Natural attack rules questions - Pathfinder

[Cedict]

I was taking a look into making a Catfolk Fighter using the catfolk claws. I know using two feats to get to 1d8 damage is not great, but i wanna try this concept out.

As i work this out in herolab, i take Aspect of the Beast (claws) and notice it brings up another claw attack. and has both added as primary attacks. Hows that work? On a full attack, attacking with all natural weapons, do i now get 4 claw attacks? There is no penalty listed to hit either. Do i get full BAB on all attacks? would on set of claws have to become secondary? do i need Multiattack at this point?

Any help would be great. This just sounds to broken to be true.

~Cedict

[Deepbluediver]

The natural attack rules are a little odd, certainly. Most of my DM's just used a houserule version to make it progress like a normal BAB based on HD. So I'm also looking forward to some simplified explanation. I know that you don't get all your attacks at full BAB; I think that with both feats, it's something like 1 normal attack at full BAB, and then any subsequent follow-up attacks at -5 to full BAB.

But definitely don't quote me on that.

[Cedict]

Just found this here: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/21784/how-do-multiple-natural-attacks-work

"Natural Attacks are weird. The pathfinder rules break down what happens.

Instead of using the iterative attacks from your base attack bonus, you get a full attack made up of all the natural attacks. The particular bonus depends on whether those attacks are considered primary or secondary (see the table at the link above).

In the Oliphaunt's case when you make a full attack, you get one Gore at your normal attack bonus and two Stomps at your normal attack bonus - 5.

Things get weirder when you mix natural and weapon attacks (a Marilith for instance). When you full attack, you use all of your iterative attacks, then the natural attacks from limbs that are not holding any weapons. Those natural attacks are made as secondary attacks, no matter what they are normally.
"

Seems to give a bit of insight, but i have no idea if that guy has his head on right.

[Cedict]

The natural attack rules are a little odd, certainly. Most of my DM's just used a houserule version to make it progress like a normal BAB based on HD. So I'm also looking forward to some simplified explanation. I know that you don't get all your attacks at full BAB; I think that with both feats, it's something like 1 normal attack at full BAB, and then any subsequent follow-up attacks at -5 to full BAB.

But definitely don't quote me on that.


Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

Table lists Claw as a primary attack, therefore attacks made are with full BAB, am i wrong?

[Infernalbargain]

I believe that if you are wielding a weapon, you can make the natural attacks in addition but they are treated as secondary.

[Cedict]

I believe that if you are wielding a weapon, you can make the natural attacks in addition but they are treated as secondary.

There are no weapons involved but natural ones

[Lord Vukodlak]

Keep in mind your using third party software which can't necessarily anticipate the actual rules for a game.

You already have claws as a catfolk, now aspect of the beast doesn't say what happens if you already have claw attacks. But typically these kind of effects don't stack. A lizardman given the half-dragon template doesn't gain extra claw attacks.

The advanced players guide has this Catfolk Exemplar (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/catfolk.html) Which basically duplicates the effects of Aspect Of The Beast except for one part.


Sharp Claws (Ex): If you do not have the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation from the Aspect of the Beast feat , you gain the cat's claws racial trait. If you have either the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation, your claw damage increases to 1d6.

However that simply tells us how Catfolk Exemplar stacks with aspect of the beast or the Cat's Claws racial traits. It doesn't say how aspect of the beast stacks with already having claws. In theory taking aspect of the beast could give you claws on your feet so when combined with your hands you'd have four claw attacks all at your primary base attack bonus.

[grarrrg]

herolab

Not the best place when it comes to tricky rulings and such...


Combining Catfolk Claws and Aspect of the Beast Claws (and any of the dozen more ways to gain Claws...)...
Claws are assumed to be added to the Hands (note: I have yet to see an official ruling on this, but it makes sense for the most part, if this is PFS, assume only 1 pair, otherwise, ask your DM).

