Amulet of Natural Attacks, Why Bother?

[Elricaltovilla]

So the Amulet of Natural Attacks, the sole item I'm aware of that boosts the power of Natural Attacks. So why is it so much worse than equivalent weapons and weapon enhancements?

In 3.5 it's ridiculously expensive, and only has a maximum bonus of +5 (whereas weapons can go up to +10 if you count enchantments which are priced as various +enhancements)

In Pathfinder, it's cheaper. But it still only caps at +5.

I'm looking for someone to justify why this decision is made. Then we can start complaining about how silly it is.

[elonin]

It may be that i'm getting my items confused but if this is the one that works with druid in wild shaped form, then put a wilding clasp on it and get an otherwise difficult to get bonus to animal form attacks.

[Togo]

Is this different from the amulet of mighty fists?

[Lateral]

So, there are two items that have this function. The Amulet of Mighty Fists, and the Necklace of Natural Attacks. Despite the names, though, the former is far better for natural attack users than the latter, and the latter is far better for unarmed strike users than the former.

This is because the Amulet of Mighty Fists, though more expensive than a magic weapon, applies to all natural attacks. A Necklace of Natural Attacks, while it allows weapon enhancements other than +1, +2, etc., increases in price for every natural attack you have, so it's cheaper only if you use just one (i.e. an unarmed strike).

[Elricaltovilla]

Is this different from the amulet of mighty fists?

In Pathfinder they're the same thing. In 3.5 the amulet of mighty fists is the one that boosts unarmed strike damage. Unless I'm getting them mixed up.

The mechanics are more or less identical, it's just a matter of which one applies to which attack.

[Der_DWSage]

Because Monks are clearly overpowered, and so their items must be limited by WBL.

Now that I've got my daily snark out of the way, the only explanation I have for you is that it's following the +50% pricing for having an unusual slot, and then for some mysterious reason doubling the price afterwards. For comparison...

{table]Enhancement|Amulet|Magic Weapon
+1|6000|2000
+2|24000|8000
+3|54000|18000
+4|96000|32000
+5|150000|50000
[/table]

EDIT:Whups. Hit 'confirm' when I meant 'preview.' Anyway, I guess they wanted it as expensive as two separate weapons, along with being an unusual slot, because...reasons, I guess? I've always thought they were rather silly in overpricing it so badly.

Double Mega Edit:And so far as Pathfinder goes, they 'merely' doubled the price you would get from your average magic weapon. Once again:Silly.

[Elricaltovilla]

Because Monks are clearly overpowered, and so their items must be limited by WBL.

Now that I've got my daily snark out of the way, the only explanation I have for you is that it's following the +50% pricing for having an unusual slot, and then for some mysterious reason doubling the price afterwards. For comparison...

{table]Enhancement|Amulet|Magic Weapon
+1|6000|2000
+2|24000|8000
+3|54000|18000
+4|96000|32000
+5|150000|50000
[/table]


The first bolded part is an acceptable (if stupid) justification. The second bolded part is utterly ridiculous.

Still doesn't answer why I can have a +5 Flaming Keen Speed Falchion, but I can't have +5 Burning Keen Speed Unarmed Strikes/Natural Attacks.

[Der_DWSage]

Because then you wouldn't spend all your feats on those hand-crafted abilities that let you add +1d6 fire damage to your unarmed strike! Surely that's a good reason, right?

[Elricaltovilla]

Because then you wouldn't spend all your feats on those hand-crafted abilities that let you add +1d6 fire damage to your unarmed strike! Surely that's a good reason, right?

Totemists, Druids, Wildshape Rangers and animal companions can't even use those feats though...

Idk, If anybody ever asked me if they could play a character who uses natural attacks/unarmed strikes, I'd probably just let them pump it all the way to +10 like a regular weapon but for the 50% increased cost thing you mentioned.

But why didn't they do that the first time around. I'm not familiar with 2.0 or 3.0 but I have a hunch it was one of those things they ported over without updating it...

