Ironically destroying the gates

[martianmister]

I. Lirian's gate is destroyed by her own treants.
II. Dorukan's gate is is destroyed by his own self-destruct spell.
III. Soon's gate is almost destroyed by one of his most idealistic paladins, and this event leads to the gate's destruction by one of his order's fallen paladins.

If this theme goes on:

IV. Girard's gate will be destroyed by one of his magical traps, or one of his (undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html)?) family members.
V. Serini's gate will be destroyed by (one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) of?) her monsters.

[Ghost Nappa]

Are you implying MitD is a double-agent really working for Serini or that the dead Chimera has family?

[137beth]

Are you implying MitD is a double-agent really working for Serini or that the dead Chimera has family?

Nope, see, the MitD is Serini! Why else would he always be so happy and nice to people, even when his team-mates hate each other?

[Toy Killer]

I stand by the crack pot theory that Ian Starshine is a Draketooth and he and Haley were saved from Familicide by the anti-magic prison. If Aunt Ivy is a half-sibling to Ian she would be saved as well and Uncle Geoff is a brother-in-law and therefore has no blood relation.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the special place Ian is going IS the windy canyon. Only to discover the family has been killed and is filled with Tarquin's people.

It would also explain why Tarquin specifically recognizes Ian, since his deceased wife was obsessed with finding the Orrin and I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin would find it romantic on his part to ruthlessly destroy the Drakentooths for the pain they caused his wife.

But I may just be crazy...

[rodneyAnonymous]

I stand by the crack pot theory that Ian Starshine is a Draketooth and he and Haley were saved from Familicide by the anti-magic prison.

If that were true, Ian would be protected but not Haley, because she would be killed by the first "step" of familicide. Right?

[Forrestfire]

If that were true, Ian would be protected but not Haley, because she would be killed by the first "step" of familicide. Right?

It would have to go through Ian, no?

[rodneyAnonymous]

It would have to go through Ian, no?

No. "Step 2" is the one that goes through people and could potentially have a break in the chain that protects some relatives. If Ian were a Draketooth (and therefore a direct descendant of the ABD), then Haley would be too.

[Spanish_Paladin]

It'd be cool if the MitD Is Serini :smallsmile:

[B. Dandelion]

Again with the ironic pattern thread? There's another one still up that hasn't even dropped off the first page yet.

My only problem with the theory is Dorukan's Gate. A Gate being destroyed by the thing assigned to protect it is ironic, but a Gate being destroyed by the thing designed to destroy it (i.e. the self-destruct button) seems more like the exactly foreseeable outcome. You could argue there is irony associated with the destruction of the Gate (it held up for months under Xykon but only minutes for Elan), but that makes the pattern thing more of a stretch because a number of situations can be construed to contain irony; stringing a bunch of them together does not make for a particularly convincing pattern.

Although I think you can argue all the Gates thus far have been brought down due to the flaws of their assigned protectors, if not necessarily "ironically".

[Toy Killer]

No. "Step 2" is the one that goes through people and could potentially have a break in the chain that protects some relatives. If Ian were a Draketooth (and therefore a direct descendant of the ABD), then Haley would be too.

I guess my assumption was that if Ian were protected via Anti-Magic, his descendants would be as well.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I guess my assumption was that if Ian were protected via Anti-Magic, his descendants would be as well.

No. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12856280#post12856280) The "killing bolt" in the first step wouldn't go from Ian to Haley, it would go from the ABD to Haley.

The second step is the one that could potentially break a "death chain", because anyone directly related to someone killed in the first step is killed by the second step, and an AMF might protect Ian from being killed by the first step.

[Vinsfeld]

V. Serini's gate will be destroyed by (one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) of?) her monsters.

I knew Trigak would come back eventually. :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

Again with the ironic pattern thread? There's another one still up that hasn't even dropped off the first page yet.

My only problem with the theory is Dorukan's Gate. A Gate being destroyed by the thing assigned to protect it is ironic, but a Gate being destroyed by the thing designed to destroy it (i.e. the self-destruct button) seems more like the exactly foreseeable outcome. You could argue there is irony associated with the destruction of the Gate (it held up for months under Xykon but only minutes for Elan), but that makes the pattern thing more of a stretch because a number of situations can be construed to contain irony; stringing a bunch of them together does not make for a particularly convincing pattern.

Although I think you can argue all the Gates thus far have been brought down due to the flaws of their assigned protectors, if not necessarily "ironically".

