To Be a Dragon(3.5)

[sambouchah]

So I have always wanted to play a dragon but have never really gotten the chance. Finally(after my fighter died) I get to play one. I don't know where to begin. I'm thinking white dragon because of the low HD and LA but I do get to create a racial progression for it so I'm not sure. Anything that may help me here would be great!

P.s. I don't want to be the absolute strongest creature ever played, just want to be strong enough to help.

Thanks, Sam

[123456789blaaa]

Here you go. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1518)

As you can see, for a normal game there are very very few dragons that aren't horribly gimped. If you want a bit more variety I would recommend asking for an E6 campaign next time.

And of course there's also many races that are dragon-like or ways to become like dragons.

[Starbuck_II]

So I have always wanted to play a dragon but have never really gotten the chance. Finally(after my fighter died) I get to play one. I don't know where to begin. I'm thinking white dragon because of the low HD and LA but I do get to create a racial progression for it so I'm not sure. Anything that may help me here would be great!

P.s. I don't want to be the absolute strongest creature ever played, just want to be strong enough to help.

Thanks, Sam


https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1qTAd5l_M3pP-HayvgV3f6c4vFcwAB7dUgUHnP97FzDE
Low HD and LA: (less than 6)
Amphi (Wrymling has 1 HD and 2 LA), Breath Weapon is line of acid, 1d6 (+1d6 per age category)

Mist (Wyrmling has 3 HD and 2 LA) Breath Weapon: line of slime(sickens) and Cone of Steam (fire). Immunity to acid and fire, a gaseous form-like ability

Mercury (Wyrmling has 3 HD and 2 LA) Breath Weapon: line of fire immunity to fire, blind, and dazzling, but vulnerability to cold. Bonus 200 ft Perfect Flight

[Flickerdart]

Dragons have some of the least reasonable ECLs in the game. You could ignore the LA entirely and they'd still be underwhelming.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wyrmling Mercury Dragon/ Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Warblade 6/ Rogue 1.

Using LA buyoff of course.

Pick up Infinite and Exceptional Deflection from Martial Monk (also go Decisive Strike and Invisible Fist on the Monk).

Take Flyby Attack and Great Flyby Attack.

Proceed to use your 200 ft. perfect fly speed to make your enemies lives a living hell.

Start with a Great Flyby Attack and spend an IP for +Int to Attack and Damage so that you can hit multiple people with but a single attack and damage roll. For extra hilarity, blow tons of IP on Cunning Strike as you get to deal the damage to every enemy.

Then proceed to use Cunning Strike to keep getting standard actions for your Warblade maneuvers.

Best part is that with Kung Fu Genius you are working everything off of Int.

Throw on Necropolitian for extra goodness.

[Flickerdart]

Tippy, random question, but have you ever wondered if maybe not everybody wants to play a Necropolitan Factotum that abuses an obscure and poorly-worded Dragon Magazine ACF?

[Aegis013]

Not to mention, how do you apply Necropolitan to a dragon? Libris Mortis says you can apply it to humanoids and monsterous humanoids... no mentions of others. (also, I believe you meant Cunning Surge for extra standard actions)

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, random question, but have you ever wondered if maybe not everybody wants to play a Necropolitan Factotum that abuses an obscure and poorly-worded Dragon Magazine ACF?

Yes.

But absent asking for something specific I'll generally post whatever I feel like at the time. At the moment I feel like Monk/Factotums.


Not to mention, how do you apply Necropolitan to a dragon? Libris Mortis says you can apply it to humanoids and monsterous humanoids... no mentions of others. (also, I believe you meant Cunning Surge for extra standard actions)

Polymorph Any Object to pick up the template and then dismiss it.

[Aegis013]

Polymorph Any Object to pick up the template and then dismiss it.

A new use for that spell which I had not previously thought of, you sir, are always a font of interesting knowledge.

