Mr Malack's spells.

[Luna_Mayflower]

So, I'm currently reffing a game where half of the party have made themselves Vampires. On top of that, soon I'll be passing the DM seat to someone else, who is one of the Vampire players. and I'm pretty sure his adventure will be filled with said undead, seeing as he's obsessed with them.

Anyway, here's the question: What level do you think Malack's Protection from Sunlight spell is? Also, I know it was from his staff, but what level do you think Malack's spell that speeds up vampire changing is?

Thanks for the help.

[Gandariel]

Protection from sunlight: 3rd level. Duration is 1 hour/level. Works only vs sunlight (Light spells or stuff like that still hurts you)

Accellerated Vampirization: 5th level. Make it high level, it's not a combat spell anyways, who cares.

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about a sort of Greater Protection from Sunlight. I guess it'd be 6th or 7th level, but it would protect against all light spells, even stopping Sunburst from instantly destroying you? I know it's up to the DM in the long run, but it's just making sure it isn't too powerful or weak.

[Aldrakan]

I don't know if this is a direction you want to go, but you might consider making it work like Protection from Energy, so it gives a limited protection instead of flat out immunity. That would let it be lower level and also not totally remove sunlight as a factor.

Otherwise it might be compared to Death Ward, which is similar in that it blocks a range of powerful effects but ones that don't come up all the time. That's fourth level, although if it goes by hours/level instead of minutes it would need to be higher. 6-7 sounds about right.

[137beth]

In general, I'm not a fan of having lots of immunities in a game, for the simple reason that once an immunity becomes available, any effect which you are immune to essentially becomes useless. At high levels, this happens a lot--inexperienced epic monster designers give their monsters a bunch of immunities to stop it from being instant-killed by the players, but then the players either
a)find a type of attack that you forgot to give it immunity to, or
b)the battle goes on a long time with no progress.

If you want to grant resistance to spells like sunburst, make it a limited resistance--blocks X amount of damage, or X separate spells, or X spell-levels worth of light spells.

[Belkar<3]

I don't think you'll find it in the general rulebook, because Malack researched it himself, I'm pretty sure.

[Gift Jeraff]

I would call the spell he used on Durkon "Arise" and have it work on most undead created by another undead's Create Spawn ability, even stuff that take 1d4 rounds to rise, as pointless as that would be.

[Kiraxa]

Protective Penumbra from Pathfinder is your protection from sunlight spell: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/protectivePenumbra.html

[zimmerwald1915]

Protective Penumbra from Pathfinder is your protection from sunlight spell: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/protectivePenumbra.html
If you're wigged out by this spell being level 2, when the lowest level recommended so far in this thread for protection from daylight being level 3, it might amuse you to know that this spell was originally designed as a cantrip.

[F.Harr]

Protective Penumbra from Pathfinder is your protection from sunlight spell: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/protectivePenumbra.html

Dumb question alert! What relationship does Pathfinder have with D&D?


If you're wigged out by this spell being level 2, when the lowest level recommended so far in this thread for protection from daylight being level 3, it might amuse you to know that this spell was originally designed as a cantrip.

But, P from D is effective for one hour per level and PP is only effective for ten minutes per. So, you can get longer protection (and use fewer spells) against a small range of hazards or protection from more hazards for one sixth of the time.

Neat.

[zimmerwald1915]

Dumb question alert! What relationship does Pathfinder have with D&D?
Someone cloned 3.5 and had it gestate in a tube :smalltongue:

[thereaper]

To be a little more specific, when WotC decided to make 4th edition such a vast departure from 3.5 edition, another company decided to make their own system which was effectively 3.5 with a few tweaks (indeed, with a little work, most 3.5 material can be converted). The result was Pathfinder.

[Sethala]

Personally, I would say that the basic "protection from daylight" spell should also make the creature unaffected by the "instant destruction" part of the Sunburst spell (and any similar effects). The base damage, and extra damage vs all undead, of that spell is unaffected.

As long as it's just natural daylight and instant destruction that's prevented, I think around 3rd level sounds right.

[Nymrod]

Eh we had a protection from sunlight spell in D&D, we don't need PF. Night's Mantle, 4th level Cleric spell, 10 min/level duration (M: 1000gp ruby).

[F.Harr]

Someone cloned 3.5 and had it gestate in a tube :smalltongue:


To be a little more specific, when WotC decided to make 4th edition such a vast departure from 3.5 edition, another company decided to make their own system which was effectively 3.5 with a few tweaks (indeed, with a little work, most 3.5 material can be converted). The result was Pathfinder.

Thanks, guys. I appriciate it.


Eh we had a protection from sunlight spell in D&D, we don't need PF. Night's Mantle, 4th level Cleric spell, 10 min/level duration (M: 1000gp ruby).

Sounds expencive. I like my division, short-duration plus broad protections vs. narrow protection and long duration.

[Nymrod]

Thanks, guys. I appriciate it.



Sounds expencive. I like my division, short-duration plus broad protections vs. narrow protection and long duration.

