Greyguard?

[Arkhosia]

Could normal paladins use blackguard powers?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Could normal paladins use blackguard powers?

Uuuuh. No?

You have to be Evil to become a Blackguard.

[NecroRebel]

Uuuuh. No?

You have to be Evil to become a Blackguard.

Both of these things are wrong, and suggest that Mr.Bookworm is a stray 3.x player who is projecting the older edition's rules on the newer.

Blackguard powers are Paladin powers, so whenever a Paladin could choose a power, they could take a Blackguard power of the appropriate type and level. If the power didn't have a level (such as Dread Smite), they wouldn't be able to take it, however.

You also don't have to be Evil to be a Blackguard, though the Vices do restrict possible alignments (but neither forbids being Unaligned, and Fury allows a Good alignment).

[Arkhosia]

Both of these things are wrong, and suggest that Mr.Bookworm is a stray 3.x player who is projecting the older edition's rules on the newer.

Blackguard powers are Paladin powers, so whenever a Paladin could choose a power, they could take a Blackguard power of the appropriate type and level. If the power didn't have a level (such as Dread Smite), they wouldn't be able to take it, however.

You also don't have to be Evil to be a Blackguard, though the Vices do restrict possible alignments (but neither forbids being Unaligned, and Fury allows a Good alignment).
Thanks!
Would warlocks be able to take binder pacts? IMO, the binder just seems like an alternate build type for warlocks, but as the pact types do overlap, I am not sure it is possible.

[NecroRebel]

Thanks!
Would warlocks be able to take binder pacts? IMO, the binder just seems like an alternate build type for warlocks, but as the pact types do overlap, I am not sure it is possible.

Look at the upper-right corner of a power, within the colored bar that denotes the power type. If it says "Warlock Attack #" or "Warlock Utility #" a Warlock may take that power at the appropriately-numbered level. All of the binder powers have such a thing. Powers with that line simply outright are warlock powers.

Mind you, some of them are pretty worthless for a warlock; the various summon powers don't summon anything unless you have the binder star pact or binder gloom pact, for instance, which a warlock wouldn't have.



Edit: Actually, no, I misread your question. Warlocks would not be able to take Binder Pacts, as those are a class feature of the Binder which Warlocks don't get.

[allonym]

More specifically, a paladin can take blackguard daily and at-will powers (and a blackguard can take paladin daily powers, and other powers if they somehow gain access to them - for example, through Reserve Maneouvre or the Human racial ability), but a paladin has no way of gaining the Blackguard's Dread Smite encounter booster power, because it has no level (and blackguards gain it as a class feature).

[Mr.Bookworm]

Both of these things are wrong, and suggest that Mr.Bookworm is a stray 3.x player who is projecting the older edition's rules on the newer.

The stray is correct, the projection is not.

I clicked on the thread straight out of the main forums, so I didn't see what subforum it was in.

So, yeah, I'm wrong. My bad!

EDIT: Incidentally, what book are the 4E Greyguard and Blackguard in? I'm not familiar with those two.

[allonym]

Blackguard is a paladin variant (An essentials-style striker) found in the Heroes of Shadow sourcebook.

In this context I assume Grey Guard was meant as a concept rather than a specific class. However, there is a paladin paragon path called Grey Guard. It's strength-based, and while it's not quite as much of a powerhouse as the Champion of Order, it's a very solid path.

[Arkhosia]

The stray is correct, the projection is not.

I clicked on the thread straight out of the main forums, so I didn't see what subforum it was in.

So, yeah, I'm wrong. My bad!

EDIT: Incidentally, what book are the 4E Greyguard and Blackguard in? I'm not familiar with those two.

There is no such class as a greyguard, I was just thought it would be a good name for a paladin using blackguard powers (blackguard in heroes of shadow).
EDIT: ninja'd!
P.s. where is the greyguard paragon path?

[allonym]

Divine Power, page 99.

Its features are OK, but nothing to write home about. It's the powers which are so awesome. All three of them are lovely, but the daily has particular appeal - while it has nothing on the top-tier Ranger multiattacks, 4[w]+str mod plus your healing surge value is a hefty chunk of damage.

[Arkhosia]

Divine Power, page 99.

Its features are OK, but nothing to write home about. It's the powers which are so awesome. All three of them are lovely, but the daily has particular appeal - while it has nothing on the top-tier Ranger multiattacks, 4[w]+str mod plus your healing surge value is a hefty chunk of damage.

Hmm. Might take a look at it. Is it better than Astral Weapon (phb) power-wise?

[allonym]

Hmm. Might take a look at it. Is it better than Astral Weapon (phb) power-wise?

Yes, yes it definitely is. Astral Weapon is a really bad paragon path.

[Arkhosia]

Yes, yes it definitely is. Astral Weapon is a really bad paragon path.