Each Hand may only ever benefit from 1 Claw (or other weapon) at a time, i.e. if you have a 1d4 Claw on your Right hand, and a 1d6 Claw on your Right hand, you can use either, but NOT both (if your Claw-Hand is holding a Manufactured weapon, then you may only use the Manufactured weapon).

If you are ONLY using Natural attacks, then ALL Primary Natural attacks use your Full Bab +/- Modifiers, and ALL Secondary Natural attacks use Full Bab -5.

If you use _any_ Manufactured weapons, then ALL of your Natural attacks are now Secondary, and subject to the -5 to-hit penalty.

The Multiattack feat reduces the Secondary Penalty to -2 to-hit.



End Result: you get 2 Claw attacks at Full Bab (if you use no Manufactured weapons)

[Wagadodo]

I think you had it right the first time. Under the Catfolk Exemplar feat. If you have either Cat Claws racial trait, or Aspect of the Beast it raises your damage up to 1d6. So just going from that I would imagine it would be raising it up to the next highest die.

Also unless you are a Ranger and take aspect of the beast as your bonus feat, you could not qualify for the Aspect of the beast since you do not have Wildshape nor a lycanthrope. So it might be mute point unless house ruling, which would not be that out there to do.

So you might be maxed out at 1d6 damage, unless house ruling, and I would jump up the damage to 1d8 the two feats and the racial claws.

So two attacks at 1d8 at your highest BAB is not to bad. Specially since you can do two attacks at first level. And you don't have to half your power attack for the second attack. The only time you would be losing out is when your can get the third attack as you level.

Add on Edit: It helps that Catfolk have claw blades that can be enchanted like a weapon. So you might just want to add one feat on, then down the road get the claw blades to up the damage with magic.

[grarrrg]

I think you had it right the first time. Under the Catfolk Exemplar feat. If you have either Cat Claws racial trait, or Aspect of the Beast it raises your damage up to 1d6. So just going from that I would imagine it would be raising it up to the next highest die.

It does not say that having both makes it 1d8, so therefore it stays at 1d6.
You can still take "Improved Natural Attack" to bump them up a notch though.


Also unless you are a Ranger and take aspect of the beast as your bonus feat, you could not qualify for the Aspect of the beast since you do not have Wildshape nor a lycanthrope.

The first line of the Catfolk Exemplar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/catfolk-exemplar-catfolk) feat says "You can take the Aspect of the Beast feat even if you do not meet the normal prerequisites."

So one could, presumably, NOT have the Claws Racial trait, but take the Catfolk Exemplar feat, choosing Claws to get the basic 1d4 Claws, and then later take the Aspect of the Beast feat to up the Claws to 1d6.


So two attacks at 1d8 at your highest BAB is not to bad. Specially since you can do two attacks at first level. And you don't have to half your power attack for the second attack. The only time you would be losing out is when your can get the third attack as you level.

Again, it does not say 1d8, so it'd be two attacks at 1d6.
Natural attacks do NOT benefit from Iteratives. You get ONE attack per Natural weapon on a Full Attack, regardless of your Bab.
2 Claws with 1 Bab is 2 attacks total.
2 Claws with 20 Bab is 2 attacks total.

Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final) does give all Primary Natural attacks "full" bonus to damage, as if using a 1-handed weapon. All Secondary Naturals only get "half" bonus to damage.


Add on Edit: It helps that Catfolk have claw blades that can be enchanted like a weapon. So you might just want to add one feat on, then down the road get the claw blades to up the damage with magic.

As per the Claw Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/claw-blades) description, your Claws STOP being Natural Attacks, and become treated as "light slashing" attacks.
This would mean you WOULD get Iteratives, BUT in order to use both Claws, you would now need Two-Weapon Fighting to avoid MASSIVE penalties (and your off-hand Claws would only get 'half' bonus from Power Attacking).

