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Jon_Dahl
2013-06-28, 03:22 PM
This is a bit D&D 3.x specific, but not too much...

My players have bought a simple house from a large city. This house, according to the rules, should have one to three rooms.

Can you give me a general design on how such homes should be? This should be fairly low class, something where an average crafter would live with his or her family.

I was thinking about something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/lD7JZtD.png?1
The picture was done rather hastily, please excuse me. And yes, the upper section of the house of bigger than the lower one. I think it should be like that, don't you agree?

Spiryt
2013-06-28, 03:41 PM
If this is average crafter house, it probably needs some space do to the crafting. Table, room, etc.

Separate bedrooms, or even bedrooms in general, actually weren't particularly popular in "Medieval" Europe as whole.

warty goblin
2013-06-28, 04:34 PM
This may be of some use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Merchant%27s_House), although it's probably a bit upper class for your purposes. There are also a number of peasant cottages surviving from this period in England as well.

Slipperychicken
2013-06-28, 07:12 PM
Separate bedrooms, or even bedrooms in general, actually weren't particularly popular in "Medieval" Europe as whole.

This. Privacy is a pretty modern concept. Back in those days, I'm pretty sure most people couldn't afford personal rooms, and instead slept in a some common area.

Also, the floor plan in the OP has 4 rooms (5 if you count the long hallway). In dnd terms, that describes a Grand House (5,000gp for 4-10 rooms).

TheThan
2013-06-28, 07:17 PM
For a single floor house, I’d just make one big open room with a large hearth taking up a portion of one wall. The single room acts as a dining room, living room and bedrooms for everyone. You can add cooking implements against the wall with the hearth (a Dutch oven or caldron for cooking stews), a wooden table with two benches, and a rocking chair or two for the adults of the house to sit by the fire.

Granted this greatly depends on how upscale you want to make it.

Avaris
2013-06-28, 07:18 PM
Honestly, on the rooms front, the kitchen probbly wouldn't be seperate either: want heat from the fire for the whole building and allows you to watch the kids whilst cooking. Suspect a seperate larder or celler would exist though.

fusilier
2013-06-28, 08:33 PM
You might want to look at more renaissance patterns, and the old 2e AD&D A Mighty Fortress sourcebook has some city/town house plans in it.

However, the main thing that I see wrong on your plan is the hallway -- for the most part they didn't have them, they were just a waste of space. Instead, you would pass through one room to reach another. Usually the ground floor was for the shop, maybe a kitchen. The next floor up (which is either first, or second depending upon where you live), would be the nicest floor -- after that they got cheaper and more sparse.

Artificial lighting wasn't very good, so every room should have windows. In a city this would usually be limited to the front and back.

Your design isn't too bad -- if you rearrange it slightly. Put the kitchen at the back, behind the dining room, not alongside it. Better yet, rotate the design, making the front entrance where you have the stairs -- most city houses had narrow fronts compared to the "depth" of the house (although not necessarily).

Upstairs, eliminate the hallway, and just have the stairs enter into one of the rooms. Have a door joining the two rooms together.

If it's a craftsman's house, the dining room becomes the workshop/store, and one of the upstairs rooms can become a dining room/bed room. Most furnishings were pretty spare, and typically could be knocked down or packed away to quickly make room. The dining table and benches may even serve for sleeping upon.

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-29, 12:27 AM
Thank you for ideas everyone! :smallsmile: I just have one little doubt:
Some of you have suggested that the ground floor should be a workshop. I'm fine with that (it's a good idea), but... would it be possible that the crafter actually works in a guild house with other crafters? That way his/her home would be just a home, and his/her actual work place would somewhere else, with other crafters.

Good/bad idea? What do you think? The crafter works at home or at a guild/other specific area.

Note: The crafter in question is a weaver (I don't know if that makes any difference).

warty goblin
2013-06-29, 01:29 AM
Weavers I believe primarily worked from home. The only raw material needed is thread, which can be spun out on site. Far more efficient to have the family and tenants employed in spinning what you need right there. Spinning, the processing of washed and carded wool into thread, is going to be the real lion's share of the work during the middle ages (and previously for that matter). It takes a long time to spin with a drop spindle, and after that the thread needs to be plied into yarn. A single strand of string is not itself particularly strong; you'd want to twist it with other strands into a heavier, tougher yarn. Use too fine a yarn, and you risk breaking warp threads, which is not a good thing.

