Help with Arcane Heirophant Optimization:

[Os1ris09]

So after some more research I have abandoned my fochlucan lyrist build in favor of going for wild shape and animal companion focus.

That being said can anyone help me with feat selection and build for this type of idea. I want to be able to stand on the front lines with my companion without overshadowing the party fighter (Half-Orc spiked chain fighter).

This is what I'm thinking so far

Any Race that adds +WIS/+INT with no more than +1 LA
Druid 3/Wziard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3

Feats:
Natural Spell
Natural Bond
rest dont know

Any advice?

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you want to stand on the frontlines Mystic Theurge is a liability since it only gets d4 HD and low BAB. You also lose WS and AC levels making it more of a ranged caster build.
If you want to focus on WS + AC you should take as little non-druid non-AH levels as possible.

Druid 4/Wizard 3/AH 10/Druid 3 has the most AC & WS levels possible for AH, barring early entry tricks.
You will be limited to 7th level arcane spells but gain 5 WS HD and 2 bonus HD for your AC.

The only +1LA race that gets both int and wis boni is the Greensnake Naga from OA (that i'm aware of).
Athasian Humans (Dragon 319) get +2 to two stats of you choice and are generally really good if your DM allows them.

[Spuddles]

Take two levels of wizard and use an early entry method, like picking up Versatile Spellcaster (qualify with Druid) and learning a second level (or higher) wizard spell from a scroll or something.

You would probably do well with focused specialist transmuter, for buffs, since you are going to be wild shaping and using a pet.

Trade your familiar out for something else- Arcane Hierophant doesn't actually care if you have the familiar class feature for the purpose of your familiar companion.

You're going to want an amulet of the beast or the skin kaletor, or both, to boost your wildshaping level. Each item raise it by 4, but are rather pricey.

If you are going to AH, I prefer going summon nature's ally route. Focused conjurer on wizard side, trading out familiar and scribe scroll for rapid summoning & augment summoning. Pick up greenbound, ashbound, and rashemi elemental summoning. Hang back, let your intelligent moose fly around and shoot eye lasers while you summon plant monsters and ice elementals.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, welcome to my world. It's funny. IRL, I'm basically an Arcane Hierophant in spirit, but I've never technically played one. Hehe.

As to feats, consider Multiattack depending on what level you are starting at and what WS forms you find yourself using. Flyby Attack can also be a useful choice.

Fang Ring from Dragon Magic (under the Dweomered Scales section in the Magic Chapter) gives the effect of Improved Natural Attack, I believe, which saves you a feat if you can get a wilding clasp on it. Instead of amulet of mighty fists (DMG), get a necklace of natural attacks (Savage Species), if the DM okays it (Savage Species is in the 3.0-3.5 grey space, and has a handful of wildly unbalanced things, of which this item is not one). There was some kind of 3.5 web-based update to the necklace, which might be worth looking into, but I believe nothing was changed.

Any info about the content of the campaign? Potential enemies, terrains/climates, and such? There are a handful of druid feats that can be useful in certain settings and such.

I usually pick up Fast Wild Shape (Complete Divine?) at least if I want to be doing WS for combat, so I'm not wasting whole rounds in the wrong form. Not necessary, and maybe not worth it if retraining isn't an option, as some levels into the game you can be in a pretty good form all day. As for other wild feats, many of them aren't so good; however, Eagle's Wings can be an interesting choice if you want to apply easy flight to non-flying forms (FLYING TREANT). As an AH, though, it's normally just easier to cast fly. Swift Wild Shape is usually just a waste of a feat, but it can help you get in there earlier. Also a stronger choice if you're often in towns/cities and find yourself unable to spend most of your time in the ideal form.

Companion Spellbond is usually a best choice for a back-row druid, but is also good for some combat stuff as well. Share Spell with both druid and wizard spells is off-the-hook. Imbue familiar with spell ability (Spell Compendium) is a slice of pure awesome for familiars, and a good way to give the CF swift-action buffs so it can unload awesome damage (wraithstrike, blades of fire, blood wind, and the like are all good choices). Essence of the raptor (Spell Compendium) is also an excellent one to share with the familiar.

If you want to go crazy with ally animals, consider asking the DM about if it's possible to pick up a second familiar. AH is clear about having to dismiss your familiar when the character first becomes an AH, but the wording seems to allow acquiring a second familiar later (either via Obtain Familiar, the ideal option, or Extra Familiar, from Dragon Magz). Then you could have a wand-wielding raven or some such AND an intelligent moose with laser beams.

Next, AH gives you awesome buff selection. You can guarantee that wilderness-type skill checks never fail with druid spells, buff any/all stats for your allies or summons. Spell Compendium has additional gems like hawkeye, wind tunnel, forestfold, mass camouflage, mass fly, mass mage armour (useful for summons or for hirelings), owl's insight, and many others.

Good luck. AH is a strong option for theurging, and I think you'll like it.:smallsmile:

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get a Mantle of the Beast (CC) instead of spending a feat on fast WS.
Wildshape as a swift action & +1 to all natural attacks for 18000gp.
Good advise otherwise.

The thing is that AH (or any theurging really) tends strongly toward a spellcasting focus. If you want to mix it up in melee you might fare better as a pure Druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

You can get a Mantle of the Beast (CC) instead of spending a feat on fast WS.
Wildshape as a swift action & +1 to all natural attacks for 18000gp.
Good advise otherwise.

