[3.5] How to achieve certain affects in game?

[INoKnowNames]

While I'm burning the midnight oil, I've had a long time to think about another character in another game I'm in, and I've decided I'd like to plan out his spell list. Darn Spontaneous Casters being more hardwork than planned casters and their floating spell lists, but what'ya gonna do, ya know?

To that end, there's a certain character who has a few abilities I would like to emulate with the character I'm making. But I'm not sure what spells could do that. For the record, this is for a Bard / Sublime Chord.

1) I'd like a Defensive Shield like spell that I can cast and use to absorb as much damage as possible. I know there are things like Mage Armor that make you hard to hit, but I'm looking for more of an immediate action "No, you didn't just kill me. You certainly almost did, though, but No". Sounds kinda cheesy, though, so I'd expect a trick like that to be found in the upper level spells, which is fine with me, I suppose.

Achieved: Shadow Envocation (Wings of Cover) The effects of Wings of Cover are still being debated, and I'm not sure if I can use a Standard Action to cast an Immediate Action spell and it still count as an Immediate Action, which would keep this from being the instant-"My Life Just Flashed Before My Eyes" Save effect I'm looking for.

2) How much ranged damage can a Sorcerer inflict without -any- Metamagic Feats or Stackers? Relying just on Spell Combinations: No Incantrix, no Feats, no Metamagic. Celerity (though cheesy, and I'm still trying to figure out the use for Lesser Celerity beyond an immediate action dodge), Arcane Fusion, Orb spells (if need be, but I honestly would like to see Cloud of Knives and other such spells instead, just out of style), Arcane Spell Surge, and other suck tricks are still on the table. And the farther out the range, the better, assuming I had an additional way of making sure I could maintain that range. Again, the big limitation is that this can -only- be done with Sorcerer spells... and maybe some WBL.

3) Sorcerer Haste like Spell at 4th level or higher? Just for the extra attack, though I suppose I don't need the speed... If only Speed Weapons weren't so blasted overpriced! Those things are hardly worth +1 enhancements!

EDIT: THIS IS MY PUNISHMENT FOR MAKING A POST AT 2 AM. I COME OFF LIKE AN IDIOT. The spell was not Haste, it was Fly. Somehow I tricked myself into thinking that it was Haste that I couldn't cast, when it was infact Fly that wouldn't be on my spell list, and as far as I know Fly is the best spell for... flight. And I'm not too interested in flying on a summoned mount, just because of the inconvenience falling from it without being able to fly causes. Achieved: Overland Flight (Duh).

4) A way to teleport someone you wish to fight privately to a private location and then teleport back. Is the idea of a forced teleport even possible in 3.5, let alone one that works in a combat setting? I've certainly had trouble finding any... Achieved: Crystal Ice Teleport. Accepting better responses, if at all.

[Slipperychicken]

1. Wings of Cover (Sorc 2, RotD). Completely negates one attack or spell as an Immediate action by giving you Total Cover against it, breaking line of effect.

2. Not very much, far as I know. Why avoid the metamagic?

3. Why can't you just cast Haste?

4. You can hit an unwilling target (i.e. enemy) with any teleport spell, dimension door, plane shift, or damn near any spell you want. Melee touch attack + Saving throw. Note that Teleport and Dimension door list a Will save to negate, this is precisely because you can target enemies with it. Yes, this means you can use them to dump people into the sun, or the airless void of space, or even 1000 miles deep in the holy-water ocean in the first layer of Celestia.

[eggynack]

4. You can hit an unwilling target (i.e. enemy) with any teleport spell, dimension door, plane shift, or damn near any spell you want. Melee touch attack + Saving throw. Note that Teleport and Dimension door list a Will save to negate, this is precisely because you can target enemies with it. Yes, this means you can use them to dump people into the sun, or the airless void of space, or even 1000 miles deep in the holy-water ocean in the first layer of Celestia.
No, you can not. The target of polymorph is, "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures." Unwilling creatures are not target-able by the spell teleport, or dimension door. I don't know about other teleportation spells. The will save to negate is specifically and explicitly for objects

[Slipperychicken]

No, you can not. The target of polymorph is, "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures." Unwilling creatures are not target-able by the spell teleport, or dimension door. I don't know about other teleportation spells. The will save to negate is specifically and explicitly for objects

Well, I'll be damned. My gaming groups must have been doing it wrong for years now...

