is.

[Infernalbargain]

People seem to forget that adept is an NPC class and just have them all shoot scorching ray at it.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Okay, plenty of good ideas coming out, I love you guys. I'm going to critique them one at a time, but I apologize if I don't talk about yours SPECIFICALLY, I'm going to group them together as is useful.

1) Weenie Poison Barrage
Have a bunch of mooks use concentrated volley to lob contact poison coated missiles at the dragon. Enough and it goes down, despite saving on everything but a 1.
The original problems with this for me was the cost of obtaining large quantities of poison, relying on mooks to apply the poison (without killing themselves) and the small chance of the dragon suffering secondary effects (where most poisons hit hardest).
I did not think of using minor creation to replicate the poison, so good idea there. Unfortunately, Wild Talent won't be of use, it does not grant a power. So no chance of doing this with a lvl 1 Expert. That still leaves UMD stack, lvl 9 Adept or lvl 1 Psion.
The Poison Use feat is a nice simple way to get the weapons coated in poison at no risk. Best of all, only a few of the mooks need it, they can poison their buddies' weapons as well (for the first strike, anyway).
The last problem can be overcome by picking the right poison, such as Terinav Root (I'm vetoing Dragon Bile because of the nature of the target).
All together, this provides a way for even mook archers to contribute and leverages numbers in an effective way, even if it doesn't disable the dragon outright.

2) Siege Harpoon Volley
Ballistae firing rope-trailing harpoons to prevent the dragon from flying and slow it down for other, more potent siege weapons to hit (something like a heavy ballistae?).
I really like this one. In a straight up fight this should give a significant advantage, even if you can only manage to hook a few harpoons in. Mangonels also have their place as they can deal tons of damage with thrown rocks.
I would probably still have to use concentrated volleys to hit the Dragon's AC, though, which means lots and lots of ballistae. Could be expensive.

3) Lassos (coated with stuff?)
Biggest problem with using lassos is the range. You need to get right up close and personal with the dragon in order to use it, which puts you well within range of its Frightful Presence aura. Expect very few of your lasso troops to stick around to actually use their lassos.
Also, I won't allow silly stacking shenanigens. No 350 layers of blister oil, for example.

4) Spell Ripples
Give two hundred commoners custom crafted command word activated 1-shot [Spell] wands. Profit.
This seems like a very simple method to beat the dragon, but unfortunately, you need to deal with spell resistance. Therefore you need a spell with enough range that it avoids the Frightful Presence and that ignores spell resist. I haven't been able to find one yet.
This is also the reason why Adepts with Scorching Rays won't work: Spell Resistance.

5) Alchemists Fire Bombardment
This has only been vaguely suggested yet, so I'll flesh it out. Alchemists fire (or any fire damage) will deal additional damage to a Silver Dragon due to its vulnerability to fire. The only trick is getting it to the target from outside FP range.
One way to do this is with clustershots of vials thrown by catapults. Another is Launch Item from the Spell Compendium. 200 + 20ft range with enlarge spell, and then it becomes lvl 1, so experts could use cheapie scrolls.
Yes, I know that MoF has a longer ranged version of this spell, it makes no real difference in the end. Effect is the same.

PS: As a reward for your excellent work, I will post the exact reason for this challenge at some point.

[Souju]

send wave after wave of men at it until it fills up on the yummy goodness, then send in one guy with a spear.

[molten_dragon]

I was thinking the same thing. Unfortunately, this particular dragon has DR 10/Magic. You're not getting through that with any medium weapon. Also, Volley Fire usually requires a higher-level officer to coordinate the attack, which makes it hard to stick to "lowest level possible".

You could still do it, but you'd need about 30,000 archers with longbows to kill it in one round. 1 in 400 will critical the thing on average (2 natural 20s in a row) doing an average of 3.5 damage on each critical. You could cut that number in half if each of them had rapid shot (which they might not qualify for depending on their stats)

You could lower that number to a little over 12,500 by instead having your archers use heavy crossbows sized for a large creature. Those would do an average of 8 damage on each critical.

Having that many archers fire at it at once shouldn't be too hard, since they're already at the point where they can only hit on a 20, so range penalties won't make it harder for them to hit the thing. So you can have them clear out to 10 range increments away from the dragon.

You could use less archers too obviously, but then it would take longer to kill it. Although if your troops are properly spread out, the dragon shouldn't be able to kill more than a couple dozen each round probably.

[molten_dragon]

You could still do it, but you'd need about 30,000 archers with longbows to kill it in one round. 1 in 400 will critical the thing on average (2 natural 20s in a row) doing an average of 3.5 damage on each critical. You could cut that number in half if each of them had rapid shot (which they might not qualify for depending on their stats)

You could lower that number to a little over 12,500 by instead having your archers use heavy crossbows sized for a large creature. Those would do an average of 8 damage on each critical.

Having that many archers fire at it at once shouldn't be too hard, since they're already at the point where they can only hit on a 20, so range penalties won't make it harder for them to hit the thing. So you can have them clear out to 10 range increments away from the dragon.

You could use less archers too obviously, but then it would take longer to kill it. Although if your troops are properly spread out, the dragon shouldn't be able to kill more than a couple dozen each round probably.


5) Alchemists Fire Bombardment
This has only been vaguely suggested yet, so I'll flesh it out. Alchemists fire (or any fire damage) will deal additional damage to a Silver Dragon due to its vulnerability to fire. The only trick is getting it to the target from outside FP range.
One way to do this is with clustershots of vials thrown by catapults. Another is Launch Item from the Spell Compendium. 200 + 20ft range with enlarge spell, and then it becomes lvl 1, so experts could use cheapie scrolls.
Yes, I know that MoF has a longer ranged version of this spell, it makes no real difference in the end. Effect is the same.

Just realized we could combine these two ideas.

Use Alchemist's arrows from Arms and Equipment guide. Each arrow deals 1d4 fire damage on a hit. You'd only need a couple thousand archers that way to kill it in one round, since you do damage any time you roll a 20, you don't need 2 20s in a row.

[angry_bear]

Okay, plenty of good ideas coming out, I love you guys. I'm going to critique them one at a time, but I apologize if I don't talk about yours SPECIFICALLY, I'm going to group them together as is useful.

1) Weenie Poison Barrage
Have a bunch of mooks use concentrated volley to lob contact poison coated missiles at the dragon. Enough and it goes down, despite saving on everything but a 1.
The original problems with this for me was the cost of obtaining large quantities of poison, relying on mooks to apply the poison (without killing themselves) and the small chance of the dragon suffering secondary effects (where most poisons hit hardest).
I did not think of using minor creation to replicate the poison, so good idea there. Unfortunately, Wild Talent won't be of use, it does not grant a power. So no chance of doing this with a lvl 1 Expert. That still leaves UMD stack, lvl 9 Adept or lvl 1 Psion.
The Poison Use feat is a nice simple way to get the weapons coated in poison at no risk. Best of all, only a few of the mooks need it, they can poison their buddies' weapons as well (for the first strike, anyway).
The last problem can be overcome by picking the right poison, such as Terinav Root (I'm vetoing Dragon Bile because of the nature of the target).
All together, this provides a way for even mook archers to contribute and leverages numbers in an effective way, even if it doesn't disable the dragon outright.

2) Siege Harpoon Volley
Ballistae firing rope-trailing harpoons to prevent the dragon from flying and slow it down for other, more potent siege weapons to hit (something like a heavy ballistae?).
I really like this one. In a straight up fight this should give a significant advantage, even if you can only manage to hook a few harpoons in. Mangonels also have their place as they can deal tons of damage with thrown rocks.
I would probably still have to use concentrated volleys to hit the Dragon's AC, though, which means lots and lots of ballistae. Could be expensive.

3) Lassos (coated with stuff?)
Biggest problem with using lassos is the range. You need to get right up close and personal with the dragon in order to use it, which puts you well within range of its Frightful Presence aura. Expect very few of your lasso troops to stick around to actually use their lassos.
Also, I won't allow silly stacking shenanigens. No 350 layers of blister oil, for example.

