Preparing to play Red Hand of Doom, which class should I use?

[Giegue]

As the title asks. I am preparing to enter a IRL group that will be playing through Red Hand of Doom. Right now, their party has three players, and I will be the 4th and last. The current party, from what I know, consists of a barbarian, generalist wizard and monk. This party is thus lacking both a skillmonkey and a divine spellcaster and thus I have come up with two builds to bring but am not sure which will be more criticial. One is an archivist, to cover the divine caster role. The other is a beguiler, to cover the skillmonkey/trapfinding roles. I will not play a regular rogue or a bard because I only play fullcasters. I will not play a cleric, even a cloistered one, because wisdom is required and my poor RL wisdom score makes it difficult for me to RP high wisdom effectively. Now, if worse comes to worse, I have convinced the DM to allow the third party feat lost traditions, which will allow me to switch my cleric casting to the much easier to Rp Int or Cha. However, this just dosen't feel "right" to me, so I'd much rather just play an archivist or beguiler.

Anyway, which option would be better/more useful for this adventure path? A divine caster in the archivist? Or a skillmonkey/trapfinder in the beguiler? Likewise, would neither be worth it or the party would be best served by a divine caster who is also a skillmonkey, should I just make a cloistered cleric and take the lost traditions feat and deal with the "weirdness" of a cleric who's magic is not wisdom-powered? Any input on this would be appreciated.

[Bubzors]

I am currently DMing th RHOD campaign and love it. One thing to remember off the bat is that the module is designed for a classic four person fighter, healbot, caster, and rogue like character. That being said, the more important would be the divine caster for the healinh element. That is just my opinion however. If your DM does not buff up encounters and you guys are an experienced group it shoulsnt be too big a problem to go beguiler. There is one in the party I DM now and he is very useful. Not just for skills, but for social situations, scouting and a little battlefield control. I would suggest putting some points into umd so that you can get a wand of lesser vigor to heal out of combat.

Personally I would just go cleric. I love the class and dont really get where you are coming from saying its hard to roleplay because of high wisdom.

[Eldariel]

Archivist should be fine. Not so much the Healing, Beguiler can use Wand of Cure Light Wounds just as well, but there is an array of divine buffs (Magic Vestment, Barkskin, etc.) that last a long time and would otherwise be unavailable. Further, Archivists aren't terrible with regards to skills, having 4+Int skill points and Int-based casting.

You can expand the skill list with feats if so desired, or multiclassing (e.g. Ruathar [Races of the Wild], though of course Archivist generally wants their Dark Knowledges ASAP). Off the top of my head there are places where trapfinding is useful (could hire an NPC Rogue for it tho, or use Find Traps on your own high Int ass and circumvent mechanical and Dispel magical ones) but a divine caster is probably more indispensable.


Though Beguiler wouldn't be horrible either, I feel Archivist will ultimately contribute more especially if played well. Sacred Exorcist could give you Turning down the line for Divine feats too. Note Archivist bonus spells mechanic though (unless you switch bonus spells with like Illumian race or something).

[Giegue]

As far as clerics are concerned, an 8 in wisdom would be a solid, if somewhat generous estimation of my RL wisdom score. Try RPing a high wis character when your RL wisdom score is 8 at best...yeah....now you know why I shy away from cleric. As for archivist, the academic priest feat(which I already told them DM I'd be taking if I go that route, so it's approved already) makes archivist totally int based for it's spellcasting, eliminating the need for wisdom all together. Also, any of the turning granting classes are unfortunately out, since they all require good and I have already set my sights on being neutral evil.

[Maginomicon]

Do not play a wizard or a crafting-oriented character. You will not have in-game time for spell research or libraries for scrolls, and you won't have time for crafting unless you use the craft points variant.

Realize there may be more fullcasting classes than you realize. Here's a list of non-core fullcasters (other than Archivist or Beguiler) from my efforts on Spell Point Tables:

Spontaneous Cleric (OGC)
Spontaneous Druid (OGC)
Death Master (Dragon Compendium)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Favored Soul (Complete Divine)
Healer (Miniatures Handbook)
Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium)
Shaman (oriental) (Oriental Adventures)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Generic Spellcaster (OGC)
Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine)
Urban Druid (Dragon Compendium)
Warmage (Complete Arcane)
Wu Jen (Complete Arcane)


Personally? I'd recommend the Sha'ir. Even if he's not a divine caster, he has access to divine magic, but more importantly he becomes able to cast spells just by virtue of knowing the spell's name (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15202614&postcount=34). Barring that, take a Generic Spellcaster since you'd have access to all four of the primary spell lists and can cast spontaneously.

