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fireinthedust
2013-06-28, 06:11 PM
I'm thinking about nWoD games. A ST said "it's a Gnostic setting" and I'm wondering if this is a common Mage theme, or an assumption in the setting.

Also: what would a "gnostic" setting look like?

I'm thinking the classical definition is: the world is an evil place controlled by an evil "master", but there's a "good god" who is trying to free souls from the contraints of the "master" and release them into a better reality outside of the evil one.

In terms of movies, this is your Matrix: the machine has this fake world, enslaved minds in their matrix, and Neo, the Oracle and others, are sneaking in and releasing them. Freed minds can alter reality.

I guess I can see it for Mage. Maybe like the movie Dark City, too?

Grinner
2013-06-28, 06:36 PM
I've never gotten a clear impression of what reality looks like from the "outside" in nWoD. There's a mirror world where spirits reside, a hellish otherworld from which demons invade reality, and the Mages have their own thing going on. The writers are very reluctant to give details regarding any creator deity, benevolent, evil, or otherwise.

Edit: Silly me. I forgot the underworld, where the Sin-Eaters go to party and everyone else goes to die.

Arbane
2013-06-28, 06:36 PM
There's an old RPG named Kult, which is specifically "Gnosticism by way of Hellraiser".

Water_Bear
2013-06-28, 06:37 PM
Mage the Awakening is based on Gnostic and Kabbalistic mysticism, arguably more of the latter but going into details strays too close to religious discussion for me to post about it.

The basic idea is that you've got the Supernal which is filled with platonic ideals truth light and all the usual good stuff, the Fallen World where the game actually takes place and is less than a shadow of the Supernal, and the Abyss which is the darkness and lies you have to pass through to get between them. The Fallen World and Supernal used to be more closely tied together, with a mage paradise called Atlantis being at the foot of the connection, but the War in Heaven caused by the hubris of the Atlantean Mages broke off the human connection and created the Abyss.

In the present day most Mages fall into one of four main factions; the Pentacle Orders who emulate the Oracles (Atlantean Mages who wanted to use magic to empower humanity as a whole) and generally try to learn the truth for themselves and teach what they've learned to others, the Seers of the Throne who follow the Exarchs (Atlantean Mages who wanted to keep magic to themselves) and try to enforce materialism lies and hierarchies to build their own power at any cost, the Scelesti who are insane worshipers of the Abyss, and Banishers who refuse to believe the truth and kill other mages to preserve the comforting lie they lived with as a Sleeper (muggle, essentially). All PCs by default are members of one of the five orders of the Pentacle Orders, although rules for playing Banishers Seers and Scelesti exist, and the core theme of the game is uncovering the truth without giving in to hubris.

AuraTwilight
2013-06-28, 07:28 PM
I've never gotten a clear impression of what reality looks like from the "outside" in nWoD. There's a mirror world where spirits reside, a hellish otherworld from which demons invade reality, and the Mages have their own thing going on. The writers are very reluctant to give details regarding any creator deity, benevolent, evil, or otherwise.

But that's just the thing. If we were capable of perceiving or understanding something, it wouldn't be 'outside'. The writers do give enough detail to explain how 'Ascended' entities are completely incapable of describing or relaying any sort of description of what things are really like.

Grinner
2013-06-28, 07:55 PM
But that's just the thing. If we were capable of perceiving or understanding something, it wouldn't be 'outside'. The writers do give enough detail to explain how 'Ascended' entities are completely incapable of describing or relaying any sort of description of what things are really like.

I feel that the sheer complexity of the universe, nevermind the possibility of a multiverse, renders any description succinct enough to fit into a casual conversation totally useless. An apt description complete with macrocosmic and microcosmic comparisons, thus accurately describing the entire universe on a conceptual level, would fill volumes upon volumes upon volumes. Perhaps even entire libraries.

Still, I think XKCD gives it a fair crack:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lisp.jpg

AuraTwilight
2013-06-28, 08:19 PM
Well, what I mean by that is that the World of Darkness heavily implies that there's no common ground for us "out there" to converse about, not so much an attempt to summarize literally all of reality.

All that being said, answering the questions you asked about (the existence of benevolent deities, etc) significantly lowers the sorts of stories you can tell in the setting, which was one of the nails that killed the OWoD.

Grinner
2013-06-28, 08:31 PM
Well, what I mean by that is that the World of Darkness heavily implies that there's no common ground for us "out there" to converse about, not so much an attempt to summarize literally all of reality.

So....Plato's Cave?

AuraTwilight
2013-06-28, 10:20 PM
Essentially, yes. The New World of Darkness, and Mage: The Awakening in particular, claims that the reality we live in is so fundamentally altered in every sense from the true reality that concepts and axioms considered fundamental and simple in the original reality are now beyond our understanding, right down to apparently missing colors.

And good luck explaining colors to a blind person, to continue the metaphor.

fireinthedust
2013-06-29, 06:33 AM
The cave! Totally forgot about that. Nice.