The thing is that AH (or any theurging really) tends strongly toward a spellcasting focus. If you want to mix it up in melee you might fare better as a pure Druid.

Agreed on the last point. A combat druid might also sensibly dip Warshaper, but then you lose even more CL, and "Thou shalt not do that" and all. The OP's build is slightly conflicted as the PrC is heavily biased toward acquiring massive numbers of spells, and the character concept sounds more straight druid. But I think there is enough wiggle-room in the tier-level to allow for some conflict without ruining the build.

I had forgotten that about mantle of the beast. Way to go for overpowered items.

[Khatoblepas]

Illumian Bard 1/Druid 8/Arcane Hierophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +9

Feats:
1) Precocious Apprentice
3) Improved Sigil (Krau)
6) Practiced Spellcaster (Bard)
9) Anything
12) Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)

9th level Druid (CL18), 9th level Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard (CL20), 18th level Druid abilities.

I think.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even if you allow Improved Sigil(krau) to qualify you need to be Bard 2 to get 1st level spells to heighten to 2nd.
Then you need another level of AH before 10 to qualify for Sublime Chord.

So Illumian Bard 2/Druid 6/AH 2/SC 2/AH 8 would work but leaves you one level short of 9th level Druid spells and costs you 4 levels of WS and AC.
You'll also be really tight on skill points even with Able Learner.

Edit: missed Precocious Apprentice... with that, yes, it should work. If you find a DM that allows it.

[Os1ris09]

So I'm quickly realizing being a tank with my A.C. isn't going to work out for the theurge mix.

To give a general example of the party let me elaborate so you might see whats needed.

Half Orc Fighter Exotic Weapon Master (spiked chain preference)
Kobold Wizard (Has dragonwrought feat but hasn't been aged to make it worth)
Whisper Gnome Rogue

All of which are completely unoptimized. I am trying to add some needed front line material in any form (A.C. or summons/battlefield control/etc.)

The campaign is the Dying of the Light, Drow Wars campaign (if your familiar with that campaign). If not the highlights are there is no one specific climate/area/adventure. It is basically going around gathering allies and playing true heros of the world scenario.

I realize we need a healer but I can use items to heal and such while not being a cleric.

Would like to focus on summons while not sacrificing my Animal Companion/familar (want to abuse deliver touch spell with wizard/druid spells).

If anymore information is needed please let me know. Hopefully this helps out the playground. :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your AC is the same as a pure Druids as long as you go Druid 4/Wizard 3/AH 10 and take Natural Bond. Thats not a problem.
Get him Combat Reflexes, Stand Still & Mage Slayer as feats and he'll probably outperform your Fighter if he's not optimized.

If you're planning on heavy summoning you're better off staying pure Druid though since any multiclassing delays your summon spells.
No buffs will make up for that. You can probably still get away with it in a low-op campaign if you focus your feats on summoning but it's definitely weaker.

The question is what you hope to get out of Arcane Hierophant that pure Druid can't do on it's own?
Sure, the amount of spells known looks impressive but you'll still be limited by the amount of actions you can take so in practice it often translates into doing the normal Druid thing but with weaker spells.

[Os1ris09]

Im looking for the versatility and utility spells from the wizard side. Our wizard is a blastomancer that is unoptimized (first time playing a caster) so we are trying to make it easier for them. I have a lot more experience with it so I'm trying to cover the areas that they don't have the ability to cover (battlefield control, utility spells, etc.)

I'm willing to sacrifice power and optimization a little bit for the sake of the group for them to have fun but I want to be able to help them survive since our DM likes to cut throats and go for the kill.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Druids can do BFC and utility just fine and i'd argue that you'd help them survive better as a pure Druid.

Sure, there are a few situational spells on the Wizard list that could be useful.
Since you have a Wizard in the party who can cast them just buy them as scrolls or on a wand if it's used often.

Having them available for him to cast when a situation comes up might be just the thing to open the broad world of arcane mastery to him. :smallbiggrin:
The old adage about teaching a man how to fish comes to mind.

That's assuming that he's just inexperienced, of course. But even if he's a die hard blaster Wizard out of conviction rather than ignorance he shouldn't mind casting from a scroll of yours if it's necessary.

If you're set on AH and still want to tank your AC with Natural Bond should do ok as should you once you get some Wildshape levels under your belt.
Just don't sacrifice even more of those abilities by taking Mystic Theurge.

[Os1ris09]

Fair point in teaching a man to fish. However, to put it correctly... our wizard is a patient learner... so for the time frame we have to play the campaign we agreed it would be easier to just let them learn at their pace and that we could cover the other bases.

As I've done more research it seems that the tank aspect isn't necessary however I don't want my animal companion to be a hinderance and not a benefit since the AH class stacks A.C. and familiar together. So I'm going to focus on spell casting with 1 feat being used to help my companion be better.

Also as another question, any good companions that make good familiars?

Any feat that increase the familiar level (like natural bond but for wizard familiars)?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any animal that makes a good companion makes a good companion familiar.
Riding Dog at level 1, Fleshraker at 4, Brown Bear, Magebred Ghost Tiger, etc.
If your looking for something with innate flight you're a little more limited but it's not impossible either.

There are feats that stack AC and Familiar progression (in Dragon 325) but you'll generally get all the familiar progression you need out of Arcane Hierophant levels.
You can stack it to obscene numbers too but thats hardly appropiate in a game like yours.

