Do we have the Gates all backwards?

[Peelee]

From everything we've been told, the purpose of the Gates is to keep the Snarl in. With what we've seen, a world within the rift, is it possible that the purpose of the Gates was instead to keep everyone else out? The IFCC have openly stated (and I have no reason to doubt) that they are apathetic to who wins or loses, so long as there is maximum conflict. A theory (not a very likely one, but for the purposes of an example it will suffice) would be a world within the rift that is lacking in all deities and planar beings - they do not have the protection of the good gods, but also not the temptations and perversions of the evil ones. The IFCC could potentially know about the true nature of the world, and if all the Gates need to be destroyed to actually cross worlds, could actively want the Gates sundered so they could have a whole second planet to spread their evilness.

Such a theory doesn't address what happened to Kraagor or why the Order of the Scribble fell apart, which is why I think it's not a very good one. But is it probable that the Gates were built to protect the world within the rift, and not the OotS world? And if so, to what ends?

[King of Nowhere]

Soon's wife was killed by the snarl. We have independent confirmation of its existance from different pantheons of gods and from the order of the scribble. I don't think the snarl could be a machination. I think it more likely that something happened to it. maybe the threads of reality that made the snarl got rearranged to form the planet, or something.

[Peelee]

Soon's wife was killed by the snarl. We have independent confirmation of its existance from different pantheons of gods and from the order of the scribble. I don't think the snarl could be a machination. I think it more likely that something happened to it. maybe the threads of reality that made the snarl got rearranged to form the planet, or something.

We have independent second-hand accounts. We've been told Soon's wife was killed by it, and we know the Dark One, by all appearances, believes it to be true. We have no confirmation whatsoever. Unless you can link to a strip where someone has both seen or interacted with the Snarl and also directly tells someone in-strip. Crayon drawings are all stories and rememberances. They may be incorrect, or not exactly as we see.

Soon's wife and Kraagor definitely died. We are told by the Snarl. They could have died of something dealing with the rift that was not necessarily the Snarl.

[NerdyKris]

Soon's wife was killed by the snarl.

According to a story passed down from the Order of the Scribble, and told by a man known to lie. Same with Redcloak describing it. Dark One may have misled him as well.


We have independent confirmation of its existance from different pantheons of gods

One pantheon and the Dark One. Both told to us by mortals who aren't very trustworthy. Notice Thor hasn't said squat about it to his favorite dwarf yet?


and from the order of the scribble.

You mean from Shojo, a deciever, claiming to speak for the Order of the Scribble.

We actually only know of the Snarl from two sources, both of them highly suspect. The only member of the Order we've heard from directly about it seems to have some rather cryptic statements about the rifts and what actually killed Kraagor.

[Peelee]

According to a story passed down from the Order of the Scribble, and told by a man known to lie. Same with Redcloak describing it. Dark One may have misled him as well.



One pantheon and the Dark One. Both told to us by mortals who aren't very trustworthy. Notice Thor hasn't said squat about it to his favorite dwarf yet?



You mean from Shojo, a deciever, claiming to speak for the Order of the Scribble.

We actually only know of the Snarl from two sources, both of them highly suspect. The only member of the Order we've heard from directly about it seems to have some rather cryptic statements about the rifts and what actually killed Kraagor.

Exactly. And thrillhouse actually posted an excellent theory on the same idea as mine, only in the Planet within the gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15518225#post15518225) thread. Which probably makes this one redundant now.

[Roland Itiative]

All of this new doubt placed on the backstory we were taught made me think, what if the creature we know as the Snarl actually existed, but not as a god-killing abomination, instead just as a guardian of the rifts? The Order of the Scribble might very well have killed it, and then decided to make the Gates in order to protect whatever it is the Snarl was originally protecting (in a less aggressive way), while keeping the "god-killing abomination" tale going as an extra protection measure.

The only hole I can see in this story is that Soon, a Paladin, was unlikely to accept going on with this deception. But then again, does any Paladin ever show knowledge of the "secret lore of the Sapphire Guard", or do we just hear it from Shojo's mouth, while the actual Sapphire Guard are just preocupied with protecting the Gates, never stating a reason?

This idea does get rid of something that always was very fishy about the Snarl: its ability to kill gods effortlessly, while mortals are apparently able to survive against it. If the Snarl was god-made (well, willingly) after all, this could just be another lie, to justify why they did nothing about the random killings.

[ORione]

Whatever's going on, I doubt that the IFCC knows more than we do. They got their information from Sabine, who got it from Nale, who got it from Shojo.

[Roland Itiative]

They certainly know everything the Order does, via Nale, possibly know about the world within the Gates, since they seem to have been scrying on V at all times since before the Splice incident. But the IFCC is supposed to be more than the three directors, Sabine and Quarr, they might have conducted all sorts of research into the nature of the rifts (maybe sending some fiends to Lyrian's glade, which is apparently completely forgotten by every party fighting for Gate control, maybe contacting some evil souls that dealt with the rifts back when the Order of the Scribble was active), so it's not impossible that they know more than all mortal parties by now, even if they're not on-par with the gods' knowledge.