But how to play that out in game? What kinds of encounters would be designed to get characters into the action? And how can the pcs care about the setting if they feel its just a con? Like, would they invest in it, build a home, or just tear it all down?

Thrudd
2013-06-29, 07:31 AM
The cave! Totally forgot about that. Nice.


But how to play that out in game? What kinds of encounters would be designed to get characters into the action? And how can the pcs care about the setting if they feel its just a con? Like, would they invest in it, build a home, or just tear it all down?

Well, that's all up to you, or the storyteller, isn't it? You can imagine whatever answers you want, and the game is about the players discovering them. The designers left it open ended so as not to write themselves into a corner like they did with the old WoD. So you can write yourself into your own corners. :)

To get the PC's to care about the setting will require that they have strong character backgrounds with enough hooks to make them care in some way. Of course, discussing just those issues is a big part of the game. How do you deal with "reality", when you learn that it is all an illusion? When you don't exactly have the power or level of awareness necessary to just up and leave/transcend or create your own separate universe, but you are no longer a "slave to the matrix". That's kind of what Mage is all about. The default setting implies that the players are basically people driven to find and reveal the truth, and in some cases help awaken humanity as a whole. Just when they begin making progress towards awakening and maybe threaten to open some "mundane" people's eyes, some force appears to stop them, whose interest is to protect the status quo. The PC's care about people, humanity in general, and are opposed to those who maintain the illusion (maybe justifiably, maybe not). Or maybe they desire only to escape and gain enlightenment for themselves, but are forced to deal with the false world because they lack the power/knowledge to truly challenge the architects of this reality. If they act out too severely, there are consequences from one faction or another, or from the very fabric of the matrix world. They learn to be subtle and bypass the gatekeepers one by one in their pursuit of deepest reality.

fireinthedust
2013-06-29, 10:14 AM
One of the things that gets me about the game is how specific the five orders are: you're either an angel, a fey, a demon, a necromancer, or a shaman (read: D&D druid). It's good, but in my head the ideas are so flavourful it's hard to think outside that box.

AuraTwilight
2013-06-29, 12:46 PM
One of the things that gets me about the game is how specific the five orders are: you're either an angel, a fey, a demon, a necromancer, or a shaman (read: D&D druid). It's good, but in my head the ideas are so flavourful it's hard to think outside that box.

Er...no, not at all? No Mage is literally any of those things except maybe a necromancer or a shaman. No matter what Order they join, they're all humans wielding magic, but they have different philosophies based on the Supernal experiences they had. Though there's five main orders, there are several more, with examples given in the books, and these orders aren't really alignments or magic-types so much as just what these people decide they should do with their power. No one is answering questions for Mages, so they need to come up with their own answers.

fireinthedust
2013-06-29, 07:21 PM
Sure, but thematically, the paths are very direct: the Mastigos are the devilsh ones, though they can be morally good they'll still have some trappings of the infernal theme: temptation, mind control, power brokering, etc. Obrimos may take many forms, from the paladin/cleric theme to the example in the book of a serial killer on a righteous quest to kill kill kill: you've got the celetial theme there, alongside the high church/inquisition/crusader. A

Thrudd
2013-06-29, 08:09 PM
Sure, but thematically, the paths are very direct: the Mastigos are the devilsh ones, though they can be morally good they'll still have some trappings of the infernal theme: temptation, mind control, power brokering, etc. Obrimos may take many forms, from the paladin/cleric theme to the example in the book of a serial killer on a righteous quest to kill kill kill: you've got the celetial theme there, alongside the high church/inquisition/crusader. A

You could start out with the players thinking that everything is very direct and pretty much solid, as the default setting seems to apply, but through your storytelling discover the universe isn't as solidly defined as they thought. Their chosen orders don't mean as much as they thought, if anything. While the orders of mages believe they are the ones privy to the universe's true nature, and all of the mundane world's divisions and institutions are nothing but petty machinations of sleepers, there is likewise a greater reality to which the mage's orders are comparatively petty and mundane, only existing to maintain a type of control. Yes, this might require some work on your part, explaining how things "really" work vs how the rulebook says it works. You can explain to the players at the appropriate time that the rulebook and default setting is just how the characters in the world believe reality operates, it's actually just another part of the "matrix".

fireinthedust
2013-06-30, 10:03 AM
I'm thinking about how to stat a more sinister version of the adjustment bureau-meets-agent Smith.

Any suggestions? Still figuring out the current system.

Also on my list is hellraiser pinhead types.

Water_Bear
2013-06-30, 10:58 AM
I'm thinking about how to stat a more sinister version of the adjustment bureau-meets-agent Smith.

Any suggestions? Still figuring out the current system.

Also on my list is hellraiser pinhead types.

For the first I'd say to use Qashmallim from Promethean, Angels from God Machine, or just a Supernal Abyssal or Alien ephemera* with cool Numina. The differences between them are minor enough that you don't really have to worry about it if you don't want to, and it takes about twelve second to build any of them; pick their Rank, distribute points between Power Finesse and Resistance, and choose some cool Numina.