[Os1ris09]

Are there any companions that can live outside the water as well as in the water?

Any recommendation on feats though?

[Phelix-Mu]

Touch of Healing (Complete Champion) can be good if you want to do more efficient healing. It's mostly best out of combat, where you can use standard actions to bring someone up to half total hp, then use normal items/spells to top the injured person off.

Summon Elemental (Complete Mage) is nice because it buffs your summoning CL, and gives you one mini-minion that you can access at will and use as disposable cannon fodder or trap-springer.

Fleshraker is a stupidly powerful critter. My only issue with them is that they are a little too common a choice for optimization. Tigers are my next favorite. As far as semi-aquatic critters, snakes are pretty cool. A snake has a swim speed and is not terrible on land. A snake built to grapple might not be terrible, but is totally negated by casters with freedom of movement.

[Spuddles]

Snakes are surprisingly poor grapplers- 3/4 BAB and rather poor str. Strangely, things like aurochs and rhinos make better grapplers.

One way of beefing up your companion is Companion Spellbond. Lets you share personal spells at range. Spells that are nice on an animal companion:
Healing Sting (SpC), Belker's Claws (SpC), Corrosive Grasp, Fist of Stone, Girallon's Blessing, Luminous Armor, shocking grasp, chilling touch, etc.

[Os1ris09]

Thank you for the suggestions. I really appreciate it.

No one can think of an companion that can survive on land and sea without help?

[Spuddles]

Um, Polar Bear, (Giant) Crocodile, Hippo, Snakes, and probably some dinosaurs from somewhere.

Of course, with all your spells, you could just cast a swim speed onto one, or use a shared alter self. Keep your pet's stats, give it a new form.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are a few amphibious companions but, except the polar bear, they are generally inferior to the landbound options.
Unless you're both low level and frequently on water you're better of just sharing Cloak of the Sea or Sirine's Grace with your AC.

[Os1ris09]

Ok. Well i have a generic question for the playground.

Since your animal companion gains HD from your druid levels is it possible for it to obtain class levels since it has an intelligence score due to it being a familiar?

[Darrin]

No one can think of an companion that can survive on land and sea without help?

There aren't any animal companions that are both aquatic (can breath underwater) and amphibious (can also breath on land). However, Stormwrack p. 50 lists some alternate animals for aquatic campaigns, and some of them can hold their breath for a very long time.

Druid 1st:

Sea lion. 3HD, large size, 10' land, 30' swim, bite 1d6+4, hold breath 72 rounds/7 minutes.

Seal. 2HD, medium size, 20' land, 40' swim, bite 1d4+1, hold breath 84 rounds/8 minutes.

Sea snake. 2HD, medium size, 10' land, 30' swim, bite 1d4-1, poison 1d6/1d6 Con DC 13, hold breath 66 rounds/6 minutes.

Snapping turtle. 2HD, medium size, 5' land, 20' swim, bite 1d4+1, improved grab, hold breath 120 rounds/12 minutes.

Druid 4th:

Sea snake. 3HD, large size, 10' land, 30' swim, bite 1d4, poison 1d6/1d6 Con DC 13, hold breath 66 rounds/6 minutes.

Druid 7th:

Elasmosaurus. 10HD, huge size, 20' land, 50' swim, bite 2d8+12, no mention of how long it can hold its breath.

Sea snake. 6HD, huge size, 10' land, 30' swim, bite 1d6+4, poison 1d6/1d6 Con DC 16, hold breath 66 rounds/6 minutes.

Most everything after that is a dinosaur.

[Os1ris09]

ok. Well i think i'll just go with a brown bear or something like that. If a create has a high enough intellegence score can it obtain class levels?

Also how does the animal companion get when it gains animal HD and familiar bonuses? Do the natural armor bonuses stack too?

[Spuddles]

I'm a fan of the Auroch/Bison/Bull Animal Companion at 4th level. I think it has the best HD to druid level ratio, and for tanks, HD is more important than just about anything else, imo. More HD means more HP. It may lose out on a little bit of str, relative to other companions, but that is made up for by its BAB. It only gets the one gore attack, but with polymorph effects (alter self, polymorph, etc.), that can easily be fixed, not to mention all the other spells out there that give more attacks (bite of the weretiger, girallon's blessing, bite of the king, etc.).

Theurge AC can be just as solid as straight druid AC, simply due to the HUGE number of buff spells you have access to. Companion Spellbond and wraith strike, for instance. Blood Wind (natural attacks at range). Tenser's Transformation. Haste, Heroism, and on and on.

And because your companion familiar is smart, it won't freak out when you buff it with extra limbs or flight. You can also share spells with it, like mental pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm), and have a psychic cow (or bear or whatever). There are some other spells out there that give you at will abilities, like undermaster or that one that lets you fly around and shoot lightning bolts (I think?). SpC has a few of them.

And of course, (extended) shapechange. That's just mean, though.

[Vaz]

If you want to stand on the frontlines Mystic Theurge is a liability since it only gets d4 HD and low BAB. You also lose WS and AC levels making it more of a ranged caster build.
If you want to focus on WS + AC you should take as little non-druid non-AH levels as possible.
Nature's Warrior with Fast Healing 1, and, if focusing on Wild Shape, you should have a higher Con (like your 2nd highest stat), so that you should have 16 or so in it; that 2.5HP becomes 5.5 (as opposed to 7.5). With Minor Shapeshift, you have 20 temporary HP as a swift action each and every round. With Magic of the Land, you heal yourself every time you cast a spell that affects you (and you're a Druid, of course it affects you). HP as a Druid is not a problem.