[Coidzor]

An Amulet of Mighty Fists applies to all of your natural weapons, no matter how many you have. So it's more cost effective than making all of your natural weapons individually enchanted using a necklace of natural attacks once you've got 3 or 4 natural weapons that you actually use.

So if you're a monk, necklace of natural attacks or scorpion kama or brass knuckles without the ridiculous errata. Something with lots of natural weapons that's not a totemist, amulet of mighty fists.

[Rubik]

There are other ways to augment unarmed strikes, other than the amulet of mighty fists and the necklace of natural weapons (which, as Lateral pointed out, are misnamed).

You can also enhance gauntlets, which count as unarmed strikes, but can be enhanced as weapons. Since they ARE unarmed strikes, the monk's improved unarmed attack damage works on them. Warforged battlefists (from the Eberron Campaign Setting sourcebook) do the same, though they improve your damage by one step. If you pay 300 gp on character creation, you can pay to enhance your unarmed strikes directly. Bracers of striking, from Magic of Faerun, both grant you Improved Unarmed Strikes and can be enhanced exactly as though they were a double-weapon. The kensai PrC allows you to enhance your unarmed strikes as well. The Item Familiar feat can boost your unarmed strikes (as it's an effect which can affect manufactured weapons), but only if you've enhanced your unarmed strikes directly. The Ancestral Relic feat can also improve your unarmed strikes in this way. And then there are weapon crystals, from the MIC (which can be stacked for a +50% surcharge).

Other than that, I don't know of many ways to do it, but if you want to see a monk optimized to his logical conclusion using this, here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Elricaltovilla]

There are other ways to augment unarmed strikes, other than the amulet of mighty fists and the necklace of natural weapons (which, as Lateral pointed out, are misnamed).

You can also enhance gauntlets, which count as unarmed strikes, but can be enhanced as weapons. Since they ARE unarmed strikes, the monk's improved unarmed attack damage works on them. Warforged battlefists (from the Eberron Campaign Setting sourcebook) do the same, though they improve your damage by one step. If you pay 300 gp on character creation, you can pay to enhance your unarmed strikes directly. Bracers of striking, from Magic of Faerun, both grant you Improved Unarmed Strikes and can be enhanced exactly as though they were a double-weapon. The kensai PrC allows you to enhance your unarmed strikes as well. The Item Familiar feat can boost your unarmed strikes (as it's an effect which can affect manufactured weapons), but only if you've enhanced your unarmed strikes directly. The Ancestral Relic feat can also improve your unarmed strikes in this way. And then there are weapon crystals, from the MIC (which can be stacked for a +50% surcharge).

Other than that, I don't know of many ways to do it, but if you want to see a monk optimized to his logical conclusion using this, here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

See, this just further proves my point... at least as far as Unarmed Strikes go. The fact that, in core (gauntlets) I can improve my unarmed strikes without bothering with that crappy item.

What about enhancing natural attacks?

[Rubik]

See, this just further proves my point... at least as far as Unarmed Strikes go. The fact that, in core (gauntlets) I can improve my unarmed strikes without bothering with that crappy item.

What about enhancing natural attacks?I haven't looked for that, but I know there's Magic Fang (which also works on unarmed strikes, and it's much cheaper to permanency than getting a +1 normally, and since it's not an item enhancement, it doesn't count toward your magic weapon costs). The amulet of mighty fists and necklace of natural attacks also work on them. There's a weapon in the A&EG that grants its enhancement bonus to one of your claw attacks. You should also be able to toss a least weapon crystal on your natural attacks if you spent 300 gp each to make them masterwork.

Beyond that, you have spells and psionic powers which do so, though the powers are primarily for claws specifically, which is unfortunate.

[edit] Oh! And the tooth of Leraje from Tome of Magic will give you a +5 enhancement bonus to your US's. Greater Magic Weapon 1/day at CL 20.

[mattie_p]

See, this just further proves my point... at least as far as Unarmed Strikes go. The fact that, in core (gauntlets) I can improve my unarmed strikes without bothering with that crappy item.

What about enhancing natural attacks?