[CRtwenty]

Well, I'll be damned. My gaming groups must have been doing it wrong for years now...

There's a reason "Baleful Polymorph" exists ya'know. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

There's a reason "Baleful Polymorph" exists ya'know. :smalltongue:

I wasn't thinking of Polymorph there, just Teleport for which a Baleful version doesn't exist IIRC (I know about Baleful Transposition but that's not Teleport).

[Norin]

Baleful Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/balefulTeleport.htm) is a psionic power.

It does not work that way though, it's more of a damage effect.

[INoKnowNames]

1. Wings of Cover (Sorc 2, RotD). Completely negates one attack or spell as an Immediate action by giving you Total Cover against it, breaking line of effect.

3. Why can't you just cast Haste Fly?

Because the character I'm about to make won't actually have those spells on his spell list. I say Sorcerer, but it's a Bard-Sublime Chord. If only I could learn Lower Level Spells in Higher Level Slots, neither of these would be a concern...

That said, Wings of Cover is entirely perfect, if I can find some way to be able to gain access to that spell...


2. Not very much, far as I know. Why avoid the metamagic?

Because my feats are already planned out, and I quite simply have no room for Metamagic in my build. At least not Feats or Class Features; I suppose items could work if they don't get in the way of melee combat...


4. You can hit an unwilling target (i.e. enemy) with any teleport spell, dimension door, plane shift, or damn near any spell you want. Melee touch attack + Saving throw. Note that Teleport and Dimension door list a Will save to negate, this is precisely because you can target enemies with it. Yes, this means you can use them to dump people into the sun, or the airless void of space, or even 1000 miles deep in the holy-water ocean in the first layer of Celestia.

Yay!


No, you can not. The target of polymorph is, "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures." Unwilling creatures are not target-able by the spell teleport, or dimension door. I don't know about other teleportation spells. The will save to negate is specifically and explicitly for objects


Well, I'll be damned. My gaming groups must have been doing it wrong for years now...


There's a reason "Baleful Polymorph" exists ya'know. :smalltongue:


I wasn't thinking of Polymorph there, just Teleport for which a Baleful version doesn't exist IIRC (I know about Baleful Transposition but that's not Teleport).

Damn...

[Tarqiup Inua]

Stoneskin? If you have too much diamond dust on your hands... just remember not to haggle for the price. :P

(or pay the shopkeeper extra so it lasts for more castings :D)

[Ignis6669]

1) I'd like a Defensive Shield like spell that I can cast and use to absorb as much damage as possible. I know there are things like Mage Armor that make you hard to hit, but I'm looking for more of an immediate action "No, you didn't just kill me. You certainly almost did, though, but No". Sounds kinda cheesy, though, so I'd expect a trick like that to be found in the upper level spells, which is fine with me, I suppose.


If you don't need your familiar and aren't caught up on it being an actual spell you could consider the Spell Shield ACF. It lets you sack a spell to try and soak damage. I like it.

Edit: Sorry, Just saw that it's a sublime chord. Guess this won't help.

[Asrrin]

Wings of Cover really is the prime "Oh ****" button. by RAW, it even stops a Mage's Disjunction, which is amazing for a 2nd level spell slot. There really isn't any other spell to which you can so widely apply the answer, "No."

though not an immediate action, the Globe of Invulnerability line will also work to prevent things from harming you.

[Darth Stabber]

If you want to use cloud of knives, it mixes very well with fell drain or fell frighten, even without metamagic reducers, but without those cloud of knives is a rather disappointing spell.

[INoKnowNames]

Stoneskin? If you have too much diamond dust on your hands... just remember not to haggle for the price. :P

(or pay the shopkeeper extra so it lasts for more castings :D)

Stoneskin doesn't have the immediate "That was close; *a spell spot well spent"* effect that I'm looking for... and I'm not sure what the rest of what you said means.


