Warlock/Rogue

[tricktroller]

Ok folks I had a thought, play a halfling rogue/warlock with darkness and devil's sight. you cast devil's sight at the beginning of the day and you get the ebon eyes spell effectively. Now you cast darkness on yourself and fire at your opponents making all of your attacks hitting your opponents flatfooted touch ac for a total of 3d6 on a hit. would this work?

[Flickerdart]

Darkness creates an area of shadowy illumination. There's no reason they would be flat-footed against your attacks.

[Hunter Noventa]

This was a combo thought up very early in the Warlock's lifespan, i think it was defeated because the vision granted by Devil's Sight doesn't pierce magical darkness.

Not to mention, that darkness doesn't make you invisible automatically, unless it's total darkness.

[BowStreetRunner]

While the Devil's Sight invocation does allow you to see in magical darkness, the Darkness invocation and spell only create shadowy illumination. So as Flickerdart pointed out, they retain DEX to AC against your attacks.

[tricktroller]

could you hide in it? Or do you still need hide in plain sight if you are being observed?

How would you folks make this class combo work?

[tricktroller]

I was thinking Rogue1/Warlock3/Rogue16 for the build with halfling rogue substitution levels. Maybe Rogue1/Warlock3/Rogue2/Warlock3/Rogue11 for lesser invocations. How would you guys build up a warlock rogue?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, first off...

Devil's Sight + Darkness is an old combo, which is fairly inefficient for several reasons.

For one, as others have pointed out, Darkness does not block Line of Sight or Line of Effect, meaning you can't make a Hide check without HiPS. Which you can get at the cost of a feat since you have the Darkness SLA. However, you're blowing a feat and two class levels to do this.

Go to Magic of Incarnum and the PrC Umbral Disciple. The skills for that class are much more in line for a Rogue, you get more of them, and you still net HiPS by level 3, plus 20% concealment miss chance, plus +1d6 Sneak Attack. And the only prerequisites are that you have 1 Essentia and some skills you are already going to have. Much more build-friendly if all you are wanting is a method of generating sneak attacks.

Secondly, even if you have Darkness and HiPS, you STILL won't be as effective as you think you are. Basically, you'll only be able to take one shot a turn, according to the Sniping rules (and don't forget, you're taking a -20 on that check). That won't be enough to be worth bothering with.

PLUS let's not forget that many things are immune to precision-based damage, and other things simply aren't denied Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed, and your sneak attack dice won't even affect them.

Now for a Rogue/Warlock build? Sure, I can help you with that. It'll require Nosmiatic Chiurgeon from Dragonblooded so you can actually cast spells rather than use spell-like abilities so you can qualify for Arcane Trickster (you can't qualify for 'cast x level spell' otherwise), but it's certainly possible, and quite synergistic.

[tricktroller]

would a glaivelock/rogue work better? I mean the whole point of the character was getting the extra d6's of ranged sneak attack damage with the penetrating strike acf so I would get half sneak attack on things that were immune and amazing amounts of it against things that weren't.

[Snowbluff]

Drow of the Underdark has feats for this. Blend Into Shadows lets you hide in Darkness as a swift action.

Nosomatic Chiurgeon? How about trying Precocious Apprentice and a PrC that's more easily entered.

[Malroth]

The shadow illumination provides concealment so you can make hide checks within it. Drow of the Underdark has 2 feats 1 that gives you hide in plain sight when within 10 feet of a globe in darkness by spending a use of darkness, and another that allows you to expend a use of darkness as an immediate action, combined this lets you hide even on somebody elses turn.


As for build I'd go with a Rogue 1, Warlock 8, Hellfire Warlock3, Binder 1, Rogue X with Craven, Eldritch Claws, Blend into shadows, Darkstalker, and then Rapidstrike if i was a race that qualified

[tricktroller]

Ok so folks, leaving out tome of magic and incarnum, how would you make a halfling sub level rogue warlock work?

I want him to be halfling and I want him to do both of these classes. Feat ideas will be at 3rd taking blend into shadows so he can have HiPS and concealment, other than that I'm not sure, craven maybe?. On a sneak attack he will do 4d6 damage as a flatfooted touch attack.

He will advance rogue to 3 at least to get penetrating strike to do at least half SA damage on everything. So then he would do 6d6 on a sneak attack or 4d6 against anything immune to SA damage. at 5th level that is pretty potent I think, to be able to do every round. Now I just need to find ways to maximise his hide score so he can snipe a lot until he gets to 7th level for the dragon mag feat or 10th level rogue for the same thing.