[Lord Vukodlak]

So one could, presumably, NOT have the Claws Racial trait, but take the Catfolk Exemplar feat, choosing Claws to get the basic 1d4 Claws, and then later take the Aspect of the Beast feat to up the Claws to 1d6.
Ah but here is the issue from the OP

He's a catfolk with the Cat's Claws alternate racial trait. He then takes the catfolk exemplar feat and picks sharp claws making them 1d6. He then also qualifies for Aspect of the Beast.
What happens when he takes Aspect of the Beast and picks claws?

Lets simplify this by removing exemplar from the equation. He's a catfolk ranger with the cat claw's racial trait and he takes aspect of the beast(claws). One of three things must happen.
He has four claw attacks,
The damage on his two claws increases one step
Nothing.
The issue is. Aspect of the Beast does not address what happens if you already have claws.

[grarrrg]

Ah but here is the issue from the OP

He's a catfolk with the Cat's Claws alternate racial trait. He then takes the catfolk exemplar feat and picks sharp claws making them 1d6. He then also qualifies for Aspect of the Beast.
What happens when he takes Aspect of the Beast and picks claws?...

:smallsigh:

[scrolls three posts up, copy/paste]



Combining Catfolk Claws and Aspect of the Beast Claws (and any of the dozen more ways to gain Claws...)...
Claws are assumed to be added to the Hands (note: I have yet to see an official ruling on this, but it makes sense for the most part, if this is PFS, assume only 1 pair, otherwise, ask your DM).

Each Hand may only ever benefit from 1 Claw (or other weapon) at a time, i.e. if you have a 1d4 Claw on your Right hand, and a 1d6 Claw on your Right hand, you can use either, but NOT both (if your Claw-Hand is holding a Manufactured weapon, then you may only use the Manufactured weapon).


You can "have" as many Claws as you can get, but you only ever use ONE Claw per arm.

Ridiculous example that I am reduced to making:
A Catfolk Ranger/Alchemist/Barbarian/Sorcerer
Cats Claws from Catfolk
Aspect of the Beast Claws (gotten through Ranger)
Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen) Claws from Alchemist
Lesser Beast Totem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su) Claws from Barbarian
'Claws' Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline) power from Sorcerer

You have 2 arms. 5 "claw attacks" per hand.
But you can only ever make a grand total of TWO Claw attacks per Full-Attack, because there can only ever be one "attack" per hand/arm.

There is NO "10 claw attacks".
There is NO damage stacking.
You _can_ choose which claws to use (I'd go for the Mutagen or the Beast Totem as they are 1d6's).

The only feat which mentions "extra damage" is Catfolk Exemplar, and that _only_ says that if you have X or Y that the damage improves. It does NOT say if you have both that it improves again.

If you find a way to gain Extra Arms, then you can _possibly_ get an extra Claw attack per extra Arm.
Of the two ways I know of to gain Extra Arms:
One requires 10 levels of Summoner for the Aspect ability.
The other is Alchemist with Vestigial Arm, which specifically forbids getting extra attacks anyway.

[Lord Vukodlak]

snip

Claws on his feet... your move.

Your rant was impressive but nonetheless did nothing to address what happens if someone with claws takes aspect of the beast using the actual Rules of The Game. Its something the pathfinder rules simply don't address. In 3.5 when a template or something gave you claws or a bite it said what happened if a creature already had these attack forms. Pathfinder does not do this,

And with catfolk we have a very specific combination.

They can have claws innately as a racial trait, take a feat that lets them qualify for aspect of the beast which can also grant them claws. Exemplar says what happens if you have aspect of the beast claws or the racial trait claws but is silent on what happens if you have both which is a problem. Its quite different then combining three or four different classes together its a feat tree that's tied together.

[grarrrg]

Claws on his feet... your move.

[re-copy/re-paste]

Claws are assumed to be added to the Hands (note: I have yet to see an official ruling on this, but it makes sense for the most part, if this is PFS, assume only 1 pair, otherwise, ask your DM).