Trade away your Familiar for Abrupt Jaunt (Immediate action Teleport to avoid attacks Int/Day) and pick it up again via Obtain Familiar feat; congratulations, it's now keyed off your Arcane Caster Level; Effective level 33 for Familiar Companion

Wild Shape; you have 13 Druid HD. There are couple of ways of increasing this through items IIRC. At the least, take Dragon Shape for Shadow Dragon hilarities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Trade away your Familiar for Abrupt Jaunt (Immediate action Teleport to avoid attacks Int/Day) and pick it up again via Obtain Familiar feat; congratulations, it's now keyed off your Arcane Caster Level; Effective level 33 for Familiar Companion


Wait wait wait. You're going to need to unpack that bolded bit for me. It's not that I don't believe that that works like that (hell, it is RAW, so yeah, that's par for the course), but I don't see how you are making that math work.

If the trick works, it doesn't rely on the Abrupt Jaunt bit, either. And, if the familiar is as that of a character over 21st, then that opens up some possible inroads into Familiar Spell as a bonus feat (gotta recheck the language in the DMG...yay, sketchy RAW).:smallsmile:

The only problem I see with this is that you lose the chance to use Obtain Familiar to gain a familiar after getting your Companion Familiar (since I'm pretty sure that you can't gain more than one instance of Obtain Familiar, as there is no "You may take this feat twice" clause). Not so bad, as a DM might allow Extra Familiar to still work. I just like having lots of critters to help me break action economy, and I really like the idea of being able to use imbue familiar with spell ability on more than one critter.

[Vaz]

Hmmm, seems I completely misremembered the trick, and I can't seem to find it in my stub notes; I think I must have worked out it didn't work.

However, you don't actually need a Familiar as an AH, so trade it away before AH does so.

I wasn't stating that it relied on Abrupt Jaunt, more so that it was one of the better options to take, because why not a have a teleporting Dire Bear while Wild Shaped? Other options exist.

[Os1ris09]

Dont you need a familiar to obtain the benefits of your companion familiar?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, you don't need any familiar class feature prior to entering Arcane Heirophant. It actually counts your arcane class levels toward your familiar benefits even if those levels never gave you a familiar in the first place.

For a combat-focused frontliner, I'd go something like Wild Elf Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10 (8/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 1). Get Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel without spending a feat on it.

An alternative would be Druid 4/ Wizard 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Theurge 4, using these two Wizard ACFs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) to get a Fighter feat (Combat Reflexes or Improved Toughness) and +1 level of animal companion progression. You'll need an early qualification trick like Sanctum Spell or Precocious Apprentice. Still get Natural Bond, as it can help negate the level penalty for a stronger companion per adding your own effects in the most beneficial order.

[Os1ris09]

OK. So does anyone recommend a possible feat build?

I plan on taking conjurer focus and trading out the familiar for abjurant jaunt class feature.

Natural Spell is a given as is natural bond

Any other feats though?

[Scow2]

What campaign are you making this for? I'd avoid trying loopholes if you're playing with a not-insane DM.

[Spuddles]

If wildshaping, Dragon Wild Shape and Aberrant Wild Shape are amazing. Combine with assume supernatural ability (savage species) and/or enhance wild shape (SpC) to get even more ridiculous.

Less stupidly powerful options would be improved natural attack (claws) or (bite) and (improved) multiattack.

Ashbound is a great eberron feat if you are summoning nature's ally. Double their duration and add a +3 luck bonus to their attacks.

Rashemi Elemental Summoning & large [air] elementals is pretty crazy. Combine with Storm Elementals (MMIII) for the ultimate blasters. Round 1, they shock a target, thunderclap everything around them, and blast a line of lightning. Next three rounds they blast with cones of cold (CL = HD). I consider RES borderline broken, due to how much power you get out of a single spell slot.

Greenbound is definitely broken at low levels and stays pretty powerful all the way to 20. It gives your animal summons at will entangle, wall of thorns 1/day, and huge boosts to their physical stats. The one downside is that it turns animals into plants whether you want it to or not, which means no animal growth on your summons. But that's not really much of a downside when your summoned giant crocodile has +28 grapple at level 7. Using a 3rd level slot to get 1d4+1 walls of thorns at level 5 is also pretty sweet.

I recommend spending 350 gp on a holy symbol (nature's children) from Complete Champion regardless if you summoning route or not. Adds +1 CL to a spell that summons or enhances an animal.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are a couple good feats for a spellcasting focused Druid.

Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) is very strong, to the point that most DMs will ban it. Aside from massive boosts to fighting ability your summons get DR, Tremorsense, Wall of Thorns as a SLA 1/day (that does not hinder you thanks to Woodland Stride) and Entangle at will.

Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) is more likely to be allowed. It's only worth it at the later levels once you can summon elementals bigger than medium though. Your elementals of the [Air] subtype get Cone of Cold at CL = HD 3/day, providing you with all the blasting you probably need. Use it to summon Storm Elementals to make your blaster wizard cry :smallbiggrin:.

