Druss The Legend versus Drizzt the Drow

[Traab]

I have to admit to being curious about this matchup.

Druss The Legend: Druss the Legend is a hero embodying virtue, courage, honour, chivalry and strength of character. Druss is the grandson of Bardan the Slayer, a psychotic madman driven insane by the demon residing within his cursed axe, Snaga the Sender. Druss is described as a physically imposing man, immensely strong but also possessing great speed and dexterity. He has a hard, flat face, black hair and a thick, black beard and pale blue eyes. Despite his initial lack of formal combat training, he becomes known as a fearsome warrior who has never been bested in single combat. He wears the armour and weapons of his grandfather, which includes a black leather jerkin with silver steel pauldrons, black leather gauntlets with reinforced steel plates covering the knuckles and forearms, black leather boots and a black pot helmet with a silver axe motif on the brow flanked by small silver skulls.

Drizzt Do'Urden: Drizzt has had much training not only in Menzoberranzan at the Melee-Magthere and a few weeks at the Sorcere as well as training from his father but from Montolio deBrouchee or "Mooshie" his ranger mentor if it weren't for Mooshie, Drizzt might not have lived long on the surface world .

Drizzt has many assets in his arsenal, such as his two scimitars-

Icingdeath: Taken from the lair of Ingeloakastimizilian, or Icingdeath, as the barbarians of Icewind Dale call it; the mighty white wyrm dragon. It protects its user from heat and flame. It is held in Drizzt's right hand. It is also a weapon which can harm tan'ari and demons alike. Drizzt did not initally name this scimitar, but did finally name it after the powerful dragon that he obtained it from.

Twinkle: His left handed scimitar, was given to him by the wizard Malchor Harpell. It glows a bright blue seemingly based on the users mood.

Bracers of Blinding Strike: Taken from Dantrag Baenre (Baenre weapon master). They were originally used by Dantrag as bracers to increase the wearers arm speed. This allowed the wearer to execute lightening fast attacks. Due to the speed of the attacks the wearer was unable to improvise or stop midd routine. Drizzt took these bracers and placed them on his ankles giving him greater running speed as his arms are fast enough.


The general terms of the contest are as follows. Both have the gear listed and no more. That means no panther summoning for drizzt. This is a straight up duel between army champions on an open plain. No assassinations, no confusing melee of a general battle where they meet and no backup. For the purpose of fairness, Druss and Drizzt are both at their physical peaks in term of age and conditioning. Snaga the Sender is not possessed. This is a fight with no breaks, no running off and hiding, its a thunderdome style, two men enter one man leaves.

Me personally? I vote for Druss. At best a mutual kill. Drizzt is ludicrously fast and skilled, this is true. Druss however is also deceptively fast, and as the description says, he has never lost in single combat. For those who dont know, Druss does die in one of his stories, however, the way he dies just reinforces how unstoppable he is . He had fought the champion of an invading army and taken a poisoned sword wound across his shoulders and back. Dying of gangrene a day or so later, the castle came under attack again. He forced himself to his feet, took up his axe, and staggered to the gate which was breaking down. He was surrounded by 10 enemy soldiers. He killed 7 of them before his wounds caught up with him. Oh yeah, he was also well into his SIXTIES at the time.

You might think drizzt has more experience in powerful combat than druss since he has fought monsters, wizards, demons and such? Nope, Druss has fought all of that. Including a demonic spirit inside his axe that sought to take over his mind and turn him into another psychotic butcher. About the only thing drizzt HAS fought druss hasnt is a damn dragon. Druss attained over 40 years of experience fighting in war after war after war. He has been the champion of many armies, at times fighting for or against pretty much every nation in his world. He is respected and feared by everyone with enough intelligence to comprehend who and what he is. He isnt just an axe fighter either. He is a bare knuckle fighting champion as well. Im talking good old fashioned, neck punching, groin stomping, eye gouging, anything goes, hand to hand combat. Little advice? Dont take away the axe, you will just die slower and in more pain that way as he beats you to death.