[tricktroller]

well crap, I just noticed something. Only with slings and thrown weapons do they get the extra sneak attack damage.

[nedz]

Some builds I've been playing around with recently. These only go to 15th, but that's easy to fix.

Rogue 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 2 / Unseen Seer 10
The idea here is to use Beguiler to qualify for Unseen Seer, but then have Unseen Seer advance Warlock
Rogue 2 for evasion
5d6 sneak, 12th level invocations

Spellthief 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 2 / Unseen Seer 10
The same concept using Spellthief instead of Rogue
Spellthief 2 for steal spell effect
5d6 sneak, 12th level invocations

Rogue 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 10
Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 10
Two level dips are advantageous for Warlocks who want to take Quicken SLA Eldritch Blast at 12th
5d6 sneak, 13th level invocations

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Drow of the Underdark has feats for this. Blend Into Shadows lets you hide in Darkness as a swift action. You still only get one swift action per turn, and attacking blows your concealment, so you'll only get one shot per turn of sneak attack.


Nosomatic Chiurgeon? How about trying Precocious Apprentice and a PrC that's more easily entered.

Because you still can't cast 3rd level spells with Precocious Apprentice without a class that casts spells?

Also, OP, you are trying to hard to do the wrong thing. You are wanting opponents flat-footed so you can sneak attack. However, you're going about it in the wrong way.

A Wand of Grease will make your non-flying opponents flat-footed due to needing to make a balance check without the requisite ranks in balance. Marbles also accomplish this, if you want a more mundane way of doing this.

That way you don't need to blow two of your three Least invocations and one or two feats on a trick that doesn't work half the time.

[kharmakazy]

Okay, first off...

For one, as others have pointed out, Darkness does not block Line of Sight or Line of Effect, meaning you can't make a Hide check without HiPS.


What's this now? I was under the impression that if you had concealment you could hide.

Rules compendium says "You need cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check."

Edit: I got it... "If someone is observing you, even casually, you can’t hide." And nothing about shadowy illumination stops them from observing you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What's this now? I was under the impression that if you had concealment you could hide.

Rules compendium says "You need cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check."

Not while under direct observation


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

You need cover or concealment in order to hide. You also need to NOT be under direct observation.

[kharmakazy]

Yeah, I found that right after I asked.

Not to be pedantic or anything... but is observation even defined anywhere? What if you are being observed and you don't know it... does that mean you can't make a hide check and you have no idea why?

"If your observers are momentarily distracted, you can
attempt to hide. " But then it doesn't say anything about what distraction actually entails..

Edit: Presumably that refers to the list under concentration.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, I found that right after I asked.

Not to be pedantic or anything... but is observation even defined anywhere? What if you are being observed and you don't know it... does that mean you can't make a hide check and you have no idea why?

Under observation means within LoS. You can make your check all you want, you just automatically fail against those who have you in LoS at the time of the check.

[Kane0]

Is homebrew allowed?

I did a warlock fix that changes a couple invocations, one of them allowing sight in your own darkness effects. Might help you out.

[Snowbluff]

You still only get one swift action per turn, and attacking blows your concealment, so you'll only get one shot per turn of sneak attack. Yeah, but you won't have multiple attacks until you have more methods of hiding.



Because you still can't cast 3rd level spells with Precocious Apprentice without a class that casts spells? The only prerequisite is... a Caster level. Then find a class without a ridiculous requirement.


A Wand of Grease will make your non-flying opponents flat-footed due to needing to make a balance check without the requisite ranks in balance. Marbles also accomplish this, if you want a more mundane way of doing this.

That way you don't need to blow two of your three Least invocations and one or two feats on a trick that doesn't work half the time.
Yes. Because DC 10 isn't easily defeated 50% of the time. :smallsigh:

It's a also a standard action, so action economy fail until you get a familiar, which is the next step. Get a familiar, and then grab an Improved/Exalted (Coure Eladrin) one. Actually, yeah. Do that. Warlock2/Human Paragon2 so you have a Coure Eladrin (for Glitterdust).

[Darth Stabber]

I've seen rogue//warlock work gestalt, and other than that the only effective rogue warlock combo i've seen work was rogue with a 1lvl dip of warlock for the free untyped damage ranged attack and spiderclimb. I tried to make hideous blow + SA before eldritch glaive came about (and that was a shameful display).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, but you won't have multiple attacks until you have more methods of hiding.

The only prerequisite is... a Caster level. Then find a class without a ridiculous requirement. Right, but you STILL can't cast spells without a class that actually casts spells. Having a 2nd level spell slot does not equate to being able to cast 3rd level spells.


