Eldonauran
2013-06-29, 12:28 PM
Partially a shameless bump, but also a rough draft of build. Bolded areas are when certain requirements are met for prestige classes (skill ranks altered to be compatible with Pathfinder skill rules) and color coded for which are required. Character has enough skill ranks to qualify for any skill requirements (these are being left out).
Spoiler-ed for cleanliness.
Human Vampire Spawn:
Neutral Good
+2 str, +2 Cha, Con - (+2 to any ability score, Pathfinder rules)
Speed 30ft
Bonus feat at level 1
Bonus skill point every level (Beguiler favored class, +5 skill/hit points)
Darkvision 60ft
+2 racial to bluff
+2 racial to stealth
+2 racial to perception and sense motive
Vampire Weaknesses
Undead Immunities
*-Undead get d8 HD, Cha Mod to HP and 3/4 BAB in Pathfinder
*-HD is based on BAB, 1/2 BAB = d6 HD, 3/4 BAB = d8 HD, full BAB = d10 HD. Few exceptions, like barbarians get d12. Beguiler, Apostle of Peace and Mystic Theurge get d6. Prestige bard gets d8.
Vampire Spawn 1 (level 1)
8+Cha Mod Hit points, +3/4 BAB, +2 1/2 will, +1/3 Fort & Ref, 4+Int mod+1 human skills, Blood Drain, slam 1d4, +2 turn resistance
-Sacred Vow
-Vow of Poverty
**Ac Bonus +4 (exalted)
Beguiler 1 (level 2)
+1d6+Cha Mod Hit points (8+1d6+2xCha) , +1/2 BAB (1 1/4), 6+Int Mod+1 skills (12+2xInt), +1/2 Will (+3), +1/3 Fort & Ref (+2/3), Armored Mage (light/no shields), trapfinding, (first level arcane spells)
**Bonus exalted/incarnum feat
Beguiler 2 (level 3)
8+2d6+3xCha HP, 1 3/4 BAB, 3 1/2 will, 1 Fort & Ref, 19+3xInt skills, Cloaked Casting (+1 DC), Surprise Casting
--Feat--
**AC +5 (exalted), Endure Elements
Beguiler 3 (Level 4)
8+3d6+4xCha HP, 2 1/4 BAB, 4 Will, 1 1/3 Fort & Ref, 26+4xInt skills, Advanced Learning
**Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Bonus exalted/incarnum feat
Beguiler 4 (level 5)
8+4d6+5xCha HP, 2 3/4 BAB, 4 1/2 Will, 1 2/3 Fort & Ref, 33+5xInt skills, (2nd level arcane spells)
--Feat--
**Sustenance
Beguiler 5 (level 6)
8+5d6+6xCha HP, 3 1/4 BAB, 5 Will, 2 Fort & Ref, 40+6xInt Skills, Silent Spell
**Ac Bonus +6 (exalted), Deflection +1, Bonus exalted/incarnum feat
Prestige Bard 1 (level 7)
8+5d6+1d8+7xCha HP, 4 BAB, 5 1/2 Will, 4 1/2 Ref, 2 1/3 Fort, 47+7xInt Skills, Bardic Music (counter song, fascinate, inspire courage +1), Bardic Knowledge
Bard-like spellcasting (light armor casting, +2 CL divination, enchantment and illusion, -2 CL evocation and necromancy)
--Feat-- ??? (Vow of Non-Violence)
**Resistance +1, Ability Score Enhancement +2
Prestige Bard 2 (level 8)
8+5d6+2d8+8xCha HP, 4 3/4 BAB, 6 WIll, 5 Ref, 2 2/3 Fort, 54+8xInt skills, Versatile Performance, Well-versed, (3rd level arcane spells)
**Natural Armor +1, Mind Shielding, Bonus exalted/incarnum feat (Vow of Peace)
Apostle of Peace 1 (level 9)
8+6d6+2d8+9xCha HP, 5 1/4 BAB, 6 1/2 Will, 5 1/2 Ref, 5 1/6 Fort, 59+9xInt skills, Turn Undead (1st level divine spells)