That makes sense. I've heard before the paladin class only really got good in some aspects (when compared to other classes) due to divine power. Sadly, the only other book with paladin extras was the reason I started the thread, ANSI don't think that blackguard paragon paths would be acceptable for a normal paladin. :smallfrown:

[allonym]

Yes, you need to be an actual blackguard to take the Grim Blackguard paragon path.

However, if you are looking for a paragon path for a straladin, Champion of Order in the PHB is really, really good.

[Arkhosia]

Yes, you need to be an actual blackguard to take the Grim Blackguard paragon path.

However, if you are looking for a paragon path for a straladin, Champion of Order in the PHB is really, really good.

Okay, I'll keep that in mind for later on
Also, while we're talking about paragon paths, what's better: Chameleon (Ebberon players guide) or zealous assassin (phb2 avenger)?
Due to a lack of players I play two PCs: a Tiefling paladin and a changeling avenger (my current avatar, in fact).

[allonym]

Chameleon depends entirely on the strengh of your allies. If you have a powerhouse in the party, having Rain of Blows as your encounter power (with the option to change it to something else for flexibility) is rather nice; likewise the ability to have Blade Cascade as your daily, and whatever utility you like. However, the path almost entirely lacks features - you basically have limited skill training (there are only a few skills which really benefit from lots of people having them - stealth, perception, maybe insight, maybe heal, maybe arcana...thievery for a trap encounter... most of the others aren't very useful to duplicate) and a vaguely cute action point feature. It's nice for an avenger, because you don't have that many particularly good powers in-class, and picking up a nice multiattack or minor action encounter power works well with your oath. If you have access to Dragon Magazine, I'd definitely recommend looking into Traveler's Harlequin.
Zealous Assassin is OK, but very boring. The powers are all a bit lackluster, and the starting features don't really do much, but the level 16 feature is good for charge optimisation. Which is nice, but not really useful for you - especially because, without Divine Power, you can't get Power of Skill to turn Overwhelming Strike into an MBA, so charging isn't much use to you at all.

If Chameleon doesn't do it for you (no powerhouses to crib off), I'd pick up a multiclass PP, if your multiclass offers a good one. Given your apparently limited sources, Kensai (fighter PP) is a good choice - the features are great, and the powers really aren't. The fact that it's strength-based is pretty irrelevant - a bad PP daily isn't the end of the world, and the encounter power would be worthless even if you were strength-based, so just use reserve maneouvre to pick up a better encounter power. You should also consider (Tactical) Warpriest, the Cleric PP - it gives you a single-target mark with mark punishment and a lovely AP feature, and the powers aren't to be sneered at, either.

[Arkhosia]

Chameleon depends entirely on the strengh of your allies. If you have a powerhouse in the party, having Rain of Blows as your encounter power (with the option to change it to something else for flexibility) is rather nice; likewise the ability to have Blade Cascade as your daily, and whatever utility you like. However, the path almost entirely lacks features - you basically have limited skill training (there are only a few skills which really benefit from lots of people having them - stealth, perception, maybe insight, maybe heal, maybe arcana...thievery for a trap encounter... most of the others aren't very useful to duplicate) and a vaguely cute action point feature. It's nice for an avenger, because you don't have that many particularly good powers in-class, and picking up a nice multiattack or minor action encounter power works well with your oath. If you have access to Dragon Magazine, I'd definitely recommend looking into Traveler's Harlequin.
Zealous Assassin is OK, but very boring. The powers are all a bit lackluster, and the starting features don't really do much, but the level 16 feature is good for charge optimisation. Which is nice, but not really useful for you - especially because, without Divine Power, you can't get Power of Skill to turn Overwhelming Strike into an MBA, so charging isn't much use to you at all.

If Chameleon doesn't do it for you (no powerhouses to crib off), I'd pick up a multiclass PP, if your multiclass offers a good one. Given your apparently limited sources, Kensai (fighter PP) is a good choice - the features are great, and the powers really aren't. The fact that it's strength-based is pretty irrelevant - a bad PP daily isn't the end of the world, and the encounter power would be worthless even if you were strength-based, so just use reserve maneouvre to pick up a better encounter power. You should also consider (Tactical) Warpriest, the Cleric PP - it gives you a single-target mark with mark punishment and a lovely AP feature, and the powers aren't to be sneered at, either.

Party has a healing cleric (new player who is timid of using anything besides a battleaxe, trying to teach her to start using her class powers), a dual wield ranger, a battle-oriented wizard, and the afore mentioned paladin.
How would Talaric strategist(ardent PP), Angelic aspect (Invoker PP), or Wizard of the spiral tower (self-explanatory) work?

[allonym]

I assume you're asking if they would work as Avenger paths.

Short answer? They wouldn't.