[Ted The Bug]

Ooh, I really like this theory! It would be a nice expansion of the already-interesting alignment system discussion.

[NerdyKris]

Exactly. And thrillhouse actually posted an excellent theory on the same idea as mine, only in the Planet within the gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15518225#post15518225) thread. Which probably makes this one redundant now.

Hey, someone else shares my crazy pet theory! :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Whatever's going on, I doubt that the IFCC knows more than we do. They got their information from Sabine, who got it from Nale, who got it from Shojo.

It's never stated they got all their information through that line. It's very possible (and in my mind, likely) that they knew about it long before, possibly since the Order of the Scribble sealed the rifts or even earlier.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This kind of reminds be of this old TV miniseries, I can't recall most of the names of the characters but bare with me.

The conflict was over a McGuffin called the The Nullifier its pieces scattered throughout time and space and when assembled is capable of destroying all creation. The hero team was fairly standard.
The kindly old scientist from the 25th century, a teenage boy from the 20th century names Josh Kerby who was also the protagonist and a warrior girl from some distance place in time and space who was a few years older then the protagonist and functioned as the love interest.

The main villain was this very arrogant African American scientist who was said to be the greatest genius of the 25th century but also a criminal mastermind. He often gave the hero Josh some speech about how they should be working together. Again fairly standard.

Then in the final episode we learn the weapon was already assembled and being used in the future by an Evil Technocracy Empire to dominate the world. The Nullifier wasn't actually a weapon it was designed to nullify the real weapon.

The kindly old good scientist was in fact evil and had tricked the heroes into helping him. He wanted to gather the pieces of the Nullifer so no one could oppose the Technocracy in the future. While the evil scientist was in fact good and wanted to destroy the real weapon so he could liberate the 25th century. But admittedly he was still an an arrogant jerk.

The point is that everything we've they've been told about the Gate could be a lie. The gate might not even contain another planet, it could contain the very planet the Order is Standing on. Or each gate contains a different plane of existence and destroying them causes them all to merge in some horrific fashion.

[Zephyr1011]

This kind of reminds be of this old TV miniseries, I can't recall most of the names of the characters but bare with me.

The conflict was over a McGuffin called the The Nullifier its pieces scattered throughout time and space and when assembled is capable of destroying all creation. The hero team was fairly standard.
The kindly old scientist from the 25th century, a teenage boy from the 20th century names Josh Kerby who was also the protagonist and a warrior girl from some distance place in time and space who was a few years older then the protagonist and functioned as the love interest.

The main villain was this very arrogant African American scientist who was said to be the greatest genius of the 25th century but also a criminal mastermind. He often gave the hero Josh some speech about how they should be working together. Again fairly standard.

Then in the final episode we learn the weapon was already assembled and being used in the future by an Evil Technocracy Empire to dominate the world. The Nullifier wasn't actually a weapon it was designed to nullify the real weapon.

The kindly old good scientist was in fact evil and had tricked the heroes into helping him. He wanted to gather the pieces of the Nullifer so no one could oppose the Technocracy in the future. While the evil scientist was in fact good and wanted to destroy the real weapon so he could liberate the 25th century. But admittedly he was still an an arrogant jerk.

The point is that everything we've they've been told about the Gate could be a lie. The gate might not even contain another planet, it could contain the very planet the Order is Standing on. Or each gate contains a different plane of existence and destroying them causes them all to merge in some horrific fashion.

After googling Josh Kerby and The Nullifier, I found a series of films called Josh Kirby... Time Warrior!, which looks like that.

[Tragak]

I think that Shojo was certainly telling what he believed to be the truth, since protecting the world from a doomsday ritual depends on giving accurate information to the only people who have fought and lived against the person trying to use it.

Since he got his information from his father (presumably a paladin), who got it from Soon (definitely a paladin), and those two would certainly not lie to somebody tasked with directly safe-guarding the focus of such a ritual, and since Soon was also an eye-witness, we can presume that some great monster was definitely part of the Snarl-world at some point.

[Porthos]

This kind of reminds be of this old TV miniseries, I can't recall most of the names of the characters but bare with me.

The conflict was over a McGuffin called the The Nullifier its pieces scattered throughout time and space and when assembled is capable of destroying all creation. The hero team was fairly standard.
The kindly old scientist from the 25th century, a teenage boy from the 20th century names Josh Kerby who was also the protagonist and a warrior girl from some distance place in time and space who was a few years older then the protagonist and functioned as the love interest.

The main villain was this very arrogant African American scientist who was said to be the greatest genius of the 25th century but also a criminal mastermind. He often gave the hero Josh some speech about how they should be working together. Again fairly standard.

Then in the final episode we learn the weapon was already assembled and being used in the future by an Evil Technocracy Empire to dominate the world. The Nullifier wasn't actually a weapon it was designed to nullify the real weapon.

