Help with monsters for high level characters.

[drakoonity]

Ok so today is goin to be my first time as a DM I've always wanted to give it a shot. So I had an idea already in my head for another campaign we are playing that everyone is only level 6 but as I was told last minute I might not be able to do that, so in case of a backup plan I would like to ask everyone heres help on some monster ideas and how they could come across them. We have 3 characters who are level 15. Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks :smallsmile:

[Der_DWSage]

You really need to clean up your post a bit. So you're looking for just generally interesting opponents that can challenge a party of 3 characters who are level 15? Post some classes in there at the very least-different party makeups can make different things interesting.

I've liked the Aleax from the Book of Exalted Deeds as a way of challenging savvy players, but it may not be for everyone. Fighting against your Good Twin who is hellbent on killing you? Always fun.

If they can do a lot of damage regularly and readily, you might throw a single Elemental Monolith (Complete Arcane) at them, and see how they deal with the elemental forces of the planes themselves. Do be careful with this one however-if it's a low-optimized group, the DR 15/- can be a killer.

Beholders and Dragons are always thrilling fights, and can get the blood pumping when they realize how very nasty those beasties are.

If you want something with some arcane muscle, there's always Liches and Mindflayers with class levels. Something to consider.

Aside from that? Just flip through some Monster Manuals until you see something that tickles your fancy. If it's not strong enough, give it levels. If it's too strong, subtract some numbers or special abilities, or give it some debuffs before the fight.

[supervillan]

A lot depends on the strengths of the characters. And on the type of game you want to run. Want hack-and-slash? Giants make good melee monsters. But if your party is caster-heavy they might not be challenged by monsters whose main strength is force of arms, and you'll want to use outsiders like demons and devils, rakshasa, or high level undead like liches and nightwalkers. The choices are many. Plus you've got all the character class options. The most powerful foes will often have class levels. Decide first what kind of story you want, and then fit the monsters to the plot.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Make sure to use the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) to get a rough estimate of how hard each encounter might be.

Level 15? Three of them? use some giants. Like a lot of them. Like half a dozen. Use whatever the local terrain might be (Frost Giants, Mountain Giants, etc.) Best part of 200+ hitpoint enemies... it will take a few rounds for it to end, especially with 6 of them.

[drakoonity]

Well we have a minotaur that is doin about 300 or so each hit, so i might need to make him fight his own enemy lol.

[Vaz]

Use the Ironguard spell (unless Natural Attacking). If he has a Metal Weapon, this is just a "Nope" button.

Can we have a bit more information. Are you facing 3 high level characters built to Gank enemy PC/boss equivalents? If so, use Horde opponents with Improved Evasion and items of Spell Resistance. If the players lack significant DR, Miss Chances, AC, Poison Resist, etc, and the Minotaur lacks a Cleave, the Uber Charger Minotaur is damned.

Try alternate tactics, Poisons, Diseases, etc. Make the PC's a little bit paranoid when every turn they are taking a dozen saves or so.

Are there any glaring weaknesses the party has you can levarage in?

[drakoonity]

Well to try and give a bit more on each character there is the minotaur that does the whole pounce leap attack thing, which allows him to just basically one hit kill anything, a ranger that has dual repeating hand crossbows that fires about 12 arrows at a time, and the last character is a paladin. The ranger is good at hiding and bein sneaky, the minotaur is good at basically one hitting anything it touches, and the paladin we have only played with once so idk what they do much but knowing the play who is playing him, he is goin to be broken. I was thinking of putting them up against a whisper demon as everyone there hates them but they all have good will so how would I lower their will so they dont all make the save?

[Der_DWSage]

Three combat monkeys, and you want to challenge them?

Anything with spellcasting. It has fly active during the fight, and casts Wind Wall to take care of those twelve arrows. It can now attack them with impunity, and they have to think their way through the fight rather than fill it with numbers.

If you're sold on the Whisper Demon, advance its hit die. The formula for the Whispers (I'm assuming that's what you're looking at for 'will saves.') is 10+1/2 HD + Cha Bonus. So if it goes from 12 HD (Which it is currently) to 20 HD, the DC goes from 21 to 26 (Assuming you add 2 to its Charisma bonus due to the bonus HD.) Remember to adjust attack bonus, HP, and skills to match.