At some point you'd probably want to get the stuff died as well. You can die woven fabric, but it's harder to get the color to take uniformly, so the better choice is to dye the plied yarn. In either case, dyeing was I think a fairly centralized affair. Not only does it require a variety of unpleasant chemicals, but big vats capable of holding large quantities of dye and yarn. Not something you want to try to fit into the kitchen if you're producing on a large scale.

fusilier
2013-06-29, 03:14 AM
Thank you for ideas everyone! :smallsmile: I just have one little doubt:
Some of you have suggested that the ground floor should be a workshop. I'm fine with that (it's a good idea), but... would it be possible that the crafter actually works in a guild house with other crafters? That way his/her home would be just a home, and his/her actual work place would somewhere else, with other crafters.

Good/bad idea? What do you think? The crafter works at home or at a guild/other specific area.

Note: The crafter in question is a weaver (I don't know if that makes any difference).


Some digging around on the internet indicates that originally weavers worked from home, but by the end of the middle ages (which unfortunately was unspecified) they were beginning to work in workshops. So it's up to you -- or your DM. :-)

EDIT--
See here:
http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/pabacker/history/middle.htm

some guy
2013-06-29, 05:05 AM
Here is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-bed) a wikipedia page on box-beds, you could use those to save on rooms and still have some privacy.

mjlush
2013-06-29, 05:17 AM
This is a bit D&D 3.x specific, but not too much...
My players have bought a simple house from a large city. This house, according to the rules, should have one to three rooms.

Google is your friend is often used as a put down In this case I offer it as a hot tip:smallsmile:

Variations on the Google Image search medieval house floor plan (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=medieval+house+floor+plans&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vrHOUdP-L9LQ4QSQjYD4Ag&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1093&bih=552) kick up page after page of floor plans .. granted some are castles and modern buildings but is a great supply of maps... I find that using the search tools to only show images larger than 600x800 filters out the shoddy thumbnail maps

Janus
2013-06-29, 10:39 AM
but by the end of the middle ages (which unfortunately was unspecified)
I imagine it's unspecified because "end of the Middle Ages" (and beginning of the Renaissance) differs based on the location. For instance, the Renaissance began in Italy long before it reached the rest of Europe.

Xeratos
2013-06-29, 11:11 AM
One thing to remember is that d&d is only loosely based on this time period. People also didn't believe in regular bathing back then either, so the lack of privacy might be historically accurate, but that doesn't mean you have to take it into account when you decide on a floor plan.

Also, historically speaking, even if magic existed, no one who could practice it would admit it for fear of being burned alive by his or her neighbors and the religious community in general. So you've got to take into account how having that out in the open and somewhat readily available (depending on your own personal setting) might alter what you'd consider traditional lifestyles and living arrangements for the time.

warty goblin
2013-06-29, 11:34 AM
One thing to remember is that d&d is only loosely based on this time period. People also didn't believe in regular bathing back then either, so the lack of privacy might be historically accurate, but that doesn't mean you have to take it into account when you decide on a floor plan.


The bathing thing is one of those (probably Victorian) myths about the middle ages. When you have to haul the water and heat it over an open fire a bath is a lot of work, but the evidence is pretty good it's something people did as much as feasible.

Berenger
2013-06-29, 01:47 PM
There could also be an attic which serves as storage place and sleeping berth for a servant and / or maid. Manpower is cheap in (faux) medieval times and without household aids of any kind your characters will want somebody to cook, clean etc. for them.

JadedDM
2013-06-29, 02:40 PM
Honestly, on the rooms front, the kitchen probbly wouldn't be seperate either: want heat from the fire for the whole building and allows you to watch the kids whilst cooking. Suspect a seperate larder or celler would exist though.

Actually, didn't kitchens used to be in separate buildings so if they caught fire, the whole place didn't burn down?

Berenger
2013-06-29, 03:21 PM
I don't think so. You need open fire for light and warmth anyway, at least in winter. A burgher living in the city won't have a second "cooking house" just in case. A castle or a manor may have such a designated kitchen building, though I don't know if this is purely for fire prevention.

fusilier
2013-06-29, 03:28 PM
The bathing thing is one of those (probably Victorian) myths about the middle ages. When you have to haul the water and heat it over an open fire a bath is a lot of work, but the evidence is pretty good it's something people did as much as feasible.

In a city there were usually public bath houses.

Slipperychicken
2013-06-29, 03:36 PM
Actually, didn't kitchens used to be in separate buildings so if they caught fire, the whole place didn't burn down?

Not for ordinary folk; they couldn't afford multiple buildings, especially not in the city.

