Suggestions for a Grappler

[ProfessorWoland]

So I like making strange characters in D&D, and this one is no exception. I am playing a Goliath rogue who is not sneaky at all. He grapples people, pins them, and proceeds to sneak attack them to death while they are pinned. Also he has armor spikes for additional grapple damage and the Earth's Embrace feat to help deal more damage in the grapple.

Character stats so far

Level 6 Goliath Rogue

Str 20
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Earth's Embrace, Clever Wrestling

Basically I am looking for:
-Any feats for sneak attack to improve my damage or effectiveness
-Any feats for grappling to improve my damage or effectiveness
-Useful items (magical or non-magical)
-Useful equipment
-Useful weapons
-Useful armor and weapon properties
-Useful grafts
-Ways to grow more arms
-Items that make enemies take damage per round when I am touching them
-Things that could help me reduce the strength score of my enemies to make their grapple check worse
-Ways to incapacitate my enemies to make them easier to grapple
-Ways to pin people as quickly as possible
-Stackable ways to up my strength
-Any other tricks to help make this grappling death machine of a rogue deal tons of damage and be as broken as possible.

My only restrictions are that I don't really want to go into the Reaping Mauler prestige class, and my DM won't allow me to do anything that involves Psionics or Chakkra.

My DM does however allow me to combine multiple magical items, ie gauntlets of ogre power and gloves of dexterity, by paying an increased cost. So I can have as many effects for each slot as I can put on my equipment, so help me stack this guy up and make him give the best hugs ever.

[ArcturusV]

Can you actually sneak attack in a grapple? I mean grapplers lose their Dex bonus, but only to people outside of the grapple. And you wouldn't be flanking in a grapple, as you share space. I just don't know how you'd get sneak attack on it. Unless you had something like greater invisibility I suppose. Invisible grappling would be weird, but I suppose would work with it.

It'd be an interesting trick to know, if I overlooked something. Especially if it was blatantly obvious.

... marbles in the square before you grapple?

[ProfessorWoland]

I can't remember if this actually works, or it my DM is just allowing me to do it because he finds it hilarious. Either way, help me make him broken please :smallbiggrin:

[ArcturusV]

Well, standard thing that helps. Like taking a single level of Wizard (Sorcerer would be better, but you dumped Charisma) can get you an Octopus Familiar (I think that's +4 for Grapples as a bonus) and Enlarge Person, which gives you a size modifier and a Strength bonus, which always helps (And increases your base damage dice). Plus of course other possible bonuses, having even low level magic never hurts.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Scorpion's Grasp (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/) is pretty useful since it is essentially Improved Grab.

A level of Barbarian (using the Mountain Rage substitution level) is extremely good as size categories are everything while grappling (you might want to take extra rage).

Two levels in Swordsage would give you access to the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/crushing-weight-mountain--3715/), which gives you constrict (Crusader and Warblade would work better; but you would need to spend a feat in Martial Stance)

[Humble Master]

Some stuff I found that would help.

From Tome of Battle
Crushing Weight of the Mountain (3rd level Stone Dragon stance). You get to deal 2d6 + 1-1/2 Str bonus while grappling with a successful grapple check. Could help deal some more damage in general.

Superior Unarmed Strike. If you want to just beat the snot out of people this helps a lot. It makes your unarmed damage scale with level which is nice.

From Complete Warrior
Earth's Embrace. If you pin an opponent they take 1d12 damage per round

[mattie_p]

Can you actually sneak attack in a grapple? I mean grapplers lose their Dex bonus, but only to people outside of the grapple. And you wouldn't be flanking in a grapple, as you share space. I just don't know how you'd get sneak attack on it. Unless you had something like greater invisibility I suppose. Invisible grappling would be weird, but I suppose would work with it.

Savage Grapple from Complete Adventurer is what you are missing.


Benefit: While you are in a wild shape, any time you make a successful grapple check to damage a creature with which you are already grappling, you can add your sneak attack damage as well.

It is a nifty trick, especially as wild shapers make better grapplers.

[ProfessorWoland]

So I should go become a class that has wild shape?

[ArcturusV]

It's not a bad idea, other than the fact that you already dumped your mental stats. If you can get a reroll... sure, why not? Druids are insanely powerful in their own right.

Alternatively you could get it from going into Barbarian. Take Bear Warrior, which would qualify you to take Shapechanger which grants you Wildshape. From which you could go into Warshaper I presume.

Then you could go around changing yourself into a really fearsome grappler. But because you'll be shapechanging your impressive physical stats won't mean much.

[morkendi]

Few levels psy war would let you expand for more bonus. Also claws of the beast and prevenom claws. You could also shrink for when you do need stealth. Plus a couple bonus feats.

[ProfessorWoland]

Perhaps it was unwise to dump my mental stats. I just enjoy being a 300 pound, 8-foot tall rogue who can lift 800 pounds over his head and is not sneaky in the slightest.

[Tvtyrant]

There is a feat that allows Sneak Attack in a grapple. One of the Completes I think.

I think Mountain Rage is your best bet, or maybe go Totemist 2 for binds. Neither needs you to become a caster or needs casting stats, so you are good there.