--Feat--
**Ac Bonus +7 (exalted)
Apostle of Peace 2 (level 10)
8+7d6+2d8+10xCha HP, 5 3/4 BAB, 7 Will, 6 Ref, 5 2/3 Fort, 64+10xInt skills, Pacifying Touch (2nd level divine spells)
**Exalted Strike +2 (good), Damage Reduction 5/magic, Bonus Exalted/Incarnum feat
Sublime Chord 1 (level 11)
8+8d6+2d8+11xCha HP, 6 1/4 BAB, 7 1/2 Will, 6 1/3 Ref, 6 Fort, 69+11Int skills, Bardic Lore, Bardic Music (4th & 5th level arcane spells)
--Feat--
**Ability Score Enhancement +4/+2
Mystic Theurge 1 (level 12)
8+9d6+2d8+12xCha HP, 6 3/4 BAB, 8 Will, 6 2/3 Ref, 6 1/3 Fort, 72+12Int Skills, Combined Spells (1st), (3rd level divine, 4th & 5th level arcane)
**Ac Bonus +8 (exalted), Deflection +2, Greater Sustenance, Bonus Exalted/Incarnum Feat
Mystic Theurge 2 (level 13)
8+10d6+2d8+13xCha HP, 7 1/4 BAB, 8 1/2 Will, 7 Ref, 6 2/3 Fort, 75+13xInt Skills, (4th Level Divine spells, 6th Level Arcane)
--Feat--
**Resistance +2, Energy Resistance 5
Mystic Theurge 3 (level 14)
8+11d6+2d8+14Cha HP, 7 3/4 BAB, 9 Will, 7 1/3 Ref, 7 Fort, 78+14xInt skills, Combine spells (2nd), (5th level divine spells, 6th level arcane)
**Exalted Strike +3, Freedom of Movement, Bonus exalted/incarnum feat
Mystid Theurge 4 (level 15)
8+12d6+2d8+15xCha HP, 8 1/4 BAB, 9 1/2 Will, 7 2/3 Ref, 7 1/3 Fort, 81+15xInt skills (6th level divine spells, 7th level arcane)
--Feat--
**Ac Bonus +9 (exalted), Ability Score Enhancement +6/+4/+2, Damage reduction 5/evil
Mystic Theurge 5 (level 16)
8+13d6+2d8+16xCha HP, 8 3/4 BAB, 10 Will, 8 Ref, 7 2/3 Fort, 84+16xInt skills, Combine spells (3rd), (7th Level Divine Spells, 7th level arcane spells)
**Natural Armor +2, Bonus Exalted/Incarnum Feat
Mystic Theurge 6 (level 17)
8+14d6+2d8+17xCha HP, 9 BAB, 10 1/2 Will, 8 1/3 Ref, 8 Fort, 87+17xInt skills, (8th level Divine spells, 8th level arcane spells)
--Feat--
**Exalted Strike +4, Resistance +3, Regeneration
Mystic Theurge 7 (level 18)
8+15d6+2d8+18xCha HP, 9 1/2 BAB, 11 Will, 8 2/3 Ref, 8 1/3 Fort, 90+17xInt Skills, Combine spells (4th), (9th Level Divine Spells, 8th level Arcane)
**AC Bonus +10 (exalted), Deflection +3, True Seeing, Bonus exalted/incarnum feat
Mystic theurge 8 (level 19)
8+16d6+2d8+19xCha HP, 10 BAB, 11 1/2 Will, 9 Ref, 8 2/3 Fort, 93+18xInt skills, (MAX - 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcance spells)
--Feat--
**Ability Score Enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2, Damage Reduction 10/evil
???????? (level 20)
**Exalted Strike +5, Energy Resistance 15, Bonus Exalted/Incarnum Feat
Looking for idea on what to take as the last level. Mystic Theurge isn't necessary, as Apostle of Peace has no more divine spell levels to gain. Sublime chord has one more level to gain on spell progression, so another level in it, or a prestige class that boosts it might be useful (like Archmage)
Thoughts? Comments? Advice?