If you don't need your familiar and aren't caught up on it being an actual spell you could consider the Spell Shield ACF. It lets you sack a spell to try and soak damage. I like it.

Edit: Sorry, Just saw that it's a sublime chord. Guess this won't help.

Not your fault. I should have mentioned that in the op post, actually.


Wings of Cover really is the prime "Oh ****" button. by RAW, it even stops a Mage's Disjunction, which is amazing for a 2nd level spell slot. There really isn't any other spell to which you can so widely apply the answer, "No."

Hm.... how does Wings of Cover work with Shadow Evocation? Because that could potentially still work... which would be awesome.


If you want to use cloud of knives, it mixes very well with fell drain or fell frighten, even without metamagic reducers, but without those cloud of knives is a rather disappointing spell.

Any way to access Fell Drain without the Feat?

*A Spell Slot Well Spent. Say that 10 times fast.*

[Asrrin]

Hm.... how does Wings of Cover work with Shadow Evocation? Because that could potentially still work... which would be awesome.

Instead of flat out saying "No," the person attacking or casting would get a will save. If they fail, it's a no. Not quite as good, but still great.



Any way to access Fell Drain without the Feat?

Rod of Metamagic?

[Darth Stabber]

Rod of Metamagic?

That's pretty much it, 1 rod gives 3/day. Not taking metmagic feats as a caster is a bit odd, but to each their own,

[Cruiser1]

Sorcerer Fly like Spell at 4th level or higher? And I'm not too interested in flying on a summoned mount, just because of the inconvenience falling from it without being able to fly causes.
Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm) is Sor/Wiz 5th level, and lasts 1hr per CL, so it's almost Persistent Fly. :smallsmile:

Wings of Cover really is the prime "Oh ****" button. by RAW, it even stops a Mage's Disjunction, which is amazing for a 2nd level spell slot.
No, Wings of Cover only breaks line of effect on something that targets you. Mage's Disjunction is an area effect. For area effects, Wings of Cover only gives you a bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

If you want to reliably stop a Mage's Disjunction from affecting you, use your immediate action (Lesser) Celerity to move out of the way. Or better yet use a Ring of Spell-Battle (CA) to redirect the area so it covers the caster. :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

EDIT: THIS IS MY PUNISHMENT FOR MAKING A POST AT 2 AM. I COME OFF LIKE AN IDIOT. The spell was not Haste, it was Fly. Somehow I tricked myself into thinking that it was Haste that I couldn't cast, when it was infact Fly that wouldn't be on my spell list, and as far as I know Fly is the best spell for... flight. And I'm not too interested in flying on a summoned mount, just because of the inconvenience falling from it without being able to fly causes..

Overland Flight (Sorc/Wiz 5) gives you hour/level flight.

Polymorph can get you a flying form for its duration.

[INoKnowNames]

Instead of flat out saying "No," the person attacking or casting would get a will save. If they fail, it's a no. Not quite as good, but still great.


No, Wings of Cover only breaks line of effect on something that targets you. Mage's Disjunction is an area effect. For area effects, Wings of Cover only gives you a bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Certainly a bit less broken that way. Still good enough that I'll take it. :smallsmile:


If you want to reliably stop a Mage's Disjunction from affecting you, use your immediate action (Lesser) Celerity to move out of the way. Or better yet use a Ring of Spell-Battle (CA) to redirect the area so it covers the caster. :smallamused:

I hate being dazed, but otherwise Celerity and it's relations are already on the list of things to get. The ring of Spell Battle sounds good... might invest in more Spellcraft Ranks.

(Yeah, low spellcraft and no metamagic feats: This is not a normal caster.)


Rod of Metamagic?


That's pretty much it, 1 rod gives 3/day. Not taking metmagic feats as a caster is a bit odd, but to each their own,

Fell Drain Cloud of Knives... that's pretty cool, even if I have to rely on an item to do it with this character. I can't argue with results! :smallsmile:

I suppose the only other main damaging move I can think of wanting to be able to do is damage at a long range. Like Magical Sniping.

