Can a skillmonkey function without trapfinding?

[Giegue]

As the title asks. With my idea of a beguiler/archivist mystic theurge no longer working out due to the way alternate source spell works, I am now considering using human paragon alongside an archivist with a large Int to make a divine-fullcasting skillmonkey that is not a cloistered cleric. However, this build does not gain trapfinding. Thus, I am wondering, is trapfinding necessary for a skillmonkey to function or can I do without it? The module we would be playing would be red hand of doom, just in case you where wondering.

[Flickerdart]

Find traps is a 2nd level cleric spell.

[Darth Stabber]

You can usually do just fine without trapfinding. As mentioned there is find trap as a second level spell, but it's also a first level spell (summon monster 1). Honestly I consider summon monster to be a far better method of trapfinding than trapfinding, since it involves no die rolls. My last druid did the same thing with SNA I.

[eggynack]

What level are you? If you get 4th level spells, you can pick up the summon elemental reserve feat from Complete Mage, page 47. That thing is basically everything you could want in a trapfinder, and in a trap destroyer. Just send out mook after mook, triggering every trap in the place you're going. It's pretty sweet.

[Psyren]

As I was about to suggest in your other thread, you should probably just go Factotum/Chameleon and get your divine casting skillmonkey in that way.

As for trapfinding, how necessary it is depends on your DM more than anything. I don't know how many traps are in RHoD, but that may be something worth looking into - at least in a broad sense - before committing your entire build to do something that turns out to be unnecessary.

Find Traps isn't as useful as it sounds - you still have to actually search for the traps (no, it doesn't just "reveal them" like it does in NWN, though you do get a nice bonus) which mean that even when you're finding them successfully, most of the spell's duration will get eaten up as you slowly advance and search each likely 5-foot cube one full-round action at a time. And of course there is the problem of knowing when to use it, or how many to prepare, whereas trapfinding is more of an always-on deal. And of course, the second half of trapfinding (disabling magic traps) is not conferred by the spell, though one could argue that's where dispels come into play.

[Giegue]

The campaign starts at level 5, so the chameleon build is not possible. I HATE playing mundanes. I ONLY play casters. That is that. All being said, I suppose I can get by without trapfinding by using summons to pop traps, as others have said, and the elemental reserve feat is good for that I would guess. As for search, I can pick it up with human paragon, so find traps can still be used.

[Psyren]

You could always go with Bard as well, getting plenty of skillmonkey and healing alike. (You wouldn't even need Divine Bard to be a good healer, if that's what they want a divine caster for.)

[Giegue]

Bards are not "caster-y" enough for me, which I mentioned in other threads. I dislike mundanes, and bards are closer to being mundane then casters. I have, however, considered beguiler, but they already have a generalist wizard who will I assume be covering battlefield control...

[Psyren]

Then I think an Archivist with summon elemental reserve is a splendid idea. Just be sure to bring along lots of healing/status removal if there's a trap your minions fail to spring.


bards are closer to being mundane then casters.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, especially once you factor in the supernatural music. I'd say that characterization would apply more to Paladins, Rangers, Hexblades etc. myself. :smallsmile:

[Darth Stabber]

bards are closer to being mundane then casters.

How? Paladins and Rangers are half-casters and closer to "mundanes" than casters. Bards are full on casters, they have a pretty decent thematically appropriate spell list, plenty of spells per day, bardic music (a form of magic in and of itself), caster level equal to class level, and some good skills, they are no where near non-casters. When people take the class, 9/10 they are playing it primarily as a spell caster. Their skill list is mildly retarded (I mean that in the traditional sense), but skill checks are like spells that don't need slots (example: a good hide check is often better than invisibility, and the two together are amazing), and bardic music is some pretty good buffing if you use it intelligently.

Also, why so hateful toward non-casters? Rogues, barbarians, ToB classes, certain ranger builds, and several other things I could name are pretty good at their jobs, and don't need your fancy spells to get the job done (though they do appreciate when a buff spell heads their direction).

[Giegue]

Even with the supernatural music they hardly hold a candle to fullcasters on terms of magical powers. The character I am planning is one who is neutral evil and has a desire to obtain power, any fullcaster class is better as far as "gaining power" is concerned....so it's not so much the classes as it is the fact that fullcaster is the best route to power, and my evil characters would never settle for anything less then the power of a fullcaster.

[Darth Stabber]

Even with the supernatural music they hardly hold a candle to fullcasters on terms of magical powers. The character I am planning is one who is neutral evil and has a desire to obtain power, any fullcaster class is better as far as "gaining power" is concerned.

Depends, Bard can fit that description, especially if you mean political power, but I think I take your meaning, and bard may not fit this particular concept, but they are still very much full casters, whether they are appropriate in this circumstance or not. I think when you say full caster you are trying to say "class that gets 9s" which is something slightly different, and not as big a deal as you might think (especially if you know what you are doing and have permission to reach into bard's massive splat support). And yeah a bard is not going to be the go to class for every character concept, but so many character concepts don't really support a full caster, my question was why the general hostility. And yes Bards can hold a candle to full casters if you are smart about it, especially when it comes to buffing. A dragonfire inspiration bard is going to MASSIVELY increase the parties damage output, even more than most wizards. And with enchantment spells + actual social skills they are going to do better in the social arena than a wizard or rogue.

[tiercel]

As mentioned, find traps is not a very great spell for replacing trapfinding if you are going to need it in your campaign significantly.

Summoning is one way to defuse some of the danger of traps (certainly many one-shot traps or magical traps that can be dispelled instead of using Disable Device), but it is worth noting that if the being placing a trap knows there is a significant chance that his trap could be pitted against spellcasters, that being will plan accordingly.

For instance, if the point (or part of the point) of a trap is to set off an alarm and warn defenders, using a summon to set off the trap gains no advantage for the intruders. Likewise if the point of a trap is to seal off an area (to make it impassable/difficult to pass/buy the defenders time).

If the trap is designed to protect a treasure, then its triggering may destroy the treasure rather than let it fall into enemy hands, and again summoning won't help.

Some traps might even be manually triggered by hidden watchers (especially if they have been alerted by an alarm trap), so that they go off when the real threat is approaching, not when the cannon fodder is wandering down a corridor.

That's not to say that there isn't value in having non-trapfinding methods of dealing with traps, but in a world where trapmakers know that spellcasters have ways of defeating their traps, the trapmakers should use that knowledge in their design and placement of traps.

[Psyren]

Even with the supernatural music they hardly hold a candle to fullcasters on terms of magical powers.

Depends on which "fullcaster" you mean. A Healer for instance is pretty lousy at battlefield control compared to a Bard, and a warmage isn't too much better, but both can hit 9s.

But it's moot in any case. Your statement was "bards are closer to mundanes than casters" - that was the assertion I was opposing. Their casting ability relative to fullcasters isn't relevant to that, it's mundanes you should be comparing them to at that point.

Darth covered what I was going to say on the "obtaining power" subject.