Dragon Wild Shape (Drac) adds a lot of versatility and utility to your wildshaping. You get immunity to any element you might encounter (several of which are very hard to come by otherwise), a choice of breath weapons (including stuff like Energy Drain, Poison, Force and Rust), handy special abilities at need (True Seeing, Invisibility at will, Detect thoughts, Tongues), high natural armor, spell resistance, and the fastest flight speeds in the game. All for a single feat.

Rapid Spell (CD) lets you cast your summons as a full round action instead of the normal 1 round casting time and explicitly works with spontaneus casting. You can negate the cost by buying a Ring of the Beast (CC).

Extend Spell is a staple and very handy to make your long duration buffs last all day.

[Os1ris09]

Ok, well the campaign we're in isn't very optimized at all especially for my party.

Basically the campaign was written for core only in mind. So I don't want to abuse the DM's hospitality with some crazy stuff.

I was thinking of going the following route

1st - extend spell
3rd - natural bond
6th - natural spell
9th - Cloudy Conjuration

Rest I don't know. The focus is mostly on spell casting while using my CF to hold the line if need be. Wild shape is a utility and won't be used much in combat unless absolutely dire circumstances arise.

Also does anyone know of a race that grants a bonus to INT and WIS that has a LA +0 / +1?

[alchmst1259]

I'm playing an AH right now, so figured I'll just drop in a few details on what I have going on, and how it all is working out for me. First, I should establish a couple of things about our house campaigns... Being that this is a 2 person campaign, that we run a generally low-gold (read less magic gear) campaign, and with a fairly high difficulty level, we have a house rule that grants a certain number of bonus feats and a few extra low-level spell slots (depending on the particular degree of the aforementioned details). In this case we're going with the "full" house-feat progression, giving an extra feat at 1/5/10/15/20. Our setting on this one is a desert-themed campaign, so we're pulling a lot out of Sandstorm. We likely won't go beyond level 14ish.

My character theme is that of a Fey lord (race of Killoren from RoW) struggling to restore what used to be a vast jungle, and has since become a small number of magically-hidden fey oases. His animal companion, Sir Boris, is a dire-boar who hits like a truck. We started the campaign at level 8, so I was just barely able to start with him. I also took all the aging penalties a Killoren can, because Str/Dex/Con don't matter to me at all, while Int/Wis/Cha are all wonderful things.

I'm a Druid 3 / Sorc 4 / AH 1 right now.

My feats: Being that we were permitted to take up to two flaws, I took Noncombatant and Shaky (-2 melee and ranged attacks, respectively... I won't be a Wild Shape combatant) in trade for Ashbound and Natural Bond.
Ashbound - nice little buff and double duration on all SNA spells. This is a no-brainer.
Natural Bond - +4 to my effective druid level makes Sir Boris forget I ever took levels in Sorc.
Spell Focus (Conj) - a requirement for Augment Summoning, doesn't hurt that I'm trying to make sure my blasting spells from Sorc are mostly Conj to benefit from the +1 DC (Kelgore's Fire Bolt is working wonders as a level 1 blasting spell in this regard).
Augment Summoning - another buff to summoned creatures, stacks with Ashbound.
Magic of the Land - tack on 2hp of healing per spell-level on any spell cast in a natural setting, with only a DC 15 + spell-level Knowledge (Nature) check. Turns all your buffs into mini-heals, especially useful with Mass Snake's Swiftness (which I'm loving when I have a bunch of summons out). Also of note, you can use this against undead, just tack that healing onto your blasting spells. With the bonus to Knowledge (Nature) I'm getting from Killoren (especially since I keep on Aspect of the Ancient), I barely have to roll for this one.
Spontaneous Healer - A few ranks in Knowledge (Religion), and suddenly I'm not preparing heals anymore. Frees up a ton of spell slots for other things. Between spontaneous healing and spontaneous SNA, I can use my druid spells on whatever I want.
Companion Spellbond - share spells from greater range, cast touch spells on companion from greater range (read: heals!)... since I'm not planning to spend too much time in the fray, this is pretty much a must-have.
Soon I will be taking Greenbound Summoning to make my summons extra nasty (stacks with Ashbound and Augment Summoning), and Natural Spell (so I can cast from bird-form while safely up in the sky).

Gear: Like I said, we're playing a desert campaign that will trend slightly below the norm as far as gear goes. Right now a lot of my gear is related to surviving in the waste (Ring of Sandstriding, etc), but I made sure that Sir Boris had a Necklace of Natural Weapons (+2 Stunning) to make it so that his tusks are +2 weapons with 1d6 sonic and a 1 round stun on crit (DC 17 Fort negates). I'm working towards swapping out the armor I gave him with some Rhino Hide (+2d6 dmg when charging), and adding the Valorous weapon enchant on that necklace (doubles dmg when charging). As it stands right now, though, Boris still swings at +19 for 1d8+16+1d6 sonic. If I get those Charge related items and the feats Powerful Charge / Greater Powerful Charge (+2d6/3d6 on a charge, respectively) for him over the next few levels, he'll become even nastier really fast. For myself, my number one priority is acquiring a Ring of the Beast, which cranks all your SNA spells up by one tier. SNA I casts as SNA II, SNA II as SNA III, etc. We'll see what all I actually manage to afford, but in a standard campaign I'm sure all that will be no problem.