4) Spell Ripples
Give two hundred commoners custom crafted command word activated 1-shot [Spell] wands. Profit.
This seems like a very simple method to beat the dragon, but unfortunately, you need to deal with spell resistance. Therefore you need a spell with enough range that it avoids the Frightful Presence and that ignores spell resist. I haven't been able to find one yet.
This is also the reason why Adepts with Scorching Rays won't work: Spell Resistance.

5) Alchemists Fire Bombardment
This has only been vaguely suggested yet, so I'll flesh it out. Alchemists fire (or any fire damage) will deal additional damage to a Silver Dragon due to its vulnerability to fire. The only trick is getting it to the target from outside FP range.
One way to do this is with clustershots of vials thrown by catapults. Another is Launch Item from the Spell Compendium. 200 + 20ft range with enlarge spell, and then it becomes lvl 1, so experts could use cheapie scrolls.
Yes, I know that MoF has a longer ranged version of this spell, it makes no real difference in the end. Effect is the same.

PS: As a reward for your excellent work, I will post the exact reason for this challenge at some point.



The alchemist fire one could work alright... Fill a bunch of barrels with it, roll it down into it's cave and detonate them. Combine the bringing the mountain down on top of it with blasting it at the same time.

The harpoon one... How does polymorph work with barbed items? Wouldn't it be able to change forms into something where the hooks will just fall out of it?

[Vaz]

Buy in lots and lots of Monstrous Centipede poisons, preferably Colossal. Proceed to load it onto Ballistaebolts (in the event of Wind Wall), and other weapons weaponslike Great Crossbows. As a human, Master of Poisons works. As to getting that poison, outside of buying it, a Cha focused human Druid with Child of Winter and Master of poisons can get it (but that is outside the scope) easily.

Lotus Extract can alternatively be done Wild Talent, but there is a disparity between crafting time and the length of time that the plant is available. However, there is nothing against cultivating your own plant gardens.

I cannot remember if they have it or not, but a Magewright from ECS NPC class with dispel magic can help counterspell wind wall etc, along with see Invisibility.

Perhaps a couple of higher level warriors with Martial Study and Stances.

Alternatively, the cost it would take to advertise for adventurers to kill a dragon.

[dascarletm]

The alchemist fire one could work alright... Fill a bunch of barrels with it, roll it down into it's cave and detonate them. Combine the bringing the mountain down on top of it with blasting it at the same time.

The harpoon one... How does polymorph work with barbed items? Wouldn't it be able to change forms into something where the hooks will just fall out of it?

I think that would end up being DM category, but I see no reason why they wouldn't stay personally.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Buy in lots and lots of Monstrous Centipede poisons, preferably Colossal. Proceed to load it onto Ballistaebolts (in the event of Wind Wall), and other weapons weaponslike Great Crossbows. As a human, Master of Poisons works. As to getting that poison, outside of buying it, a Cha focused human Druid with Child of Winter and Master of poisons can get it (but that is outside the scope) easily.

Screw that - Megapede poison. DC44, damage is 2d6 Con, 1d4 Dexterity drain.


Alternatively, the cost it would take to advertise for adventurers to kill a dragon.

Probably the best choice, but not the point of this thread. Damn.

[Tarqiup Inua]

I was thinking along the lines of thousands of peasants dual-wielding torches... but more realistically:

Cavalry - level 3 warriors with mounted combat, spirited charge, weapon focus (lance), they'd have to attack it at the lair entrance... attack: +2 charge, +3 BAB, +1 being on mount, +2 ability modifier, +2 flanking (ideally), +1 bless from adept, +1 masterwork lance, +1 weapon focus, +4 for prone dragon = +17 atk that's 12+ to hit = 45% hits

Damage is 3d8-4 or 5d8 on critical hit. Average is around 9 for the former and 22 for the latter... so that's 4.34 damage on one charging rider or 86.8 on charge with 20 lancers.

You need to get it down, first, so you use warriors with guisarmes (or another weapon usable for tripping) and improved trip (and therefore combat expertise)

Huge dragon stands on four legs and has 27 strength, that's +20 to strength check to avoid being tripped... so level 1 peasants... they have, say, +1 strength (as per non-elite aray), +1 BAB, +2 for flanking, dragon has touch AC of 8 so they need 4 or more to hit (85% to get to the strength check). Chance of winning the strength check is 1:40 (dragon has +20, warriors only +5)

So about 10 turns after you engage it. Bit more if you want 1st level riders and I am not counting losses.

So relatively small and well equipped and trained army can take dragon down, if they can keep it on the ground. Ceiling might help with that.

[angry_bear]

I was thinking along the lines of thousands of peasants dual-wielding torches... but more realistically:

Cavalry - level 3 warriors with mounted combat, spirited charge, weapon focus (lance), they'd have to attack it at the lair entrance... attack: +2 charge, +3 BAB, +1 being on mount, +2 ability modifier, +2 flanking (ideally), +1 bless from adept, +1 masterwork lance, +1 weapon focus, +4 for prone dragon = +17 atk that's 12+ to hit = 45% hits

Damage is 3d8-4 or 5d8 on critical hit. Average is around 9 for the former and 22 for the latter... so that's 4.34 damage on one charging rider or 86.8 on charge with 20 lancers.

You need to get it down, first, so you use warriors with guisarmes (or another weapon usable for tripping) and improved trip (and therefore combat expertise)

Huge dragon stands on four legs and has 27 strength, that's +20 to strength check to avoid being tripped... so level 1 peasants... they have, say, +1 strength (as per non-elite aray), +1 BAB, +2 for flanking, dragon has touch AC of 8 so they need 4 or more to hit (85% to get to the strength check). Chance of winning the strength check is 1:40 (dragon has +20, warriors only +5)

So about 10 turns after you engage it. Bit more if you want 1st level riders and I am not counting losses.

So relatively small and well equipped and trained army can take dragon down, if they can keep it on the ground. Ceiling might help with that.


How do you overcome it's frightful presence, and beat it on initiative? Could be that the trip squad is already either fleeing, or BBQ'd before they even get their first round of trip attempts in...

[dascarletm]

How do you overcome it's frightful presence, and beat it on initiative? Could be that the trip squad is already either fleeing, or BBQ'd before they even get their first round of trip attempts in...

In this case Popsicled.

[angry_bear]

In this case Popsicled.

Right, force of habit for me. Every time I think dragon I think sweet loot fire. :smalltongue:

[Tarqiup Inua]

Right, force of habit for me. Every time I think dragon I think sweet loot fire. :smalltongue:

Yeah, and don't forget the whirlwind attack, if it bothered to take one. It becomes very expensive recipe for minced meat if he took it.

All I am saying is that it is possible damage-wise.

Frightful presence works about 14 rounds and works only 30 feet far. Enough distance not to be endangered by it before your next turn if you charge.

I am not saying this is ideal, you'd spend a fortune in knights, but realistically none of these plans would work because any dragon that has read the Art of War by good ol' Sun'Tzu will react to any incoming army by flying around them, burning every village nearby and waiting for them to starve to death.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Frightful presence works at a range of 30ft PER AGE CATEGORY. So that's 210ft someone else said. Not sure if that's accurate. Didn't bother to check. Point is, its further than 30 ft.

Wild Talent DOESN'T GIVE YOU A PSIONIC POWER! YOU CAN'T USE IT TO ABUSE PSIONIC MINOR CREATION! The SRD is ridiculously confusing in this regard, but according to the Expanded Psionics Handbook, it gives 2 power points and makes you qualify as a psionic for the purposes of picking feats and gaining levels.

Just realized, alchemists flasks and the equivalent arrows STILL wouldn't do enough damage to bypass the damage reduction. Just because it has vulnerability does not mean its damage reduction won't apply.