And yeah, the build I have in mind just doesn't have room for feats. And that won't change even if you have suggestions for additional feats; it's just a sacrifice I'll have to make, and am fine with.


Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm) is Sor/Wiz 5th level, and lasts 1hr per CL, so it's almost Persistent Fly. :smallsmile:


Overland Flight (Sorc/Wiz 5) gives you hour/level flight.

Polymorph can get you a flying form for its duration.

Polymorph is a no (not interested in transforming too much; just a personal hang-up), but Overland Flight is awesome. Heck, I could Shadow Evocate Wings of Swift Flying if I wanted to...

Then the only thing that I'm -really- missing that I need is some way to teleport myself and a foe to a private space for the sake of forced melee combat... didn't the Drow in the comic teleport V to a private plane? Maybe I could combine that spell with dimensional lock or something....

For those better with mechanics but in need of a visual, think Dissidia's "Regnum Dei". Or Nasuverse' "Unlimited Blade Works".

[Asrrin]

No, Wings of Cover only breaks line of effect on something that targets you. Mage's Disjunction is an area effect. For area effects, Wings of Cover only gives you a bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

If you want to reliably stop a Mage's Disjunction from affecting you, use your immediate action (Lesser) Celerity to move out of the way. Or better yet use a Ring of Spell-Battle (CA) to redirect the area so it covers the caster. :smallamused:

No, Wings of Cover breaks LoE for "A single attack with a weapon, spell or power." It does not say it must target you. Also, It mentions that the enemy may choose to target the area around you, such as fireball. That is because Fireball has an area of "Spread." An enemy cannot target the area around you with a "Burst" because of total concealment.

[Cruiser1]

No, Wings of Cover breaks LoE for "A single attack with a weapon, spell or power." It does not say it must target you. Also, It mentions that the enemy may choose to target the area around you, such as fireball. That is because Fireball has an area of "Spread." An enemy cannot target the area around you with a "Burst" because of total concealment.
Actually, Wings of Cover says, "If your foe is about to attack YOU with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack, you can cast this spell". The spell does not apply to arbitrary spell effects that aren't aimed or targeted directly at you.

Also, the spell says, "The wings of force last just long enough to disrupt your foe's line of effect to YOU". The spell only disrupts the direct line of effect from the foe to you, as opposed to lines of effect from the side if an area spell is cast to your side.

When the enemy targets an area around you, such the Fireball example given in the spell, that's when you get the +8 AC and +4 Reflex (which don't help against Disjunction). Area spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) include both bursts and spreads, and the text of Wings of Cover makes no distinction between them.

[Asrrin]

Actually, Wings of Cover says, "If your foe is about to attack YOU with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack, you can cast this spell". The spell does not apply to arbitrary spell effects that aren't aimed or targeted directly at you.

Why are you deliberately misquoting the spell? The sentence immediately after that is the one I quoted. The attack must affect YOU, but never mentions you must be the target. Big difference. By your own wording WoC could not be used against a fireball because it's not aimed at you, yet the spell explicitly calls it out.



Also, the spell says, "The wings of force last just long enough to disrupt your foe's line of effect to YOU". The spell only disrupts the direct line of effect from the foe to you, as opposed to lines of effect from the side if an area spell is cast to your side.

And you misquote again. From the spell: "If your foe is about to attack you with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack, you can cast this spell immediately, creating a hemispherical barrier (or a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground) of force shaped like dragon wings."

It provides total concealment from all angles.




When the enemy targets an area around you, such the Fireball example given in the spell, that's when you get the +8 AC and +4 Reflex (which don't help against Disjunction). Area spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) include both bursts and spreads, and the text of Wings of Cover makes no distinction between them.

Again, Wings of Cover makes no reference to "Area Spells." Only that an opponent may attempt to target the area around you. A Burst spell by RAW cannot get around total concealment. A spread Spell can, and also an emanation affects you, though not because of LoE issues, but rather because it has a duration whereas WoC is instantaneous.