If what you want is Demons, WoD; Inferno is where you ought to look for them. There are other equivalent creatures, but Inferno has a summary of most of them; as far as I know the only 'Demon-y' beings they don't deal with are Lilithim from Promethean.

*One of the most confusing things in nWoD is the question "what is and isn't a Spirit." The word refers mostly to the animistic Spirits from the Shadow, but is also used as a generic for other ephemeral beings like Abyssal 'Spirits.' The errata for the World of Darkness core book, and God Machine afterwards, says the actual generic for spiritual beings is ephemera.

fireinthedust
2013-07-01, 10:16 AM
Okay, looking good so far, and thanks for the ideas.


Question: is there anything in the core or extended rules that hints at the idea of multiple worlds? Like, that the fallen world is one of potentially several fallen worlds, each created by a different Exarch? Sort of like Dark City is one, the Core setting is another, etc.

And the Labyrinth: am i right in thinking this is the experience of being a sleeper who's trying to wake up?


Also: How well would Exalted mesh with Mage or other nWoD rules sets? I know nothing about it, but I'm thinking of it as an option for non-supernatural heroes or combat styles: if Hyperborea is a real thing in the setting, and if Conan-style characters would be a good fit for a setting.

And are there good combat source books?

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-01, 10:34 AM
Exalted meshes horribly with New World of Darkness, on account of using different systems which only have superficial elements in common. I would not suggest trying to have a Mage / Exalted crossover.

Water_Bear
2013-07-01, 11:44 AM
With the multiple worlds thing, there's nothing preventing an ST from ruling that way but I personally don't like the sound of it. Especially if it works the way you described, it just breaks with the tone too much to have world-creating Exarchs or parallel earths.


Also: How well would Exalted mesh with Mage or other nWoD rules sets? I know nothing about it, but I'm thinking of it as an option for non-supernatural heroes or combat styles: if Hyperborea is a real thing in the setting, and if Conan-style characters would be a good fit for a setting.

Just use Dark Heroes from WoD; Mirrors. They're not supernatural exactly, unbelievably tough, and tremendously skilled. Also tremendously broken if you're ST isn't paying attention to what you're doing or you can splat-dive for powers to turn into Magic Spells.


And are there good combat source books?

Every book? There are far more combat rules than anything else and I don't think I've seen a book without at least one or two new weapons or combat merits / powers. I guess Armory and Armory Reloaded might qualify as the heaviest.

fireinthedust
2013-07-01, 12:17 PM
With the multiple worlds thing, there's nothing preventing an ST from ruling that way but I personally don't like the sound of it. Especially if it works the way you described, it just breaks with the tone too much to have world-creating Exarchs or parallel earths.



More about this, if you would. I'm thinking of it more like the Matrix: if you had multiple "servers" that everyone was trapped on, or if an Exarch had made their own demi-plane the pcs encounter.

It would perhaps need to be a different setting than standard, then. Hrmm, thinking and rethinking that then.

But are demiplanes or pocket worlds a thing?

fireinthedust
2013-07-01, 01:01 PM
Exalted meshes horribly with New World of Darkness, on account of using different systems which only have superficial elements in common. I would not suggest trying to have a Mage / Exalted crossover.

Any suggestions on how a nWoD Conan the Barbarian would best be created? My understanding would be high Physical Strength and Stamina (and Dex is amazing also in the books, minimum 3); fairly good composure and wits (for spotting enemies or avoiding intimidation) and amazing presence; add Weapons, Brawl, Stealth, Athletics (climbing, riding), and then find some good combat advantages perhaps. Justice and Wrath would be the virtue/vice.

I'm thinking in terms of a group encountered artifacts from, say, Hyborean times, or themselves were transported there or into the dreams of someone who loves REH stories.

I know nothing of exalted, though i suspect a lot.

Thrudd
2013-07-02, 01:21 AM
More about this, if you would. I'm thinking of it more like the Matrix: if you had multiple "servers" that everyone was trapped on, or if an Exarch had made their own demi-plane the pcs encounter.

It would perhaps need to be a different setting than standard, then. Hrmm, thinking and rethinking that then.

But are demiplanes or pocket worlds a thing?

They were in Mage:the ascension. Don't know if they are mentioned in the new WoD book. But they could be a thing in your game, if you want them to be.

Also, it's possible to have heroes of non-supernatural nature with the WoD system. Just give them really good abilities and attributes. If you want to replicate the way someone like Conan seems to survive things most people couldn't, then sure, give him some passive magic ability that helps him survive or do extra damage. But I think he should just be a normal human being with very high stats.

Yeah, Exalted is not a good match for Hyborea and Conan stories, it is based on manga/anime style fantasy action. It also really can't be blended with WoD.

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-02, 05:54 AM
Yeah, Exalted is not a good match for Hyborea and Conan stories, it is based on manga/anime style fantasy action. It also really can't be blended with WoD.

Well, it is more based on wuxia and various epics, with manga and anime inspirations being more of a stylistic flavor.