DFA VS Warmage?

[CyberThread]

How do the Dragon fire adept and the warmage compare for being blaster types and magical variety without getting into prc or feat things like sandshaper and bloodlines.

[limejuicepowder]

DFA by a pretty wide margin, IMO. Their main stat is con, all of their abilities are at-will, they have better armor, better out of combat utility, and they can BFC while blasting. The warmage probably has them beat (until 5-fold breath of tiamat comes online) in raw blasting power, but not by enough to make up for all the other shortcomings of the class.

[Turion]

Meh, I'll give it a shot.

Warmage spells and abilities are basically variations on one theme: he casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down. Thing is, he gets a lot of them. To the exclusion of most of the really good buffs, or battlefield control, or tactical movement, or summoning, or thinkamancy, or lookamancy, or just about anything else. He blows stuff up with magic.

DFAs, on the other hand, have more variety in their options available (bfc, all day buffs, tactical movement, standard action geas/quest, some other stuff). Their problem is, they tend to all have the same build. High-con race with dragonborn of bahamut, heart aspect to qualify for metabreath feats, then entangling exhalation, maybe a few metabreaths, extra invocation and that dragon feat to nab warlock invocations, and that's about it. They tend to take a lot of the same invocations, too: endure exposure, see the unseen, humanoid shape, voidsense, baleful geas (assuming they have a high enough CHA), chilling fog, and greater draconic flight. Of these, maybe two are non critical, leaving a total of three to switch around. Furthermore, DFAs tend to be evil, because fivefold breath of tiamat is much better than discorporating breath of bahamut. Oh, yeah, the breath effects: sickening breath, acid breath, thunder breath, maybe lightning breath, 5xBoT, and force breath. Also, I've heard several people say that in play, they are incredibly boring. So there's that, too.
[/essay]

[CyberThread]

That seems if your taking into account, super optimized builds, which you could say about any class would be boring if they all mimic it.

[Turion]

But here's the thing: a lot of the listed invocations are actually necessary. One keeps your allies from getting murderated by your breath weapon. Several give effects that you absolutely HAVE to have in high level play (energy immunity, flight, see invisibility, darkvision, alternate senses). The other three I mentioned, baleful geas, chilling fog, and humanoid shape, are just giving a few extra options. Keep in mind, baseline DFAs do exactly one thing in combat: breathe fire for damage. Most of the feats I suggested, and a couple of the invocations, just give you something to do besides "I breathe fire for 5d6 damage. Again." They also give you a way to deal with evasion; almost everything you do gets negated by it. Dragonborn mongrelfolk is a bit OTT, I will admit, but it's pretty much always the first suggestion I hear for DFA builds.
So, kinda what I'm getting at is, unless the character is moderately well built, the player is in danger of falling asleep at the table when they can contribute, or getting frustrated when they can't (because they can't see or reach the enemy, or they've been blinded, or it puts them in range of an enemy breath weapon, or...).
By the way, I should probably note that I consider this to be medium-op, rather than high. As noted, low-op DFAs tend to be, unfortunately, rather boring. I have no idea what I'd do with a DFA in a high-op game (diplomancy shenanigans with beguiling influence and humanoid shape?). A warmage, on the other hand, would be very interesting in high op; something along the lines of "cast ALL the spells!" With rainbow servant/sandshaper etc...

[Tvtyrant]

Warmage IMO. A good Warmage always picks up Great Thunderclap at level 5 in order to maximize control, and heighten spell earlier. You get 4 advanced learning uses, with the first one being a dud (take Dawnburst.) Level 11 you take Wall of Force, and at level 16 you can get Howling Chain, Contingency, or Forcecage.

You already get some dang good spells (Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Sleet Storm, Disintegrate, the Prismatic line, etc.) The Warmage doesn't match up to its brothers, but I would put it ahead of a DFA. It does better damage, it has more variety (Entange + Slow is the DFAs only real hammer to my knowledge) and it can access a lot more abilities.

All of the above is just my opinion of course.

[CyberThread]

Isn't great thunderclap a spell level 7?

[Spuddles]

I think black tentacles and prismatic spray put the warmage ahead of the DFA, but it depends on encounter build and number per day.

[Piggy Knowles]

Warmage is honestly underrated. Blasting in general is much maligned, but people (including myself) go gaga over things like archery, when blasting is really just archery with a high special effects budget, and a lot harder to shut down.

Then there's the fact that there are actually some cool spells on the warmage list. Some of the biggies were already mentioned, but from flipping through, the following come to mind:


Pyrotechnics
Shatter
Whirling Blade (I know that it's honestly just functionally a blast spell, but it's a cool blast spell)
Gust of Wind
Ice Storm
Sleet Storm
Stinking Cloud
Poison (at a lower level than clerics get, although only useful if your DM rules that Wisdom should be replaced with "casting stat")
Black Tentacles
Cloudkill
Acid Fog
Fire Seeds
Freezing Sphere
Disintegrate
Earthquake
Waves of Exhaustion
Prismatic Spray
Prismatic Wall
Incendiary Cloud
Elemental Swarm


Add on the fact that they can get metamagic and similar feats to get other fun effects (Fell Drain is pretty nice, for instance, and they have enough Conjuration spells to make Cloudy Conjuration a fun little bonus debuff at low levels), and that unlike most blasters they pretty much always have an answer to things like energy resistance and SR, and that they have eclectic/advanced learnings to further expand their spell list.

