Pimp my cleric!

[EliteChoboHax]

Hi guys

Im creating a new character and i've decided on a cleric and checking out the various forums i've come to understand that DMM Persist is the way i wanna go as my DM told me we should "probably go all out to live long". He is a fan of survival horror and high mortality rates ;)

Stats: 14 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 12 INT, 18 WIS, 16 CHA

We start at level 3 and i've chosen Planning and War as my domains where this particular diety will grant me Proficient and Focus with a Longsword

Anyway, he is going to be a human cleric so at level 1 he will have 5 Feats + Extend Spell from Planning Domain. 1 from level 1, 1 from human, 2 from Flaws and a bonus for being unable to spontaneous cast healings as healing spells are severaly limited in his world.

So, what im thinking is Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic and x3 Extra Turning + another Extra Turning at level 3

This should give him 22 Turn Attempts and thus 2 level 1 persisted spells and 1 level 2 - If my math isnt off.

So far im thinking of running Divine Favor, Magic Weapon and Bull's Strength Persisted, but im thinking Owl's Wisdom would be quite good as well to gain bonus spells instead of Bull's Strength?

The sword im using is going to be a Bronzewood longsword for some brambles/spikes usage

So what do you think so far? Could this be a workable character, or do you have any suggestions as to how i might improve upon him to make him even more fierce in combat? It doesnt need to be strictly melee, but spellcasting could be very viable as well if there is some good builds for that

But am i right if i say my attack rolls are +10 and my damage bonus +7? With Divine Favor, Magic Weapon and Bull's Strength all rolling at all times?

[GilesTheCleric]

It seems like you have everything that you really need. You might consider some reserve feats if you think you'll need them, but other than that, the only things that will substantially improve your build are items.

DMM:P costs 7 turns per use, no matter the spell level.

I would look for something other than Magic Weapon; +1 enh is pretty wimpy. You'd be better with +1 to all saves or something, or a bigger bonus. If you really need a +1 weapon, then you can just cast MW when it's necessary.

Your attack bonus is +2 str +0 BAB +1 MW +1 DF +2 BS +1 focus = 7. I'm not sure where the other 3 is from.

Damage is +2 str +2 BS +1 DF +1 MW = 6, unless you're two-handing, in which case it's 8.

Edit: moving the 16 cha to con might be worth it. You'll still have 21 turns, which is enough for 3 DMM:Ps.

[Gem]

Knowlegde Devotion is always worth considering, though if you're not going cloistered cleric, that can be a bit difficult to fuel at times. +1 mod to int gives you 3 skill points/level, that's not exactly fantastic. Still, if you're only going to be fighting a few specific types of monsters (such as, say, undead), that bonus can really help.

What flaws are you taking? Those generally range from "minor annoyance" to "literally free power", so they can be kinda broken.

[EliteChoboHax]

It seems like you have everything that you really need. You might consider some reserve feats if you think you'll need them, but other than that, the only things that will substantially improve your build are items.

DMM:P costs 7 turns per use, no matter the spell level.

I would look for something other than Magic Weapon; +1 enh is pretty wimpy. You'd be better with +1 to all saves or something, or a bigger bonus. If you really need a +1 weapon, then you can just cast MW when it's necessary.

Your attack bonus is +2 str +0 BAB +1 MW +1 DF +2 BS +1 focus = 7. I'm not sure where the other 3 is from.

Damage is +2 str +2 BS +1 DF +1 MW = 6, unless you're two-handing, in which case it's 8.

Edit: moving the 16 cha to con might be worth it. You'll still have 21 turns, which is enough for 3 DMM:Ps.

As my character is level 3, should my BAB be +2 and furthermore improve the Divine Favor from +1 to +2 as well? Giving +10 total?

And i opted for Murky Eyed and Shaky from the Unearthed Arcana, as i will be wielding a crossbow or shotgun-steam weapon as well and i really didnt want to pick flaws that didnt have any effect to get "free feats". These two seem viable enough to have a game impact, but not severe enough to gimp myself too hard where i wish to truely shine - In melee

With that attack bonus, would power attack me a good choice to grab? I mean, there is also fodder to slaughter and they dont all have a huge amount of AC thankfully

[sleepyphoenixx]

If your campaign involves heavy undead you could consider going into Doomguide (F&P). You'll lose 1 feat to Great Fortitude in the beginning but pick up 3 bonus feats over the course of the PrC that you can spend on Extra Turning to fuel DMM.
A build could look like this.