You could argue that Girard's protection largely involved faith in the Good alignment, only for the Gate to be brought down by not only a Good character, but one of the most goody-two-shoes characters in the comic, just to provide a dramatic escape.

[B. Dandelion]

You could argue that Girard's protection largely involved faith in the Good alignment, only for the Gate to be brought down by not only a Good character, but one of the most goody-two-shoes characters in the comic, just to provide a dramatic escape.

To reiterate:


You could argue there is irony associated with the destruction of the Gate (it held up for months under Xykon but only minutes for Elan), but that makes the pattern thing more of a stretch because a number of situations can be construed to contain irony; stringing a bunch of them together does not make for a particularly convincing pattern.

You can argue that the fall of Dorukan's Gate was ironic but it is harder to argue it went down in an ironic pattern shared with the other Gates. You wind up comparing apples and oranges. Soon's Gate was destroyed by what was supposed to protect it. Dorukan's Gate had an obvious flaw. It's not quite the same thing.

[martianmister]

Are you implying MitD is a double-agent really working for Serini or that the dead Chimera has family?

No, MitD is somehow escaped from Serini's dungeon.

[Fish]

I think there is an ironic pattern in the Gates, but not in this fashion.

Dorukan protected his gate with raw arcane power, and he was bested by raw arcane power.

Lirian protected her Gate with the forces of Life and was beaten by an undead.

Soon protected his by the honor of paladins, but was undone by a paladin with a warped sense of honor.

Girard protected his Gate through paranoia, deception, lies, and misdirection. It seems probable that it'll all fall apart because he trusted Serini with the coordinates.

I'd explore down that route, myself: emotional themes, symbolic themes, not specific methods.

[murph04]

Nope, see, the MitD is Serini! Why else would he always be so happy and nice to people, even when his team-mates hate each other?

.…Stop making sense!

[gallagher]

As for Haley not being targeted by familicide, it may be part of not being able to be located because she was still under the effects of Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

[rodneyAnonymous]

As for Haley not being targeted by familicide, it may be part of not being able to be located because she was still under the effects of Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

So Ian and Haley are closely related to Girard because they have red hair, but they were not killed by familicide, because one was protected by an anti-magic field and the other was protected by cloister. Seems like a stretch.

[gallagher]

So Ian and Haley are closely related to Girard because they have red hair, but they were not killed by familicide, because one was protected by an anti-magic field and the other was protected by cloister. Seems like a stretch.

I dont buy into the Haley Draketooth plot twist. But if, in theory, Ian is a Draketooth and survived because he is in an antimagic field, then it isnt a bigger stretch from there to say that an epic abduration that prevents you from being located for a minimum 21 weeks could also protect Haley

[goldendragon]

It'd be cool if the MitD Is Serini :smallsmile:
It'd be rather unlikely though. How could she cause an earthquake by stamping her feet or teleport people across great distance? And also how come it was implied in Start of Darkness that Xykon and Redcloak saw her? I know the earthquake and the teleport spell could be caused by magic items, but I think it would be relatively hard faking being a terrifying monster to a clever cleric who could cast True Seeing.

[137beth]

I dont buy into the Haley Draketooth plot twist. But if, in theory, Ian is a Draketooth and survived because he is in an antimagic field, then it isnt a bigger stretch from there to say that an epic abduration that prevents you from being located for a minimum 21 weeks could also protect Haley

It is, however, a big stretch to say that an anti-magic field could block familicide. Even if familicide wasn't specifically crafted to bypass most defenses (which it probably was), anti-magic fields do not automatically block epic spells--the AMF makes a dispel check of 1d20+20 against 11+epic caster's level. If Haerta were level 30 or higher (quite plausible), then AMF would have no effect against any epic spell she cast. Even if she was under level 30, familicide would probably include clauses to bypass most standard defenses.

[Rakoa]

It is, however, a big stretch to say that an anti-magic field could block familicide. Even if familicide wasn't specifically crafted to bypass most defenses (which it probably was), anti-magic fields do not automatically block epic spells--the AMF makes a dispel check of 1d20+20 against 11+epic caster's level. If Haerta were level 30 or higher (quite plausible), then AMF would have no effect against any epic spell she cast. Even if she was under level 30, familicide would probably include clauses to bypass most standard defenses.

Why doesn't an Antimagic Field automatically block epic spells?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

.…Stop making sense!

Gadji beri bimba glandridi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5JCAQAcEIk)

[rodneyAnonymous]

Why doesn't an Antimagic Field automatically block epic spells?

It just doesn't. That is how that magic interacts according to the rules.


"Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally. " (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm)

[Rakoa]

It just doesn't. That is how that magic interacts according to the rules.

I assumed it was an Epic rule of some sort. Given the Giant's typical treatment of Epic spellcasting rules, I wouldn't use this as evidence that Familicide wasn't prevented by the Antimagic Field.

[veti]

No, MitD is somehow escaped from Serini's dungeon.

[Scene: Kraagor's Gate. Team Evil has navigated the dungeon, slain large monsters by the score, and Xykon has reanimated several of them. Finally they stand before the boss monster of Serini's dungeon: Yog-Sothoth ("the key and guardian of the gate").]

:mitd: "Daddy!"

[Vinsfeld]

[Scene: Kraagor's Gate. Team Evil has navigated the dungeon, slain large monsters by the score, and Xykon has reanimated several of them. Finally they stand before the boss monster of Serini's dungeon: Yog-Sothoth ("the key and guardian of the gate").]

:mitd: "Daddy!"

And then we would finally know what the MITD is.

[Rakoa]

And then we would finally know what the MITD is.

Which is to say...Wilbur?

[DeadMG]

To reiterate:

You can argue that the fall of Dorukan's Gate was ironic but it is harder to argue it went down in an ironic pattern shared with the other Gates. You wind up comparing apples and oranges. Soon's Gate was destroyed by what was supposed to protect it. Dorukan's Gate had an obvious flaw. It's not quite the same thing.

I disagree. The only reason Elan could push the self-destruct rune is because Dorukan died to Xykon. Obviously if Dorukan himself was still around, there's no way the gate would have fallen to Elan. The key failing in Dorukan's gate was that Dorukan himself was beaten. Any irony of Dorukan being bested by an arcane caster is the same as the irony of Dorukan's gate being destroyed.

[B. Dandelion]

The key failing in Dorukan's gate was that Dorukan himself was beaten. Any irony of Dorukan being bested by an arcane caster is the same as the irony of Dorukan's gate being destroyed.

You're saying "well it's ironic the way Dorukan was beaten and that led to his Gate being destroyed", but that's changing the definition of what the pattern was when we were establishing the connection between Lirian and Soon's Gates. You can argue it's ironic that Lirian and Soon's Gates were destroyed by the things that were intended to protect them. You can also argue that Dorukan and Lirian were both defeated in an ironic fashion. But you run into trouble trying to make a pattern between Dorukan and Soon. Dorukan's Gate wasn't destroyed by what was intended to protect it and Soon wasn't actually defeated at all.

So that's why I'm saying it looks like comparing apples and oranges -- the only "pattern" that's been argued is that "there has been some irony associated with the fall of all the Gates". Which simply doesn't strike me as particularly meaningful. It's ironic that Nale meant to kill Haley and wound up giving her her voice back. It's ironic that Vaarsuvius meant to protect her family and wound up endangering the entire planet. It's ironic that by attempting to thwart Belkar's prophecy, the Oracle ensured it (ditto Durkon and his homeland). It's ironic that Azure City created their own worst nemesis. Lots of things are ironic. That doesn't mean all things which contain irony are part of a pattern.

I tend to look at it as "pattern" of all the Scribbles trusting too much in one thing and one thing only. Dorukan trusted in magic, Lirian in nature, Soon in honor, Girard in family. None of those things alone were foolproof. Xykon had a bigger magical hammer, Redcloak started a fire, a fallen paladin went nuts, and Familicide utterly devastated Girard's forces. This isn't necessarily ironic -- Soon's own paladin turned against his Gate, but Girard's family didn't similarly "betray" him. Nonetheless they all had weak points that other characters had the necessary tools to exploit.

[137beth]

You're saying "well it's ironic the way Dorukan was beaten and that led to his Gate being destroyed", but that's changing the definition of what the pattern was when we were establishing the connection between Lirian and Soon's Gates. You can argue it's ironic that Lirian and Soon's Gates were destroyed by the things that were intended to protect them. You can also argue that Dorukan and Lirian were both defeated in an ironic fashion. But you run into trouble trying to make a pattern between Dorukan and Soon. Dorukan's Gate wasn't destroyed by what was intended to protect it and Soon wasn't actually defeated at all.
Well...how about this: (warning: I don't actually think this is a pattern, do not accuse me of thinking this is a pattern, it is entirely sarcastic/whatever):
Both Soon and Dorukan were defeated by someone they trusted. Soon was defeated by Miko, Dorukan was defeated by Lirian....
The "pattern" breaks for Lirian, though, she wasn't defeated by anyone she trusted, she was defeated by Xykon.