[Anteros]

Logically it's Drizzt. Druss has no counter to his speed. If I had to bet though, I would bet on Druss anyway.

Skilgannon vs Drizzt would be more interesting. To me at least.

[Forum Explorer]

I think Drizzt would win. He's got a lot more training under his belt (being an elf) and in just faster in general. Plus a well placed dark spell could mess Druss up.

[Traab]

Logically it's Drizzt. Druss has no counter to his speed. If I had to bet though, I would bet on Druss anyway.

Skilgannon vs Drizzt would be more interesting. To me at least.

True, drizzt does have the raw speed advantage, however, druss aint exactly slow himself, and to get in range with his scimitar, drizzt will have to get in range of druss's axe. One of his other advantages is a huge innate ability to form tactics on the go, and an awareness of whats going on around him at all times which makes it incredibly tough to catch him off guard in a fight. Its entirely possible dross would accept a slash from one of drizzts scimitars just to have the opening to cleave him from crown to crotch with that monstrous axe of his.

That said, I agree, a drizzt/skilgannon fight would be very interesting as well. The main reason I picked druss is because he is THE legend in that universe. A section of the book where they talk about his death said it well.


Ogasi: "He was special. Even when he fell at the last, I thought he would rise. Even now some of the men cast fearful glances at his pyre, expecting to see him stand again."

Ulric: "How could he have stood against us? His face was blue from gangrene, his heart should have stopped long since. And the pain. . . "

Ogasi: "While men compete in war, there will be warriors. While there are warriors, there will be princes among warriors. Among the princes will be kings, and among the kings, an emperor. You said it yourself my lord, men such as him come perhaps once in twenty lifetimes."

Druss is the guy you want fighting along side you. Bar none, out of every hero and big name in the entire series, if you could pick just one of them to stand by your side in a fight to save the world, or even to protect your friend, you would pick Druss, because he flat out doesnt lose. Even dead he still cast a shadow of power and fear over the men who had managed to kill him. At his own damn funeral people kept expecting him to rise up once more and continue fighting. And if you read the rest of the story, you understand, in a way, they were RIGHT to fear that happening. If you look up the word indomitable in the dictionary, you will see his face as the only definition.

[Traab]

Feh, Waylander. He doesnt need no fancy magic items to make anyone he wants to kill dead. He has slaughtered demon lords for daring to move against him. He also has some level of healing factor, considering in his last book he was in his 80s I believe, and still barely out of his fighting prime.

[comicshorse]

True, drizzt does have the raw speed advantage, however, druss aint exactly slow himself, and to get in range with his scimitar, drizzt will have to get in range of druss's axe. One of his other advantages is a huge innate ability to form tactics on the go, and an awareness of whats going on around him at all times which makes it incredibly tough to catch him off guard in a fight. Its entirely possible dross would accept a slash from one of drizzts scimitars just to have the opening to cleave him from crown to crotch with that monstrous axe of his.


Thats what I was thinking would be Druss's best shot given Drizzt's speed. Let him get in a shot with the scimitar in order to get one in with Snaga (maybe even trap the blade in his own body). One blow from that axe is all it would take.
Given Drizzt's own skill and strength whether that would be a win or a draw is questionable though



Whilst we're comparing universes, how's about Waylander vs Artemis Entreri?

Waylander if only because he's smart enough to make friends and contacts whereas Artemis seems determined to make the whole world his enemy

[Shyftir]

I love both of the authors involved here, but one is writing for DnD especially Forgotten Realms. FR is just such a powerhouse setting and dominated by casters. To make a melee character stand out and be a threat you have to literally make him OP. I think Druss is a better and stronger character. (I like Drizz't don't get me wrong.) But Drizz't is a more powerful character from a more powerful universe. In Gemmel's world, warriors are legends and Druss is the biggest one. In FR casters are legends, but Drizz't manages to be one anyway.

That said if I patterned my DnD character on Druss I'd do way more damage than you would with your Drizz't inspired one.