Spiryt
2013-06-29, 03:38 PM
There could also be an attic which serves as storage place and sleeping berth for a servant and / or maid. Manpower is cheap in (faux) medieval times and without household aids of any kind your characters will want somebody to cook, clean etc. for them.

It depends on what 'faux medieval' times, but generally it's not true, at least not in towns.

Rich patrician could indeed have plenty of servants, but not ordinary craftsman. He would have to depend on children,old people, unskilled laborers, and other traditional workhorses. :smallbiggrin:



Actually, didn't kitchens used to be in separate buildings so if they caught fire, the whole place didn't burn down?

I don't think I've really ever seen such thing in the country - in fact fireplace or stove would hold pretty much central place in any 'Medieval' longhouse, farmhouse, dugout or whatever.

In city it would be completely out of question, no craftsmen could really spent expensive area just for kitchen.

Same thing as today, really. :smallwink:

The Grue
2013-06-29, 03:43 PM
Hallways are also a modern convention for most part. In fact to this day it's still uncommon to find them in a lot of European houses.

The Fury
2013-06-29, 04:00 PM
Actually, didn't kitchens used to be in separate buildings so if they caught fire, the whole place didn't burn down?

Not quite. Although outdoor ovens and such did exist, though I think they were used during summer months so that houses would not be inhospitably hot from a cookfire. If a separate "summer kitchen" type building existed I imagine that it would be fairly crude and probably shared by multiple households.

Berenger
2013-06-29, 04:05 PM
It depends on what 'faux medieval' times, but generally it's not true, at least not in towns.

Rich patrician could indeed have plenty of servants, but not ordinary craftsman. He would have to depend on children,old people, unskilled laborers, and other traditional workhorses. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I stand by the assumption that unskilled / low skilled manpower was cheaper than nowadays, but then again, this may be a "german centric" point of view that doesn't hold true for other regions of the world. You're of course right, a common craftsman would rather shuffle household chores towards his wife and unmarried daughters. I was thinking too much in terms of adventurer-level lifestyle and wealth.

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-30, 12:51 AM
Google is your friend is often used as a put down In this case I offer it as a hot tip:smallsmile:

Variations on the Google Image search medieval house floor plan (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=medieval+house+floor+plans&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vrHOUdP-L9LQ4QSQjYD4Ag&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1093&bih=552) kick up page after page of floor plans .. granted some are castles and modern buildings but is a great supply of maps... I find that using the search tools to only show images larger than 600x800 filters out the shoddy thumbnail maps

Thank you. I had checked them all and checked them again, and none are good.

But now I have the ultimate design ready! It's based on your feedback. Everyone's comments have been taken into account.

Explanations:
- The workshop has to be upstairs and not downstairs. This is because the walls of the groundfloor are thick stone, and I have already described them to my players of having no windows at all. Ground floor is a bit dark, and thus not that good for precise work. Upper floor has wooden walls and plenty of windows (without glass of course, just hatches), so it's ideal for working.
- The kitchen and dining room are combined so that the heat generated from stove will be distributed.
- No bedrooms. Everyone sleeps together. No privacy (some rich guys will buy those brilliant bed-boxes).

http://i.imgur.com/DdjYo4J.png

Please feel free to critique, but this is based on feedback, not on my own opinions. And I don't want to have windows in the ground floor, because I have already told that the houses only have windows in second and higher floors (don't ask).

Rion
2013-06-30, 04:11 AM
Actually, didn't kitchens used to be in separate buildings so if they caught fire, the whole place didn't burn down?
I've heard this as well, but I'm pretty sure it was with regards to castles*, not houses.

*IIRC concentric castles have nearly all rooms located in towers and the buildings along the innermost wall, with the sole exception of kitchens who are located in a seperate, smaller building in middle of the courtyard.

Berenger
2013-06-30, 04:31 AM
No ground floor windows can be justified by security concerns or a sufficiently dense built-up area. In narrow snickelways with overarching roofes there just is not that much sunlight at ground level most of the day.

I'd include an attic (unless the house has an oriental flat roof) an a cellar for some cheap extra space. The cellar will be a bit cooler than the upper floors and can include the pantry.

Depending on the craftsmans trade there could be a sales area in the house. Sometimes ground floor windows were used as a showcase or "drive by counter", but since you have none and the ground floor is "private" space anyway, I'd consider to scrap that part.

fusilier
2013-06-30, 04:34 AM
I'm actually more confused now than before . . .

Something I missed before -- why is the upper floor bigger than the ground floor in *both* dimensions? Is this a standalone structure? (Something that would be rare/expensive in a city) Or a corner building?