Human, Travel & Fate Domain

1 Cloistered Cleric 1 - Extend Spell, Persistent Spell(B), DMM:Persist(B), Great Fortitude(F),Extra Turning(F)
2 Cloistered Cleric 2
3 Cloistered Cleric 3 - Extra Turning
4 Human Paragon 1
5 Human Paragon 2 - Power Attack(B)
6 Human Paragon 3 - Planar Touchstone (War Domain)
7 Doomguide 1
8 Doomguide 2
9 Doomguide 3 - Holy Warrior, Extra Turning(B)
10 Doomguide 4
11 Doomguide 5
12 Doomguide 6 - Law Devotion, Extra Turning(B)
13 Doomguide 7
14 Doomguide 8
15 Doomguide 9 - Quicken Spell
16 Doomguide 10 - Extra Turning(B)

You'll lose some BAB when you're starting out but it becomes irrelevant anyway once you get & persist divine power.
In exchange you get Knowledge Devotion, more SP and some additional spells that aren't normally on your list.
Human Paragon pushes back your spells by one level but gets you Martial Profiency: Bastard Sword (Two-handed) that you need for Doomguide, a bonus feat and +2 to wisdom. If your GM allows you to qualify with a feat at the level you get it you can skip human paragon as long as you take Planar Touchstone at level 6.

Doomguide gets you 3 x Extra Turning as bonus feats, a bonus to saves and eventual immunity to death effects and energy drain and some minor but useful anti-undead abilities in exchange for reducing your HD to a d6.

You'll have fewer turning attempts to fuel DMM starting out but you will eventually catch up and get to pick up some other feats in the process if you want them or even more Extra Turning.


Edit: 3rd bonus feat comes at DG 10, not 9

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You could also go DMM: Chain Spell and make the whole party last longer, maybe pick up Reach Spell. Chain isn't nearly as expensive as Persist is, and after around 8th level or so, Hours/duration is pretty much all day long, if you have someone with a Rope Trick in the party.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You could also go DMM: Chain Spell and make the whole party last longer, maybe pick up Reach Spell. Chain isn't nearly as expensive as Persist is, and after around 8th level or so, Hours/duration is pretty much all day long, if you have someone with a Rope Trick in the party.

A lot of good cleric buffs are under level 3. A Metamagic Rod of Chain (lesser) costs only 14000gp. DMM:Quicken might be an alternative but DMM: Chain is pretty much a waste of 2 feat slots imo.

[Nightraiderx]

Get fast regen 1 for one of those so you can save on out of combat healing for yourself.

Chain spell is an interesting one if you want to be more party-saving focused, that with ray metamag you can buff the entire party with bull str's and healing spells.

[EliteChoboHax]

Very interesting ideas, i perticularly like the DMM Chain as a concept, but perhaps i should have explained the group setup first

We are only 2 players, my friend who wants to play a mercenary/gunslinger type of fighter and myself, a melee battle cleric. So the chain seems like a great waste as i see it for this small group. The doomguide was a good idea, but im not too keen on losing out on the HD - I know at level 8 it wont matter anymore, but there is a fairly decent chance we wont make it to the next level at all. Survival Horror stuff with no second chances, but thats the rules we agreed upon. So, its "instant gratification" im looking for right now, to bump my survivability with a good offense. They cant hit me when they are dead after all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can drop the Cloistered Cleric in favor of a normal one and put the Human Paragon +2 bonus into Con instead if you're worried about that. It doesn't impact the build at all.

You can also switch DMM:Persist with DMM:Quicken, being more flexible and freeing a feat for another Extra Turning,Wild Cohort for a meatshield or Divine Spell Power.
I have found that DMM:Quicken works well at lower level with Divine Spell Power to boost duration and give your spells a little more oomph.
You'll lose your all-day buffs but can choose on the fly what you need and still melee attack in the same round.
You don't usually have (m)any uses for your swift action at that level anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A lot of good cleric buffs are under level 3. A Metamagic Rod of Chain (lesser) costs only 14000gp. DMM:Quicken might be an alternative but DMM: Chain is pretty much a waste of 2 feat slots imo.

You can use DMM Chain more than three times a day...

Generally, I'm chaining between nine and twelve spells a day. That's going to be a hefty chunk of your WBL there if you get that many.

Also, I like DMM Chaining spells like Mind Blank (from Protection domain), Greater Magic Weapon (4th level for Cleric), and other higher level spells.

When you throw in the 'immune to save or lose' spells like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement... yea, most of your buffs you are chaining are in the 4-6 range, not the 1-3 range, which means you can't use the lesser rod, and price goes up exponentially.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Perhaps "waste of 2 feat slots" was a little harsh.
I'm certainly not saying that DMM:Chain is useless. But unless you have a really big party it's a distant third place compared to DMM:Persist and DMM:Quicken imo (strictly from a power standpoint).

If you're the only optimizer at your table and don't want to overshadow the rest of the party Chain Spell becomes a lot more attractive imo since it keeps PC deaths down and lets you feel useful without stealing the spotlight.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Perhaps "waste of 2 feat slots" was a little harsh.
I'm certainly not saying that DMM:Chain is useless. But unless you have a really big party it's a distant third place compared to DMM:Persist and DMM:Quicken imo (strictly from a power standpoint).Eh, I wouldn't say 'really big party'. It works with your bread-and-butter four man band.


