Bard PrCs that advance music & casting?

[sleepyphoenixx]

So i'm trying to fit together a Bard build that has better casting than the standard Bard while still getting the best Bardic Music possible and, as a tertiary goal, keeping the "bard feel".

What i have so far is a Beguiler 5/Prestige Bard 1/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 2/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10,
getting 9th level arcane spells with spontaneus casting of the full Beguiler + Bard list and Bardic Music up to Inspire Courage +3.
(& Inspire Heroics, but who cares about that? :smallbiggrin:)

I would like to get up to Inspire Courage +4 while still keeping 9th level arcane spells and possibly getting rid of the Druid in there.
I just haven't found a PrC that advances both arcane casting and bardic music beside Fochlucan Lyrist.
The two levels of Unseen Seer are filler, the Mindbender can go if necessary but i would like to keep it.

Build:
1 Beguiler 1
2 Beguiler 2
3 Beguiler 3
4 Beguiler 4
5 Beguiler 5
6 Unseen Seer 1
7 Unseen Seer 2
8 Prestige Bard 1
9 Mindbender 1
10 Druid 1
11 Fochlucan Lyrist 1
12 Fochlucan Lyrist 2
13 Fochlucan Lyrist 3
14 Fochlucan Lyrist 4
15 Fochlucan Lyrist 5
16 Fochlucan Lyrist 6
17 Fochlucan Lyrist 7
18 Fochlucan Lyrist 8
19 Fochlucan Lyrist 9
20 Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Feats: Apprentice:Entertainer, Bind Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), Open Chakra (Feet), Mindsight

[Flickerdart]

Your build doesn't work - Beguiler 5 has BAB +2 and not +3.

[Gem]

As Flickerdart said, you don't meet the requirements for Prestige Bard at level 5.

I'm also not really sure how you even get a single level Bard casting in that build, let alone gain access to the Bard's full spell list. Prestige Bard only increases your pre-existing casting, and Fochlucan only lets you advance 1 Arcane + 1 Divine class, not 2 Arcane classes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your build doesn't work - Beguiler 5 has BAB +2 and not +3.

Thanks, i've overlooked that. It's corrected now.
Any advice on the topic?


As Flickerdart said, you don't meet the requirements for Prestige Bard at level 5.

I'm also not really sure how you even get a single level Bard casting in that build, let alone gain access to the Bard's full spell list. Prestige Bard only increases your pre-existing casting, and Fochlucan only lets you advance 1 Arcane + 1 Divine class, not 2 Arcane classes.

Prestige Bard adds the unique bard spells to the list of the class it advances.
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[Gem]

I missed that, apologies. Though if you're doing it that way, note that you're only getting spells that are totally unique to Bard. There's precious few of those. Particularly because it goes on to say that anything other than SRD material is entirely optional.

I'm not even sure what you'd be guaranteed to get. Sympathetic Vibration and... what else?

I'm sure you have a list. In any case, that's by all means not full Bard casting.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I missed that, apologies. Though if you're doing it that way, note that you're only getting spells that are totally unique to Bard. There's precious few of those. Particularly because it goes on to say that anything other than SRD material is entirely optional.

I'm not even sure what you'd be guaranteed to get. Sympathetic Vibration and... what else?

I'm sure you have a list. In any case, that's by all means not full Bard casting.

Most of the non-unique spells are on the Beguiler list. At least those i care about. Spell Compendium adds a few nice Bard only spells and there's a few more scattered through other books.

The games i play in are usually pretty liberal and tend toward mid to high op.
Since stuff like Rainbow Warsnake is acceptable i'm not worried about bard spells being allowed.

In any case, the character is not intended for a specific game. It's more of a thought exercise that might see play someday if i need a backup character.

[Marlowe]

For what you actually asked in your first sentence, you go Bard6 (or 9)/Lyric Thaumaturge 10. However, something in your build makes me suspect that you want something somewhat different.

What do you mean by "Bardic flavour"? Because I'm not seeing any.:smallconfused:

[kulosle]

So i'm going to go ahead and just actually tell you what your looking for, Virtuoso. It's the best one, there are some others. Go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwlbdzciJxg), they have all the bardic music advancing classes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Exactly what i need. Thank you very much.

