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View Full Version : "Another Genocide?" Discussion (#896) (No Spoilers Please)



Defiant
2013-06-29, 11:20 AM
I'd like to start up a thread to discuss purely the recent comment made by Vaarsuvius: "But I cannot allow the possibility of another genocide. We must intercede." It's hard to get a focused discussion going in the main thread and it is littered with rampant speculation about other things. Since I don't have the prequel books, but plan on getting them in a year or two (finances), I'd prefer to avoid all spoilers.

Likewise, although speculation is necessary to a lot of discussion, I'd rather not have anyone spout a crushing revelation for the story that hasn't been revealed yet. I enjoy getting slammed with such shocking reveals myself and end up spending a few minutes in awe (like Roy's last line in #895), rather than "huh, so I guess that one theory out of the 6 within the forums was right". Thank you for your understanding.

The Confusion

Why does Vaarsuvius believe that destroying the gate puts the lives of people on that world at risk?

There have been many other gates destroyed. Blackwing got to see through the rift and report it back to her. At first, that world did look "half-constructed", but then I realized that the poles were white due to the snow. For all she knows, that world is still fine. Why would the destruction of Girard's gate put that world in any danger now, compared to the other gates? Or why would it put the world in more danger now, because another gate is down?

We know (as does she) that the bad guys want to gain control of the gate to do unknown and possibly unspeakable evil things. Wouldn't the bad guys have a greater capacity for committing evil onto that world with a properly functioning gate? And if they can't because of the gate, they can just go to any of the other open rifts and do their evil stuff there. Vaarsuvius has no power to stop them from potentially committing a genocide on the world within, regardless of what happens with this gate.

In fact, I'd venture to say that destroying the gate is best way to prevent harm from coming upon the inhabitants of that world. She knows or can surmise Xykon is ignoring the rift. If he comes to this gate and sees another rift but no gate, there's a good chance he'll continue to ignore it. If there is a gate, he might start doing his things, notice the world within, and then perform actions which could lead to such a genocide.

Logically, I see destroying the gate as the best thing to be done for that world at this point regardless.

Possible Explanations

Character Error

But then again, our elven friend isn't very logical. Oh, she's intelligent and logical almost constantly. But in her current emotional state, it is easy to jump to conclusions. With the results of the familicide weighing heavily in her mind now, it is natural that her thoughts will naturally gravitate towards atonement and prevention of such an act happening again.

Bad Guys Error

Alternatively, she might be counting on the bad guys seeking out the gates to "unleash the Snarl" or somehow use the Snarl for evil purposes. With no Snarl apparent at this time, and only a world within, their efforts may end up entirely fruitless. So the best thing for this world, and the world within, would be to have the guys get to the gate and start trying to do something with it that's entirely impossible and a waste of time.

Managerial Decision-Making

The worry over "another genocide" may be a rational, although extremely low-chance scenario, based on the like course of events that would follow. Of course, such a chance is unacceptable for her, given her fervent self-blame.

The reason she's trying to stop them from destroying the gate is that, because you can't "undestroy" the gate (just like the Monster in the Dark can't "uneat" Haley and Belkar), such a decision must be made as carefully as possible. Since Roy does not have all the information, she must stop him at all costs so that this information can be relayed to him before he makes his decision.

Discuss

As such, I'd like to discuss which possibility is more likely, whether I've missed something, improperly arrived to some conclusion, and so on. And remember, no spoilers please :smallsmile: Just based on stuff we know so far (excluding prequel books and in-book commentary).

Copperdragon
2013-06-29, 11:53 AM
Since I don't have the prequel books, but plan on getting them in a year or two (finances), I'd prefer to avoid all spoilers.

This has nothing to do with prequels. It is rooted in what Shojo told the Order. What Redcloak seems to know is basically just that (at least in regard to the Snarl).


Why does Vaarsuvius believe that destroying the gate puts the lives of people on that world at risk?

Vaarsuvius seems to think that destroying all gates could somehow "unhinge" the world beyond the gate, which then would lead to "everyone dies". Note that Vaarsuvius does not know that would happen, but he considers this to be a possibility, therefore, does not want to risk it.
I think the question is answered?

A bit more: Every gate destroyed might be a risk for the world beyond, and all gates could be a 100% for the "Big Unhinge-ing". Vaarsuvius knows it is not necessary to destroy this one, as there is no "Superweapon" beyond it that Xykon could use. Ergo, there is no need to risk the lives of "everyone beyond" until further information has been gathered.