A barrel of alchemist fire on the other hand... now that has potential. You can fling them by catapult (mangonel) or attach smaller canisters to the tips of ballista bolts. There are historic references of pots of greek fire (basically alchemists fire) being lobbed by siege engines into cities.

And I agree that if the dragon knows the army is coming, that army is out of luck. For them to even have a chance they at least need a marginal element of surprise.

[Tarqiup Inua]

Frightful presence works at a range of 30ft PER AGE CATEGORY. So that's 210ft someone else said. Not sure if that's accurate. Didn't bother to check. Point is, its further than 30 ft.
I stand corrected...:smallsmile:

[Rabidmuskrat]

Anyway, I said I would tell you guys the reason for this thread.

I'm planning on DM'ing a solo campaign with a twist. Instead of playing an adventurer, you play A DRAGON! You start as a Wyrmling and age up instead of leveling up.

This thread was to get a bit of realistic backstory in place. Your parent needs to be out of the picture, and adventurers are boring. Besides, they won't survive until you are fully grown up unless they are elves (and by then they'll be too powerful). An empire on the other hand...

So, basically, the thing in its lair the dragon will fight to the death to protect is the player, its baby. As I will be the DM, I don't need an infallible strategy, merely a plausable one and I can fiat it into working from there. I'm not even going to do the rolls.

Of course, all of this information will become very relevant later when my player starts going for revenge.

[ShurikVch]

Wild Talent DOESN'T GIVE YOU A PSIONIC POWER! YOU CAN'T USE IT TO ABUSE PSIONIC MINOR CREATION! The SRD is ridiculously confusing in this regard, but according to the Expanded Psionics Handbook, it gives 2 power points and makes you qualify as a psionic for the purposes of picking feats and gaining levels.
Hidden Talent. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/hidden-talent--1387/)


Just realized, alchemists flasks and the equivalent arrows STILL wouldn't do enough damage to bypass the damage reduction. Just because it has vulnerability does not mean its damage reduction won't apply. Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.



4) Spell Ripples
Give two hundred commoners custom crafted command word activated 1-shot [Spell] wands. Profit.
This seems like a very simple method to beat the dragon, but unfortunately, you need to deal with spell resistance. Therefore you need a spell with enough range that it avoids the Frightful Presence and that ignores spell resist. I haven't been able to find one yet. Kelgore's Fire Bolt (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/kelgores-fire-bolt--2948/) with Fell Drain (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-drain--1103/) metamagic.

Also, how far can we go in this challenge? Mooks with templates which are not change race? Grafts and symbionts? Help of higher (or lower :smallwink: ) powers? Mercenaries? Leadership? Skill abuse? (Such as Glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm)-empowered Bluff, fleshraker mob via Handle Animal, or help of whole order of Talons of Tiamat by good diplomacy)

[TuggyNE]

Wild Talent DOESN'T GIVE YOU A PSIONIC POWER! YOU CAN'T USE IT TO ABUSE PSIONIC MINOR CREATION! The SRD is ridiculously confusing in this regard, but according to the Expanded Psionics Handbook, it gives 2 power points and makes you qualify as a psionic for the purposes of picking feats and gaining levels.

That's why you use Hidden Talent instead. Just a minor confusion.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Oh I see. Still, 'intended for use in a high psionics campaign'... Heck, why not? Seems pretty awesome.

[Tvtyrant]

Kelgore's Fire Bolt (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/kelgores-fire-bolt--2948/) with Fell Drain (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-drain--1103/) metamagic.


Because what they really want is an immortal Wight templated dragon that replicates itself by killing :P

[ShurikVch]

Because what they really want is an immortal Wight templated dragon that replicates itself by killing :P Big deal! They can just animate it as zombie. :xykon:
1050 gp for scroll or 625 for onyx

[Vaz]

I said Wild Talent, my bad. However, crafting abuse via Hidden Talent is sketchy as mentioned in my post, which means short of Incantatrix Metamagic Effect (ECL 8(?)), which can make that power last 48 hours (so crafting it within that period is possible), the DM is allowed to say "the black lotus disappears from the water".

Like I said, however, there is no need to actually Hidden Talent, just have a poison garden (Landlord feat for a couple of noble caste characters, if you mechanically want it).

As to all those using melee, how do you counter its wings? Trap it within an area with low ceilings? Why would it go in there? Its Alternate Form can be countered by good password etiquette, but its flight cannot be countered short of low rooves or spells, or having ranged attacks to bring it down.

@Kuul; IIrC the Megapede poison was a typo, the Errata changed it to DC34 to match its HD. I could not remember if it was vermin however and am AFB. If it wasn't it would not be subject to a Child of Winter, mores the pity.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Flight can be countered somewhat effectively by massed ballistae launched harpoon volleys. You need a lot of ballistae, but it is compatible with any other strategy you want.

[Vaz]

Why bother with the melee at all when you can just poison with megapede/monstrous centipede on the ballista bolts?

[Rabidmuskrat]

Damage potential. After getting the dragon down to 0 dex, you still need a way to kill it.

But yeah, I don't suggest trying to close with a Mature Adult with low level units. Ubercharger only really becomes effective when you get high enough level to be able to take a hit and save against Frightful Presence. Until then, its simply too high a level/gold investment for too small a chance of a return. Odds are that dragon is going to be flying.

[The Grue]

peasant rail-gun. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun)

...fails to penetrate the dragon's DR let alone hit its AC at all due to being an improvised thrown weapon?

[Vaz]

Damage potential. After getting the dragon down to 0 dex, you still need a way to kill it.
It is paralyzed. CDG is something possible on helpless characters.

But yeah, I don't suggest trying to close with a Mature Adult with low level units. Ubercharger only really becomes effective when you get high enough level to be able to take a hit and save against Frightful Presence. Until then, its simply too high a level/gold investment for too small a chance of a return. Odds are that dragon is going to be flying.[/QUOTE]

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bard + DFI + Alphorn + massed archers is still an efficient method of dealing with the problem. You only need one low level bard to generate tons of fire damage with Dragonfire Inspiration. Too bad there isn't a way to mass Wraithstrike, but eh... you just have to mass even more archers.

Assuming one in twenty hit, you're looking at 400 or so archers. Less if the Bard does some optimization with his IC numbers.

The Flame Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameArrow.htm) spell can also be used to bypass a Wind Wall, since they are no longer mundane projectiles.

[Rabidmuskrat]

I've been having a look at the volley rules and it seems they are of very little use to this case as I will explain. They give similar or worse results than just relying on 5% hit chance with individual attacks.

Normal Volley: Attack Roll vs AC 15, but missing uses splash rules so we can ignore this due to the size of the archer regiments and the dragon.
This blankets an area of the same size as the archer regiment, hitting every square with 1 arrow. The dragon is Huge, so that's 9 hits. Unfortunately, that just means 9 DC 15 Ref saves to avoid damage. So you are back to 5% hit rate at best.

Concentrated Volley: Attack Roll vs AC 20, which is a pretty tough roll to make in this case due to the lack of bonuses that apply. Best case scenario, 50% chance to hit the roll.
Succeeding the roll makes 20% of arrows hit. DC 15 reflex saving throw for half, so that is an effective hit rate of 10.5% if the dragon makes the save 95% of the time.
Together, that is a hit rate of 0.105*0.5 = 0.0525 = 5.25%, which is essentially the same as individual firing. And that is with a +10 attack bonus on the volley (no idea how to get that). So 5% hit rate at best.

Basic archers have the alternative, since their attacks can't penetrate damage reduction anyway, to hit touch ac instead for 0 damage. This would apply contact poison and give each archer a >50% chance to hit.

The ballistae have no such luck. They need to hit to do damage, but the exact same calculations apply to them. The rules are really bad in this situation. Nowhere does it give ballistae any credit for increased penetration ability against natural armour due to high damage.