[Gem]

So i'm going to go ahead and just actually tell you what your looking for, Virtuoso. It's the best one, there are some others. Go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwlbdzciJxg), they have all the bardic music advancing classes.

You appear to have linked to Daniel Tosh. Virtuoso is really nice, though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Looks like i spoke too soon. Virtuoso doesn't fit because of the skill requirement.
Even squeezing in as much as possible still leaves me 2 levels short of IC +4.

Oh well, i'll just have to buy a Vest of Legends i guess.

[Coidzor]

Heartfire Fanner from Dragon 314 gives you 5 levels of spells and bardic music progression and gives you bardic music as a 5th(?) level bard if you enter without having bardic music already. Not sure how it'd mesh with taking a level of prestige bard afterward to get bard spells added to your list though. Also, allows you to choose one of the creatures benefiting from your Inspire Courage and buffing it further.


Oh well, i'll just have to buy a Vest of Legends i guess.

You'd want one anyway, really. Chaos Music might be of interest as well, so that you're effectively 4 levels higher if you can eat a chaotic alignment and radiating a chaotic aura like a cleric, and then the vest of legends on top of that, might just get you into +5 IC territory, though... all of it looks like it's in that awkward territory of DM adjudication with Prestige Bard's different progression.

[kulosle]

oh wow my bad. This one is the actual link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) sorry for the confusion.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I didn't know about that one. Thank you.
I'll interpret it as adding class level +4 to bardic music. I like the additional abilities.

Vest of Legends is... iffy since Prestige Bard advances IC every 5 levels instead of the standard every 6. I can just ask about it when/if i decide to play the character, it's not really integral to the build after all.

With HF and Virtuoso it fits together i think.

1 Beguiler 1
2 Beguiler 2
3 Beguiler 3
4 Beguiler 4
5 Beguiler 5
6 Beguiler 6
7 Prestige Bard 1
8 Heartfire Fanner 1
9 Heartfire Fanner 2
10 Heartfire Fanner 3
11 Heartfire Fanner 4
12 Heartfire Fanner 5
13 Virtuoso 1
14 Virtuoso 2
15 Virtuoso 3
16 Virtuoso 4
17 Virtuoso 5
18 Mindbender 1
19 Unseen Seer 1
20 Unseen Seer 2

Feats: Apprentice:Entertainer, Negotiator, Skill Focus: Perform, Melodic Casting


15 levels for (prestige) bard music, 18 levels for Beguiler spellcasting.
Inspire Courage +4 and 9th level arcane spells.
All thats left is selecting the leftover feats.

Did i miss anything?

Edit: changed class order

[Psyren]

Sublime Chord has music progression, and advances your casting even more.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer) 2/ Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) 2/ Virtuoso (advancing Sublime Chord casting) 8

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sublime Chord only adds to daily uses.
Song of Arcane Power would be nice to have but taking Sublime Chord would lose me 9th level spells from Beguiler and force me to pump both charisma and intelligence.
I also get more spells per day out of Beguiler and know every spell on the list instead of just two 9th level spells known at SC 10.

I also really like the support abilities of Heartfire Fanner.
The feat tax sucks but it's worth it for a dedicated support build imo.
If i just wanted magic i'd make a Wizard.

[Chronos]

Sublime Chord isn't being suggested on top of Beguiler, but instead of it. Any variant on the bard/virtuoso/sublime chord (I've usually seen it starting with bard 9/virtuoso 1) will get you all the bardic music effects and then some, at only slightly delayed Inspire Courage boosts, and only one less use per day; spellcasting far beyond a normal bard (including anything at all from the Sorcerer or Bard list), based entirely on Charisma; and only 2-4 fewer skill points than a standard bard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You need the full 20 levels of bardic music progression to get Inspire Courage +4 on a standard Bard. You can't get that with Sublime Chord.
Prestige Bard gets to IC +4 in 15 levels.
And the standard Bards casting progression sucks. :smalltongue:

Also, being based on Charisma instead of Intelligence would cost me a lot more than 2-4 skill points.
Bard & Sublime Chord also has fewer spells per day than Beguiler and a limited selection instead of spontaneus access to the full list.