[Giegue]

Yeah, the only thing about that class is the extremely limiting fluff. You basicly MUST be from your setting's middle east expy, more or less. I prefer classes that allow for more character concepts and don't want to be forced to play the exotic traveler from a far away land that for some reason happens to be stuck in the Europe-esc part of the world. That's the same reason pretty much every OA class is out.

As for generic caster, don't think that class would be allowed since it's not meant for use with the normal classes and is intended for games in which there are only generic classes.

[Maginomicon]

Yeah, the only thing about that class is the extremely limiting fluff. You basicly MUST be from your setting's middle east expy, more or less. I prefer classes that allow for more character concepts and don't want to be forced to play the exotic traveler from a far away land that for some reason happens to be stuck in the Europe-esc part of the world. That's the same reason pretty much every OA class is out.It doesn't have to be that way. They could have been taught the secrets of a class by a traveler while they stayed (or were dying? :smallwink: ) in your comfy peasant bungalow in whatever setting you want.

[Giegue]

Still, limiting fluff is limiting and nothing can change that. So that class is sadly 100% out.

[Namfuak]

I know you said you don't want to play a cleric, but you can quite literally fulfill both the trapfinding/skillmonkey and divine caster thing by being a cleric with the kobold domain, which gets trapfinding/disabling as a domain power (in theory you have to be a kobold to get it, but if your dm is lenient it could be refluffed as a general dungeon-delver domain and added to deities like Olimindara). With a character like that, switching the caster stat to int actually makes quite a bit of sense from an RP perspective, and in addition you get a healthy boost to your skill points per level. By using spells like guidance of the avatar for boosts to skill checks you can effectively never fail at trapfinding and disabling (or any other skill check), and still have buffing spells leftover for battle.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but there is NO logical reason that cleric casting should be based off of int, even with lost traditions. It just makes no sense, clerics get their power through belief in their deity or philosophy/creed/whathave you. Hence why wisdom is their casting stat. Even with lost traditions approved, it just feels really, really, really weird fluff-wise to have a cleric who doesn't use wisdom for anything. How in the 9 hells are they getting their magic if not by faith? How does having a high intellect allow them to cast divine magic? Stealing it with some kind of strange magical rites? That's basically what the Ur-Priest does, so it would not really apply. Their god happens to value int and thus grants them their spells without them needing to worship/have strong faith? Isn't that more along the lines of a favored soul or an oracle? Lost Traditions, while a nice feat, makes virtually no sense RP-wise, whatever way you try to swing it, at least for a cleric.

EDIT: I think I may have answered my own question. If it would be allowed, the Oracle would be right up my alley. While it is a PF class, my DM suggested I play a PF summoner when I told him I may want to make a summoning focused archivist, and he's already using the PF versions of the core races. So while it may not work, I suppose I can try and convince him to let me use the PF oracle, altered for 3.5e use. If anybody knows whether or not the Oracle would be a good option I would like to know.

[Sparkzlight]

I don't see why you don't go for bard. They can buff allies, do OK as your average skill monkey, and can do some minor healing.

But, oh well.

I'd say divine caster is the way to go. Cleric or archivist, definitely.

[Eurus]

Yeah, but there is NO logical reason that cleric casting should be based off of int, even with lost traditions. It just makes no sense, clerics get their power through belief in their deity or philosophy/creed/whathave you. Hence why wisdom is their casting stat. Even with lost traditions approved, it just feels really, really, really weird fluff-wise to have a cleric who doesn't use wisdom for anything. How in the 9 hells are they getting their magic if not by faith? How does having a high intellect allow them to cast divine magic? Stealing it with some kind of strange magical rites? That's basically what the Ur-Priest does, so it would not really apply. Their god happens to value int and thus grants them their spells without them needing to worship/have strong faith? Isn't that more along the lines of a favored soul or an oracle? Lost Traditions, while a nice feat, makes virtually no sense RP-wise, whatever way you try to swing it, at least for a cleric.

Justifying an Int-casting Lost Traditions cleric is tricky, but not impossible. Which god does he worship? Boccob, perhaps, or some other intellectual deity, or even a trickster? Either way, his prayers and displays of faith aren't rooted in Wisdom, they're rooted in Intelligence. Maybe his god doesn't care about meditating and hymns and spiritualism, he just demands exact adherence to complex rituals, or the intelligence to understand the nature of magic. Maybe he has to literally argue philosophy with daevas in order to get them to grant him spells.