[Traab]

I love both of the authors involved here, but one is writing for DnD especially Forgotten Realms. FR is just such a powerhouse setting and dominated by casters. To make a melee character stand out and be a threat you have to literally make him OP. I think Druss is a better and stronger character. (I like Drizz't don't get me wrong.) But Drizz't is a more powerful character from a more powerful universe. In Gemmel's world, warriors are legends and Druss is the biggest one. In FR casters are legends, but Drizz't manages to be one anyway.

That said if I patterned my DnD character on Druss I'd do way more damage than you would with your Drizz't inspired one.

You see, this is a valid point. As you said, the fr characters seem to have the advantage due to basically, them being far better parsed and statted out. Meanwhile guys like druss have to settle for, "They are strong and fast." Stronger than what? Faster than what? The best we can do is side by side achievement comparison. For example, drizzt has gone up against various nasty high end demons. Druss had to fight the powerful demon that possessed his axe. Drizzt has fought numerous creatures of various types, including things like actual giants and dragons. Druss on the other hand has fought 9 foot tall werebeast type creatures melded together by dark magic. Both have fought spell casters, though admittedly drizzt has fought more.

Both have a iron set of morals and a personal code. But I think druss has the edge. Last I checked, Drizzt hasnt had to maintain his self control while his own weapons try to mind control him. But one of the things that I think swings this overall contest even more in the favor of druss is that basic description. Dude has never lost a fight. It took 10 people attacking him while he was dying of a gangrenous wound across his back and shoulders while he was something like 64 years old for him to finally die. If he DID have D&D stats, he would have to be an epic level warrior class of some sort. If you meet him in melee combat, YOU. WILL. DIE.

[Forum Explorer]

You see, this is a valid point. As you said, the fr characters seem to have the advantage due to basically, them being far better parsed and statted out. Meanwhile guys like druss have to settle for, "They are strong and fast." Stronger than what? Faster than what? The best we can do is side by side achievement comparison. For example, drizzt has gone up against various nasty high end demons. Druss had to fight the powerful demon that possessed his axe. Drizzt has fought numerous creatures of various types, including things like actual giants and dragons. Druss on the other hand has fought 9 foot tall werebeast type creatures melded together by dark magic. Both have fought spell casters, though admittedly drizzt has fought more.

Both have a iron set of morals and a personal code. But I think druss has the edge. Last I checked, Drizzt hasnt had to maintain his self control while his own weapons try to mind control him. But one of the things that I think swings this overall contest even more in the favor of druss is that basic description. Dude has never lost a fight. It took 10 people attacking him while he was dying of a gangrenous wound across his back and shoulders while he was something like 64 years old for him to finally die. If he DID have D&D stats, he would have to be an epic level warrior class of some sort. If you meet him in melee combat, YOU. WILL. DIE.

Actually I believe Drizzt had to dominate the weapon Cutter when he weilded it and managed to defeat the Crystal Shard's mental influence as well.

[Anteros]

Feh, Waylander. He doesnt need no fancy magic items to make anyone he wants to kill dead. He has slaughtered demon lords for daring to move against him. He also has some level of healing factor, considering in his last book he was in his 80s I believe, and still barely out of his fighting prime.

Entreri would absolutely slaughter Waylander in an urban setting or a melee. Out on the open plains and at range is the only way Waylander would win.

As for Druss vs Drizzt...we do know he's fast enough to cut an arrow from the air at something ridiculous like 10 paces with an enormous axe...so he's probably faster than strictly humanly possible as well.

I honestly would predict Drizzt trying one of the many ridiculously impractical combat maneuvers that he favors and getting himself cut down fairly easily by Druss. If he just used his pure speed to get behind Druss and strike he would probably win...but knowing Drizzt's personality he's far more likely to try twirling at him instead and getting himself cut in half.

You know, we could probably do quite a few VS battles between the similar characters of these 2 series...my predicted victors in bold.