[ProfessorWoland]

Unfortunately I can't go Totemist as my DM does not allow any of the Chakkra binding classes.

Can anyone think of any good magical arms, armor, or items? Thinking of making my armor spikes vicious and vampiric.

[Darth Stabber]

Totemist is a great dip for grapplers, even if it's only a 2 level dip. A two level dip will net you +6 to grapple checks, even more if you get some more essentia from another source. And this is incarnum, you get a lot more options on top of that.

[eggynack]

It hasn't really come up yet, so I thought I'd bring up the almighty power of summoned creatures. Druids can become a bear, sure, but that's a remarkably inefficient use of resources. You're basically trading turns with the enemy, while standing in punching range. Instead, build a druid focused on summoning. A giant crocodile at, SNA IV, has a grapple mod of +21, and that's before augment summoning, and potentially animal growth. Now, instead of trading turns on a one to one basis with the enemy, you are trading one turn of yours, for as many turns as the summon can sustain the grapple. It's a much better arrangement. Moreover, with summons, you're on the good end of size bonuses being the key to grappling, instead of the crappy end. It might not fit your intended flavor of grappling the opponent with your bear arms (:smallbiggrin:), but it makes you one of the only classes that's able to grapple efficiently. If you really want to, you can also become a bear and haumph folks, but summoning is really where it's at.

[ProfessorWoland]

Summoning is an idea I hadn't thought of, but I did dump Int and Wis already, so I'd be a terrible spellcaster.

[Darth Stabber]

Summoning is an idea I hadn't thought of, but I did dump Int and Wis already, so I'd be a terrible spellcaster.

Totemist abilities are keyed to CON.

[ProfessorWoland]

But my DM does not allow classes that require essentia and Chakkra binds and such.

[Samalpetey]

Black blood cultist (http://dndtools.eu/classes/black-blood-cultist/)? It looks like a pretty good grappling class to me, and you could get mountain rage for entry

[morkendi]

I think there is a feat that would let you base casting on a different ability score. Lost tradition, but I don't know if it has to be another mental stat.

[danzibr]

Black blood cultist (http://dndtools.eu/classes/black-blood-cultist/)? It looks like a pretty good grappling class to me, and you could get mountain rage for entry
Dang, beat me to it. I was totally going to suggest this. Try to get plenty of natural attacks while you're at it (check my WIP handbook for some ideas).

[Krobar]

Some of the feats I've always liked for grappler/pugilistic types are

1. Improved Unarmed Strike. This shouldn't even have to be mentioned.
2. Superior Unarmed Strike. Because you need to hit harder.
3. Improved Grapple. Because you need to get the take-down before you can ground & pound with your Power Attacks.
4. Power Attack. Obviously.
5. Brutal Strike. Hit them so hard with your power attack that they have to make a fortitude save or be sickened.
6. Clever Wrestling. Grapple bonuses against larger creatures (the larger they are, the higher the bonus)
7. Close Quarters Fighting. Shut down those other grapplers, even if they have improved grapple or improved grab.
8. Chokehold. When you pin them they get to start making fortitude saves or fall unconscious.



I think my next character will be a grappling/brawling Dungeon Crasher.

[Drelua]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but are you aware of Unearthed Arcana's Sneak Attack Fighter ACF? It lets you trade a Fighter's bonus feats for full Sneak Attack, and if you want a bit more skills, it can explicitly be combined with Thug even though they both replace the same class feature.

Both of these can be found on the SRD if you're interested.

[TmasterT]

first off, ask your DM if you can combine the barbarian bear totem and spirit bear totem ACF's, basiclly just dont take the toughness from bear totem at 1st

Spirit bear totem (complete champion) gives you imp grab at 1st lvl.
bear totem (unearthed arcana) gives you imp grapple at 2nd, and at 5th another untyped+4 to grapples.

so goliath with mountain rage, imp unarmed strike, flying kick

you charge, do your unarmed damage +1D12, being a free grapple check (imp grab) immediatly do your grapple damage with the grapple check which should be unreasonably high cause your Str, size, and +8 from bear totem.

at higher lvls or if your DM allows flaws, you add in superior unarmed strike, earth embrace, multigrab, imp multigrab. maybe a monks belt, maybe hammer fist for the initial attack, powerful charge, maybe take 3 lvls of reaping mauler for the choke out in case you get stuck with really high HP creatures.
dont forget enchanting those armor spikes.

any way end game is a large super strong dude who charges in grabs a dude begins choking him out, followed on subsequent rounds moving with the grapple and grabbing another guy until you have the whole room in one big grapple.

the reaping mauler is for illumin with the aesh sigil, that lets you use str for your checks, its not a great class but just tossing it out for ideas. Bear warrior is a by far better class.

forgot to add the feat imp natural attack. with your size increase from mountain rage, it will change your base damage from medium to huge, added with a monk belt and superior unarmed your doing a ton of base damage+ str.with imp multigrab and a large size you retain your threatening squares so you become nearly untouchable.