[ShurikVch]

Ambush Drake. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) medium, 7 HD, LA +0
Steel Dragon. Wyrmling (small, 4 HD, LA +2) have 1st CL (also from cleric list, Knowledge or Trickery domains), infinite Alternate Form 5/day (medium-or-smaller humanoid or animal), fly speed 150 (average), acid immunity, breath weapon (line of acid / cone of poison), SR 16 ...
Also, from Dangerous Denizens:
Deshada Dragon. Wyrmling (tiny, 1 HD, LA +1) have cold subtype and fly speed 150 (clumsy), breath weapon (line of electricity)
Twilight Dragon. Wyrmling (small, 2 HD, LA +1) have fly speed 150 (poor), Echolocation(Ex) - like blindsense, but 120 ft, and 60 ft vs ethereals, and Twilight Blend(Su) - concealment in dark sky, breath weapon (explosive phlegm, radius 20 ft, range increment 20 ft, also damage objects and set flammables on fire)

[Studoku]

If your DM will let you use it, Ambush Drake is among the best options for playing as a dragon. You don't have any LA and 7 RHD isn't a problem when they're dragon hit-dice (d12 hp, 3 good saves, full BAB, 6 skill points albeit with a really limited set of class skills- arguably better than some classes).

In return for this you get some decent stat bonus, flight, spell resistance, a breathe weapon and you're a dragon.

[Blackhawk748]

I played a white dragon at level 15, no LA, i wasnt overpowered, i was just a very big beat stick. be sure to snag the Amulet of the Mighty Fists (i think thats the one that gives the bonuses to all you natural attacks) because as a dragon you gonna have like 5.

Donsides to being a Dragon:
Your freakin massive: This is also a bonus, but being this big youll have issues getting into some dungeons, most bars and stores, and youll prbly terrify any villagers you see.

You will never be able to wear armor: dont, just dont. you have to buy it like barding, and you an odd shade. Its ridiculously expensive, unless your gonna wear leather, and what self respecting dragon is gonna do that?

You scare people: Also a positive, but it makes it hard to socialize peacefully when the villagers are running for their lives when all you asked for was a pie.

Positives of being a dragon
Your freakin massive: once you hit lvl 12 or so, youll be bigger than a lot of stuff you fight (especially if you have a ring that boosts you size ;) )

You scare people: its self explanatory and enables you to do great dynamic entry moments, btw that expression the have when you swoop in never gets old

Big full attack: you get a lot of attacks, individually a bit underwhelming but when your attack consists of Bite, Bite, Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing Buffet, Wing Buffet, Tail Slap (this was my dragons) it gets fun, you just gotta hit that many times.

You breathe ICE: or fire, or acid, or whatever, use it. you are a walking talking elemental nuke, take Recover breath and do it even more often.


Now this is what my White Dragon, Argoleth, looked like

Feats: Large and In Charge, Fast Healing, Recover Breath, Iron Will, Supress Weakness, Overcome Weakness.

Argoleth was a tank, as most dragons probably will be, however unlike many tanks you actually hit like one, use the hell out of that breathe weapon and then collect the frozen corpses and arrange them artistically in your lair.

Heres the ring he wore: Aegis of the White Dragon, 3/day Enlarge Monster CL 10th Enlarge Monster functions exactly as Enlarge Person except it works on any creature. Price 50,000 gp

[Invader]

Ambush Drake. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) medium, 7 HD, LA +0
Steel Dragon. Wyrmling (small, 4 HD, LA +2) have 1st CL (also from cleric list, Knowledge or Trickery domains), infinite Alternate Form 5/day (medium-or-smaller humanoid or animal), fly speed 150 (average), acid immunity, breath weapon (line of acid / cone of poison), SR 16 ...
Also, from Dangerous Denizens:
Deshada Dragon. Wyrmling (tiny, 1 HD, LA +1) have cold subtype and fly speed 150 (clumsy), breath weapon (line of electricity)
Twilight Dragon. Wyrmling (small, 2 HD, LA +1) have fly speed 150 (poor), Echolocation(Ex) - like blindsense, but 120 ft, and 60 ft vs ethereals, and Twilight Blend(Su) - concealment in dark sky, breath weapon (explosive phlegm, radius 20 ft, range increment 20 ft, also damage objects and set flammables on fire)

LA- is not the same as LA 0, technically it's not a playable dragon.