Discuss

How I hate first-posts in a thread that end with this. Makes me want to leave right away. If your point or idea isn't discussworthy, this is not going to change it.

I bet Vaarsuvius bites his behind now he kept the thing with the "planet inside the gate" to himself instead of telling his comrades. It was a stupid move to keep it unsaid, he pays for that now.

Tock Zipporah
2013-06-29, 01:41 PM
If the other world is "inside" the main world, think of it like a small house built inside a larger one. The five gates are essentially pillars holding up the fabric of reality. If one pillar breaks, the others can hold the weight up. If two or three break, the ceiling above starts to buckle (ie. The rift in Azure City growing larger and larger). Maybe two can hold it up, maybe they'll collapse. But if you break another one, there's only ONE pillar left to hold up a ceiling designed to be supported by five. Can that one, sole pillar hold it up? Who knows.

And even if the main world isn't destroyed, the internal damage when the interior support structures break could be catastrophic to anything on the inside.

Does V know "for sure" this will happen? No. But it's a risk he isn't willing to take.

Peelee
2013-06-29, 01:42 PM
Short answer: V doesn't know that it will kill the world. V also doesn't know that it won't. Hence that she doesn't want to risk another genocide. It's a possible outcome, and any chance over 0% is an unacceptable risk.

Defiant
2013-06-29, 02:32 PM
How I hate first-posts in a thread that end with this. Makes me want to leave right away. If your point or idea isn't discussworthy, this is not going to change it.

In case you haven't noticed, I was attempting to direct the discussion given that I've already established a few likely answers. You'll have to excuse me for writing so many corporate reports that I now have the idea of a final Conclusion/Recommendation section ingrained in my writing.


I bet Vaarsuvius bites his behind now he kept the thing with the "planet inside the gate" to himself instead of telling his comrades. It was a stupid move to keep it unsaid, he pays for that now.

She kept it unsaid because that would have raised questions about her activities involving the soul-splice.

Katuko
2013-06-29, 05:35 PM
She kept it unsaid because that would have raised questions about her activities involving the soul-splice.

Not really. The party already knew V was temporarily buffed up with some sort of super-magic, and Durkon accepted the reply that it was a one-time-only deal with no further questions asked.

O-Chul has already been debriefed on what happened during the fight with Xykon, which is pretty simple: V attacked Xykon with his temporary super-magic, but ultimately failed and got knocked down and out of his super-mode. O-Chul used the distraction to escape and wound Redcloak, then snatch the phylactery. Everything that happened afterwards was done by "regular" V and had nothing to do with the soul splice. All V would have to tell the party was exactly what he told Durkon: He overestimated his borrowed arcane power and squandered it.

Even Roy had some knowledge of what was going on, since he actually exchanged a few words with the splices in ghost form. He never got to know that they were evil spellcasters bound to V by beings from the nether planes, and so V could easily have explained the debt away in vague terms. The party would only know that he owed something for the borrowed super-magic, but not exactly how much or to whom/what. Durkon assumed XP cost, Roy might assume money to the wizards "hired".

V didn't tell Roy about the world right away, however, because Blackwing only told V later; and at that point the party didn't even seem inclined to believe in Blackwing's existence as an intelligent creature. V commented to BW that he'd wait before he said anything because they had absolutely no idea what the vision could mean. The time in the Empire of Blood has been spent on other things (the whole bounty hunter/Linear Guild conflict for example) and it's just now - when they have suddenly found the gate and are about to destroy it - that V gets a kick in the mental butt to actually act on the assumptions.

As for the assumptions themselves - we can't really say much. I guess V believes that the world-within-the-world should be explored and studied before the gates are shut, since each of them explode violently when destroyed. Messing with tears in the fabric of space-time might not release the Snarl after all, but it might impact the world within this pocket dimension or whatever it is by severing its tie to the "real" slash "anchor" dimension.

Copperdragon
2013-06-30, 02:40 AM
V didn't tell Roy about the world right away, however, because Blackwing only told V later; and at that point the party didn't even seem inclined to believe in Blackwing's existence as an intelligent creature. V commented to BW that he'd wait before he said anything because they had absolutely no idea what the vision could mean. The time in the Empire of Blood has been spent on other things (the whole bounty hunter/Linear Guild conflict for example) and it's just now - when they have suddenly found the gate and are about to destroy it - that V gets a kick in the mental butt to actually act on the assumptions.

The rest of your post is excellent, but I cannot agree to this part.