[Seatbelt]

4) A way to teleport someone you wish to fight privately to a private location and then teleport back. Is the idea of a forced teleport even possible in 3.5, let alone one that works in a combat setting? I've certainly had trouble finding any...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ice-crystal-teleport

[INoKnowNames]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ice-crystal-teleport

.... I now need to see if I can use a bit of Pathfinder material, because I think that might just be what the doctor ordered!

[Cruiser1]

Actually, Wings of Cover says, "If your foe is about to attack YOU with a melee, ranged, spell, or psionic attack, you can cast this spell".

Why are you deliberately misquoting the spell? The sentence immediately after that is the one I quoted. The attack must affect YOU
I didn't misquote anything. :smallsmile: My text above is from the third sentence of the Wings of Cover spell text (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/wings-of-cover--3100/).

The spell says it provides benefit when "a foe is about to attack you", which implies direct action toward you. If it allowed full benefit against area spells near you, not only would the spell not mention the special case lesser benefit for Fireball, but the sentence should say something like the benefit applies when "you're about to be affected by some spell". There's no reason otherwise to mention the foe, and mention attacking you (although I agree the spell doesn't specifically use the term "target" which makes it somewhat ambiguous).

"creating a hemispherical barrier (a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground) of force shaped like dragon wings."
It provides total concealment from all angles.
A Burst spell by RAW cannot get around total concealment. A spread Spell can
No, you mean to claim Wings of Cover provides total cover (blockage), not total concealment (hiding). An example of total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) is invisibility. An example of total cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) is being inside a Resilient Sphere.

Anyway, Wings of Cover can't provide "total cover from all angles". Case in point: Why does Fireball still affect you when you cast Wings of Cover? Answer: Being a spread, the Fireball flows around the blockage to touch you. Note there are two types of total cover: Total cover from one direction is if I duck behind a wall. I have total cover against my foe's arrows (which bounce off the wall), but not my foe's Fireball cast into the wall (which flows up and spreads over and around the wall). However, if I'm inside a Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm), I actually do have total cover in all directions. In that case Fireball doesn't affect me at all either, because even with its spread there's no gap to get inside it.

Wings of Cover can't provide total cover from all angles, because if it did the spell wouldn't allow Fireball to still affect you. Therefore Wings of Cover only provides partial blockage, as described in the spell, and area attacks may still affect you (and always will in the case of no-Reflex save Disjunction). I agree that seems to contradict the fluff of "a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground", but those words are just fluff to give an (inaccurate) image, instead of the crunch of how the spell works.

I'm reasonably certain Wings of Cover invokes Specific Beats General; area attacks bypass it despite attacking against total cover, because Wings of Cover takes the time to mention how they work against it instead of just letting you refer to the usual Cover rules.
The issue of Wings of Cover vs. area attacks has come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8807134&postcount=12). Note attacks bypassing total cover is already in the rules, in that situations that provide total cover frequently describe what things bypass it. For example, tower shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower) provide total cover against attacks, but not targetted spells or area attacks. Similarly, Wings of Cover provides total cover against melee and spells, but has an alternate lesser benefit against area attacks.

[INoKnowNames]

Cruisser, Assrin, while you guys despite that, any chance you can dispute something else for me?


Casting Time: 1 Standard Action


Casting Time: 1 Immediate Action

How does that work out?

[TuggyNE]

Wings of Cover can't provide total cover from all angles, because if it did the spell wouldn't allow Fireball to still affect you. Therefore Wings of Cover only provides partial blockage, as described in the spell, and area attacks may still affect you (and always will in the case of no-Reflex save Disjunction). I agree that seems to contradict the fluff of "a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground", but those words are just fluff to give an (inaccurate) image, instead of the crunch of how the spell works.

While I'm pretty sure you're correct about the limitations of wings of cover, the point is irrelevant: Mordenkainen's disjunction is a burst, unlike fireball's spread, and is thus incapable of affecting anything with total cover from its origin point. Since wings of cover, logically, would be arranged to give total cover from the origin point of the attack, the defense works just fine: total immunity.