[ShurikVch]

LA- is not the same as LA 0, technically it's not a playable dragon.
Then explain me, please, what's the point to make monster class only for NPC?
Any monster with progression class is playable by definition.
LA is calculable by (number of levels) minus (number of HD). AD have 7 lvls and 7 HD.
(Seriously, check the link! :mitd:)

[Karnith]

Then explain me, please, what's the point to make monster class only for NPC?)
Per your link:

Ambush Drake Template Class
Quick and canny hunters, ambush drakes prefer pack tactics in dealing with prey larger and/or smarter than themselves, though particularly skilled hunters utilize their terrain, as well as the cover of darkness, to overcome threats singly or in pairs. The table below shows the advancement of these creatures as they grow to maturity. You are far more likely to encounter these creatures in their adult or advanced forms, than as wyrmlings (1st and 2nd level), juvenile (3rd and 4th level), or even young adults (5th and 6th level). Nevertheless, unwary adventures that do stumble upon younger ambush drakes generally find that the older members of their packs are not far off.
(Emphasis mine)

It is for use in encounters if you want Ambush Drakes at different levels of maturity.

EDIT: I am not saying whether or not it's usable by PCs, but given that Ambush Drakes are LA: -, that this template class contains no LA, and that it is intended for use by NPCs, I suspect that it was not intended for PC use. Also, the template class gets vastly worse stat adjustments than an actual ambush drake.

[Invader]

Then explain me, please, what's the point to make monster class only for NPC?
Any monster with progression class is playable by definition.
LA is calculable by (number of levels) minus (number of HD). AD have 7 lvls and 7 HD.
(Seriously, check the link! :mitd:)

Exactly that, to have templates specifically for NPCs.

It doesn't matter if LA is able to calculated, there's a difference between LA- and LA+0.

[Blackhawk748]

that may be, but i see no reason why someone couldnt play one, i mean it looks balanced enough

[Madfellow]

As an alternative to playing an actual dragon, you could play as a dragonborn (Races of the Dragon). They're basically people (of any race) that have been voluntarily transformed into half-dragons by Bahamut. At character creation, you pick one of three racial options: breath weapon, acute senses, or wings. For your purposes I would suggest taking the wings option. They give you a +10 to jump checks at level 1, and by level 12 they give you full-on flight.

Now for class, I would suggest dragon shaman (Player's Handbook 2). That class would give you a breath weapon that scales with level, plus a handful of other nifty dragon-esque abilities. They fill a hybrid melee/support kind of role in combat, similar to a cleric but not as powerful.

The benefit of this build is that you don't have to worry about monster level adjustment or hit die progressions that may or may not be an accurate determinant of character power. You have a race and a class with PC class levels, just like any other PC. No muss, no fuss. Your character would basically be a big, burly humanoid dragon with wings, a breath weapon, decent melee fighting skills, and a handful of auras to buff allies and debuff monsters. You can use weapons and armor just like any other PC, so your wealth by level wouldn't go to waste.

From a fluff standpoint, your character could be a straight-up dragonborn (a person transformed into a half-dragon to help fight the forces of evil), a half-dragon, or maybe a full-blooded dragon polymorphed into a humanoid form. That last option could be a source of motivation for your character. Maybe his whole goal in adventuring is to find a way to return to his natural form.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The most effective way to be a dragon is, ironically, to not be a dragon.
A Druid 9/Psychic Warrior 3 with Practiced Manifester can shift into a huge dragon by level 12 (DWS + augmented Expansion).

[Vaz]

Dragonwrought Kobold.

If as an Actual Dragon the Steel is perhaps the best. It has an Age Cateogry based breath weapon damage, so use Polymorph (or Metamorphosis) to get yourself into around Old Age by ECL 20 to abuse that.

[Gavinfoxx]

You want to maximize spellcasting, minimize RHD and LA. You want to be a wyrmling steel or tome.

Here's a useful thread for you:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9064.0

[Invader]

I'm fond of this homebrew gold dragon class http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=954.0

There's a dragon magazine that breaks dragons down into levels but I can't seem to find the issue now.

There's also most of the core dragons broke down by level in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9261499#post9261499

[Khatoblepas]

Pick up Infinite and Exceptional Deflection from Martial Monk (also go Decisive Strike and Invisible Fist on the Monk).

I still don't know how you're getting epic feats with that variant. Any nonepic fighter feat, yes, but epic ones?

Reasoning:
The rules for acquiring epic feats is thus:

Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

This is seperate from the prerequisite line on feats, which, for the most part, omit the "Character Level 21st" hidden prerequisite, since that is not a prerequisite for taking the feat, but being able to select it in the first place.