BW is only an issue because Vaarusivus did not try to clear it in a calm situation. Besides that, he still could have told about the World in the Gate, if he did in a serious way (and he always is serious) they would have believed it.
At least, Roy would remember now and say something as "We do not know enough about this situation. We cannot risk destroying a world" - which is everything that is required at the moment and everything Vaarsuvius currently wants to communicate.

Amphiox
2013-06-30, 02:50 AM
To me, V is doing basic psychological overcompensation.

She cast Familicide without consideration or care for unintended consequences, and when she found out the actual extent of those unintended consequences, she was devastated (note that V has not, ever, shown any guilt or remorse about the deaths of any of the Black Dragons only of the dragon relatives she had not thought to consider to be at risk when she cast Familicide).

Now, having once shot herself in the foot, so to speak, she is now gun-shy.

The likelihood that destroying Girard's Gate will cause anything remotely resembling a genocide to the planet within is almost zero, but it isn't exactly zero, and V is now hypersensitive to seeing potential genocides everywhere.

Bulldog Psion
2013-06-30, 02:52 AM
I also wondered why destroying this gate in particular carries a risk of genocide when the previous ones didn't. In fact, if there's no Snarl, I don't see why destroying all five gates would do anything except open 5 routes from one world to the other.

hamishspence
2013-06-30, 02:55 AM
She cast Familicide without consideration or care for unintended consequences, and when she found out the actual extent of those unintended consequences, she was devastated (note that V has not, ever, shown any guilt or remorse about the deaths of any of the Black Dragons only of the dragon relatives she had not thought to consider to be at risk when she cast Familicide).

Actually, this strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html

shows a hint of concern for the Black Dragons themselves:

"Can I be sure that not one found a more peaceful existence? They were mortals with free will, after all - no matter how few chose to exercise it".

Nymrod
2013-06-30, 02:59 AM
Or you know, if all five gates are destroyed, the rifts expand and the two worlds implode upon each other like in Fringe. That will carry quite the death toll (and makes a lot of sense imo).

Zerter
2013-06-30, 03:13 AM
Vaarsuvius says she does not know what will happen. She does however know that what they know about the gates is false. That is reason enough not to destroy the gates without discussing it first so a more fully informed decision can be made. Actually, as things stand there seems to be no one that knows how the gates/snarl work.

Katuko
2013-06-30, 06:52 AM
The rest of your post is excellent, but I cannot agree to this part.

BW is only an issue because Vaarusivus did not try to clear it in a calm situation. Besides that, he still could have told about the World in the Gate, if he did in a serious way (and he always is serious) they would have believed it.
At least, Roy would remember now and say something as "We do not know enough about this situation. We cannot risk destroying a world" - which is everything that is required at the moment and everything Vaarsuvius currently wants to communicate.

True enough, just mentioning the rift thing to Roy would have been enough. Having a heavy mind from everything else that just happened, however, likely put a temporary dampener on what speculation V would be inclined to do.

On that day alone, V:
- Almost got killed by an ancient black dragon.
- Accepted a deal with fiends.
- Utterly wrecked half a species of intelligent creatures.
- Found out that his mate and children despised what he had become.
- Almost got killed by an epic-level lich due to arrogance.

The part of "a bird told me about something weird it saw in the rift" is less personal and of less consequence at that time than all the other, much more personal, events. If they hadn't been caught up with the Linear Guild in Bleedingham, Roy might have been told by now.

The best time to talk might have been while they were searching the desert back and forth, but maybe V was more focused on just casting his/her spells in order to suppress the rest of the recent events. It's hard to say, but ever since the splice V hasn't been focused on much else at all.

Do we know what O-Chul has said to anyone, by the way? Redcloak spoke directly to him about how the Snarl didn't seem to do much despite the rift growing huge, but of course O-Chul was more interested in the innocents that would be used as test subjects. He likely didn't gleam any specific info from the encounter other than "the crazy goblin is bringing about the apocalypse".

Copperdragon
2013-06-30, 11:05 AM
I want to add again Vaarsuvius had plenty of time after that day. There's no excuse for Vaarsuivus not having passed that piece of information on.

Have you ever been to a LARP? There are always players like Vaarsuvius who "eat the plot" by keeping crucial information/artefacts/items/whatever to themselves. :smalltongue:

David Argall
2013-06-30, 03:18 PM
I want to add again Vaarsuvius had plenty of time after that day. There's no excuse for Vaarsuivus not having passed that piece of information on.