[Giegue]

I don't go for bard because it's not a fullcaster. It's spellcasting is SEVERELY stunted compared to fullcasters(and don't say "but sublime chord" because that class has a ridiculously skill-intensive qualification in a bunch of skills that do nothing to fill the "skillmonkey" role.) Anyway, as for the cleric fluff issue, it's a homebrew setting, with no pre-defined deities that I know of. This means, IMO, that I have flexibility with what a cleric's faith/deity would be since I'd basically have to create them from scratch or just follow a philosophy instead of a deity. I have a fair degree of freedom here, it's just that the idea of a cleric casting off int seems wrong since they get their power through worship rather then the gods just giving it to them because they like a particular attribute of theirs and one can't really worship with int...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Could you do something to get the Favored Soul working entirely off charisma? Find a feat or homebrew one?


Also, I fail to see how faith is tied to Wisdom (common sense, perception, and willpower) from the fluff perspective, besides the fact that divine casting tends to work off of it. There are certainly plenty of highly devout people out there who are totally lacking in common sense.

A Charisma-based cleric could be a mad prophet type. A little bit mad (low Wisdom), but utterly certain of his own faith. An Int-based cleric could use similar fluff to the Archivist, always looking for the true history of his faith, old prayers, trying to find his god's hand in everything...

[Giegue]

Again, that's personality stuff. Thats not the issue I am having fluff wise. The issue I am having in relation to fluff is why the cleric's divine magic is powered by a stat that it usually is not powered by. Clerics receive power through worship. Wisdom is their casting stat because it is what they use in worship. Meditation and understanding of the divine in the world and one could even say their deity is usually tied to wisdom.

The thing that separates a cleric from a favored soul or PF oracle is that element of worship. In the case of the favored soul or oracle, the God or gods give them their power as a blessing(or curse), many times without them even excepting it willingly or knowing until they grow older. The cleric on the other hand, actively petitions their God for magic through worship. Wisdom is their casting stat because it is, at least in most cases, the stat that is tied to traditional forms of worship. While I suppose one could justify, say, doing scholarly work tied to one's faith on a spiritual level as well as an academic one as a form of worship, the issue becomes why there is virtually nobody else that your God grants magic to for such alternate forms of worship.

This is my main gripe with lost traditions. It creates what is essentially a very annoying(at least fluff-wise) "special snowflake" scenario in which your character is essentially the only person in the entire world who gains divine spells in the way they do. That's why I think it's REALLY odd and just "wrong" fluff wise. Pretty much every NPC cleric you meet will cast off of wisdom. Heck, if you happen to meet a worshiper of the same deity who is a wisdom-based NPC this scenario becomes even more awkward and your character more odd. It's not so much the justification itself that is difficult to create but rather rectifying the very real "special snowflake" scenario it creates.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fair enough. Favored Soul, though?

[Giegue]

Lost Traditions, which has already been approved, fixes the casting stat issue with the favored soul but doesn't fix the fact it cannot also cover the skillmonkey role at all and is generally a sucktastic class.(At least in my eyes.) The ONLY reason I even considered lost traditions cleric was because via cloistered cleric and the right domains it can also fill the skillmonkey role. If I am going to forget trying to fill the skillmonkey role and just go for the divine caster role then the archivist is totally superior to favored soul in every way possible, and I don't need to be a cleric because archivist exists.

[prufock]

One is an archivist, to cover the divine caster role. The other is a beguiler, to cover the skillmonkey/trapfinding roles.
Be both with a theurge build. With early entry tricks, I think you can get into mystic theurge at 4th level, and RHoD only goes to 12th anyway.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is there a reason why you can't RP a Cloistered Cleric with Lost Tradition the same as you would an Archivist?
It's just the mechanics after all, the fluff can be whatever you make it.

A cleric of a trickster god or god of thieves would make a lot more sense as a rogue-like, street-wise type than a stereotypical wise man imo.
Perhaps his god rewards him with some divine power for thinking on his feet or pulling of some daring stunt or something?

If anything it's the fact that all clerics of all gods run off wisdom that doesn't fit with some character concepts to me.

[Giegue]

See above. "Special snowflake" syndrome is in play here. Also, the whole "the god grants me powers not due to worship but just because they like me/something I do" is steeping on the toes of the favored soul and oracle. The cleric MUST get their powers through worship of some kind, and if you engage in an alternative form of worship then special snowflake syndrome kicks in because NOBODY else you will meet, ever, gains divine magic in the way you do. It just creates a vicious cycle, really, and one that is very hard to break. So much so that I created another whole thread dedicated to fighting that "special snowflake" syndrome.