To follow your logic, I can put Claws on my Face and my Back, and grow them out my arse as well while I'm at it. Because they don't "specifically say they go on your hands".

I agree that Claws on the Feet would be the 2nd least silly place to grow them, and _IF_ you can get your DM to agree that your character can manage to 'double jump kick' while Full Attacking, then good for you.

But if you are making a character for an Officially sanctioned Society game, then you will almost certainly be limited to Claws on the Hands only, regardless of how many times you can get Claws.


Your rant was impressive but nonetheless did nothing to address what happens if someone with claws takes aspect of the beast using the actual Rules of The Game.

Actually, it DOES address the actual "Rules of The Game.

The absence of something does not in and of itself create more of something.

Exemplar does NOT say that anything happens for having both, therefore, NOTHING HAPPENS for having both.

And my "rants" HAVE covered this.

It does not say that having both makes it 1d8, so therefore it stays at 1d6.
...
Again, it does not say 1d8, so it'd be two attacks at 1d6.

The only feat which mentions "extra damage" is Catfolk Exemplar, and that _only_ says that if you have X or Y that the damage improves. It does NOT say if you have both that it improves again.

[Wagadodo]

So I totally missed being allowed to take the Aspect of the Beast feat.

If I was running a game and a player wanted to stack all three things I would house rule it up to a 1d8.

Truthfully, it might better to just keep the 1d4 and to try to add additional damage to the back end instead of raising the damage dice. Might be better to go with the Weapon Specializations range to increase your damage.

[Lord Vukodlak]

And my "rants" HAVE covered this.

No they don't first I wasn't arguing about the damage

Aspect of The Beast doesn't say what happens if you already have claws. The catfolk exemplar feat is irrelevant except for being used as a prerequisite. Effects that grant claws in pathfinder often fail to say what happens if you already have claws unlike 3.5. Nothing you've said has addressed that hole in the rules.
If you have claws and take aspect of the beast(claws) the rules don't mention what happens so its entirely the DM's domain as nothing in the rules says what happens.


To follow your logic, I can put Claws on my Face and my Back, and grow them out my arse as well while I'm at it. Because they don't "specifically say they go on your hands".

Lots of creatures including cats, have claws on there feet. Outside of dinosaurs and fantasy creatures animals with claws have them on their feet.


I agree that Claws on the Feet would be the 2nd least silly place to grow them, and _IF_ you can get your DM to agree that your character can manage to 'double jump kick' while Full Attacking, then good for you.
If a human can kick you in the face, a humanoid with claws on his feet can slash you in the face.

[Hruken]

While there is no official FAQ clarification on the subject, claws go on hands, talons go on feet. Here are a couple of developer posts on the subject: Link 1 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=466?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#23274) and Link 2 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oyuu?In-need-of-examples-of-bipedal-creatures-from#8)

Again, neither are official rulings, but the intent is clear.

Also, while cats have hind claws, they are used for rakes, which is why (to me, at least) the large cats stat blocks have rake.

[grarrrg]

While there is no official FAQ clarification on the subject, claws go on hands, talons go on feet. Here are a couple of developer posts on the subject: Link 1 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=466?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#23274) and Link 2 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oyuu?In-need-of-examples-of-bipedal-creatures-from#8)

Again, neither are official rulings, but the intent is clear.

Thank you.


Lots of creatures including cats, have claws on there feet. Outside of dinosaurs and fantasy creatures animals with claws have them on their feet.

Quadruped animals attack with Foot-Claws is a lot different than a Humanoid attacking with Foot-Claws.
And while the Quad's Claws are on their feet, they usually attack with the Front Feet (the "hands"), and more rarely make full use of their Back Feet (the "feet-feet").



If a human can kick you in the face, a humanoid with claws on his feet can slash you in the face.

And while a Humanoid can very well kick you, I'd find it quite difficult to be able to kick you TWICE, while also Hand-Clawing twice.
Possible? Yes.
Plausible? Less-so.