[Krobar]

Everybody saying "poison" forget... Silver dragons can cast both sor/wiz and cleric spells as arcane spells. Every silver dragon I've ever run has had neutralize poison on its list.

They're smart. They're ready for people trying to poison them.

I'm not even going to get into Craft Contingent Spell, which most of my dragons also get.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Everybody saying "poison" forget... Silver dragons can cast both sor/wiz and cleric spells as arcane spells. Every silver dragon I've ever run has had neutralize poison on its list.

They're smart. They're ready for people trying to poison them.

I'm not even going to get into Craft Contingent Spell, which most of my dragons also get.

We're talking about killing the dragon with initial damage, not secondary damage. The Dragon never gets a chance to cast Neutralize Poison because by the time it is his turn, he's already dead.

Craft Contingent spell to cast neutralize poison upon being poisoned will work for the first poison... what about the other four hundred something? Once Contingent Spell is activated, it takes an action to reset.

[TuggyNE]

The Flame Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameArrow.htm) spell can also be used to bypass a Wind Wall, since they are no longer mundane projectiles.

I don't see how.
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.)

If it's an arrow or a bolt (which it would be), it misses. If it's some other normal ranged weapon (not mundane, specifically, so magic versions still count) it has a 30% chance to miss. If it's an abnormally large ranged weapon, it's unaffected.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't see how.

If it's an arrow or a bolt (which it would be), it misses. If it's some other normal ranged weapon (not mundane, specifically, so magic versions still count) it has a 30% chance to miss. If it's an abnormally large ranged weapon, it's unaffected.

It turns into a flaming projectile rather than an arrow or bolt. Therefore, it is no longer a normal projectile. It wouldn't affect it any more than it would a Melf's Acid Arrow.

Besides, the Dragon would have to first know about it to cast Wind Wall. I'm talking a one-round KO in the surprise round.

[Endarire]

I'd use poison. Lots and lots of poison. An Adept (an NPC class) can make poison. Eventually, the Dragon will roll a natural 1 and succumb to the poison.

[TuggyNE]

It turns into a flaming projectile rather than an arrow or bolt. Therefore, it is no longer a normal projectile. It wouldn't affect it any more than it would a Melf's Acid Arrow.

I'm not seeing the "rather than", honestly; the ammunition still does its normal bludgeoning/slashing/piercing damage, and it's still fired in the usual way, so it's still whatever it used to be, just with a bonus. It's basically just a spell that adds the Flaming weapon special.
You turn ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, shuriken, and stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. (emphasis added)

[Gwaednerth]

1) get lots of bags of holding
2) get lots of portable holes
3) get lots of catapults
4) fire portable holes and in quick succession bags of holding
5) bags of holding and portable holes (at least some of them) mix
6) stuff happens.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Neutralize Poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Neutralize_Poison) negates the need to save against secondary damage, but it also makes you immune to poison for the duration (10min/level) so it completely screws the poison trick.

On the upside, since the dragon gets Sorc/Wiz casting, it does not have access to this spell :smallbiggrin:

It's too bad the mechanics for high AC are so bad. One would think that if a small ballistae has trouble penetrating a dragon's hide (natural armour) then upsizing it to a large ballistae would give a greater chance to penetrate, right? Nope, same if not less. In fact, the best chance to penetrate comes from reducing the size of the ballistae to that of a crossbow and firing twenty of them at once.

I would really like it to be possible to take down a dragon without relying on poison shenanigens (although it is clearly the most effective). Unfortunately, attack roll mechanics just make it impossible without some homebrew.

What would you guys think about a ranged weapon (arrow/ballistae bolt tip) that can convert an opponent's excess AC into a reduction in damage? Basically as follows, roll attack, total 20. Target has AC 25 (from nat armour and stuff), so I do 5 less damage. Roll damage, total 10. Effective damage (before damage reduction) is 5.
This would allow siege weapons to puncture the tough hides of big monsters by relying on their damage instead of their accuracy.

[Krobar]

Neutralize Poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Neutralize_Poison) negates the need to save against secondary damage, but it also makes you immune to poison for the duration (10min/level) so it completely screws the poison trick.

On the upside, since the dragon gets Sorc/Wiz casting, it does not have access to this spell :smallbiggrin:

It's too bad the mechanics for high AC are so bad. One would think that if a small ballistae has trouble penetrating a dragon's hide (natural armour) then upsizing it to a large ballistae would give a greater chance to penetrate, right? Nope, same if not less. In fact, the best chance to penetrate comes from reducing the size of the ballistae to that of a crossbow and firing twenty of them at once.

I would really like it to be possible to take down a dragon without relying on poison shenanigens (although it is clearly the most effective). Unfortunately, attack roll mechanics just make it impossible without some homebrew.

What would you guys think about a ranged weapon (arrow/ballistae bolt tip) that can convert an opponent's excess AC into a reduction in damage? Basically as follows, roll attack, total 20. Target has AC 25 (from nat armour and stuff), so I do 5 less damage. Roll damage, total 10. Effective damage (before damage reduction) is 5.
This would allow siege weapons to puncture the tough hides of big monsters by relying on their damage instead of their accuracy.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Scroll down to the Silver Dragon Abilities By Age Table, and you'll find the words "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells."

So in fact silver dragons do have access to Neutralize Poison. All they have to do is add it to their spell list in lieu of some other sor/wiz spell.

[Vaz]

Magewright 8 with Planar Touchstone (Catalogues; Inquisition) domain. You are going up against DC20 Caster Level (DC24 if it has Practised Spellcaster); you have a Dispel Check of 12+D20. A couple of them will quickly bring down its defences like Neutralise Poison.

If the rest of the army is mundane, then even just a couple of those patrolling with Detect Magic up will protect against the Dragon sneaking in by illusory means.

And yes, the Magewright is an NPC class; along with taking Magecraft to enhance weapons and armour in general as an NPC army.

[dascarletm]

...fails to penetrate the dragon's DR let alone hit its AC at all due to being an improvised thrown weapon?

the kinetic energy kills.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Neutralize Poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Neutralize_Poison) negates the need to save against secondary damage, but it also makes you immune to poison for the duration (10min/level) so it completely screws the poison trick.10 Min/lvl isn't a very long time. Are you saying the dragon will somehow know he has to cast this before the army shows up? Remember, original scenario states the angry mob attacks the dragon in the cave. Which implies that this attack has if not surprise, then at least the tactical advantage of the aggressor... that being that the defender can only react rather than act to the aggression. Somehow, I don't think casting Neutralize Poison is going to be a likely 'buff' since Dragons have such a high Fort save that they would not consider poison to be a viable threat.

[Nightraiderx]

let's see... if you use shape soulmeld to get lightning gauntlets/ spitting helm that's 1d6 electric/acid damage as a touch/ranged touch action. No lightning/acid resistance or DR. Also any binding that allows fear immunity? charge in and shock it to death! 284 electric/acid damage so about 82 lvl 3 commoners?

Probably wouldn't be effective but it was amusing.

[Krobar]

10 Min/lvl isn't a very long time. Are you saying the dragon will somehow know he has to cast this before the army shows up? Remember, original scenario states the angry mob attacks the dragon in the cave. Which implies that this attack has if not surprise, then at least the tactical advantage of the aggressor... that being that the defender can only react rather than act to the aggression. Somehow, I don't think casting Neutralize Poison is going to be a likely 'buff' since Dragons have such a high Fort save that they would not consider poison to be a viable threat.

That's what Craft Contingent Spell is for.

When attacked with poison, and before the poison actually affects me...neutralize poison.

When attacked with negative energy, and before the negative energy actually affects me...death ward.

When attacked with <energy type>, and before that energy actually affects me, resist energy or protection from energy.

When attacked with ... you see where this is going, right?

See how easy that is for an adult dragon to pull off?