[ProfessorWoland]

Oh my! The Black Blood Cultist looks absolutely lovely! I think I'll do that and a dip into Reaping Mauler as well, and maybe eventually Bear Warrior.

Any ideas for items? I was thinking about things like Greater Cloak of the Salamander and Cloak of Quills for the damage per round there. Are there any weapon or armor properties that anyone knows of that deal damage per round or have some beneficial effect like ability drain while my enemies are touching me? I am more a fan of continuous effects, not so much the once per day items.

Also if I wanted (a) graft(s), which one(s) should I get?

[ProfessorWoland]

A quick look at Reaping Mauler revealed a problem. Their two special grapple attacks have saves that are 10 + Reaping Mauler Level + Wisdom Mod, but I dumped my Wis score. This means that everything would be making the saves all the time. What would make this worthwhile is if I could find a way to us my strength mod instead of my wisdom for the sake of determining the DC. Is that even possible?

[Edit] Another random thought; if I were to take a one level dip into wizard just to get the octopus familiar for the +4 on grapple checks:

a) What kind of bonus does it grant? Is it stackable with other things I will want to get?

b) Could I carry around my aquatic familiar in a bag of holding or another kind of cheap, transportable, magical container full of water in order to keep it alive and benefit from the bonus? (I'd enjoy this immensely because of the hilarity factor it would add.)

c) It is it worth the one level dip for the +4 on grapple?

[Darth Stabber]

A quick look at Reaping Mauler revealed a problem. Their two special grapple attacks have saves that are 10 + Reaping Mauler Level + Wisdom Mod, but I dumped my Wis score. This means that everything would be making the saves all the time. What would make this worthwhile is if I could find a way to us my strength mod instead of my wisdom for the sake of determining the DC. Is that even possible?

So eschew reaping mauler. It's not that good a PRC, the best way to buff a grappler is increasing his size, and that turns off reaping mauler's class abilities. The true paths to mastery of grappling do not go through reaping mauler. Totemist, druid, black blood cultist, and bear warrior, verily they shall win at grappling. My favored barbarian build tends to out perform reaping mauler, and wasn't even designed with grappling in mind.

Barbarian5/fighter2/bear warrior5/totemist2/frost rager5/warblade2.

I put this together with idea charging and natural attacks, but by virtue of being a large bear with girallon arms, I can handily out wrestle maulers with ease.

[ProfessorWoland]

So I suppose I should just dump this character and start over but I was really hoping that I could make sneak attack work with this, and I am not quite ready to give up on the idea of a hulking death-hug rogue just yet.

Also, as I mentioned before, my DM does not allow Totemists, so I couldn't do the build you just mentioned.

[ProfessorWoland]

Still need ideas for grafts and items if anyone has them.

Also looking for any fun grapple or sneak attack combos or synergies that would make this character broken. I am trying to make this anti-rogue as stupid strong as possible. I just love being enormous and sneak attacking people to death with grapple, armor spikes, and large clubs. One of my favourite things I've done so far is creep up on a hobgoblin and kill him instantly with a sneak attack thrown club to the face.

A respec might be possible if I have to do it, as we haven't done much in the campaign yet, but I would have to stay as a Goliath. Any suggestions to make a good grappler, or start a grappler build for a character at level six? Should I keep my six levels as a rogue or scrap them?

[Darth Stabber]

Also, as I mentioned before, my DM does not allow Totemists, so I couldn't do the build you just mentioned.

Missed that part, though totemist actually isn't needed, the primary purpose of the totemist dip was to add extra natural weapons (which could also be achived via warshaper 4, thus also cutting warblade). You could insert some rogue and or swordsage to get some sneak attack in the open level slots. It wouldn't be primarily sneak attack oriented, but if your GM is allowing grapple SA then it's 2 or 3 d6 extra damage. I didn't really post that build as an example to use, just to demonstrate how easily reaping mauler is outdone, even without trying. With that build I eventually figured out how good grappling was as a main plan, and usually started a grapple after a charge if the bite attack hit (thus negating the fact that I dumped my ac through the floor via shock trooper).


The key to a good grappler is size, for several reasons (not just the size bonus to grapple checks), followed by strength/other grapple check mods. Even if you do 10,000 damage on a successful pin, you still have to win the grapple checks, and given the prevalence of big monters at higher levels it becomes imperative to be able to win those checks, because the monsters that aren't good at grappling frequently have access to freedom of movement, so you can only truely grapple things that plan on grappling. Freedom of movement is a huge concern as well, you need to be able to negate it, or have a back-up plan good enough to be your main plan. BarbarianX/fighterY/bear warrior5/black blood cultistZ would be my recommendation for being all of the grappler you can be, though that doesn't include sneak attack. My other thought is druid20 which I probably better since it's a druid (and comes with several built in back-up plans, plus monsterous octopi are amazing grappler).

[The Random NPC]

Weapon of Last Resort is an enchantment that does more damage when your opponent is larger than you, its in one of the completes. I would grab an item of once a day Antimagic Field (or really anything to shut down Freedom of Movement) in case your GM decides to Freedom of Movement you. Remember, if your opponent is 2 or more sizes larger than you, you automatically fail to establish a grapple.