If you're the only optimizer at your table and don't want to overshadow the rest of the party Chain Spell becomes a lot more attractive imo since it keeps PC deaths down and lets you feel useful without stealing the spotlight.Yea, that's kinda why I mentioned it. If it's gonna be a... ahem... 'flustered cluck'... then it's in your best interests to keep the party alive, because then you have more people trying to keep you alive. Even the strongest CoDZilla can get swarmed, after all.

However, probably not so useful in this instance, since there's only one other party member.

Honestly, DruidZilla with Fleshraker + Venomfire + Fleshraker Pet + Share Spells is probably the way to go here. ClericZilla is all well and good, but a DruidZIlla can have a whole army of pets. At that point, it really *would* be efficient to Chain buffs on your disposable minions to significantly improve their capability. Chain Greater Magic Fang on all your summoned minions, and let them wade in. Sure, they're still disposable minions, but now they're disposable minions with effectively magic weapons, which means bypassing DR/magic and hitting incorporeals (albeit at at 50% miss chance, but that's better than nothing).

Meanwhile, you're Entangling, Sleet Storming, and otherwise employing battlefield control, and buffing the hell out of your buddy with things like Barkskin and Stoneskin (which can be cost effective if chaining, because the material cost is only paid once).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Honestly, DruidZilla with Fleshraker + Venomfire + Fleshraker Pet + Share Spells is probably the way to go here. ClericZilla is all well and good, but a DruidZIlla can have a whole army of pets. At that point, it really *would* be efficient to Chain buffs on your disposable minions to significantly improve their capability. Chain Greater Magic Fang on all your summoned minions, and let them wade in. Sure, they're still disposable minions, but now they're disposable minions with effectively magic weapons, which means bypassing DR/magic and hitting incorporeals (albeit at at 50% miss chance, but that's better than nothing).

Meanwhile, you're Entangling, Sleet Storming, and otherwise employing battlefield control, and buffing the hell out of your buddy with things like Barkskin and Stoneskin (which can be cost effective if chaining, because the material cost is only paid once).

If you're going with DruidZilla you can just replace all that with Greenbound Summoning and laughing while your free +8 LA plant monsters tear apart anything that looks like it might be hostile.
If you're that heavily invested into summoning you'd be better off spending your feats on summoning directly.
Get Rapid Spell to summon as a full round action instead of the normal 1 round cast time. SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Ashbound, Rashemi Elemental Summoning... There is no shortage of summoning feats and they have the benefit that they can't be dispelled and don't cost additional spell slots.

[EliteChoboHax]

Definately not going Druidzilla this time around, tho the idea seems interesting for another instance. I'd like to be the good battle cleric that smites evildoers anywhere they go. Druids, at least in my eyes, doesnt fit that bill very well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Definately not going Druidzilla this time around, tho the idea seems interesting for another instance. I'd like to be the good battle cleric that smites evildoers anywhere they go. Druids, at least in my eyes, doesnt fit that bill very well.

Well, most horror games involve eldritch and unnatural abominations which are an affront to Nature, but I can certainly approve of the archetype of Do-Gooder Who Does Good and Goods You Down.

You want something that is almost never going to go down?

Persist Mass Vigor. You've got effective regeneration.

Other spells you might want to persist:

Death Ward. Negative levels suck. This pretty much makes incorporeal undead into a cakewalk. Horror campaigns love pulling stuff like this.

Freedom of Movement. Constriction? Not a problem. Entangle, Solid Fog... whatever tries to get you to stop? Doesn't.

Also, don't underestimate the power of a good Divine Spellpower. Jacking up caster level is useful for getting maximum benefits from a buff early, but really the best uses show up when you hit level 13. Holy Word + Divine Spellpower = Win Button. No save, good luck on the SR when you've jacked your Caster Level up over 40 with turn attempts, and just flat out 'go away'.

[Saintheart]

If you've hit caster level 12, when you're doing the accounting for this character, don't neglect plain old Extend Spell metamagic rather than feeling you need to DMM Persist everything in sight. Once you're at CL 12 or above, an hour/level buff Extended becomes effectively a Persisted spell since in either case the duration is 24 hours, and the cost for an Extended Spell is +1 spell level.

As others have said, there are a number of good clerics buffs that turn up at level 3 or below; you blow a level 2-4 spell slot the day before you set out adventuring, but you might consider it a decent tradeoff.