The vampire's strengths are supposed to be balanced against its weaknesses. You are removing the most important of those weakness with a spell. Considering a vampire needs to be level 5+, shouldn't the spell be high enough in level that most vampires would not have ready access to it? At 4th they need to wait a while to get it and even then it is not going to be something they have constantly up till they make it into a wondrous item that'd cost 84000 gp (4*7*2000*1,5*). By the examples of the DMG, that would require the character to be at least level 17 (84000=336000/4, WBL at 17 is 340000). Of course with an ECL of +8 that makes it just a 9th level character with a lot of vampire template.

By all that I mean, making it an easy spell to acquire kind of destroys the vampire mythos as it exists currently. Sure, the actual mythological tales of vampires may mention nothing about sunlight killing them, but the concept most people have of vampires is from fiction were vampires that walk in sunlight are singular beings of great power. I think a second level spell makes it so much easier for a player to get that immunity (an 18000gp item would be enough ffs).

As for a greater protection from sunlight, I guess I'd put it at a level with energy immunity, 6-7

[F.Harr]

Well, that's reasonable, I suppose. But not all vampires are spellcasters and using the specific spell only gets you five hours of sunlight protection (and the use of a 3rd level spell slot) vs. fifty minnuts of genneral protection (and the use of a 4th level spell slot). If I understand how all this works.

But yeah, your point makes sense. It would negate Durkon's ability remain a party member unless he can get one of those pink frilly umberellas.

[Nymrod]

Well, that's reasonable, I suppose. But not all vampires are spellcasters and using the specific spell only gets you five hours of sunlight protection (and the use of a 3rd level spell slot) vs. fifty minnuts of genneral protection (and the use of a 4th level spell slot). If I understand how all this works.

But yeah, your point makes sense. It would negate Durkon's ability remain a party member unless he can get one of those pink frilly umberellas.

Well Durkon should have picked Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic so he could Persist the hell out of all of his buff spells by now! (Kidding ofc:) )

It is obvious that whatever spell Malack is using, it has a long duration, probably measured in hours/level. I only went that far into the rules cause I thought it interested you for your own campaign tbh, if we were sticking with the comic, anything goes.

[Kiraxa]

Eh we had a protection from sunlight spell in D&D, we don't need PF. Night's Mantle, 4th level Cleric spell, 10 min/level duration (M: 1000gp ruby).

Night's Mantle is 3.0, and from a copyrighted book. Whereas Pathfinder (and therefore Protective Penumbra) is interchangeable with 3.5 99% of the time, as well as being Open Game License material.

[F.Harr]

Well Durkon should have picked Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic so he could Persist the hell out of all of his buff spells by now! (Kidding ofc:) )

Heh :)


It is obvious that whatever spell Malack is using, it has a long duration, probably measured in hours/level. I only went that far into the rules cause I thought it interested you for your own campaign tbh, if we were sticking with the comic, anything goes.

Well, yeah. But it's not my campaign, it belongs to the person starting this thread. I don't play this silly game. I'm nowhere near cool enough to do that. All I did was see some stratigic choice possibilities, but I'm not good at that sort of thing, so oh, well.


Night's Mantle is 3.0, and from a copyrighted book. Whereas Pathfinder (and therefore Protective Penumbra) is interchangeable with 3.5 99% of the time, as well as being Open Game License material.

Can they stop you from running a D&D game using copyrited third-part material? Man, those are some tough lawyers.

I guess Julio and Elan were lucky that no one bothered to copyright Dashing Swordsman before Rich made it up.

[Kiraxa]

Heh :)



Well, yeah. But it's not campaign, it belongs to the person starting this thread. I don't play this silly game. I'm nowhere near cool enough to do that. All I did was see some stratigic choice possibilities, but I'm not good at that sort of thing, so oh, well.



Can they stop you from running a D&D game using copyrited third-part material? Man, those are some tough lawyers.

I guess Julio and Elan were lucky that no one bothered to copy Dashing Swordsman before Rich made it up.
No of course not, it just makes it far easier to use as a resource when its OGL.

[F.Harr]

Oh. O.K. That makes sense.

[veti]

Being a vampire isn't supposed to be a rollicking ride of unadulterated fun. There should be downsides. Particularly if your characters have voluntarily become vampires, I'd be hestitant to make it any easier for them at all. "Not being able to move about freely in daylight" is one of the biggies.

You could make the spell a form of "protection from energy" (3rd level, but it only absorbs a certain number of HP's worth of damage before expiring). It would make sense, since that's the spell Durkon uses to protect the team from sunburn. But in direct sunlight, for a vampire, it would probably only last a few rounds - minutes at the most.

Or an inverse of 'Death Ward' (4th level, one minute per level).

If you do want to make it ridiculously easy, they could use the existing 'Deeper Darkness' spell (3rd level, duration: 1 day/level(!)). But that's a bit - unsubtle.