Enteri vs Waylander
Druss vs Bruenor
Regnak vs Wulfgar
Skilgannon vs Drizzt

[Kitten Champion]

Druss is the embodiment of Man's strength in the face of hopeless adversity, Drizzt is an epic-level action hero. Sadly, I think Drizzt would win because he's simply in a more embellished milieu where fighting things for the sake of fighting things is pretty much the raison d'etre.

I don't know, this comparison to Salvatore kind of bothers me. The LOTR fellowship versus Drizzt's party had the same problem, with LOTR being about the absolution of man by throwing the Apple away and redeeming Lucifer. It doesn't really care whether Aragorn or Gandalf could take the Ring Wraiths out if they minmaxed the right stats - if that means anything.

*Sigh* I shouldn't have read the Neverwinter books, it's soured my disposition.

[Traab]

Druss is the embodiment of Man's strength in the face of hopeless adversity, Drizzt is an epic-level action hero. Sadly, I think Drizzt would win because he's simply in a more embellished milieu where fighting things for the sake of fighting things is pretty much the raison d'etre.

I don't know, this comparison to Salvatore kind of bothers me. The LOTR fellowship versus Drizzt's party had the same problem, with LOTR being about the absolution of man by throwing the Apple away and redeeming Lucifer. It doesn't really care whether Aragorn or Gandalf could take the Ring Wraiths out if they minmaxed the right stats - if that means anything.

*Sigh* I shouldn't have read the Neverwinter books, it's soured my disposition.

You are right about Druss being the embodiment of mens strength. He is literally the ultimate warrior. Thats why I say at best drizzt manages a mutual kill, assuming he manages to do enough damage before being split in half. Plus, keep in mind, "fighting for the sake of fighting" is pretty much Druss. Other than his wife, all he likes to do is fight. And as much as he hates that fact, he likes fighting more. He will fight for whoever he thinks is less odious but he will always fight. And win. That was his entire lifestory. He spent 40+ years of his life fighting in one war or another. Fighting against men, against animals, against monsters.

And Anteros, no way in hell. Waylander is virtually impossible to surprise in an ambush, he has fought things so far beyond human levels of skill and power it beggars the imagination, and he won. When he decides you are dead, you are dead. Enteri on the other hand has lost. Yeah I know, part of the downside of being the antagonist. But its still there. Waylander doesnt fail to kill who he wants to kill. As for your other matchups, I think Druss versus Wulfgar would be more badass than versus breunor, but I like the other matchups.

[hamishspence]

King Obould was basically a heavily armoured orc with a two-handed sword- and Drizzt ended up stalemated against him. Though he reputedly did have a bit of divine power boosting him.

I could see him having trouble getting through Druss's defences, even if he's fast enough to avoid Druss's attacks.

Waylander didn't actually fight Anharat the Demon Lord- Anharat simply refused to obey the order to kill him, since his heart was no longer beating, which made him technically dead.

[Traab]

King Obould was basically a heavily armoured orc with a two-handed sword- and Drizzt ended up stalemated against him. Though he reputedly did have a bit of divine power boosting him.

I could see him having trouble getting through Druss's defences, even if he's fast enough to avoid Druss's attacks.

Waylander didn't actually fight Anharat the Demon Lord- Anharat simply refused to obey the order to kill him, since his heart was no longer beating, which made him technically dead.

Yeah good catch on anhart, I actually remembered that part, what i forgot was that waylander didnt kill that twisted scorpion bad guy thing either, anhart did that for screwing up the summoning. Well, "kill" is a strong word, he kinda dragged him off for centuries of torture because the guy had mastered regeneration to a rather unfortunate level.

[hamishspence]

It's been a while since I've read them- what's the most powerful thing Waylander's actually fought and beaten?

[Traab]

It's been a while since I've read them- what's the most powerful thing Waylander's actually fought and beaten?

The various demonic creatures from the mist in that book, numerous Meldings, which are basically were-creatures of multiple types. You know, 9 foot tall humanoid wolf monsters, etc etc etc. I believe he has also fought various spell casters from time to time, but I cant be sure.