Yes. Because DC 10 isn't easily defeated 50% of the time. :smallsigh:Doesn't matter what the DC is. Just making the check is what makes you flat-footed. I automatically assume everyone hitting the grease will make the DC. But because they had to make the balance check, they're flat footed. See also:


Being Attacked while Balancing

You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.


It's a also a standard action, so action economy fail until you get a familiar, which is the next step. Get a familiar, and then grab an Improved/Exalted (Coure Eladrin) one. Actually, yeah. Do that. Warlock2/Human Paragon2 so you have a Coure Eladrin (for Glitterdust). OR, you can use it after their turn, they start their turn and have to make a balance check and making them flat-footed, then your turn and get a full attack.

Agree with the familiar, though.

[Snowbluff]

Right, but you STILL can't cast spells without a class that actually casts spells. Having a 2nd level spell slot does not equate to being able to cast 3rd level spells. Why are we trying to cast spells of the third level? Not to mention PA explicitly gives the ability to cast spells. If you feel uncomfortable, add Magical Training.


Doesn't matter what the DC is. Just making the check is what makes you flat-footed. I automatically assume everyone hitting the grease will make the DC. But because they had to make the balance check, they're flat footed. See also:

OR, you can use it after their turn, they start their turn and have to make a balance check and making them flat-footed, then your turn and get a full attack. Once they leave the squares, they aren't balancing to move anymore.


Agree with the familiar, though.
Of course. The Grease spot works a lot better if you have some free actions to do it with, even if it's just the Raven. :smallcool:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why are we trying to cast spells of the third level? Not to mention PA explicitly gives the ability to cast spells. If you feel uncomfortable, add Magical Training. Well, probably because Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) requires casting at least one 3rd level spell? Which you can't do if you don't have a spellcasting mechanic, despite having spellcasting slots, because you don't have any spells to put IN those slots...

Once they leave the squares, they aren't balancing to move anymore.Assuming they are able to. That's where proper placement of Area Effects comes in handy.


Of course. The Grease spot works a lot better if you have some free actions to do it with, even if it's just the Raven. :smallcool:

Well yea, free actions always make everything better

[Snowbluff]

Well, probably because Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) requires casting at least one 3rd level spell? Which you can't do if you don't have a spellcasting mechanic, despite having spellcasting slots, because you don't have any spells to put IN those slots... It gives a second level spell known.


Assuming they are able to. That's where proper placement of Area Effects comes in handy.Which can be tricky, of cours.e


Well yea, free actions always make everything better

*highfive!*

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It gives a second level spell known.
Which can be tricky, of cours.e


Spells

Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher. Say what now?

[Snowbluff]

Say what now?

Arcane Trickster still? Are you sure, because Chiurgeon is a pain to get into alone, IIRC.

You could easily Sanctum the spell to get into that class but that's like 4 feats. I would suggest this if you can retrain the feats after entry. Which is fine, considering the feat tax and CC skills needed for Chiurgeon.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Arcane Trickster still? Are you sure, because Chiurgeon is a pain to get into alone, IIRC. Nah, if you are a halfling, getting in is a slam-dunk. Skills you'll already have. Spell-like abilities you already have.


You could easily Sanctum the spell to get into that class but that's like 4 feats. I would suggest this if you can retrain the feats after entry. Which is fine, considering the feat tax and CC skills needed for Chiurgeon.

But again, you have no spells to cast with those slots, which means no entry. Slots /= able to cast. There's no CC skills with Chiurgeon, everything can be done with Rogue.

[Chronos]

A swordsage dip can also help. Pick up Stalker in the Night to attack while hiding, and Assassin's Stance for more Sneak Attack.

And "being observed" can't just mean "within line of sight", because that would make Hide completely unusable: If there's no one in line of sight, you don't need to hide at all, because nobody can see you. For someone to start observing you, they need to be able to see you at some point, so if you have a way to remain hidden indefinitely (including while attacking, if you're doing so) you'll also remain unobserved.

[nedz]

Rogue 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 4 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Warlock +1
Unseen Seer advances Beguiler, Arcane Trickster advances Warlock
8d6 sneak, Invocations at level 14, Beguiler casting at level 5

Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 4 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Warlock +1
as above, but Master Spellthief gets you Beguiler casting at level 6 and the ability to steal 3rd level spells.

[Curmudgeon]

"If your observers are momentarily distracted, you can
attempt to hide. " But then it doesn't say anything about what distraction actually entails..
See the Bluff skill description, specifically "Creating a Diversion to Hide".