If you really want to be mean, give the Whisper Demon levels in Sorcerer and a Medallion of Thought Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm) so they take 1d4 wisdom damage every round it flies around. Sure, it won't get really world-shaking spells...but a Whisper Demon with 8 levels of Sorcerer gets access to Stoneskin, Wind Wall, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere...all kinds of fun stuff. Don't forget that with Flyby attack, a Whisper Demon can make hit and run attacks that keep him out of the Minotaur's reach. Give him some feats to help things out-say, Improved Flyby attack, and Ability Focus(Whispers).

Against most folks, I'd say this is a bit much. Against your group, it sounds like they enjoy 'impossible' situations and can think their way past it.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm... the whole scenario seems weird to me. If you're DMing I'd really suggest you start out at low levels, 1 if possible. Even if you're an experienced player, DMing a whole different perspective and it doesn't really translate over. Dealing with higher level stuff, right out of the box (even level 6 I'd be kinda "eeeehhh..." about) makes it pretty rough for a DM.

Part of the reason for this, is that with your players at level 15, particularly in Fighting type classes, is that as far as building encounters for them goes, what classes, features, and feats they have isn't really important. It's up to what magical loot they have. As at that level there are generally three levels their equipment comes out to:

1) Is going to negate most of the "hate" type monsters. e.g.: They have effectively permanent Flight, True Seeing, Mind Blanks, etc, etc, etc.

2) They have one time negation. This would be things like 1/day Teleports, etc, that let them say Nope to a singular problem and get around it.

3) They have no negation what so ever, and have spent their money poorly (Or the Previous DM gave them less than optimal loot). E.g: The fighter who has some +5, magicked up the butt Minotaur Greathammer, but has no way to attack enemies at range, or close the range other than 30' ground movement speed.

Thing is, if you're taking over a campaign where people are at level 15 already (Otherwise I can't imagine they'd have a reason to pressure you to drop your own plans to do this... you don't pressure people to play a particular set of characters that you've yet to create and play typically...), you inherit a bunch of problems. Including the expectations of the players from the previous DM's style.

For example: In a lot of my own campaigns, I don't autonerf enchanters or illusionists, and focus on a lot of humanoid enemies and outsiders over real "Monsters". So players who play in my own campaigns learn certain things that generally aren't otherwise true. Like Enchantment spells aren't automatically useless (Heck, even a 1st level Charm Person can remain relevant into high levels). Not too many enemies have natural flight outside of the Outsiders, so they don't invest too much in making sure they have All Day Flight, and almost all enemies have ways of attacking at range, so Flight isn't Autowin. Enemies being mostly humanoids tend to be fought in groups who use teamwork, so AoE Doom is a lot more valuable than being able to jack up and do a 1200 damage routine to a single target. Things like this are what my players learn when they play games with me.

But, hey... you might not want to play up to the same lessons that the previous DM did. I certainly wouldn't. I'm guessing since your party seems to be melee beat sticks focused on doing max damage in a single attack routine, etc, that the previous DM did a lot of "One large target" sort of encounters. Which you probably don't want to do. They tend to be kinda boring in my book. And you have to arbitrarily throw out a much higher CR monster to even come close to hoping to threaten someone when it's a 3-1 encounter.

[drakoonity]

Well I'm not taking over his campaign, I'm just going to DM once cause I kept bugging them about giving it a shot. They just are a bit uneasy cause I'm like a natural douchebag even when playing so they don't know how I will handle the power as a DM. one play even said that if I do any total douche things that are obviously me being a **** he will pack up his stuff and leave right then and there. But I digress, I want to be a douche to them just not soo much that they get mad and leave.

[Humble Master]

Sometimes, you don't need a high CR (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

Just don't go crazy.

[ArcturusV]

That's a hard target. It depends so much on what the previous DM was doing. I mean the characters are just naturally going to be built for whatever the previous DM was putting them up against.

So your options in general are: Repeat what the other guy did, or purposefully Softball them until you get an idea of what flies.