Have you ever been to a LARP? There are always players like Vaarsuvius who "eat the plot" by keeping crucial information/artefacts/items/whatever to themselves. :smalltongue:
So you are saying that V's behavior was perfectly normal and common. Maybe not best policy, but hardly unpredictable or weird.

LuisDantas
2013-06-30, 07:56 PM
We actually know very little, and mostly from suspect sources, about the Gates and the Snarl.

Even Redcloak, who is betting a lot on how they behave, pretty much admits his lack of knowledge to O-Chul in #544 and #545.

The tale of the Order of the Scribble in #276 and #277 mentions their origin.

Hinjo discusses them a bit in #411, but I don't get the vibe that he actually knows a lot.

Soon confirms in #464 that destroying a gate isn't necessarily a bad idea. The idea was suggested previously by an Azurite spellcaster in #448 as well.

If nothing else, destroying a gate makes the continued existence of the others more of a need. It is very much a "not putting all your eggs in just one basket" thing... far as we know.

All in all, "no one is quite certain" is a fair statement.

Copperdragon
2013-07-01, 02:07 AM
So you are saying that V's behavior was perfectly normal and common. Maybe not best policy, but hardly unpredictable or weird.

Who claimed it was unpredictable or weird? Yes, it was normal, but we're not talking about not telling there's no Coke anymore in the vending machine, we're talking about a quest to rescue the universe.
Yes, Vaarsuvius reasons for not sharing the information are understandable - but it still was stupid beyond any words he did not share it (and it bites him now).

dps
2013-07-01, 06:39 AM
A bit more: Every gate destroyed might be a risk for the world beyond, and all gates could be a 100% for the "Big Unhinge-ing". Vaarsuvius knows it is not necessary to destroy this one, as there is no "Superweapon" beyond it that Xykon could use. Ergo, there is no need to risk the lives of "everyone beyond" until further information has been gathered.


How does V know any such thing? V knows that there's a world of some sort inside the rift--that doens't necessarily preclude there being a "superweapon" that Xykon or some other villian could use as well.

Copperdragon
2013-07-01, 07:19 AM
How does V know any such thing? V knows that there's a world of some sort inside the rift--that doens't necessarily preclude there being a "superweapon" that Xykon or some other villian could use as well.

Vaarsuvius knows the World is not some chaotic "unmake everything" thing. Sure, a planet can be a formidable weapon if you drop it on the head of your enemies, but it's not like you need to act at once to prevent Xykon from doing that...

As far as Vaarsuvius is informed, the real estate Blackwing saw is not the gun he was expecting.

David Argall
2013-07-01, 01:19 PM
Vaarsuvius knows the World is not some chaotic "unmake everything" thing. Sure, a planet can be a formidable weapon if you drop it on the head of your enemies, but it's not like you need to act at once to prevent Xykon from doing that...

As far as Vaarsuvius is informed, the real estate Blackwing saw is not the gun he was expecting.
Which does not preclude it from being a "gun", or even make it at all unlikely. In fact, V knows nothing more that should alter his choice about when to destroy the gate. But she has just had a severe mental shock and even wild theories are sounding like serious reasons to do nothing to him. She is likely to rcover, but not before this gate is dealt with.

Copperdragon
2013-07-01, 01:23 PM
Which does not preclude it from being a "gun", or even make it at all unlikely.

Of course not. I can also bash your head in with a vase filled with flowers. But if I come into your home and expect a gun on the table but find a vase, I'm not really saying "Ah, a weapon!!!11"

Peelee
2013-07-02, 03:38 PM
Of course not. I can also bash your head in with a vase filled with flowers. But if I come into your home and expect a gun on the table but find a vase, I'm not really saying "Ah, a weapon!!!11"

I would just like to note how awesome it would be if you did, in fact, do that.

David Argall
2013-07-03, 11:55 PM
Of course not. I can also bash your head in with a vase filled with flowers. But if I come into your home and expect a gun on the table but find a vase, I'm not really saying "Ah, a weapon!!!11"
Let's extend the analogy a bit. I hear that Wifey killed her first hubby, and I am worried she has heard about Fifi. I don't really know her plans, but she seemed pretty hostile not long ago. There has been no really recent threats, but I have no idea what that means. Now I see the vase. What does it mean? Nothing? Anything at all? It could be her weapon of choice. It could be completely irrelevant. It could be ... well, just about anything.
But it is not a reason to relax my guard. I do that, and I have a very good chance of becoming another ex-hubby.