I can go on all day with possible spells a smart dragon would have on contingency (like Heal, Greater Restoration, Teleport or Greater Teleport, Resurrection or True Resurrection... the list goes on and on). Of course an adult silver dragon can't cast many of these yet without class levels too. But they're smart enough to have as many protections as possible on contingency. This is specifically why every dragon I run has Craft Contingent Spell. Except of course those dragons that don't cast spells.

And any dragon worth its salt is going to know that an army of low-level mooks is coming well before it gets in to the cave. Dragons are like that. A silver dragon may very well even assume humanoid form, or cast polymorph to take on an animal form, and spy on the army, listen to them talk, figure out their plans, and handle them accordingly. Its' a bunch of low-level mooks, remember, so they don't have True Seeing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

let's see... if you use shape soulmeld to get lightning gauntlets/ spitting helm that's 1d6 electric/acid damage as a touch/ranged touch action. No lightning/acid resistance or DR. Also any binding that allows fear immunity? charge in and shock it to death! 284 electric/acid damage so about 82 lvl 3 commoners?

Probably wouldn't be effective but it was amusing.

Actually, yes... this could be a way of handling it, since all Soulmeld effects are (Su), any SR would not apply.

Also, I had an amusing idea involving the feat that lets you throw allies, and use-activated Shivering Touch... peasants which had activated Shivering Touch, then were thrown at the dragon. Sure, they might be affected by the fear aura, but that won't really help the dragon much since they can't help but touch the thing.

[Vaz]

A non-Ballista Catapult can target the square that the Dragon is in. Stone Trebuchet's for example deal 10d6 damage. Although it's accuracy is possibly atrocious, enough of them can convince a dragon that coming within range is generally a bad idea.

You need to beat its AC of 32 (outside of Natural Crafting). Assuming Magic Crafting is off for Custom Items of Wraithstrike, you need some way of generating an attack boost of 12 or more. I'm just spitballing some ways here to get a higher attack roll without having to rely on Natural 20's.

If we assume an Elite Array Human Archer Warrior 1, that's going have a Dex of 15, and Str of 14, for a +2 to hit and Damage; so +3 to hit from its base abilities. If Masterwork/Magic Weapon (via Hidden Talent), then that's a +4 to hit; and why not, it's elite array human archer. Weapon Focus for +1, so that's a +5.

I don't want to get into Flaws or Points Buy for NPC's. However, if I did do pts buy as an Archer; that's 18 Str+Dex, with a Composite Bow (+4); I'm hitting with +7.

It has a DR of 10 versus magic. Unless you have some way of generating a magic weapon (Hidden Talent), you're going to need to deal a fair bit of damage, just plinking away with arrows. Hidden Talent makes it a +1 Magical Bow.

You could also bind Naberius through Bind Vestige/Skill Focus Diplomacy (Venerable Elite Array Human X 2 has a Diplo check of +18. Taking 10 gets you to Indifferent which is "Socially expected interaction" - that doesn't involve attacking the army. Trying for higher potentially gets you "Friendly" (Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate").

Get it to stop fighting. Then Order the entire army (287 HP, 5% accuracy, minimum damage 4/arrow, doubled for Crit = 36 arrows hitting, equals 720 arrows shot in one turn).

[Nightraiderx]

Actually, yes... this could be a way of handling it, since all Soulmeld effects are (Su), any SR would not apply.

Also, I had an amusing idea involving the feat that lets you throw allies, and use-activated Shivering Touch... peasants which had activated Shivering Touch, then were thrown at the dragon. Sure, they might be affected by the fear aura, but that won't really help the dragon much since they can't help but touch the thing.

No, I have a better idea, you get commoners to bind a VERY certain sad sad focalor with a cumulative-2 to attacks, saves, ac. you throw them using throw ally and then they activate the ability mid air, it won't matter if the dragon FP them b/c they will have landed close enough to the dragon to weaken it greatly. I would suggest poison but that's been done to death so you can hit it with a sleep spell and use the fire arrows set it on fire and watch her burn, (since she would fail reflex saves)

[Rabidmuskrat]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Scroll down to the Silver Dragon Abilities By Age Table, and you'll find the words "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells."

So in fact silver dragons do have access to Neutralize Poison. All they have to do is add it to their spell list in lieu of some other sor/wiz spell.

I did not see that. However, by RAW, it may be able to cast cleric spells but it can't know them.


A dragon knows and casts
arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level
indicated in its variety description, gaining
bonus spells for a high Charisma
score. Some dragons can also cast spells
from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as
arcane spells.

So it cannot pick cleric spells as its spells known every level. Nowhere does it say the dragon knows spells as a cleric. Your opinions? Shall I submit this to the dysfunctional rules?

[Krobar]

I did not see that. However, by RAW, it may be able to cast cleric spells but it can't know them.



So it cannot pick cleric spells as its spells known every level. Nowhere does it say the dragon knows spells as a cleric. Your opinions? Shall I submit this to the dysfunctional rules?

They cast cleric spells as arcane spells. That means that dragons treat cleric spells as arcane spells. They can learn a cleric spell just like any sor/wiz spell, and it takes up a spot on their list of spells known.

[Vaz]

You're reading it incorrectly. Its method of spellcasting is as a Sorcerer. This means it knows spells, and casts spontaneously, as if it were a Sorcerer. A Sorcerer casts Arcane Spells.


A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I did not see that. However, by RAW, it may be able to cast cleric spells but it can't know them.



So it cannot pick cleric spells as its spells known every level. Nowhere does it say the dragon knows spells as a cleric. Your opinions? Shall I submit this to the dysfunctional rules?

The part in Table "Silver Dragon Abilities by Age" which says:


1. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells.

Having said that, there's a kind of a hitch...

You see, an Adult Silver Dragon only casts as a 7th level Sorcerer. Meaning no 4th level spells.

[Vaz]

Mature Adult, meanwhile, has Sorc 9th's.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mature Adult, meanwhile, has Sorc 9th's.

So you are saying that a creature with a Fort save higher than the DC's of any poison in the game is going to pick Neutralize Poison over, say, Celerity as his sole 4th level spell? Umm... sorry, I'm not buying it.

For that matter... Dimension Door, Detect Scrying, Resilient Sphere, Enervation, Polymorph, and Stone Shape are all more useful to a dragon.

On the Cleric side, it is Planar Ally, Lesser, Restoration, Spell Immunity, Dismissal, and Divination.

With all these choices, is a Dragon really going to bother with Neutralize Poison?

[Rabidmuskrat]

Okay, so it can just pick cleric spells for its usual spell complement? In that case, I pose you the following problem:
You just turned level 9. Pick the two level 4 spells that you know, taking into account that these are your highest level spells and you have a fort save of about +20 or something ridiculous.
Is neutralize poison going to be one of your spells chosen?

As an aside, while the dragon might potentially have access to Neutralize Poison, it does not have access to either contingent spell (lvl 6 spell) or the Craft Contingent Spell feat (CL 11 prereq, dragon has CL 9). So no contingency Neut Poison. Precast or bust.

However, if the dragon has to come out of its lair to fight, I think it taking 30 seconds to prebuff itself to all hell makes sense. What is the army going to do if the dragon takes 30 seconds longer to come out?

Unless we force it out somehow...

[Krobar]

Okay, so it can just pick cleric spells for its usual spell complement? In that case, I pose you the following problem:
You just turned level 9. Pick the two level 4 spells that you know, taking into account that these are your highest level spells and you have a fort save of about +20 or something ridiculous.
Is neutralize poison going to be one of your spells chosen?

As an aside, while the dragon might potentially have access to Neutralize Poison, it does not have access to either contingent spell (lvl 6 spell) or the Craft Contingent Spell feat (CL 11 prereq, dragon has CL 9). So no contingency Neut Poison. Precast or bust.

However, if the dragon has to come out of its lair to fight, I think it taking 30 seconds to prebuff itself to all hell makes sense. What is the army going to do if the dragon takes 30 seconds longer to come out?

Unless we force it out somehow...