Long answer? None of them are remotely strikey, and only one of them has attacks you can even use effectively (depending on your secondary stat). The ardent one requires cha (which you don't have) and is OK for ardents themselves, but does nothing for you as an avenger. Angelic Aspect isn't even very good for invokers, and does nothing for you. Wizard of the Spiral Tower is worse than useless, by making you want to use a longsword (you should be using either a much bigger weapon or dual-wielding if you're poaching ranger multiattacks...which is only really recommended if you're dilettante'ing Twin Strike), and otherwise having nothing for you.

You're a striker. Take paths which make you a better striker. You're melee. Take paths which are good for melee. You're wis-based. Take paths that are wis-based.

[Arkhosia]

I assume you're asking if they would work as Avenger paths.

Short answer? They wouldn't.

Long answer? None of them are remotely strikey, and only one of them has attacks you can even use effectively (depending on your secondary stat). The ardent one requires cha (which you don't have) and is OK for ardents themselves, but does nothing for you as an avenger. Angelic Aspect isn't even very good for invokers, and does nothing for you. Wizard of the Spiral Tower is worse than useless, by making you want to use a longsword (you should be using either a much bigger weapon or dual-wielding if you're poaching ranger multiattacks...which is only really recommended if you're dilettante'ing Twin Strike), and otherwise having nothing for you.

You're a striker. Take paths which make you a better striker. You're melee. Take paths which are good for melee. You're wis-based. Take paths that are wis-based.

Note to self: trade in longsword for greatsword
(I have a soft spot for longswords...)
Alright, Kensai it is!

[allonym]

Just remember to use Reserve Manoeuvre to switch out the laughably bad attack power for something good from your class.

[Arkhosia]

Just remember to use Reserve Manoeuvre to switch out the laughably bad attack power for something good from your class.

Okay. Thanks for the tremendous amount of help you've given me, I really appreciate it.

[Mando Knight]

However, if you are looking for a paragon path for a straladin, Champion of Order in the PHB is really, really good.
By really, really good, we mean "at level 11, almost completely shut down an enemy every encounter. And spank them even harder for trying."

Note to self: trade in longsword for greatsword
Fullblade. It costs a feat, but it is to the greatsword what the greatsword is to the longsword. And then a little more.

[Arkhosia]

By really, really good, we mean "at level 11, almost completely shut down an enemy every encounter. And spank them even harder for trying."
Champion of Order: AKA The Asian Parent Who Gives Their Kid Unfair Challenges.


Fullblade. It costs a feat, but it is to the greatsword what the greatsword is to the longsword. And then a little more.
Where is this said feat listed in?

[NecroRebel]

Where is this said feat listed in?

PHB1, p. 201 - the Weapon Proficiency feat (needed to get the proficiency bonus on the exotic fullblade). The fullblade itself is in the first Adventurer's Vault, page 9.

[Arkhosia]

PHB1, p. 201 - the Weapon Proficiency feat (needed to get the proficiency bonus on the exotic fullblade). The fullblade itself is in the first Adventurer's Vault, page 9.

I'm seriously hoping that they just put all the classes, races, feats, and equipment in one book, or each category having a book containing all of those in the category when they make the 5e books, or hopefully for 4e (though I doubt they'll make more books for 4e).

[NecroRebel]

I'm seriously hoping that they just put all the classes, races, feats, and equipment in one book, or each category having a book containing all of those in the category when they make the 5e books, or hopefully for 4e (though I doubt they'll make more books for 4e).

They won't - if they did, people could just buy a few books and get everything rather than having to buy dozens. At least 4e has the compendium that makes it easy to find things unless they appear in more than one source. Note that you don't need a DDI subscription to get a list of things and what book or magazine they're in (unless, again, they're in multiple places).

[BlckDv]

Also, the "one book" wish relies upon the notion of a finished product. If they put out the "All Gear Ever" book, and then an issue of Dragon 8 months later had an article introducing stats for the tribal weapons of the newly discovered Wixwui people featured in a recent Nat Geo. Well, now you have a "All Gear Ever" book that is a lie; and probably causes more harm than good as people will assume it is what it says.

I still recall the feeling of frustration after I bought the Spell Compendium so I'd have all the spells my player's wanted from oddball sources... and then they made more spells.

By the time an edition is "done" it is not worth the product development time to put out such a major undertaking; and when an edition is new they sure are not going to put out a book that functional precludes including any more of thing X in future products.

[Arkhosia]

They won't - if they did, people could just buy a few books and get everything rather than having to buy dozens. At least 4e has the compendium that makes it easy to find things unless they appear in more than one source. Note that you don't need a DDI subscription to get a list of things and what book or magazine they're in (unless, again, they're in multiple places).

I guess it is sort of good though: "want to buy a book with all the classes in it? That'll be $80. No, you can't just buy a book with the 3 classes you don't have stats for.".:smallbiggrin: