[SWSE] Stealth based character advice

[tsumechk]

I recently joined a Saga edition campaign, and I want to play a stealth based character. The thing is though I don't want him to be force sensitive (Baseline reasoning is there's already 3 in a five man group who are), but I just can't get past the idea that I don't have Cloak.

The big things I want to be able to do are:
1. Be good at sneaking around/espionage in general
2. Be at least decent in combat (preference towards melee). Not necessarily a combat monster, but good enough that I pull my own weight in a fight, not just weaken enemies for the force users to finish them off (or finish off the enemies the force users fail to kill).
3. Have enough out of combat/non-stealthy utility that I don't sit around with nothing to do when those things aren't applicable.
4. Be fun to play.

The rules include 32 point buy, level 4, and 22,000 credits to spend on things. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Waar]

I recently joined a Saga edition campaign, and I want to play a stealth based character. The thing is though I don't want him to be force sensitive (Baseline reasoning is there's already 3 in a five man group who are), but I just can't get past the idea that I don't have Cloak.

The big things I want to be able to do are:
1. Be good at sneaking around/espionage in general
2. Be at least decent in combat (preference towards melee). Not necessarily a combat monster, but good enough that I pull my own weight in a fight, not just weaken enemies for the force users to finish them off (or finish off the enemies the force users fail to kill).
3. Have enough out of combat/non-stealthy utility that I don't sit around with nothing to do when those things aren't applicable.
4. Be fun to play.

The rules include 32 point buy, level 4, and 22,000 credits to spend on things. Any advice would be appreciated.

For stealthy characters dex is a very imoprtant attribute, so not having a dex penalty from your choice of species is naturally important (not playing a large species should be obvious :smalltongue:). Skill focus in stealth or playing a small species is a huge bonus to stealth but having both is probably unnecesary (naturally depending on how "optimized" your fellow PCs are). With a 32 point buy you can most likely be very good both in and out of combat and stealth. Use computer, mechanics, deception, persuasion and gather information are all good utility skills and having some of these trained can be very usefull (but stealth and perception takes priority).

There is only one slight problem, you want all your stats to be good.
Str: If you decide to go melee
Dex: For Reflex defence,stealth and ranged attacks
Con: Some constitution is a good idea if you expect to be in combat a lot
Int: for skills
Wis: you will probably want ok wisdom for the will defence and perception
Cha: for social skills

This can be done in a few ways: you can sacrifice the social skill aspect and go Bloodcarver (species from scum and villany). You could instead use pistols (instead of melee) with sneak attack, combat trickery (feat from the unkown regions) and some species you like that doesn't have a Dex or cha penalty.
Or... you could play a replica droid (from threats of the galaxy) since they gain a bonus to both Str and Dex while at the same time gaining skill fucus in deception for free (if you already have deception trained).

This is what I would recommend:
Class: 3 levels in scoundrel, 1 level in any class of you choice, the order in which you take them is up to you.
Talents: sneak attack and dastardy strike or another sneak attack.
Trained skills: Stealth, Perception, Deception, utillity skills of your choice.
Feats: Combat trickery*, if you decide to go melee:weapon proficiency(Advanced melee weapons), other good feats are Skill focus(stealth and/or deception) as well as Improved defences, weapon focus is a decent combat choice while skill training can offer good utility.
Species:
If melee: Bloodcarver or Replica droid
If pistol user: any non large without a dex or cha penalty, personally i would recomend Human,Twi'lek or maybe Zabrak but if you have acces to Galaxy of Intrigue there are several nice species there to.
Stats (Before adjustment by species):
Str: 8-10 if ranged, 10-14+** if melee
Dex: 16 if ranged, 12-14+** if melee
Con: 10-14
Int: 12-14+
Wis:10+
Cha:12-14+
Note that a replica droid does not have a con score and if you decide to play as one you will (probably) use a lower Point buy due to this (remember to ask the GM for a what Point buy droids get to use if you decide play one).
* note that combat trickery is critical to my recomendation (it lets you feint against a targets will defence as 2 Swift actions, succes makes that target flat footed against one of your attacks (untill the end of your next turn?)) since sneak attack is of moderate value without it.
**since your sneak attack constitutes such a large part of your damage, the damage bonus from a high strenght is of moderate value and weapon finesse can let you use dex for accuracy with (light) melee weapons

[IdleMuse]

I concur that Sneak Attack is what you want to go with here. I also suggest unarmed as a cool weapon route to go for:

Something like...

Human/Zygerrian (Martial Arts I)
Str 17 (18 after lvl4)
Dex 15
Con 14 (12+2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 6 (8-2 racial)
Cha 13 (14 after lvl4)

Scoundrel 1| Sneak Attack, K'tara Training
Scoundrel 2| Skill Focus (Stealth)
Scoundrel 3| Sneak Attack, Combat Trickery
Soldier 1| Hammerblow, +Str +Cha

After that, you're probably looking at picking up five more levels of Scoundrel and entering Martial Arts Master at lvl10, to pick up K'tara Expertise (and probably some Teras Kasi as well), or going all soldier with a view to getting into Elite Trooper maybe.

[Waar]

I concur that Sneak Attack is what you want to go with here. I also suggest unarmed as a cool weapon route to go for:

Something like...

Human/Zygerrian (Martial Arts I)
Str 17 (18 after lvl4)
Dex 15
Con 14 (12+2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 6 (8-2 racial)
Cha 13 (14 after lvl4)

Scoundrel 1| Sneak Attack, K'tara Training
Scoundrel 2| Skill Focus (Stealth)
Scoundrel 3| Sneak Attack, Combat Trickery
Soldier 1| Hammerblow, +Str +Cha

After that, you're probably looking at picking up five more levels of Scoundrel and entering Martial Arts Master at lvl10, to pick up K'tara Expertise (and probably some Teras Kasi as well), or going all soldier with a view to getting into Elite Trooper maybe.
Nice build, personally I would decrease dex to 14 and increase Int (if Zygerrian) or Wis (if Human) by 2

@tsumechk Both of our advice relies heavily on several specific books (the unkown regions probably being the most important one), so which books do you have acces to? :smallsmile:

[Friv]

Come on, guys, there is only one race to pick if you are going to be stealthy.

Ewok.

Bonus to Dexterity, and +5 to Stealth, and you can reroll Stealth checks. You're basically a tiny invisible murderer.

If someone makes fun of you for playing an Ewok, just go stealthy and tear their character's face off.

[IdleMuse]

Defel, from Galaxy of Intrigue, are another amazing race for Stealth, being essentially invisible.

Dropping Dex in that build above makes sense, I just left it at 15 for the option of Rapid Strike next level.

[Waar]

Defel, from Galaxy of Intrigue, are another amazing race for Stealth, being essentially invisible.

Dropping Dex in that build above makes sense, I just left it at 15 for the option of Rapid Strike next level.

Rapid strike only "requires" dex 13 :smalltongue: (perhaps you think of Improved rapid strike :smallwink:)
Dex 14 is still good, but that is mostly for reflex defence and stealth.

[Alejandro]

I have a PC my campaign who is a stealth and martial arts monster.

Human, good Dex, focus in Stealth, all three martial arts feats, can reroll his martial arts attacks (Infiltrator prestige class) and plans to also take that classes' talent that lets him prevent one target from noticing him (Creeping Approach.) Toss on a camo cloak and get a holdout blaster (which he can also reroll) and you have the start of a nasty spy. :)

Oh, and those 3 martial arts feats plus the Reflex bonus from Infiltrator and a high Dex makes him one of the hardest to hit targets in the group.

[Kioku]

Perhaps this is a bit late to be helpful, but when it comes to stealth, Scout is your main. Scout is 100% the "stealth" class if the goal is just to be sneaky. By level 5 you can have a talent that lets you turn any concealment into total concealment, and if you play a Defel... oi. There's also the Stealth Field Generator for 5k from KotOR that, guess what, gives concealment (which gets turned into total concealment from aforementioned talent).
Nab one level of Soldier for AP Light and Armored Defense, and grab any light armor and apply Reflec (the upgraded version of Shadowskin) when you can afford it (Scum and Villainy, armor upgrades, +10 stealth for 20k).
Another good race option is Kushiban, though it never got updated to Saga ed as far as I know. They're mainly good because they're tiny size, which is 'stealth bonuses everywhere' mode.
As far as "good in combat," frankly it's hard for a SWSE character to not be useful in combat unless they just take 1 level of everything. If you go Scout 3/Soldier 1 to start, that's +3 BAB, and you'll be proficient with rifles from Scout. If you want to dip into Scoundrel, there's Point Blank Shot free and they have a lot of good talents - particularly Advantageous Opening, but also Fortune's Favor and Fool's Luck.
If you can convince your GM to let you swap out rifles for advanced melee weapons or Martial Arts I, that's up to you. I do know that the Infiltrator class does some wonderful things with unarmed combat, and is quite stealth-based as well, and Martial Arts feats help with combat no matter what because of their Reflex defense bonus.

TL;DR - Get at least 7 levels of Scout for Improved Stealth, Hidden Movement, Total Concealment, and Evasion. Long Stride would probably be very nice too. One early level of Soldier for Armored Defense and AP Light so you can use something with Shadowskin/Reflec. 5 skills and average/good hp from starting as Scout ftw.

[Hyena]

Don't take the sneak attack. Just... don't. The damage is atrocious, the talent cost is horrible, and it's much better just to take destructive ambusher, rapid strike, anything - except the sneak attack. It's bad. I mean, bad bad.

[Alejandro]

Sneak attack can work very will with the right build and equipment.

[Hyena]

Would you kindly explain, how +8d6 damage boost with 8 talent cost is better then +3W (which might as well be +3d12) damage boost with 2 talents and one feat.

[Alejandro]

Would you kindly explain, how +8d6 damage boost with 8 talent cost is better then +3W (which might as well be +3d12) damage boost with 2 talents and one feat.

Um, dude, have some coffee. I never said it was 8 talents good, nor that I would build a PC with that. Nor was I entirely talking about combat effectiveness. I was going to make the point about how there are several good applications for it on various types of PCs who aren't entirely built as combat monsters.

[Waar]

Would you kindly explain, how +8d6 damage boost with 8 talent cost is better then +3W (which might as well be +3d12) damage boost with 2 talents and one feat.

Unless I am mistaken (and you do not refer to rapid strike/shot and the ambusher talent tree) that would be 3 talents and one feat for +2 dice of damage vs 3 talents for +3d6 damage, which would be better when the weapon you use has d8s or lower for damage, about equall at d10s and worse at d12s (so yes sneak attacks with e-webs and blaster cannons would be worse than the amubsher talents+ rapid shot :smallwink:)

[IdleMuse]

As Waar correctly pointed out, Sneak Attack is better when you're gonna be using a low-dice-type weapon anyway (like most types of hold-out blasters, fitting the sneaky concept), and aren't taking it quite as many as 8 times. three or four seems best. And yeah, sure, even then, it's not a super-optimal choice, but it might be a great character choice, and not one that's better fulfilled mechanically elsewhere.

[Alejandro]

As Waar correctly pointed out, Sneak Attack is better when you're gonna be using a low-dice-type weapon anyway (like most types of hold-out blasters, fitting the sneaky concept), and aren't taking it quite as many as 8 times. three or four seems best. And yeah, sure, even then, it's not a super-optimal choice, but it might be a great character choice, and not one that's better fulfilled mechanically elsewhere.

And that is why character is just as important. I mean, really, Han Solo's build would be better if he dipped briefly into Jedi and picked up a bunch of Battle Strikes to use with his DL-44 or the Falcon's guns, but that is entirely out of character. :)