The kindly old good scientist was in fact evil and had tricked the heroes into helping him. He wanted to gather the pieces of the Nullifer so no one could oppose the Technocracy in the future. While the evil scientist was in fact good and wanted to destroy the real weapon so he could liberate the 25th century. But admittedly he was still an an arrogant jerk.

The point is that everything we've they've been told about the Gate could be a lie. The gate might not even contain another planet, it could contain the very planet the Order is Standing on. Or each gate contains a different plane of existence and destroying them causes them all to merge in some horrific fashion.


After googling Josh Kerby and The Nullifier, I found a series of films called Josh Kirby... Time Warrior!, which looks like that.

*checks Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Kirby..._Time_Warrior!)*

Huh. That doesn't sound familiar at ALL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who:_The_Key_to_Time). :smalltongue:

Probably not close enough to summon Jones and Rodriguez. But it's not exactly far off. :smallwink:

[137beth]

They certainly know everything the Order does, via Nale, possibly know about the world within the Gates, since they seem to have been scrying on V at all times since before the Splice incident. But the IFCC is supposed to be more than the three directors, Sabine and Quarr, they might have conducted all sorts of research into the nature of the rifts (maybe sending some fiends to Lyrian's glade, which is apparently completely forgotten by every party fighting for Gate control, maybe contacting some evil souls that dealt with the rifts back when the Order of the Scribble was active), so it's not impossible that they know more than all mortal parties by now, even if they're not on-par with the gods' knowledge.

It's also possible they have been able to gain access to more information about the gates after learning of their existence--possibly in a way similar to the Dark One.

[Lord Vukodlak]

*checks Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Kirby..._Time_Warrior!)*

Huh. That doesn't sound familiar at ALL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who:_The_Key_to_Time). :smalltongue:

Probably not close enough to summon Jones and Rodriguez. But it's not exactly far off. :smallwink:

Actually yes it is far off aside from finding pieces of the Dismantled MacGuffin its entirely different.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Actually yes it is far off aside from finding pieces of the Dismantled MacGuffin its entirely different.
And the good guy who sent you on the quest turning out to be evil. And the time travel thing. I haven't seen Josh Kirby so I'll take your word that it's distinct enough to simply be an independent exploration of similar themes, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it like "Both rings are round and there the similarity ends"

[Lord Vukodlak]

And the good guy who sent you on the quest turning out to be evil."

Except that's not what happens in the Doctor Who Serial.
The White Guardian(not evil) gives the doctor the task of retrieving the pieces of the McGuffin. Once the Doctor had assembled all the pieces the Black Guardian(evil) disguised himself as the White Guardian to try and trick the doctor into handing it over. The Doctor instead scattered them through time again. No one is revealed to be evil all along. The villain just disguised himself his counterpart in the final episode.

The real point of my bringing up the corny old mini-series was the Nullifier is first told to be this weapon that can control or destroy the universe when in fact its true purpose is to eliminate the Devastator the real weapon that can destroy or control the universe.

Its possible that our presumption that the gates and snarl have some sinister purpose could be wrong. What if Snarl was in fact a force of good which wanted to eliminate the gods for the good of mortals who are often used as mere pawns.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Except that's not what happens in the Doctor Who Serial.
The White Guardian(not evil) gives the doctor the task of retrieving the pieces of the McGuffin. Once the Doctor had assembled all the pieces the Black Guardian(evil) disguised himself as the White Guardian to try and trick the doctor into handing it over. The Doctor instead scattered them through time again. No one is revealed to be evil all along. The villain just disguised himself his counterpart in the final episode.
If the White Guardian was really the one who gave the quest, then scattering the pieces again would be silly. I always interpreted it as the Black Guardian was always the one behind it all and the White Guardian had nothing to do with it.

[Miriel]

According to a story passed down from the Order of the Scribble, and told by a man known to lie. Same with Redcloak describing it. Dark One may have misled him as well.



One pantheon and the Dark One. Both told to us by mortals who aren't very trustworthy. Notice Thor hasn't said squat about it to his favorite dwarf yet?



You mean from Shojo, a deciever, claiming to speak for the Order of the Scribble.

We actually only know of the Snarl from two sources, both of them highly suspect. The only member of the Order we've heard from directly about it seems to have some rather cryptic statements about the rifts and what actually killed Kraagor.
Shojo and Redcloak have the same story. It is highly unlikely that they came up with the same lie. The fact that Shojo is a known deceiver doesn't enter into it.

Redcloak learned about it from the Dark One, who was informed by the gods. Shojo derives his information from the Order of the Scribble. We don't know how they learned anything, but it is unlikely that they were told by the Dark One or his goblin followers. Getting information from the gods, however, seems plausible. Ultimately, the gods are the only reliable source of information on this, since they were the only ones there at the time.

If anyone has lied, that would be the gods (possibly including, but probably excluding the Dark One).

[martianmister]

Maybe they get their information from Redcloak's predecessor?