I know they're no beguiler or dread necro, and they lack arcane fusion and the like to go all mailman on folks, but they're a pretty solid class. They just get a lot of hate because blasting in general gets a lot of backlash (for good reason - it's one of the less effective things you can do as a wizard).

[Tvtyrant]

Isn't great thunderclap a spell level 7?

The Faerun one is, it was reprinted as a level 3 spell in the Spell Compendium. It targets all three saves and is a very good debuff for the level. As a level 7 it sucks, since you could use Stun Ray instead.

[Wings of Peace]

Warmage is generally regarded as a terrible class. I tend to agree with that assessment on the grounds that from a resource management point of view it makes more sense to let someone like a Warlock of DFA handle the blasting since they aren't operating on a finite number of blasts and gain some additional utility from their class features and core stats to support them in the role.

[sonofzeal]

DFA: close range, more durable, more consistent, more utility.

Warmage: long range, more burst damage, more optimization potential.

[Invader]

I'll second the fact that DFA's are incredibly boring. Every round is; breath fire, make save, repeat for an entire campaign. I will admit they have good OOC utility but combat wise they're worse than fighters.

[Tvtyrant]

Warmage is generally regarded as a terrible class. I tend to agree with that assessment on the grounds that from a resource management point of view it makes more sense to let someone like a Warlock of DFA handle the blasting since they aren't operating on a finite number of blasts and gain some additional utility from their class features and core stats to support them in the role.

At low levels a Warmage can keep up with the infinite number of blasts game by using acid splatter or fiery burst, and at mid-high levels it has so many spell slots it doesn't matter. Resource Management in mid-high level D&D is barely even a concern, considering that many full adventuring days feature a maximum of 12 rounds of combat.

[Chronos]

Wait, who goes gaga over archery? A lot of folks want to like it, but it seems to me to be nigh-universal consensus that D&D archery is mostly underpowered.

[Alienist]

As a proper caster Warmages have the following advantages:

They get more spells when they go up levels
They do more damage with their spells when they go up levels
They get access to much nastier spells as they go up levels

The N^3 progression is kind of hard to beat in the long run.

In the short run ... has anyone played a level 1 Warmage? Can it beat a Fighter more than 50% of the time?

[Grayson01]

What book is DFA in?

[Invader]

What book is DFA in?

Dragon Magic

[Piggy Knowles]

Wait, who goes gaga over archery? A lot of folks want to like it, but it seems to me to be nigh-universal consensus that D&D archery is mostly underpowered.

Not arguing that it isn't underpowered, just that it's something people really like. Almost every game I've played in has had someone playing an archer of one variety or another.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have to agree on the "DFA is boring" thing. I had a player run a warlock in a campaign once. Now, this was a guy who really got into the role-playing, who was very creative with tactics and descriptions and all... and a few levels in he was getting very bored with the character, mechanically speaking. Every round was "fly around, eldrich blast," and the numbers started falling behind fast. I've never had a DFA in a game, but I can't imagine it works differently.

[Psyren]

Another advantage to DFA is that the breath is supernatural. That means you can use it in a grapple, bypass SR, and bypass immunity. I know which of the two I'd rather have on my team when fighting some golems.

Having said that, splat books add a lot of nice evocations to help make advanced learning more worthwhile.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DFA can use Endure Exposure on his party and never worry about hitting them with his breath. Warmage has to be careful with his AoEs when allies are in melee unless he gets Sculpt Spell or Extraordinary Spell Aim, neither of which are automatic/free (+1 metamagic or Spellcraft DC 25 + spell level).

Warmage gets some good crowd controls later on (Ice Storm, Black Tentacles), but can't really do anything but deal damage in the earlier levels. DFA can get Entangling Exhalation at 1st level, deal more damage per breath with it, and keep opponents debuffed for the entire fight.

Warmage can get Reserve feats to get at-will damage that's fairly even with what a DFA or Warlock can do, especially with Versatile Spellcaster tricks. DFA can get Power Surge (Dragon 313), allowing him to take metabreath feats from the Draconomicon.

DFA gets better out of combat utility, but Warmage can get Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster and get access to the entire Wizard spell list. Warmage can also use Eternal Wands of any arcane spell in the game, once he can afford them. DFA gets UMD as a class skill, so wands and scrolls are fair game.

The two classes are equal IMO, it really just comes down to play style. If you enjoy more complicated characters, go with a Warmage. If you want to keep it simple, play a DFA.

[Keld Denar]

I played a DFA in Undermountain which is nearly a straight combat slog. It was reasonably effective. I went Dragonborn Garden Gnome because Con is sexy, and I didn't feel like being a dirty Mongrelfolk. Even getting creative with placement and threatening with my longspear (1d4+1 woot!) while layering on the debuffs, it WAS kinda boring compared to my usual caster choice.