Spells: I'm gonna keep this section short as I can.
With spontaneous Cures and SNAs, my Druid spells have a lot of options, but don't often get used in the way they're prepared. I've been dedicating a few of my slots to utility spells like Speak With Animals, Mass Camouflage, and Animal Messenger. I like having those "I might use them circumstancially" spells prepared when I can just swap them out for Cures/SNA's if I don't end up needing them. The rest I've been filling with shareable buffs like Barkskin, or Snake's Swiftness and Mass SS (these two cast 1 spell-level lower as a druid than an arcane caster, so I prepare them as such, but I tend to wind up converting them into heals / SNA's).
As for my Sorc spells, I have something of a mixed bag. Keeping with the fey theme I took Charm Person (also helps make up for my total lack of social skills). Shocking Grasp is amazing at this level, since I can just put it on Sir Boris and crank his damage up by +5d6. Kelgore's Fire Bolt takes advantage of Spell Focus (Conj) to raise the DC by 1, and is pretty decent against foes with SR as well. True Strike, if somehow that +19 just isn't landing, would also be awesome if I somehow get Boris access to Power Attack feat. Blood Wind makes it so Boris can use a full-attack action to make a single melee strike at range. It casts as a swift action, so I can have him take a "swing" at that airborne target, then use Snake's Swiftness to give him an extra swing at a melee-range target.
Snake's Swiftness is the real gem here though. I've found that while I prepare it in lower slots as a druid spell, I use it a lot more from my sorc slots. Giving Boris an extra swing is basically a no-save 20 damage right now. Get a few summons out with SNA and use the Mass version for some real fun (I've been loving getting out things with a tripping ability, and using this to make sure the enemies get and stay down). Don't forget that healing from Magic of the Land, too. Next level I'll have access to Tier 3 spells, and Invisibility is first on my list. Regular invisibility doesn't break from casting buffs, heals, or things like SS. I intend to run around invisibly SSing the hell out of Boris while he proceeds to lay down havoc on people.

One last note: on page 219 of the MM2, there is a template called "Warbeast" that can be added to an animal by training it for a while with enough Handle Animal. You see, I had been trying to find how to "war train" an animal in order to get it Armor Proficiency (the term "war trained" had been used somewhere, but I couldn't find anything relating to it anywhere). This was how I found my way to the template. We'll get to the benefits here in a moment, but there are a couple issues that need to be addressed first. First off, DM approval factor is probably a large issue here (it is a powerful template). Secondly, in-game time (14 months). Third, the Handle Animal DC is 15 + base HD, so training your Companion *before* he becomes your Companion Familiar (and thus a Magical Beast, rather than an animal) might be a squeeze. Fortunately for me, I had enough HA ranks prior to this, and prior to the start of the campaign. My DM saw no reason that, being a thousand years old, I had plenty of time to take 10 on my checks for 14 months before the start of the campaign, so I was able to apply this to Boris.
Short version of the benefits: +1HD, +10 feet speed, +3 Str/Con, +2 Wis, +1 racial Spot/Listen, +2 to ride checks made to ride it, and proficiency with light/medium/heavy armor. If your DM says you can get this, I see absolutely no reason not to. Somewhere along the way an article from Wizards had suggested doing it, though I can't find it anymore. *Shrug*

[Phelix-Mu]

One last note: on page 219 of the MM2, there is a template called "Warbeast" that can be added to an animal by training it for a while with enough Handle Animal. You see, I had been trying to find how to "war train" an animal in order to get it Armor Proficiency (the term "war trained" had been used somewhere, but I couldn't find anything relating to it anywhere). This was how I found my way to the template. We'll get to the benefits here in a moment, but there are a couple issues that need to be addressed first. First off, DM approval factor is probably a large issue here (it is a powerful template). Secondly, in-game time (14 months). Third, the Handle Animal DC is 15 + base HD, so training your Companion *before* he becomes your Companion Familiar (and thus a Magical Beast, rather than an animal) might be a squeeze. Fortunately for me, I had enough HA ranks prior to this, and prior to the start of the campaign. My DM saw no reason that, being a thousand years old, I had plenty of time to take 10 on my checks for 14 months before the start of the campaign, so I was able to apply this to Boris.
Short version of the benefits: +1HD, +10 feet speed, +3 Str/Con, +2 Wis, +1 racial Spot/Listen, +2 to ride checks made to ride it, and proficiency with light/medium/heavy armor. If your DM says you can get this, I see absolutely no reason not to. Somewhere along the way an article from Wizards had suggested doing it, though I can't find it anymore. *Shrug*

Hasn't this come up yet in this thread? It honestly comes up with alarming frequency.

The DM would have to houserule. RAW, it can not be added to an existing animal.


TRAINING A WARBEAST
A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature
can. ....snip...

The creature being trained is already a warbeast. It doesn't say that you can train a creature to be a warbeast.

This is backed up by the fluff:

The warbeast is a creature born and raised to serve as a
rider’s mount. Bred for exceptional strength, aggression, and
surefootedness, these creatures are powerfully built, strongwilled,
and openly belligerent.
All of this seems to imply that it can't be the kind of creature that a druid can just recruit as an animal companion, and the above "training" refers to using Animal Handling on something that is already a warbeast.

If the template had been written in 3.5 (MM2 is 3.0), then dollars-to-donuts it would have said "warbeast is an inherited template that can be added to blah blah blah" and this discussion wouldn't come up.