I forgot about the CL 11 for Craft Contingent Spell since it's been so long since I ran a dragon this weak. Our game is currently at level 49-51, and our dragons generally have class levels.


That said, this part of what I said earlier still stands: any dragon worth its salt will know about a small army of low-level mooks coming well before it gets there. Silver dragons can change shape into humanoids, and they can also have polymorph on their list (and probably would), which would allow it to assume another form entirely and spy on them. I would choose whatever bird is typically found in the area for polymorph. Further, low level mooks don't have true seeing or anything like that, so the dragon should be able to pull that off pretty easily. It can hang around them, listen to them talk about their plans for a bit, see what kind of gear they've got with them, then fly back to its cave and prepare properly. That is how I would play that dragon at least.

Dragons are smart, powerful and concerned with their own survival. Most DMs don't make them as difficult to defeat as they should be.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Would you know if you played the dragon? Would you spend all your time keeping an eye out for armies of low-level mooks when they are clearly the very least of the threats against you?

Yes, the dragon under DM control has the abilities to infiltrate and completely obliterate a player run army attempting to kill it. However, I'm the DM and I control both parties, all I need is a vaguely plausible way for an army to kill the dragon once it successfully arrives at the dragon's lair without having to resort to dm fiat. That means the army must be able to have at least the EXPECTATION of being able to defeat the dragon before setting out.

Which is why the poison arrows thing doesn't quite work. Yes, it could kill the dragon, unless it happens to cast Neutralize Poison right before you fight. A single well known spell and you're screwed, and who would take out an entire army on the off chance the dragon doesn't have the spell? Unfortunately, due to having a chance of succeeding, its still the best I can come up with short of homebrew!

[Nightraiderx]

The dragon casts as a sorcerer, all the spells on those divine lists count as his spells known, meaning that he could just cast neutralize poison if he has access to 4th level spells. This ALSO means that the dragon has access to wings of cover, and if he is like any true dragon will have blind-senses.

[Krobar]

Would you know if you played the dragon? Would you spend all your time keeping an eye out for armies of low-level mooks when they are clearly the very least of the threats against you?

Yes, the dragon under DM control has the abilities to infiltrate and completely obliterate a player run army attempting to kill it. However, I'm the DM and I control both parties, all I need is a vaguely plausible way for an army to kill the dragon once it successfully arrives at the dragon's lair without having to resort to dm fiat. That means the army must be able to have at least the EXPECTATION of being able to defeat the dragon before setting out.

Which is why the poison arrows thing doesn't quite work. Yes, it could kill the dragon, unless it happens to cast Neutralize Poison right before you fight. A single well known spell and you're screwed, and who would take out an entire army on the off chance the dragon doesn't have the spell? Unfortunately, due to having a chance of succeeding, its still the best I can come up with short of homebrew!

My dragons generally have spy networks all over their area of operations, including the lesser powerful dragons. And they scry a lot too, because they have nothing better to do while lounging on their huge piles of treasure.

Assuming the small army arrives at its lair undetected, AND gets past all its traps, AND assuming they surprise the dragon (all of which would be highly unlikely in my games ... ymmv in other games obviously) ... then really the only suggestion I have is to lure it outside where your archers can fire on it en masse, taking advantage of the volley fire rules, unless the cave is large enough to permit that inside.



The dragon casts as a sorcerer, all the spells on those divine lists count as his spells known, meaning that he could just cast neutralize poison if he has access to 4th level spells. This ALSO means that the dragon has access to wings of cover, and if he is like any true dragon will have blind-senses.

I don't think they get to put all the divine spells on their list of spells known. I think they have to learn them like any other spell, and each one takes a slot. I'm all for powerful dragons, but I think that goes too far, and I think it's beyond the intent and wording of the rules. Again, that's *our* game, and YMMV in other games.

[dascarletm]

Would you know if you played the dragon? Would you spend all your time keeping an eye out for armies of low-level mooks when they are clearly the very least of the threats against you?

Yes, the dragon under DM control has the abilities to infiltrate and completely obliterate a player run army attempting to kill it. However, I'm the DM and I control both parties, all I need is a vaguely plausible way for an army to kill the dragon once it successfully arrives at the dragon's lair without having to resort to dm fiat. That means the army must be able to have at least the EXPECTATION of being able to defeat the dragon before setting out.

Which is why the poison arrows thing doesn't quite work. Yes, it could kill the dragon, unless it happens to cast Neutralize Poison right before you fight. A single well known spell and you're screwed, and who would take out an entire army on the off chance the dragon doesn't have the spell? Unfortunately, due to having a chance of succeeding, its still the best I can come up with short of homebrew!

In that case, I think the idea of harpoon crossbows slowly bogging down and bringing mama to the ground is pretty boss/scary.

[relytdan]

Silver Dragon
Environment: Temperate mountains
Mature adult
huge
287 hp
str 29, dex 10, con 21, int 20, wis 21, cha 20
Base attack/Grapple +25/+42
attack +32
fort +19, ref +14, will +19
AC 32
DR 10/magic
SR 24
breath weapon 14D8 DC(27)
frightful Presence DC(27)

Death of a Silver Dragon
Create many hollow balls capable of being launched into the dragons lair, or even rolled by hand down the dragons lair if needs be.

fill each ball with a combination of all of the below mixtures as non are magical - the dragons gets no SR, it can have its DR10/magic all day long as all the componants are Inhaled - NO DR for Inhaled, for a few there are fort saves , but most do not list a save to be had -

with multiple of these boulders hitting the dragon or even in a close area of the dragon
chances are it will die due to any combination of these.
Acid
Int
Str
Con
Loss of Breath
Paralysed


Serpent Kingdoms pg 151
Ulathlass smoke <Poison>
Inhaled DC 20 initial dmg 3d6 str secondary 3d6 Con 2,100gp

Arms & Equipment Guide pg. 36
Burnt othur fumes <Poison>
Inhaled DC 18 initial dmg 1 Con secondary paralysis 2d6 min 1,500gp

Book of Vile Darkness pg. 43, 44
Mist of Nourn <Poison>
Inhaled, DC 25, initial dmg 1d8 Con, secondary 1d8 Con, 7,000gp

Mushroom Powder
Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to Intelligence and
Charisma for 1 hour. Secondary Effect: 1 point of Strength damage
Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in a 12-hour period, the user takes 2d6 points of damage. Using it more than three times in any 24-hour period deals 4d6 points of damage and paralyzes the user for 2d4 hours.

Races of the Dragon pg 122
Ditherbomb (wyrm) deal 1d6×1d8 points of acid damage in a 15-foot-radius burst
(Reflex DC 15 half). The damage dealt by a ditherbomb ignores the hardness of stone.

Savage Species pg 46
Aboleth Mucus creature inhaling this substance Fortitude save (DC 19)
or lose the ability to breathe air for the next 3 hours

Drow of the Underdark pg 94
Illithid mindscorch <Poison>
Inhaled DC 22 initial dmg 1d6 int secondary 1d6 int 2,100gp

[Rabidmuskrat]

Just had a look at the lvl 4 spell lists for Cleric and Wizard. Frankly, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that any dragon would pick Neutralize Poison considering what its missing out on.

Greater Invisibility
Stoneshape
Dimension Door
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Spell Immunity

Frankly, Neutralize Poison just isn't a priority.

And no. Dragons don't get all the Cleric spells, they still know spells as a Sorcerer does. They just get to pick Cleric spells as well.

I really like the idea of throwing aerosol poisons into the dragon's cave to force it out. Even if it can blow them away with its wings, it will probably be sufficiently pissed off to go outside to see what's going on.

[Nightraiderx]

Ah I see, so it's not saying it's part of the list known it's saying it can learn from those lists, all the "prepare slots" talk sounds more like wizard than a sorcerer picking spells to use all day long. That's what was confusing.

[Vaz]

So you are saying that a creature with a Fort save higher than the DC's of any poison in the game is going to pick Neutralize Poison over, say, Celerity as his sole 4th level spell? Umm... sorry, I'm not buying it.