And monks are not proficient with gauntlets anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Elricaltovilla]

And monks are not proficient with gauntlets anyway. :smallbiggrin:

martial monk acf level 1 fighter bonus feat for weapon proficiency (simple). Might be the only time anybody ever takes Weapon Proficiency (Simple) for anything.

[nyjastul69]

What 3.5 source has the necklace of natural attacks?

[Elricaltovilla]

What 3.5 source has the necklace of natural attacks?

Apparently it's Necklace of Natural Weapons, and its in Savage Species.

[nyjastul69]

Apparently it's Necklace of Natural Weapons, and its in Savage Species.

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5. SS is 3.0. Why not just use the amulet of mighty fists and call it a day?

[Elricaltovilla]

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5. SS is 3.0. Why not just use the amulet of mighty fists and call it a day?

Because It's the amulet of Natural Attacks in Pathfinder (which I usually play nowadays) and they're all named so similarly that I get confused. But they all uniformly suck.

[Rubik]

martial monk acf level 1 fighter bonus feat for weapon proficiency (simple). Might be the only time anybody ever takes Weapon Proficiency (Simple) for anything.They're not even proficient with unarmed strikes (which gauntlets are). Monks are so overpowered that they weren't even allowed proficiency with their own bodies.

[nyjastul69]

Because It's the amulet of Natural Attacks in Pathfinder (which I usually play nowadays) and they're all named so similarly that I get confused. But they all uniformly suck.

Ooops! Sorry, thought this was a 3.5 thread.

[Elricaltovilla]

They're not even proficient with unarmed strikes (which gauntlets are). Monks are so overpowered that they weren't even allowed proficiency with their own bodies.

Well, that's just silly.


Ooops! Sorry, thought this was a 3.5 thread.

It's both. My terminology for 3.5 is rusty. The Amulet of Natural Attacks (Pathfinder) is mechanically identical (save being cheaper) to the Amulet of Mighty Fists (3.5) which is similar enough to the Necklace of Natural Weapons (3.0) that people still use the Necklace of Natural Weapons (3.0) over the Amulet of Mighty Fists (3.5) in certain situations, as detailed above.

[Karnith]

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5.
Actually, it does, and can be found online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a), near the bottom of the page. The wording is functionally the same for the 3.0 and 3.5 versions of the item, so it doesn't really matter which version you're using; it's one of those situations where using 3.0 material doesn't even require those annoying "minor adjustments."

EDIT: Also, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is generally way worse for enhancing natural weapons unless you've got a bunch of them

[mattie_p]

martial monk acf level 1 fighter bonus feat for weapon proficiency (simple). Might be the only time anybody ever takes Weapon Proficiency (Simple) for anything.

Even if they did that, it doesn't work. Simple weapon proficiency is not on the list of fighter bonus feats.

[Big Fau]

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5. SS is 3.0. Why not just use the amulet of mighty fists and call it a day?

Because the Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't allow special abilities. A NoNA with Collision and other abilities can make the Druid, Totemist, and Psychic Warrior incredibly more powerful (its just hideously expensive).

[Rubik]

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5. SS is 3.0. Why not just use the amulet of mighty fists and call it a day?Because A.) it only allows for enhancement bonuses, B.) it only allows for up to +5, and C.) it's three times as expensive for a single natural weapon.

[Coidzor]

Ah, so it doesn't exist at all in 3.5. SS is 3.0. Why not just use the amulet of mighty fists and call it a day?

Correction, it does exist in 3.5 due to the compatibility clause.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Where is this "The Amulet of Natural Attacks" in pathfinder because I can't find it. I can find the amulet of mighty fist but I can't find the pathfinder item amulet or necklace of natural attacks.(the savage species item doesn't exist in pathfinder.) Secondly in pathfinder unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons.

So what we're talking about is the amulet of mighty fist. The reason it costs twice as much(in pathfinder) is because when a monk flurry's he's essentially TWF. If you dual wield you have to pay to enchant both weapons, when a monk is flurrying he gets the same number of attacks(probably more if he spends a ki point or gets to use Medusa's Wrath) So he also has to pay twice. If an amulet of mighty fist cost the same as a regular weapon but you only got it on half your attacks when you used flurry of blows would that be fair?