Next, the wording on Martial Monk:


Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats.

Martial Monk chooses from the fighter bonus feat list. But! This is not the epic fighter bonus feat list.


Bonus Feats

The epic fighter gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic fighter bonus feats) every two levels after 20th.

Epic Fighter Bonus Feat List
...A whole bunch of epic feats.... In addition to the feats on this list, the fighter may treat any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, but not listed here, as being on his or her bonus feat list.

According to this, any feat that is a fighter bonus feat is on the epic fighter bonus feat list. But any feat that is on the epic fighter bonus feat list is not on the fighter bonus feat list. While similarly named, they are not the same. It is clear from the wording here, "a fighter may treat any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat as an epic fighter bonus feat", that the epic fighter bonus feat list is not merely an extension of the fighter bonus feat list (otherwise it would already include the fighter bonus feats), but a seperate list with the previous list of feats included on it.

Fighter bonus feats always have this line:

Special

A fighter may select Bonus Feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

And the fighter bonus feat list is designated thusly:


These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats.
Infinite Deflection is not, in fact, a fighter bonus feat, but a bonus feat on the list of epic fighter bonus feats that the Martial Monk cannot choose from, since they are not an epic fighter and do not explicitly gain access to epic fighter bonus feats.

The RAW quite clearly states that the Fighter Bonus Feat list and the Epic Fighter Bonus Feat list are two completely different lists, and thus the Martial Monk is restricted to choosing only feats designated as fighter bonus feats, and not the small list of feats Epic Fighter get called Epic Fighter Bonus Feats, that are not, in fact, part of the "fighter bonus feats" the Martial Monk gets to choose from.


tl;dr Epic fighter bonus feats aren't on the fighter bonus feat list, even if the reverse is true.

Come on, Tippy, I thought you would have caught that. Unless you have some RAW hidden up your sleeves to counteract this! I could be missing something.

[WhamBamSam]

As underwhelming as they can be, I love Dragon PCs and have spent some time learning about them. The most interesting things that you can do with them that I know of are somewhat within the realm of cheese. The big three are as follows.

1. BoVD's gives an option to increase a creature's age category with Bestow Curse. Getting older is a good thing for you. Become Cursed With Awesome. It cuts into your EXP gain because your ECL goes up and it's very cheesy, but it can do a lot for you in a pinch, and is a nice capstone at 20th if you aren't going into Epic Levels.

2. Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the Dragonblood subtype. RAW they don't need to meet the other prereqs. The best uses of this that I know of are...
a) Singer of Concordance, a full casting PrC that gives you a bonus domain off of a limited list and its granted power at second level. You probably don't get the domain spells with any casting that doesn't give you domain slots to begin with, but one of those domains is knowledge, and you can trade the granted power in for Knowledge Devotion. In addition to Knowledge Devotion being generally good, Dragons have Knowledges as class skills, 6+Int skill points per RHD, and a bunch of natural attacks.
b) Practical Metamagic without 3rd level spells or the Spellcraft ranks.

3. Sovereign Archetypes. Loredrake is the best archetype by a huge margin, giving +2 levels of Sorc casting, but there are a few others of note. Child of Eberron trades in spells off of the Cleric spell list for ones off of the Druid List and gives you the Druidic language. The Druid list is weaker than the Cleric and Sor/Wiz ones, so it's basically just a way to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist, and really it's underwhelming for real dragons compared to Dragonwrought Kobolds. Wyrm of War gets you weapon proficiencies and can be used to either get a fighter/dragon bonus feat every 4 HD (I've seen it interpreted as just HD and not Dragon RHD, but I don't have access to the book at the moment, so read for yourself and/or ask your DM, though the stuff I mention here assumes it's every 4 HD) or can allow you to convert your racial Sorc spells known/spell slots into Tiger Claw maneuvers with an initiator level equal to your caster level.

So with LA buyoff, you can do something like...

Loredrake Wyrmling Steel Dragon 4/Singer of Concordance 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 10

19 BAB, 16th level Sorc casting, or 22 and 18th if you curse your age up with added Swiftblade fun.

Wyrm of War (Maneuvers) Wyrmling Steel Dragon 4/Singer of Concordance 2*/Crusader or Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10

*Could just as easily be a lot of things. Cloistered Cleric 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1 could also net you Knowledge Devotion along with Travel Devotion and Pounce. Fighter 2 would nab a few extra feats. The list goes on. The caster level increase increases your initiator level though, so that's something.