[Kyberwulf]

One thing I would like to point out, in Drizzt's favor. He does have that whole "hunter" persona he goes into from time to time. When he is in that state, isn't he faster and stronger? I don't remember if he can go into that at will though.

[CowardlyPaladin]

What are these Druss the Legend books?

[Barmoz]

I don't think Druss is the embodiment of human combat capability. He was an accomplished warrior certainly, but his legend was created while wielding one of the few magic items in the entire world, and his biggest strength was his force of will, not his skill at arms.

Drizzt wins, and it kills me to say that because I hate Drizzt and I hate Salvatore, I think his books are trash, his characters are awful, and he's actually prevented people from reading quality literature because they get sucked into his typhoon of crap due to love of a setting. I don't think that the Gemmel books are the pinnacle either, but the original Legend book was powerful in a way that nothing Salvatore has ever done can touch.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't think Druss is the embodiment of human combat capability. He was an accomplished warrior certainly, but his legend was created while wielding one of the few magic items in the entire world, and his biggest strength was his force of will, not his skill at arms.

Drizzt wins, and it kills me to say that because I hate Drizzt and I hate Salvatore, I think his books are trash, his characters are awful, and he's actually prevented people from reading quality literature because they get sucked into his typhoon of crap due to love of a setting. I don't think that the Gemmel books are the pinnacle either, but the original Legend book was powerful in a way that nothing Salvatore has ever done can touch.

Thank you, that's the wording I couldn't seem to find. Druss isn't about his supremacy as a fighter but his inexhaustible spirit, he's a symbol of something the author and we are all looking for in ourselves and never quite know if it's attainable. Drizzt kills monsters and stuff for increasingly insignificant, inane, or unremarkable reasons but in elaborate and exciting style - that's all - which leads to increasingly hyperbolic feats over the course of two dozen novels. The point of Salvatore's books is to tell an exciting high-flying action-adventure story in a fantasy setting, not to exemplify our inner strength.

If Druss was written like Drizzt I wouldn't have cared about him, but as a result he's more flawed.

[hamishspence]

Druss vs Drizzt isn't really an even matchup in weaponry or fighting style- maybe Druss vs Wulfgar might make more sense (both are huge men who wield two-handed weapons).

A more suitable adversary for Drizzt might be Skilgannon- or the Decado clone- both of which wield a pair of powerful magic swords (Decado's swords are more powerful, and he is also a slightly more skilled fighter than Skilgannon).

[Traab]

I don't think Druss is the embodiment of human combat capability. He was an accomplished warrior certainly, but his legend was created while wielding one of the few magic items in the entire world, and his biggest strength was his force of will, not his skill at arms.

Drizzt wins, and it kills me to say that because I hate Drizzt and I hate Salvatore, I think his books are trash, his characters are awful, and he's actually prevented people from reading quality literature because they get sucked into his typhoon of crap due to love of a setting. I don't think that the Gemmel books are the pinnacle either, but the original Legend book was powerful in a way that nothing Salvatore has ever done can touch.


The only thing magical about his axe was that it twisted everyone stupid enough to wield it into a bloodthirsty monster but Druss. It didnt have any awesome powers of awesomeness. The only time it did anything helpful in fight was once while it was still possessed, he bounced a fireball back at the wizard who attacked him. Hell, about a quarter through his lifetime of unending battle, he exorcised the demon inside it, further negating any super special magic item bonus you might think he got from it. He wasnt just an accomplished warrior, he was the perfect storm of genetics and inner strength. He was basically designed to be the perfect wielder of a weapon like that, incredibly strong, surprisingly fast, capable of fighting with the frenzy of a berserker, but the cool mental control and agility of a general. He had the kind of expanded awareness around him that not only protected him from being taken by surprise in battle, but it let him be able to read the situation between entire armies while he was fighting on the front line.