The most annoying thing was having to continuously remind the DM to take off X for attack rolls and Y for AC due to layering on Enfeebling Breath and Entangling Exhalation, but that's pretty much standard for any serious debuffer.

[Piggy Knowles]

Another advantage to DFA is that the breath is supernatural. That means you can use it in a grapple, bypass SR, and bypass immunity. I know which of the two I'd rather have on my team when fighting some golems.

Warmages have plenty of SR: no spells as well, and enough variety in blasting that they can get around most immunities. Casting in a grapple is tougher, though - I think that limits them pretty much to shout and wail of the banshee.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I thought Warmages got sudden metamagic as bonus feats. Sudden Still would definitely come in handy during a grapple.

And don't forget they get the much more useful eidetic learning ACF in PHII, which gives more versatility than the normal advanced learning.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One other thing that's not coming up too much: DFA is just not as good at delivering raw damage, outside of Fivefold Breath and metabreath cheese. Evocation spells' 1d6/level isn't great at higher levels, but it's an awful lot better than 1d6/2 levels.

[Chronos]

Quoth Piggy Knowles:

Not arguing that it isn't underpowered, just that it's something people really like. Almost every game I've played in has had someone playing an archer of one variety or another.
Huh, in my group, almost nobody ever even carries a bow. Which leads to at least one instance per adventure where all of the fighter-types are just standing around gawking because something is flying or otherwise out of charge range. And yet, they continue to not get bows.


Quoth Turion:

Their problem is, they tend to all have the same build. High-con race with dragonborn of bahamut, heart aspect to qualify for metabreath feats, then entangling exhalation, maybe a few metabreaths, extra invocation and that dragon feat to nab warlock invocations, and that's about it
.... Furthermore, DFAs tend to be evil, because fivefold breath of tiamat is much better than discorporating breath of bahamut.
So, most DFAs are dragonborn, and most DFAs are evil... Something's not adding up, there. At the very least, that's one meaningful choice that DFAs have: One or the other of Fivefold or Dragonborn. And it's not really fair to complain that all DFAs choose the same invocations, when all warmages know the same spells, too. The difference is, the DFAs at least have the option of choosing differently.

[Turion]

So, most DFAs are dragonborn, and most DFAs are evil... Something's not adding up, there. At the very least, that's one meaningful choice that DFAs have: One or the other of Fivefold or Dragonborn. And it's not really fair to complain that all DFAs choose the same invocations, when all warmages know the same spells, too. The difference is, the DFAs at least have the option of choosing differently.

Yeah, I derped. :smallredface: (always thought dragonborn was a bit much anyways, but...)
What I was trying to get at, though, is that the most effective build you can get from a DFA is straight through to 20, with mostly the same feats, same breath effects, and same invocations. If you prestige out, you lose out on breath effects. Warmages get a bit more variety with eidetic learning, and get can a lot more benefit out of prestige classes. Off the top of my head, I can think of four or five ways to take a warmage build, to varying degrees of effectiveness. My complaint with DFA is that certain choices are flat-out required if you want to do something besides set things on fire when in combat, which makes them all seem kinda homogenous.
(minor note: I have seen people suggest playing a dragonborn of tiamat to circumvent the alignment snarl. Personally wouldn't want to make it a thing, but I've seen it done.)

[Phelix-Mu]

A DFA is only really dependent on Con (and not very dependent, at that). But, when I make a DFA, it's usually got a more complicated party role than just BFC. With a fair number of skills and a pretty attractive skill list, the DFA can pick up social skills and be the party face (usually in concert with a decent Cha score) or go toward a Knowledge build and get some Knowledge Devotion (Int-focused, have to talk to DM about the exact nature of Knowledge Devotion's bonuses to damage).

Cha-focused DFA is my favorite, as it's a natural route to picking up Leadership/Draconic Cohort. A nice cohort can make battle interesting for the autopilot DFA, and it's not too big a handful for a player that might not have experience running more than one character in combat.

Of course, the Warmage can have these options as well (though it's stat array isn't quite as mutable as that of DFA), but I have very minimal experience with that class. I'd personally prefer a focused specialist evoker or something, but Warmage is a nice Tier 3 choice for a campaign where you want nice versatility but don't want to overwhelm things with a Tier 1-2 monstrosity.

Part of my DFA preference is really the skills thing. I really wish DFA multiclassed better. Might be a reason to come up with some DFA-themed theurgy feats. I wonder how it would work to reconstruct Eldritch Disciple/Theurge to be a DFA+Arcane/Divine caster theurge. Hmm. Might make for an interesting villain, in any case.

[TuggyNE]

Another advantage to DFA is that the breath is supernatural. That means you can use it in a grapple, bypass SR, and bypass immunity. I know which of the two I'd rather have on my team when fighting some golems.

Bypass immunity to magic, I assume you mean, not energy immunity.

[Karnith]

Bypass immunity to magic, I assume you mean, not energy immunity.
Of course, warmages get access to more than a few SR: No spells (Orb of X, Evard's Black Tentacles, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Blast of Flame, Cloudkill, Arc of Lightning, Acid Fog, Fire Seeds, and probably some others), so they have their own ways of bypassing it, as well.