I'd be really interested if there was an official article from WotC saying you can add this to an Animal Companion. Then I could add that caveat while crushing a poster's hopes and dreams.

[alchmst1259]

The DM would have to houserule. RAW, it can not be added to an existing animal.



The creature being trained is already a warbeast. It doesn't say that you can train a creature to be a warbeast.

This is backed up by the fluff:

The warbeast is a creature born and raised to serve as a
rider’s mount. Bred for exceptional strength, aggression, and
surefootedness, these creatures are powerfully built, strongwilled,
and openly belligerent.

All of this seems to imply that it can't be the kind of creature that a druid can just recruit as an animal companion, and the above "training" refers to using Animal Handling on something that is already a warbeast.

True, and I do remember that being a sticking point during our assessment, but again, having waited until 7 to get a companion, prior to the start of a campaign beginning at level 8, and having *plenty* of time... it worked in my ancient Fey's favor.

Although there is a line under "Training a Warbeast" that reads:

If the base creature is a domestic animal, the creature
need not be specially reared, but it must be trained for
two months (Handle Animal DC 20) to develop its abilities.

Obviously subject to interpretation of the meaning of "domestic." But it implies at least that it can be done. And there's nothing I know of that says you can't breed and raise your own animal companion. It just takes time. It's kind of like how one could have just a normal trained wolf that they bought, and then take levels in druid and have that wolf become their animal companion.

I'd stay and chat longer, but I'm running late for work now =/

[Phelix-Mu]

So, and I'm pretty sure I'm right here, this is what your quoted passage should have been worded as had the developers and editors had their thinking caps on while they were working. Changes bolded:


If the base creature is a domestic animal, the creature warbeast
need not be specially reared, but it must be trained for
two months (Handle Animal DC 20) to develop its abilities.

The point of that whole entry, "Training a Warbeast" is how to train something using Animal Handling that happens to be a warbeast. Because they are more belligerent than normal animals, they changed the DCs to train them. You can't "train" the base creature to be a warbeast.

Anyway, it's a common debate, half of which springs from the 3.0 vintage of the template, half of which is just due to some shoddy and confusing writing.

[Os1ris09]

Ok, well I like the idea of going sorcerer for the AH build.

What spells would you take on the sorcerer side to compliment the AH theme?

Also I know people have suggested a ton of feats on this thread but I don't know where to find them so sources would be much appreciated.

Thanks again GITP :smallbiggrin:

[alchmst1259]

Anyway, it's a common debate, half of which springs from the 3.0 vintage of the template, half of which is just due to some shoddy and confusing writing.

Agreed. Which is why I just kind of threw it in at the end rather than making references to it the whole way through. In some circumstances / some DMs it'll work, most of the time it probably won't. *Shrug* Really the reason to go after it is for the Armor Prof.

As for the feats I listed:
Ashbound, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge - Eberron Campaign Setting
Natural Bond - Complete Adventurer
Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning, Natural Spell - PHB
Magic of the Land - Races of the Wild
Spontaneous Healer - Complete Divine
Companion Spellbond - PHB2
Greenbound Summoning - Lost Empires of Faerun


And the gear:
Necklace of Natural Weapons - Savage Species
Stunning enchant on that - Magic Item Compendium (also of note, does 1d4, not 1d6 as mentioned, I have something on my sheet to correct now)
Rhino Hide armor - DMG
Ring of the Beast - Complete Champion
Valorous weapon enchant - Unapproachable East

[Os1ris09]

Any suggestions for sorcerer spells to compliment the AH theme?

Right now I'm going

Druid 3 / Sorcerer 4 / AH 10 / MT 3 / AH 10

Feats and spell suggestions would be awesome.

Note: Focus on Debuff/BFC is my role in the party

[alchmst1259]

I feel like some degree of that will be based on the more character-dependent themes. For instance, a lot of my thematic selections are based on the fact that I'm an ancient fey lord who rules over a magically-hidden oasis in a desert. I have Charm Person, and will take Dominate Person, for purposes of turning mere mortals away, or extracting information out of them. I also took Baleful Transposition, with teleportation being a fey theme (works to pull targets into Boris / extricate myself from bad situations). I also have a lot of bases to cover, being in a 2-man campaign that ends up with a lot of solo time. I don't even know what the other guy is yet, because we haven't met in game (GM asked us to keep it secret from one another).

For the most part I will likely just go with buffs, manipulation spells, and a few blasts with my sorc spells, and let my druid side cover heals, summons, and utility. I figure both lists will work in conjunction to make my CF and my summons stronger, anything I need to blow up can be shot down with arcane spells, same with trickery like charm/dominate/illusions, and druid will keep us all alive. Thanks to Wild Shape we never really need to worry about having access to most mobility spells (climbing/flight/aquatic) so you barely need them (Teleportation at higher levels of course, but besides that...). With both spell lists available you can also use scrolls pretty freely to further expand your capability.

If you take Spell Focus (Conjuration) in order to go Augment Summoning like I did, then the spells section of this "Conjurer's Handbook" will help make good use of that +1 save DC.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863086/The_Conjurers_Handbook

Another fun and powerful (and maybe broken) combination I found involved the use of a T3 Druid spell called Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms).


Transmutation [Acid]
Level: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Ranger 4,
Components: V, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You cause the subject's venom to become caustic, dealing an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use.
This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison.
Material Component: A drop of acid.