I have access to all the spells i need with the Beguiler + unique Bard spells.
This character is not intended to fill the role of sole arcane caster in a party.
It's supposed to be a first-rate supporter for the standard Tank-Skillmonkey-Arcane-Divine party and providing access to the good Bard-only spells
while still feeling like a bard, not a sorcerer who plays music sometimes.
I think Heartfire Fanner accomplishes that perfectly.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and Coidzor for suggesting Heartfire Fanner (and telling me where to find it :smallbiggrin:)

[Coidzor]

You're more than welcome. I'm rather fond of the PrC and bardishness in general, and I always hate seeing just dragon magazine referenced so I try to get the specific magazine number if I can.

Have you seen the Inspire Courage handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0), btw?

You may want to look at Warweavers as well if you haven't considered that possibility.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've seen the Handbook. The build is already pretty feat starved so unless I use Dark Chaos shuffle at higher levels i probably won't be able to fit in Words of Creation.
Song of the Heart is in and together with Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost and Vest of Legends grants IC +8 at level 17.
I could drop Mindsight for Words of Creation but i'd rather keep it.

War Chanter has some nice abilities but doesn't advance normal music progression and costs another two feats i don't have.
Combine Songs would be nice though but Lingering Song should be sufficient to keep up the effects of several songs at the same time.

[Sgt. Cookie]

The best way would be: Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime Chord 1/Lyric Thurmatuge 10

You need to use Extra Music to qualify for Lyric Thurmaturge.


By taking EXACTLY three levels of Prestige Bard, you have the advancements needed to continue Sublime Chord to level nine, and thus 9th level spells.

Lyric Thurmaturge explicitly advances casting "As if you had gained a level in the Bard class", or in our case Prestige Bard, which allows us to advance Sublime Chord.

By strict RAW you don't get the extra spells per day, since you don't have Bard spell slots, but every other aspect of Lyric Thurmaturge you do get.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Again, Lyric Thaumaturge does not advance Bardic Music, it only gives additional uses per day.
And advancing Sublime Chord casting would still leave me with less spells per day and only two 9th level spells known while forcing me to raise two spellcasting stats.

I would like to make the build completely Charisma dependant but the only way to do that would be to use Warmage,
Sorcerer, Sha'ir or standard Bard as the base since Lost Tradition is generally not allowed in my games.

Warmages suck. Trading 6+int SP and access to a full list of spells that fit thematically and synergize with Prestige Bards CL bonus
for 2+int SP and a list of spells that do not mesh with the concept and are generally inferior is just not worth it.

Sorcerer gets all the spell access i'd want but suffers from lack of SP and does not get full list spontaneus casting.

Standard Bard casting progression is atrocious and i'd still be rather limited in spell selection. It doesn't get any benefit over Beguiler & Prestige Bard.

Sha'ir might get full access to the Sorc/Wiz list but the spell retrieval time kills it for me.

If there is a Charisma-based full progression arcane caster class other than those i do not know of it.

[Coidzor]

IIRC, Dread Necromancers, but while they can be prestige bards, it's less of a natural fit for them than beguilers.

[Waker]

IIRC, Dread Necromancers, but while they can be prestige bards, it's less of a natural fit for them than beguilers.
Not a fan of Death Metal?

[Coidzor]

Not a fan of Death Metal?

I think they may have to eat a feat to get into PRC Bard is the main thing. And then eat another feat to get Requiem so that their Inspire Courage works on their minions.

[Waker]

I think they may have to eat a feat to get into PRC Bard is the main thing. And then eat another feat to get Requiem so that their Inspire Courage works on their minions.

Yeah, they either need to dip into a class that has Perform, like Rogue or Human Paragon or take a feat like Apprentice. Don't forget they would also probably take Practice Spellcaster to compensate for the caster level loss on their necromancy spells.
Not the most effective build, but I think it would be kinda fun.