[balladfen]

You especially shouldn't make it easier for them if they were low level--say, level three--when they got vampirism's huge benefits. Especially if they were dumb enough to, hypothetically, become vampires and thus fall under their sire's control while working with two people who had clearly already annoyed their new master by trying to kill him. Just...hypothetically.

EDIT: Of course, for a character of low level to become a vampire instead of a vampire spawn would require house ruling, but I can easily see a merciful DM, or some mysterious stranger pacing around the table, allowing it. Hypothetically.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Being a vampire isn't supposed to be a rollicking ride of unadulterated fun. There should be downsides. Particularly if your characters have voluntarily become vampires, I'd be hestitant to make it any easier for them at all. "Not being able to move about freely in daylight" is one of the biggies.

You could make the spell a form of "protection from energy" (3rd level, but it only absorbs a certain number of HP's worth of damage before expiring). It would make sense, since that's the spell Durkon uses to protect the team from sunburn. But in direct sunlight, for a vampire, it would probably only last a few rounds - minutes at the most.

Or an inverse of 'Death Ward' (4th level, one minute per level).

If you do want to make it ridiculously easy, they could use the existing 'Deeper Darkness' spell (3rd level, duration: 1 day/level(!)). But that's a bit - unsubtle.

Here's the thing, one of the characters actually cast Reality Revision with XP cost and everything to become a Vampire by forcing one to bite him while said vampire was fighting one of his allies, then turned the other guy after said guy sold his soul. So yeah, just a little voluntarily :smallbiggrin:.

What level do you think the spell would have to be before it could protect all the way until the spell wore off?

[Reddish Mage]

The vampire's strengths are supposed to be balanced against its weaknesses. You are removing the most important of those weakness with a spell. Considering a vampire needs to be level 5+, shouldn't the spell be high enough in level that most vampires would not have ready access to it? At 4th they need to wait a while to get it and even then it is not going to be something they have constantly up till they make it into a wondrous item that'd cost 84000 gp (4*7*2000*1,5*). By the examples of the DMG, that would require the character to be at least level 17 (84000=336000/4, WBL at 17 is 340000). Of course with an ECL of +8 that makes it just a 9th level character with a lot of vampire template.

By all that I mean, making it an easy spell to acquire kind of destroys the vampire mythos as it exists currently. Sure, the actual mythological tales of vampires may mention nothing about sunlight killing them, but the concept most people have of vampires is from fiction were vampires that walk in sunlight are singular beings of great power. I think a second level spell makes it so much easier for a player to get that immunity (an 18000gp item would be enough ffs).

As for a greater protection from sunlight, I guess I'd put it at a level with energy immunity, 6-7


Your applying procedural hurdles suggested to DMs as a way to avoid powergaming players. That doesn't apply to NPCs. A protection from daylight spell that offered protection from a fairly obscure source of damage (basically just Sunburst) in addition to the Daylight itself could be quite low level.

[veti]

What level do you think the spell would have to be before it could protect all the way until the spell wore off?

I think Malack's 'Protection from Daylight', as shown in the strip, is a very powerful spell. I think 'Death Ward' is a reasonable analogy, and that only lasts 1 min/level - a version that lasts 1 hour/level should be at least L6. Possibly higher.

But I think I'd encourage the players to use something like 'Deeper Darkness'. It'd be dramatically appropriate to have the vampires carry their own little patch of 'night' around with them. Of course that means 'stealth' is out of the question (during daylight, at least - pretty soon, every NPC in your campaign will be conditioned to grab the garlic and holy symbols the moment lights start going dim for no obvious reason...), but hey, should've thought of that earlier, right?

[Gift Jeraff]

I think Water Breathing is a good analogy, too, and that is a 3rd level spell that lasts 2 hours/level.

[TRH]

But Water Breathing is situational, whereas a Vampire would be using PFD all the time, AND for an entire day if possible. Doesn't seem like the best comparison to make.

[Rakoa]

Of course Water Breathing is situational. So is Protection From Daylight. Both are protecting their users from a hazardous situation.

[Snails]

Deathward seems like a reasonable comparison point. As it is short duration, a practical long running version should be 5th or 6th level. That feels right. The first spells that completely break the normal bounds of reality (Raise Dead, Teleport, Plane Shift, Domination, Wall of Force) appear at 5th level. To a Vampire, instant death from direct sunlight is a fact of "normal life".

[TRH]

Of course Water Breathing is situational. So is Protection From Daylight. Both are protecting their users from a hazardous situation.

One's more situational than the other, though. You *only* need Water Breathing when there's water that you have to traverse. Depends on the adventure, but that's probably not something your party does every day. Protection From Daylight is different because your Vampire will literally use it every day if possible. My point is that you're a lot more likely to want to traverse daylight than water on a regular basis.

[SoC175]

Your applying procedural hurdles suggested to DMs as a way to avoid powergaming players. That doesn't apply to NPCs. A protection from daylight spell that offered protection from a fairly obscure source of damage (basically just Sunburst) in addition to the Daylight itself could be quite low level.However in 3.X NPCs play by the same rules as PCs. Players are justified in crying foul if NPCs just get such cheap spells and they don't