So once you have Wild Shape, you use SNA 2 or 3 to get yourself a whole bunch of tiny vipers who happen to have a natural +15 to hide. Cast Mass Camouflage on yourself and them (another +10), cast Venomfire on all of them, and yourself (after turning into a snake as well) if you have Natural Spell. Slither through some poor fool's house and proceed to assassinate. Limited by the duration of the summons, but if you have Ashbound you're already doing alright, especially if you Extend it.

[alchmst1259]

Found a post in this thread that has a pretty nice list of druid spells for playing the blaster/control side of druid as well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12183941#post12183941

Sadly a lot of them don't work with my desert theme (I feel weird using any spell with the cold descriptor, for instance)

[Spuddles]

Found a post in this thread that has a pretty nice list of druid spells for playing the blaster/control side of druid as well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12183941#post12183941

Sadly a lot of them don't work with my desert theme (I feel weird using any spell with the cold descriptor, for instance)

Step 1: acquire sandstorm
Step 2: look at druid spells in sandstorm
Step 3: prepare druid spells from sandstorm
Step 4: there is no step 4

[alchmst1259]

Well yeah, I have Sandstorm, and am doing so. I was more just mentioning that the list of handy spells I linked to mostly didn't work for me thematically. Ergo I have Sandstorm.

[Daebu]

Any suggestions for sorcerer spells to compliment the AH theme?

Right now I'm going

Druid 3 / Sorcerer 4 / AH 10 / MT 3 / AH 10

Feats and spell suggestions would be awesome.

Note: Focus on Debuff/BFC is my role in the party

To answer your previous question, the race you were looking for was the Axani. They are a +LA Lawful-descended outsider with +2Int +2Wis. Being planar they were eligible to be made Lesser Axani to bring the LA to 0, but keeping the ability bonuses. (Losing the polymorph shenanigans.)

Now that you've switched to Cha casting, I'd suggest Feytouched or Aasimar. Aasimar is probably the stronger of the two, as well as being more well known. It follows the same process as the Axani. Instead of being descended from Lawful outsiders, you're descended from Good outsiders. +2Wis +2Cha. LA+1, can be bought off as per UA LA buyoff or loses some goodies and becomes Lesser Aasimar.

To answer your new question, you don't want to use Sorcerer. Well, maybe you do, but I'd recommend Bard for Cha casting instead. Bard gets more skills, making qualifying and skill-based play much easier. It will actually get 9th level spells in this build, unlike Sorc. It also opens up the Green Whisperer prestige class from Dragon Magazine. Now you can throw away the featureless, low HD Mystic Theurge. Green Whisperer is a dual-casting prestige class with easy prereqs that has the odd feature of progressing ONLY Druid and Bard casting.

You then take a level of Sublime Chord at level 11 to rebuild your casting (hence my 9ths comment). Since Green Whisperer can't progress SC casting you have to take all your GW levels BEFORE level 11. This does delay your AH levels a little. Result: Bard2/Druid3/Green Whisperer4/AH1/SC1/AH+9. 9ths in both casting. Better Base HP/Saves than the Wizard or Sorc versions. Better casting than the Sorc version.

If you want to superpower any AH build, use bloodlines from UA. They do cost XP (at least in balanced implementation, see the Bloodlines Handbook on minmaxboards for a good explanation of a fair interpretation.) However they more-than-pay for themselves. In addition to their bonuses, they progress calculated class features. A Major bloodline adds 3 to your effective druid level and 3 to your arcane casting level when determining features for your companion familiar. It also adds 3 to each of your caster levels. (Conveniently bringing them back to full.) It would also add 3 to your Bardic music uses, which isn't a total loss as you would end up with music equivalent to a 12th level Bard. Pick a Celestial or Fey bloodline to both fit thematically with your character as well as give bonuses to all the right stats.

[Spuddles]

I am fairly certain a level 20 character with a major bloodline would like like:

character classes 17/bloodline levels 3

I cannot find anything in the rules to suggest this wouldn't be the case.

Otherwise it'd be pretty super duper.

[Daebu]

I am fairly certain a level 20 character with a major bloodline would like like:

character classes 17/bloodline levels 3

I cannot find anything in the rules to suggest this wouldn't be the case.

Otherwise it'd be pretty super duper.

Not quite. The word "levels" confuses people. Unlike standard class levels, bloodline levels are not determined by a chart as you reach a certain XP. Instead you pay XP for them. They also do not add to your ECL. As a result, you do end up a level behind at the moment you take them, but due to the way XP is earned you eventually catch back up to your party. Net result is that you're a level behind from about levels 3-15 (assuming a major bloodline), but gain enough to make it worth it. You're reading Bloodlines as LA, which they aren't.

Edit: Bloodlines aside, Bard/Sublime Chord does what he wants better than Sorcerer.

[alchmst1259]

Unfortunately, that also only really works (assuming it does, I kind of agree with Spuddles) in houses that use the numerical XP system. Many house games (mine included) have XP based not on XP points awarded systematically but rather story-oriented leveling, IE "...and with the end of this session, you each gain a level." In such a case, I think you're either stuck using the system the way Spuddles and I think it works, or kind of screwing everyone else.

(And yes, I know not using real XP points is a pain in the ass on certain fronts, like item creation and certain spells. We substitute an item that counts for moral equivalent instead. You can't just go buy "XP dust," the DM has to let you find it somehow, so it is equivalent in that sense.)