Just as an example, in one battle, an enemy soldier literally sacrificed himself by throwing himself onto druss' axe to knock it from his hands. Any normal person would have turned around and grabbed his axe, but druss was able to subconsciously see it would leave a gap in the lines, so instead he delivered a right cross to the next guy attacking him, picked him up and hurled him back into his own troops, blocking their movements long enough to reclaim his weapon safely.


Thats the kind of mastery of tactics and strategy he has. Ask him to plan out a battle and he is somewhat out of his depth, though he can still do it well. Put him in the middle of a fight with nothing but an instant to decide and he makes the right one every time. One of the most accurate descriptions of what it takes to kill druss was, "You cant go into battle with him expecting to live. No, you have to go against him KNOWING you will die in the process." Im paraphrasing there but thats the general gist of it. Basically, you cant kill him without dying yourself.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure, but I think the axe retained the traits "never needs sharpening" and/or "never rusts"- with it still being in use over a thousand years later.

[Traab]

I'm not sure, but I think the axe retained the traits "never needs sharpening" and/or "never rusts"- with it still being in use over a thousand years later.

That might have been because it was made of silver steel or whatever odd term they came up with. But even if that was the case, its still not like its some magic axe that creates hurricanes when its swung or anything else. At best its "magical powers" are nothing but a downtime reducer as he doesnt have to break out the whetstone every battle.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if there are any monsters in the Drenai setting that are immune to nonmagical weaponry- maybe some demons.

"The Great Bear" in the First Chronicles of Druss the Legend, I think, may have been an example.

Weapons in the Drizzt setting tend to be a little more powerful- Icingdeath, for example, providing resistance to fire and doing extra damage to fiery creatures- or Entreri's dagger healing its wielder by draining its target's life-force, or Aegis-fang teleporting back to its wielder after being thrown.

Next to those, it's harder to tell if Snaga, or the Swords of Night & Day, provide a noticable bonus.

[Traab]

I'm not sure if there are any monsters in the Drenai setting that are immune to nonmagical weaponry- maybe some demons.

"The Great Bear" in the First Chronicles of Druss the Legend, I think, may have been an example.

Weapons in the Drizzt setting tend to be a little more powerful- Icingdeath, for example, providing resistance to fire and doing extra damage to fiery creatures- or Entreri's dagger healing its wielder by draining its target's life-force, or Aegis-fang teleporting back to its wielder after being thrown.

Next to those, it's harder to tell if Snaga, or the Swords of Night & Day, provide a noticable bonus.

God its been so long, but I THINK the swords of night and day granted a bonus in speed to their wielders, but like pretty much every other "magic" weapon, they were demon possessed and highly corruptible to use. I may have them confused with another pair of weapons though, I think some old crone made a knockoff pair.

[Cracklord]

The weapons and gear that Drizzt carries around is far superior. He lives in a far more poorly realized world were such wonders are practically commonplace, while in Drenai land magic is something rare and wonderful, not counting the psychic powers of the Source Priests.

That said, read and compare the combat descriptions rather then argue what the gadgets do. The result is pretty clear, Druss lives in a far more realistic world, with a far better idea of what people are and are not physically capable of. And so, considering what he pulls off, Druss would beat him like a dog.

[hamishspence]

God its been so long, but I THINK the swords of night and day granted a bonus in speed to their wielders, but like pretty much every other "magic" weapon, they were demon possessed and highly corruptible to use. I may have them confused with another pair of weapons though, I think some old crone made a knockoff pair.

They were the knockoff pair. The originals were the Swords of Blood and Fire, which the Decado clone wields.

The swords wielded by the Riajnee in Hero in the Shadows, are supposed to be magical- made for demon-fighting, and destroyed if an unworthy wielder gets hold of one. The character mentions a previous incident where one such sword was destroyed.

[Traab]

They were the knockoff pair. The originals were the Swords of Blood and Fire, which the Decado clone wields.

The swords wielded by the Riajnee in Hero in the Shadows, are supposed to be magical- made for demon-fighting, and destroyed if an unworthy wielder gets hold of one. The character mentions a previous incident where one such sword was destroyed.