I've been building one of these guys as an NPC for a RPG recently, and here's some spells I dug up after a fair amount of perusal of the Giant and the Cleric Handbooks I could see. All of these assume CL 12 for the caster and a pret-ty solid attribute raiser (+6 to WIS, in particular). You won't see 6th level cleric spells here mainly because the NPC in question is only a 9th level cleric with Ruby Knight Vindicator and Crusader dips (Practiced Spellcaster raising the CL to 12).

Extended Spells: (Cast day before adventuring)
Magic Vestment: (level 1) +3 enhancement bonus to armour
Magic Vestment: (level 1) +3 enhancement bonus to shield
Greater Magic Weapon: (level 4) +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage (cast on sword).
Greater Magic Weapon (level 4) +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage (cast on shield spikes) <-- This is the Defending shield low-fat cheese: put shield spikes on your shield, make them Defending. Never use 'em in combat, and the enhancement bonus on the shield spike goes to AC.

Spells cast day before adventuring:
Greater Resistance: (Spell Compendium) (24 hour duration) (level 4) +3 resistance bonus to saving throws

Persisted Spells, cast day before adventuring:
Divine Power: (level 4) (4 TUs) BAB = Char Level, +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +12 temp hp.
Shield of Faith: (level 1) (4 TUs) +4 deflection bonus to AC.
Divine Agility (level 5) (Spell Compendium) (4 TUs): +10 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
Righteous Might (level 5) (4 TUs): +4 size bonus to STR, +2 CON size bonus. +2 enhancement bonus to natural armor. DR 6/evil. Size changes to attack and AC: -1 attack bonus to size, -1 size bonus to AC, Size Large, 10 foot reach.
Freedom of Movement (level 4): (4 TUs).
Divine Retaliation (level 3) (PHB II) (4 TU): Floating version of deity's favoured weapon appears. Large size. BAB of 12+8(WIS). Damage of 1d8+12.
Second Divine Retaliation (PHB II) (level 3) (4 TUs). Floating weapon as above appears. Large size. BAB of 12+WIS. Damage of 1d8+12.

Cast ahead of encounter:
Divine Favor: (level 1) (+4 luck bonus to melee attack and melee damage rolls)
Recitation: (Spell Compendium) (level 4): (+3 luck bonuses to saving throws of all allies.)
Protection from Evil (Level 1): +2 deflection bonus to AC, +2 resistance bonus to saves, prevents mental control, hedges out evil summoned creatures
Eagle’s Splendor: (Level 2) +4 to CHA
Divine Retribution (Level 5) (Complete Champion p. 119)
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Level 5) (Persisted using TU, also applies to all character's party) +1 melee attack per round at highest attack bonus; +3 morale bonus to attack and damage.
Mass Conviction (Spell Compendium) (level 3) - Extended by using an Action Point in my case because I've run out of level 4 spell slots) - +4 morale bonus to saving throws of character and everyone in his party.
Footsteps of the Divine (Complete Champion) (Level 3.) (Persisted using TU.) Flight speed 40 feet, Perfect maneuverability.
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (Dragon Magic) (Level 3): +10 to spot checks, immune to blinding or dazzling and thus goodbye to Glitterdust forever.

Virtually all of these bonuses -- bar one odd deflection bonus or so -- stack. But to get this sort of poundage you're (ab)using Nightsticks and Reliquary Holy Symbols, because your TUs come down to 3 + CHA bonus + whatever items or other tricks you can bring to it. To be honest I've been using Action Points to do all this stuff as well, because, well, it's a significant named NPC. You have to pick and choose even with DMM Persist and tune your spell lists carefully.

And in case of a major encounter you're preparing for, it can mean literally an extra day of preparation in game time: the reason I've ID'ed what spells I cast the day before the encounter and the day of the encounter is simply because you don't actually have a vast number of level fourth or fifth spell slots at this point; you have to decide what you want to persist and then shuffle your lists around to compensate. With a DMM Persisted cleric at these levels (12th level) it leaves you with very few spells left to actually cast in combat, though if you're trying to be a combat god you probably don't want to be wasting time wiggling your fingers anyway.

Also, on the awesomeness of summoning: the only tactic you have to watch for when you start pulling summons (or, indeed, for DMs) is that a level one spell cast on your opponents shuts down more or less all of your summoned melee monster pwnage: Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, because summoning turns the spell into a spell of the caster's alignment, i.e. [good] or [evil], and Protection spells keep out summoned creatures of the given alignment without a save. It may not shut out Wall of Thorns and Entangle shenanigans on Greenbound, but don't rely on melee goodness from that quarter.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A slight correction: The descriptor of a summoning spell depends on the alignment of the creature summoned, not that of the caster.
You can't summon creatures that have an alignment opposed to yours.
That means that as long as you're not evil you can overcome PfE pretty easily by summoning a good aligned monster, summoning a monster with a ranged attack or with SLA's.

Also, if you're worried about your enemy using that tactic just prepare Dispel Magic. You should do that anyway.