As I understand it, the way Wyrm of War is written, you don't have to trade all of your spells in for manuevers, so you can retain enough spells to qualify for spellcasing PrCs, then advance your Tiger Claw maneuvers as if you were advancing spellcasting. Use JPM to advance maneuvers on both sides. Ask your DM how your initiator level works.

Wyrm of War (Feats) Low HD/LA, good physical abilities/stats True Dragon/Melee build turning your race into a Fighter dip++.

Wyrmling Blue Dragon has too high of an ECL for LA buyoff, but on the upside its racial class skills will get it into Ur Priest.

Wyrm of War (Feats) Wyrmling Blue Dragon 6/LA +4/Ur Priest 4/Singer of Concordance 2/Sacred Fist 4

The bonus feats from Wyrm of War cover most of the Sacred Fist feat requirements, though admittedly they take a while doing so. You get 9th level spells and have enough feats free for DMM Persist and one extra turning if you need it. You can hit the fourth iterative on your unarmed strike with age cursing or Divine Power and with age cursing/Righteous Might are up to medium or large size for 5-6 secondary natural attacks. Use Knowledge Devotion and your 1/day Sacred Flames for extra damage on top. You could do better with an Ur Priest build of course, but that's nothing to sneeze at.

And just for fun, here's a cheesy TO Dragon build.

A few Iron Chef competitions ago, this (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/5588841/Dispassionate%20Watcher%20of%20Chronepsis) wonderful class showed up in someone's build. RAW it converts your Sorc caster level from being a dragon into all of your divine casting classes. I've spent some time working on how hard I can break it, and this is what I came up with. LA gets bought off as soon as possible.

1 Loredrake Wyrmling Steel Dragon HD, Feat: Multiattack
2 Loredrake Wyrmling Steel Dragon HD
3 Loredrake Wyrmling Steel Dragon HD, Feat: Weapon Focus (Claw)
4 Loredrake Wyrmling Steel Dragon HD
5 Cloistered Cleric of Chronepsis, Planning, Time, and Knowledge Domains, get Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, and Knowledge Devotion feats from granted powers
6 UA Variant Druid (Wisdom to AC and Favored Enemy instead of Wildshape), Feat: Sanctum Spell
7 Mystic Theurge, progress racial Sorc casting and Cleric casting
8 Mystic Theurge, progress racial Sorc casting and Druid casting
9 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting, Feat: Persist Spell
10 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
11 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
12 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting, Feat: DMM Persist
13 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
14 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
15 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting, Feat: Extra Turning
16 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
17 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting
18 Geomancer, progress racial Sorc casting, Feat: Extra Turning
19 Divine Crusader of Chronepsis, Choose Knowledge domain to get Knowledges as class skills, but you can change it around with a Cleric spell for better spell lists
20 Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis

Gets you 9ths from Cleric, Druid, and Divine Crusader, at CL20 (17 from Cleric, +3 from Geomancer lay lines always on thanks to Acorn of Far travel) all keyed off of your uber Cha. Persistomancy with a nice big turning pool to fuel it. Pounce with a bunch of natural attacks and bonuses from Knowledge Devotion. Sanctum Spell shenanigans. If that's not enough, spend 1200 years (personal time scale) under the effect of repeated castings of Persisted Time Stop (Time Domain) to age yourself to Great Wyrm, which I believe should get Sorc casting back at 20th level along with all the other goodies.

Apart from the cheese problem, Chronepsis' fluff makes you into the draconic equivalent of this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ), with very limited reasons to go adventuring (you can salvage the remains of dying dragons before anyone screws with them and you can destroy undead to ensure that no one gets to escape their final judgment, that's about it). There's also bit of level 20 build syndrome going on.

[Waker]

Raptoren Dragonborn (Mind Aspect) Dragonfire Adept. Bam! You are a flying, elemental breathing dragony character with a touch of magic and some resistances. If you want to emphasize your magic a bit more you might see if your DM will allow you to enter Eldritch Theurge with DA, mixing it with your choice of Arcanist (I like Sha'ir myself).