For that matter... Dimension Door, Detect Scrying, Resilient Sphere, Enervation, Polymorph, and Stone Shape are all more useful to a dragon.

On the Cleric side, it is Planar Ally, Lesser, Restoration, Spell Immunity, Dismissal, and Divination.

With all these choices, is a Dragon really going to bother with Neutralize Poison?

Never said it was optimal. It might have Knowstones or a Drake helm with it however.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Never said it was optimal. It might have Knowstones or a Drake helm with it however.

Since both of those are for arcane spells... not so much.

[Vaz]

They are Arcane Spells, though.

A) the Dragons casts them as Arcane
B) they are on the Bard spell list

[Scow2]

Dwarven approach, a.k.a. mining
- collapse the cave on the dragon
- tunnel into the cave and release a flood/poison gas/flammable liquids/etc. while simultaneously collapsing the entrance

Why would any dwarves want to waste such a valuable dragon? The dwarven method is to trap it in a Wooden Cage Trap (Quality doesn't matter, but it will probably menace with spikes anyway.), and take it to the Animal Tamer to be turned into a valuable fortress defender :smalltongue: )

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They are Arcane Spells, though.

A) the Dragons casts them as Arcane
B) they are on the Bard spell list

That doesn't mean they would necessarily be available. Basically, either a dragon with those spells known or a bard would have to make one. Considering the resources involved, I'm going with 'doubtful at best'.

[Kalmageddon]

Just had a look at the lvl 4 spell lists for Cleric and Wizard. Frankly, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that any dragon would pick Neutralize Poison considering what its missing out on.
.

But a dragon is also a really, really intelligent creature, genius level intellect basically.
He would know that if a mundane army wants to have a chance at taking him down poison is the way to go, after all if he lived to be a Mature Adult he can't be too naive...

[Vaz]

Fair one.

One of the many problems with forums and challenges like this is that as soon as someone comes up with an idea, it can be shot by referencing an obscure spell/sourcebook.

If we assume the Mature Adult to be the one from Draconomicon, Poison is a viable way of doing things, IIRC, it doesn't have neutralize poison on its list.

Conversely, said Dragon might have flown over to a magical city, and bought a specific item of such after changing into its Humanoid form.

[Fyermind]

Since nobody has talked about traps, I guess I might as well.

Whenever I want to do something crazy and have a lot of resources I wonder what I could do with mundane traps.

So the base weapon is a Greatbow. It has been improved by being built to the standards of Mighty +12. It is colossal sized. This means it deals 8d6+12 damage on a successful hit. We want it's bonus to hit to be obscene, and money isn't an issue. That bonus to hit can be brought up to +50. By firing multiple times per activation it can strike 4 times. It can be made automatic reset. Where it shoots and where the trigger is need not be the same place, so let's put the trigger as a lever attached to the trap, and the place it shoots be a specific square relative to the trap at long range.

Let's have this trap be built into a siege tower so it can be moved into position. The tower must be at least 25 feet tall and ten feet deep to accommodate the bow. That isn't a problem.

8d6+12 - 10 from DR comes out to 30 damage on average. At attack bonuses of +50, +45, +40 and +35 all of them hit unless they roll a natural 1. That means an activation will deal on average 30*.95*4 damage or 114 damage. This means that three such siege towers could bring down the beast as could three rounds of fire by one of them.

The cost of the trap is 12,500 gp
3600 for damage boosts (300*12)
400 for size boosts
8000 for the attack bonus ((50-10)*200)
500 for automatic reset

If the base weapon isn't covered in these costs, the cost increases significantly (by 41600).

The rules for making this are found in Dungeonscape and the DMG.

[Rabidmuskrat]

That is just INSANE. However, I think that is a symptom of the completely borked trap costs. As an aside, how would you install such a trap anywhere the dragon would be? As soon as you put it on something mobile like a siege tower it is no longer a trap, but a siege engine and as such is subject to its rules (which allow no cheap chance to hit bonuses). I feel this exploits traps in a similar fashion to create food traps and such.

In the end, I think I'm going to go with a bit of homebrew for this (you still win the challenge though, trap exploity as it is, although technically you can use this to flatten the tarrasque pretty cheaply).

Linky to Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15543491#post15543491)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But a dragon is also a really, really intelligent creature, genius level intellect basically.
He would know that if a mundane army wants to have a chance at taking him down poison is the way to go, after all if he lived to be a Mature Adult he can't be too naive...

And that dragon, being a genius, would also realize that the only way for the mundane army to be able to manage it is if he already monumentally screwed up in the first place, because they'll be running instead of throwing due to his Frightening Presence and his high Fort save will protect him against the few paltry bits that hit him.

Let's see... break the action economy (Celerity), Batman/Tippyverse (Lesser Planar Ally), or protect yourself against a marginal threat which you are already nearly immune to (poison)... hmmm...

[ShurikVch]

Not every poison can be neutralized with Neutralize Poison.

My questions in the end of post #102 still unanswered.

Also, OP not limited technological level. How about dynamite? Up to 10d6 bludgeoning damage (assuming cave just not collapse after explosion)
Or, maybe, Antimatter Gun?

Creative approach: weaponized Green Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi)

[lord_khaine]

the kinetic energy kills.

What engergy is this you speak off?
The staff teleports from peasant to peasant, so its momemtum wont change before the last man i the line, who will try to throw his improvised throwing weapon.


But a dragon is also a really, really intelligent creature, genius level intellect basically.
He would know that if a mundane army wants to have a chance at taking him down poison is the way to go, after all if he lived to be a Mature Adult he can't be too naive...

And he would also know that the biggest threat towards his health would come from adventures and other dragons...

Armies dont kill dragons, Heroes with dragonslaying arrows do :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

And that dragon, being a genius, would also realize that the only way for the mundane army to be able to manage it is if he already monumentally screwed up in the first place, because they'll be running instead of throwing due to his Frightening Presence and his high Fort save will protect him against the few paltry bits that hit him.

Let's see... break the action economy (Celerity), Batman/Tippyverse (Lesser Planar Ally), or protect yourself against a marginal threat which you are already nearly immune to (poison)... hmmm...

ParanoidSmart enough to not locate some means of acquiring Neutralize Poison in some manner?

Tippyverse assumes that the Casters get to where they are by being paranoid. This includes being protected against minor threats.

Use Lesser Planar Ally to summon a Midgard Dwarf (Knowledge; The Planes) and craft a Drake Helm suited to fit your Draconic Form. Hire a Bard (while in Alternate Form), The Bard can then cast Scrying and Neutralize Poison to make the Drake Helm grant you the spells.

Using the rules from the A+EG, you can get Feats for 15-20K on a magic item. Use the Midgard DW to add as many "Extra Slot" Feats as you need (unless you have access to memento magicka); at CL9, without augmentation, that's 1.5 hours, or 16 Castings of Neutralize Poison/day. You're a Sorcerer, and a Mature Adult Dragon between 200 and 400 years old. You have plenty of time to gain the treasure for that; Fly-overs scaring the (evil) populace, and selling the goods to the (good) populace later, if you don't want to go for the whole "selling disassembled ladders" etc, spellcasting services, dragon tributing.

Between the two, you know when an attack is coming, and how they are going to do it. You have your Standard tricks available in combat.

The big question is, how does the Mundane Army get to its lair up in the clouds, countering the Dragons Cloud Walk? How does the army get into the skies without magical crafting?

Lets not get to what might happen should it reach Old. It doesn't need Wind Wall with Control Winds up (Scrying to know when to raise it to Windstorm speeds to make non-siege ranged attacks impossible to make, if he can raise his Caster Level, say Orange Prism Ioun, then he can blow away entire armies, causing between 1d4-4d4 non-lethal damage each turn).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

ParanoidSmart enough to not locate some means of acquiring Neutralize Poison in some manner?

Tippyverse assumes that the Casters get to where they are by being paranoid. This includes being protected against minor threats.