In 3.5 WoC was just being cruel.


Because the Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't allow special abilities.
It does in pathfinder as a matter of fact you don't even need a base enchantment to put special abilities on it. You can just have an amulet of mighty fist with +5 in special abilities and have the party wizard or cleric cast greater magic weapon on you for the damage and to hit bonuses

[Metahuman1]

Wait: In pathfinder, gauntlets just use Unarmed strike damage for there base damage?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Wait: In pathfinder, gauntlets just use Unarmed strike damage for there base damage?

They deal the same damage as gauntlets in 3.5. The damage a gauntlet deals is the same as a creature of your size striking unarmed. If you happen to be medium sized with d10 fists a gauntlet still still deals 1d3 damage.

That doesn't even cover the issue of gauntlets not being monk weapons and thus would disqualify them from most of there abilities.

[Rubik]

Wait: In pathfinder, gauntlets just use Unarmed strike damage for there base damage?I have no idea about Pathfinder, but they're categorized as unarmed strike weapons in 3.5, and as such would use the character's unarmed damage, which for most Medium characters is 1d3.

[Curmudgeon]

Correction, it does exist in 3.5 due to the compatibility clause.
Yeah, but be aware that compatibility clause allows your DM to make "minor adjustments" to existing (pre-3.5) material. You're much better off using the Necklace of Natural Attacks, which is already published as 3.5 material, and avoiding any such possibility.

[fluke1993]

The Amulet of Natural Attacks is most useful when you have many natural attacks of a different type. (fore example a dragon)

The reason it is priced so high is that it theoretically allows you to enchant as many natural weapons as you have (Warshaper anyone?) and also allows you to add non-numeric modifiers to your natural attacks. Heck correct me if I am wrong but reading it you don't even need to add a basic +1 with it.

Also it allows you to do fun things like give your Warforged rocket fists. (via throwing and returning)

[Rubik]

Also it allows you to do fun things like give your Warforged rocket fists. (via throwing and returning)I'd rather hurl my entire body via body slams; acquire enough attacks and you can throw yourself faster than you can run, and you can do so indefinitely, even hurling yourself through the air to "fly."

[fluke1993]

Okay, how on earth do you guys have a better response time than the OOTS discussion thread?

[Rubik]

Okay, how on earth do you guys have a better response time than the OOTS discussion thread?I don't have to read and analyze a comic strip first?

[fluke1993]

Fair enough, I guess I'm eager to see what people think of my theories, this strip is going to result in a bit of a doozie.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, but be aware that compatibility clause allows your DM to make "minor adjustments" to existing (pre-3.5) material. You're much better off using the Necklace of Natural Attacks, which is already published as 3.5 material, and avoiding any such possibility.

You're right, I had forgotten about the web article, but if your DM is going to be a ********* and say that completely destroying something is a minor adjustment...

Actually, I'd thought that the web article was just slightly reformatted 3.0 content anyway rather than actually updated to 3.5. :smallconfused:

[Elricaltovilla]

Okay, how on earth do you guys have a better response time than the OOTS discussion thread?

We do? weird.

[Karnith]

Actually, I'd thought that the web article was just slightly reformatted 3.0 content anyway rather than actually updated to 3.5. :smallconfused:
The article was published in 2006 and the Necklace had its wording updated, so I see no reason that it wouldn't be 3.5 content.

[Starbuck_II]

Wait: In pathfinder, gauntlets just use Unarmed strike damage for there base damage?

Nope, Gauntlets don't in PF. Their FAQ explains they don't (if Monk, etc).

[Coidzor]

The article was published in 2006 and the Necklace had its wording updated, so I see no reason that it wouldn't be 3.5 content.

I guess I just don't have that much faith in people and just figured the differences were due to them typing up the reference to Savage Species from memory rather than actually constituting an update, per se.