Thank you
ArcturusV
2013-06-29, 01:00 PM
My concerns, such as they are, is two fold. And both stem from the fact that you are using Vow of Poverty, and one involves Vampirism.
The second, and lesser of the problems, is that Apostle of Peace spells require a Holy Symbol as a divine focus. And by having Vow of Poverty you are prevented from owning any material possessions, which would include a Holy Symbol. It DOES make an exception for a spell component pouch, which is good for Sorcerers... but not for Holy Symbols.
The other problem I see with it, is again with Vow of Poverty. You are prevented from owning certain possessions. And again, not giving an exception for the Coffin. Which carries a host of drawbacks. For example, now a simple brook or stream is an impassable obstacle to you. If you get dusted, that's it. You're gone. No chance to regen in your coffin.
And I don't think the stat bonuses work like you think they do. I mean, if you become a Vampire Spawn at level one, it overwrites your race. So you wouldn't get the Human bonuses (No bonus feat at level 1, no random floating +2 to a stat). So you'd only have Sacred Vow at level 1, unless you took a Flaw from Unearthed Arcana. Which you can probably get away with on Play by Post or some other site, etc. It's not something I usually see allowed on the table however.
As for how to actually make the Vampire Spawn work practically as an Exalted Good with Vow of Poverty? I'll have to look into it. Being unfamiliar with Incarnum means that I'd have to do research first, as I feel the weight of Incarnum feats is going to be what makes or breaks the character.
Eldonauran
2013-06-29, 01:26 PM
My concerns, such as they are, is two fold. And both stem from the fact that you are using Vow of Poverty, and one involves Vampirism.
The issue with Vampirism and blood drain, is mostly an RP issue. Mechanically, sustenance (and the greater version) can eliminate the need to consume blood to survive and the character doesn't plan on taking Vow of Non-violence/Peace until he is able to overcome the urge. I could resort to the Sanctified template if necessary but that creates its own problems.
If a mindflayer can pull it off, I think a 'juvenile' vampire spawn might be able to.
The second, and lesser of the problems, is that Apostle of Peace spells require a Holy Symbol as a divine focus. And by having Vow of Poverty you are prevented from owning any material possessions, which would include a Holy Symbol. It DOES make an exception for a spell component pouch, which is good for Sorcerers... but not for Holy Symbols.
Any divine spellcaster will run into a similar issue with needing a holy symbol. While not strictly RAW, if the character can use a spell component pouch, they should be able to use a wooden holy symbol without issue. Since it is not a 'magical item', the holy symbol could belong to someone else and is on 'loan' to the character.
The other problem I see with it, is again with Vow of Poverty. You are prevented from owning certain possessions. And again, not giving an exception for the Coffin. Which carries a host of drawbacks. For example, now a simple brook or stream is an impassable obstacle to you. If you get dusted, that's it. You're gone. No chance to regen in your coffin.
Impassable? Not really. There are several things you can do to get past that, one of which is to get a swim speed and thus eliminating that very weakness. As for regen in a coffin, any coffin will do. It doesn't have to belong to you. And you still have to aquire the ability to assume gaseous form (this character is not going to be a full blown vampire spawn, and as such, the RP reason why they are redeemed).
And I don't think the stat bonuses work like you think they do. I mean, if you become a Vampire Spawn at level one, it overwrites your race. So you wouldn't get the Human bonuses (No bonus feat at level 1, no random floating +2 to a stat). So you'd only have Sacred Vow at level 1, unless you took a Flaw from Unearthed Arcana. Which you can probably get away with on Play by Post or some other site, etc. It's not something I usually see allowed on the table however.