Use Lesser Planar Ally to summon a Midgard Dwarf (Knowledge; The Planes) and craft a Drake Helm suited to fit your Draconic Form. Hire a Bard (while in Alternate Form), The Bard can then cast Scrying and Neutralize Poison to make the Drake Helm grant you the spells.

Using the rules from the A+EG, you can get Feats for 15-20K on a magic item. Use the Midgard DW to add as many "Extra Slot" Feats as you need (unless you have access to memento magicka); at CL9, without augmentation, that's 1.5 hours, or 16 Castings of Neutralize Poison/day. You're a Sorcerer, and a Mature Adult Dragon between 200 and 400 years old. You have plenty of time to gain the treasure for that; Fly-overs scaring the (evil) populace, and selling the goods to the (good) populace later, if you don't want to go for the whole "selling disassembled ladders" etc, spellcasting services, dragon tributing.

Between the two, you know when an attack is coming, and how they are going to do it. You have your Standard tricks available in combat.

The big question is, how does the Mundane Army get to its lair up in the clouds, countering the Dragons Cloud Walk? How does the army get into the skies without magical crafting?

Lets not get to what might happen should it reach Old. It doesn't need Wind Wall with Control Winds up (Scrying to know when to raise it to Windstorm speeds to make non-siege ranged attacks impossible to make, if he can raise his Caster Level, say Orange Prism Ioun, then he can blow away entire armies, causing between 1d4-4d4 non-lethal damage each turn).

All of which can be obviated simply by having Celerity and a means of being immune to Daze. Basically, before the peasant's first attack, you cast Celerity on their turn, then strafe them. Whatever isn't frozen is running in terror. Problem solved.

[ShurikVch]

All of which can be obviated simply by having Celerity and a means of being immune to Daze. Basically, before the peasant's first attack, you cast Celerity on their turn, then strafe them. Whatever isn't frozen is running in terror. Problem solved.
Blah! A you serious? Dragon, after using breath weapon, need d4 turns to restore it. Before the end of those d4 turns it will be already dead.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Sorry ShurikVch, for some reason I didn't see that post (it moves a bit quick sometimes).

The core idea of what I want to do is to beat a dragon with a BROAD power base instead of a DEEP one, meaning lots of low power individuals instead of fewer higher power characters. With that in mind, you can do pretty much whatever you want. I'm just going to rate someone who makes do with less magic- and levelwise a lot higher. Just be aware that if you use diplomatic/bluff shenanigens to recruit powerful allies, I'm going to count the powerful allies as part of your force, not the diplomancer.

A lot of you guys are trying to kill the dragon in one turn. That isn't necessary, casualties are pretty much irrelevant. Consider reducing your number of units/their power and spreading them out more so the dragon can't hit everyone at once and you can do it over a few turns.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Blah! A you serious? Dragon, after using breath weapon, need d4 turns to restore it. Before the end of those d4 turns it will be already dead.

From what? Everything is panicked.

I would either ban Celerity, however, or rule that you aren't dazed, you just can't act until your next turn with no way to negate it. I think that was the original intention of the spell anyway.

[Vaz]

All of which can be obviated simply by having Celerity and a means of being immune to Daze. Basically, before the peasant's first attack, you cast Celerity on their turn, then strafe them. Whatever isn't frozen is running in terror. Problem solved.

True. A Scroll of Contingent Celerity, or Planar Binding a creature with Craft Contingent Spell to get Celerity, along with Favour of the Martyr/Freedom of Movement in a contingency keyed to go off after that. How to get it? Well, you're a Dragon, dealing with Interplanar full casters, likely. Offer your services for a similarly equal task sometime later on in your life as a Great Wyrm Full Dragon.

There's got to be something said for complete paranoia that sounds inherently brilliant. For the dragon of course, the more Tippy the dragon becomes, even with only 4th level spells as a Sorcerer, the harder it becomes for the populace. But there's not much without magical crafting or more powerful spell lists that mundane army can overcome.

[ShurikVch]

But there's not much without magical crafting or more powerful spell lists that mundane army can overcome.
"Sacrificing minions: Is there any problem it can't solve?" :xykon:

[dascarletm]

The staff teleports from peasant to peasant,


I must have missed that rule in the PHB.

Appeal to probability:

Just because a dragon probably would have defenses versus everything doesn't mean it necessarily will.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A lot of you guys are trying to kill the dragon in one turn. That isn't necessary, casualties are pretty much irrelevant. Consider reducing your number of units/their power and spreading them out more so the dragon can't hit everyone at once and you can do it over a few turns.

Problem is, if the peasant brigade doesn't kill the dragon in one turn, they're hosed. Check again the move speed of the dragon and the Frighting Presence abilities. One flyover and any chance of defeating the dragon with any number of mooks is absolutely gone because no one within range is going to be left not running in terror. Panicked means no making attacks.

The only chance the peasants have is a surprise round volley before the Dragon starts flying around. Otherwise they'll be too panicked to put up with much of a fight and the dragon can mop up at leisure.

[dascarletm]

Problem is, if the peasant brigade doesn't kill the dragon in one turn, they're hosed. Check again the move speed of the dragon and the Frighting Presence abilities. One flyover and any chance of defeating the dragon with any number of mooks is absolutely gone because no one within range is going to be left not running in terror. Panicked means no making attacks.

The only chance the peasants have is a surprise round volley before the Dragon starts flying around. Otherwise they'll be too panicked to put up with much of a fight and the dragon can mop up at leisure.

Only if they are set up in a straight line. Dragon maneuverability isn't that great. Mature Adult is: 150ft. Poor.

He can only turn 45 degrees/5ft. traveled, and can only cover 150ft or 300ft if hustling. If the battalions are spread out in tactically advantageous formations it could take multiple rounds to get the dragon to fly overhead.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only if they are set up in a straight line. Dragon maneuverability isn't that great. Mature Adult is: 150ft. Poor.

He can only turn 45 degrees/5ft. traveled, and can only cover 150ft or 300ft if hustling. If the battalions are spread out in tactically advantageous formations it could take multiple rounds to get the dragon to fly overhead.

That's irrelevant. The problem is the 210' radius fear aura. No one is getting close enough to be able to fire on him. Well out of reach of lobbing poison, anyways.

You can have an empty plain of arbitrary size full of an arbitrary number of 1 HD commoners. They still won't be able to affect the dragon, due to anything within range of attacking being afflicted by the Frightful Presence.

[dascarletm]

That's irrelevant. The problem is the 210' radius fear aura. No one is getting close enough to be able to fire on him. Well out of reach of lobbing poison, anyways.

You can have an empty plain of arbitrary size full of an arbitrary number of 1 HD commoners. They still won't be able to affect the dragon, due to anything within range of attacking being afflicted by the Frightful Presence.

I'm thinking your argument may not apply to siege weapon strategies. If you were not intending to apply it to that then you can ignore the rest of this:

Ballistae have a base range of 120ft. x10 for max range is 1200ft.

If the dragon's cave exit is positioned 1200ft from each firing position, just using 3 position each 1200ft. away equally spaced on a 120 degree arc gives a distance of 1200ft. between the outlying positions and the middle, and ~ 2078ft. between the outliers. It'll take the dragon more than 1 turn to dispatch all three positions, and this isn't even an optimized approach.

Math:
150x4=600ft. on run. (750 if run feat applies).=1 turn of flying before in FP range.
The dragon could not fly to one outlier, and get the middle position while en' direct route to the opposite outlier, there is a distance of 600ft. between the most direct route between the two. A deviation from the 2078ft flight must be implemented.
A detour to hit the middle implacement can be established by making a heading resulting in a distance of ~1145ft. to the center. The total distance to travel between the three is then 2290ft. or 3 rounds.

2 rounds of running while flying to emplacement 1. (1200ft)
3 to pass within range of the middle emplacement and reaching the third.
5 rounds total.