--EDIT-- Missed the last part, and I *asked* you can just ignore this section --EDIT--
Can you explain why the lower floor lacks windows? Defensive purposes? Aging cheese?

--EDIT-- Whoever is cooking needs to be able to see, and while the fire will cast some light it won't be ideal. Basically the same thing goes for eating too. Really, the only use for a windowless room like that would be for storage; it's basically a basement. --EDIT--

I remember seeing a medieval tower in an Italian city. The entrance was on the second story and could only be accessed by an easily removed ladder; the doorway was too narrow for a man wearing armor to squeeze through! There was a door on the first (ground) floor but it was only for storage, and there was no connection to the upper floors. Other town buildings were built right up against this tower, which wasn't very tall.

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-30, 04:38 AM
No ground floor windows can be justified by security concerns or a sufficiently dense built-up area. In narrow snickelways with overarching roofes there just is not that much sunlight at ground level most of the day.

I'd include an attic (unless the house has an oriental flat roof) an a cellar for some cheap extra space. The cellar will be a bit cooler than the upper floors and can include the pantry.

Depending on the craftsmans trade there could be a sales area in the house. Sometimes ground floor windows were used as a showcase or "drive by counter", but since you have none and the ground floor is "private" space anyway, I'd consider to scrap that part.

Good ideas. This house is a bit lower class than normal, so no cellar just because the PCs need to invest more money to have that luxury :smallbiggrin: This house was very cheap, so everything "nice" is out of the question. Attic is a good idea, and I will include one. I will not put it in the map. I will just tell them that they have a 10 ft * 15 ft attic and basically only halflings and gnomes can live there (uncomfortably).

I'm very happy with the house plan! Now all craftsmen houses will be like this one (with or without cellars). I will present this house to the lucky buyers in two hours. Millions of thanks to everyone!

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-30, 04:44 AM
I'm actually more confused now than before . . .

Something I missed before -- why is the upper floor bigger than the ground floor in *both* dimensions? Is this a standalone structure? (Something that would be rare/expensive in a city) Or a corner building?

--EDIT-- Missed the last part, and I *asked* you can just ignore this section --EDIT--
Can you explain why the lower floor lacks windows? Defensive purposes? Aging cheese?

--EDIT-- Whoever is cooking needs to be able to see, and while the fire will cast some light it won't be ideal. Basically the same thing goes for eating too. Really, the only use for a windowless room like that would be for storage; it's basically a basement. --EDIT--

I remember seeing a medieval tower in an Italian city. The entrance was on the second story and could only be accessed by an easily removed ladder; the doorway was too narrow for a man wearing armor to squeeze through! There was a door on the first (ground) floor but it was only for storage, and there was no connection to the upper floors. Other town buildings were built right up against this tower, which wasn't very tall.

It's like this:
http://ravynsworld.com/Games/building3.jpg

Except the ground floor is a windowless stone structure. It has both negative and positive sides. Please see Berenger's post for more information.

Berenger
2013-06-30, 04:58 AM
One last thing to consider: If you're using fachwerk (truss) for the upper floors, the building is pretty flexible. It was common to just rebuild / "customize" / add a floor when your family grew and you could afford it. This is also part of the explanation for the bigger higher floors. It was even possible to dismantle such a truss house, keep the valuable material (everything but clay and straw) and rebuild it in another city.

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-30, 05:04 AM
One last thing to consider: If you're using fachwerk (truss) for the upper floors, the building is pretty flexible. It was common to just rebuild / "customize" / add a floor when your family grew and you could afford it. This is also part of the explanation for the bigger higher floors. It was even possible to dismantle such a truss house, keep the valuable material (everything but clay and straw) and rebuild it in another city.

My players will surely be happy to hear that. I just need to come up with some price and construction time and I'm 90% certain that they will build a third floor (and maybe a cellar too).

fusilier
2013-06-30, 05:05 AM
Heh, when I hear medieval city, I usually think more along these lines: :-)

http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/northern/P9158659.jpg

Or maybe this:
http://0.s3.envato.com/files/42053097/stevanzz_0414.jpg

They really packed them in there, in rather irregular fashion! :-)

Jon_Dahl
2013-06-30, 07:00 AM
Heh, when I hear medieval city, I usually think more along these lines: :-)

Or maybe this:

They really packed them in there, in rather irregular fashion! :-)

That would work too. Then I would just have the make the upper floor a bit narrower. Well... I guess I will still go with my plan. Thank you for the feedback, though!