The Libris Mortis describes characters that become undead as having been something before hand. It never claims to overwrite your pre-existing stats. You could be right on the floating stat, I'll verify it with my DM. However, I do not believe you lose your racial abilities as even the Racial Traits listed for the undead reference a 'base race' (ie, Speed: A vampire spawn's base land speed is the same as that of the base race.)
I see them more as a template than actual listed stats for a race. Base race + undead race, overwrite when needed.
As for how to actually make the Vampire Spawn work practically as an Exalted Good with Vow of Poverty? I'll have to look into it. Being unfamiliar with Incarnum means that I'd have to do research first, as I feel the weight of Incarnum feats is going to be what makes or breaks the character.
The character doesn't have to be equal in power with a wizard or cleric of the same level. I fully expect to have to use a good portion of my feats to scratch and climb my way to maintain a Tier 3 position. Incarnum goes a long way into making that possible.
ArcturusV
2013-06-29, 01:36 PM
I wasn't even thinking of blood drain or anything like that.
The stream thing is actually still a potentially crippling flaw. To quote the relevant ability here:
"Vampires are unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship". (Monster Manual on Vampire Weaknesses, page 253)
This means that you can't have a "loaner" coffin. It has to be your coffin. And since it's a stream or a brook, etc, that it's too small for a ship to be something that you can use.
Similarly just all the normal vampire weaknesses are such a pain in the butt to adventure with, but Vow of Poverty doesn't hurt them anymore than normal. Well... except the Sunlight one. There's alchemical items that prevent Sunlight Weakness, but you'd never be able to have them due to Vow of Poverty.
On the holy symbol thing: Eh.. your DM might be nice and rule in your favor that it equates to a spell component pouch. But if you start pulling shenanigans like "so and so just carries this and tosses it to me when I need it to get around my vow"... they'll probably smack you down, hard. It might be RAW legal, but it's clearly breaking the spirit of the Vow. That might fly for an Evil character, twisting the words of the law to your own benefit. But you're Good, supposed to be better than that.
Eldonauran
2013-06-29, 01:55 PM
I wasn't even thinking of blood drain or anything like that.
Ah, maybe you could go into more detail? I admit, I haven't completely checked every angle. Better prepared than caught by surprise, eh?
The stream thing is actually still a potentially crippling flaw. To quote the relevant ability here:
"Vampires are unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship". (Monster Manual on Vampire Weaknesses, page 253)
This means that you can't have a "loaner" coffin. It has to be your coffin. And since it's a stream or a brook, etc, that it's too small for a ship to be something that you can use.
Yes. Check the entry under "Speed", in the creation template: Same as the base creature, If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerbale to immersion in running water (see below"
Also, in the Pathfinder Bestiary I (we are defaulting to Pathfinder when there are conflicts), there is no mention of inability to cross running water (thank goodness) though the immersion is still a problem. Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire is not unduly harmed by running water.
Similarly just all the normal vampire weaknesses are such a pain in the butt to adventure with, but Vow of Poverty doesn't hurt them anymore than normal. Well... except the Sunlight one. There's alchemical items that prevent Sunlight Weakness, but you'd never be able to have them due to Vow of Poverty.
They are a pain, yes. The price I choose to pay to play such a unique concept.
On the holy symbol thing: Eh.. your DM might be nice and rule in your favor that it equates to a spell component pouch. But if you start pulling shenanigans like "so and so just carries this and tosses it to me when I need it to get around my vow"... they'll probably smack you down, hard. It might be RAW legal, but it's clearly breaking the spirit of the Vow. That might fly for an Evil character, twisting the words of the law to your own benefit. But you're Good, supposed to be better than that.
I am not trying to get around the limitation of the vow. I fully intend the character to carry around a holy symbol and if the DM raises a fuss, I'll comment that the character carved it himself from a piece of driftwood (even investing a rank in Craft: Wooden symbol, if needed).
The entire point of having the character forgo material possessions (of any real value) is to help offset the issue with vampires (and vampire spawns) being selfish and overbearing, thinking they are better than everyone else. The character intentionally fights against this nature every moment of every second of their existence. There will be times were it comes forward and the character acts selfish and boorish though never crosses the line when it really matters.
There is also the issue of the Apostle of Peace allowing 'defensive items' to be used but we've decided to ignore it and stick with the Vow of Poverty's limitations.
ArcturusV
2013-06-29, 02:06 PM
I suppose that helps. I don't run PF myself so I wouldn't know all the changes. But the Crossing Water thing has been in the game since... well... the first days. So I never really considered they would have axed it. It really is helpful. There's still the other annoying stuff, like that a guy can spend a single standard action to ward you off for an entire encounter. Less painful if you are a spell slinger, of course.
As for the swim thing, well. If you're Human you wouldn't have an innate swim speed. Would need to run something like a Darfellan, Spirit Folk (River or Ocean), etc. Unless PF changed that one too. But not a huge problem until you end up fighting the Kraken or something that tries to drown you.
I don't think the Vow of Poverty would really impact your blood drain at all. Just as a primary caster you're not really gonna be grappling to do it. Least I cannot imagine you'd go for grappling. I mean, yeah, Vow of Peace would stop you from doing it, as you're inflicting stat damage. But by the point you have Vow of Peace online, you're not going to be in a position that I could see you needing to use blood drain. And of course there are no actual rules that require you to feed in that manner.
Eldonauran
2013-06-30, 09:58 AM
I suppose that helps. I don't run PF myself so I wouldn't know all the changes. But the Crossing Water thing has been in the game since... well... the first days. So I never really considered they would have axed it. It really is helpful. There's still the other annoying stuff, like that a guy can spend a single standard action to ward you off for an entire encounter. Less painful if you are a spell slinger, of course.
Here is a link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire) to the vampire templated for Pathfinder. You can see all the changes and possible alternate weaknesses for the vampire to have.
Sunlight issues can be dealt with a feat
ENDURE SUNLIGHT [MONSTROUS]
Your vulnerability to sunlight is reduced.
Prerequisites: Sunlight powerlessness or sunlight-related weakness.
Benefit: You can resist all dangerous effects of sunlight for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round). After this time, if you are still exposed to sunlight, you take the normal effects as appropriate for your kind.
As for the swim thing, well. If you're Human you wouldn't have an innate swim speed. Would need to run something like a Darfellan, Spirit Folk (River or Ocean), etc. Unless PF changed that one too. But not a huge problem until you end up fighting the Kraken or something that tries to drown you.
Talked with my DM and he says that if the vampire is able to aquire a swim speed afterwards, he'll waive the water weakness. Otherwise, the aquatic + amphibious templates can resolve the issue. Who's to say the it wasn't a mermaid vampire bard that lured the character to a watery gave?
... And of course there are no actual rules that require you to feed in that manner.
The Libris Mortis goes into some detail about that. Its more of a craving than a physical need. There 3rd party rules that add a hunger mechanic for creatures that have them (see link provided above). We might use some of them.
--------------
A few feats I'm thinking of taking:
Lifesense, living creatures shed light like a torch. More specifically, undead dont. The character will be able instantly identify undead in isolated areas.
Lifebond, get +2 saves and +4 turn resistance when near living creature you are bonded to (60ft)
Endure Sunlight, ignore affects of sunlight exposure for 1+Cha mod rounds.
Undead Meldshaper, Necessary for meldshaping as an undead, use Wis instead of Con.
Shape Soulmeld, Again, necessary for soulmelds.
Incarnum Spellshaping, Cast Incarnum spells and get that first essentia point.
Bonus Essentia, To get 2 essentia
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