Yeah but if I recall, waylander was able to kill the mist creatures with his crossbow which had no mystical components. The magic swords had a bonus against them in D&D terms, and also helped push back the mist when they touched enough other weapons to arm everyone. But they werent the ONLY thing that could kill them.

[hamishspence]

The magic swords had a bonus against them in D&D terms, and also helped push back the mist when they touched enough other weapons to arm everyone. But they werent the ONLY thing that could kill them.In D&D terms, they probably had fairly low Damage Reduction.

[SanguisAevum]

The issue here is trying to compare the two warriors according to their relative attributes within the confines of their two very different settings.

One is a semi-realistic, low-fantasy setting, and the other is Forgotton Realms!

Surely for objective comparison, we should compare them both within the context of one setting.


If we Do this in the context of forgotton realms... Drizzt is... wel Drizzt as we know him. Druss however, in the context of forgotton realms is, in my opinion, at the very least... a human paragon epic level barbarian.

Alternativly... if we take Drizzt and put him into the context of the Drenai books... what does he become? A deadly duel wielding foe? Comparable to Waylander or Tenhaka Khan maybe? and... Druss... well he is Druss "The Legend" he is literally THE most legendary warrior the Dreanai setting has ever seen. The first book was ABOUT that very legend.


Druss wins either way... IMO.

[Chen]

If we Do this in the context of forgotton realms... Drizzt is... wel Drizzt as we know him. Druss however, in the context of forgotton realms is, in my opinion, at the very least... a human paragon epic level barbarian.


Epic? I don't think so. None of his feats would even require high teens in level's I'd think unless I'm missing something.

[Emmerask]

Druss is one of my favorite fantasy characters ever he is just awesome...
Drizzt on the other hand is rather mediocre and even in his "own" books there are a ton of characters I like more.

So in my heart Druss will always win this fight making some funny remark after cleaving him in two drow pieces.
But Faerun is just a stupidly powerful setting so Drizzt might actually win which would be sad ^^

[Dienekes]

Epic? I don't think so. None of his feats would even require high teens in level's I'd think unless I'm missing something.

I think what Sanguis is trying to say is that you have to compare the characters based on the setting and scale them to size. For Druss he is the legend by which all other legends are judged so if his setting was powered up to scale to fit Forgotten Realms he would be an epic level character. While Drizz't if powered back to fit into a semi-realistic setting like the Drenai series then he would just be some renown swordsman.

Which to me is a rather pointless way to look at it, as it requires fiating around the worlds to try and make a balance where there obviously isn't thus removing the entire point of the verses to begin with, to determine who is the better.

Now for my 2 cents, and correct me if I'm wrong here, the Drizz't books don't really follow DnD rules. No one waits 6 seconds to attack, they don't move in straight lines, they can't take an ax to the forehead and keep on trucking as fresh as they were at the start of combat. Despite using DnD as a setting, the characters are still vaguely realistic in that fatal is still fatal.

If that were the case, I would give the advantage to Druss. To get within Snaga's reach means death. I doubt Drizz't can make the same boast, since he, you know, has recurring villains.

Mind you, I only read one early Drizz't book years ago. If later on he is able to take an ax to the face by all means tell me and that would change my answer to Drizz't.

[Emmerask]

you know you are absolutely correct, drizzt does not really play within 3.5 rules.

So yes Druss would win :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Yeah, I have been ignoring D&D stats and rules and trying to flat out compare their abilities. Drizzt is faster, druss is bigger and stronger, that sort of thing. If I had to though, I would sort of describe this as a fight between a rogue or other melee dps type, and a dps tank class. Drizzt can dish out a massive amount of hurt, but cant take as much, druss can dish out major pain, and he can also soak it up. Its a big part of him, he is the meat shield as well as the reaping thresher.

Drizzt has to land a number of good shots to take down druss, druss only really needs to connect once. While drizzt has to dodge alot, considering trying to BLOCK that axe is a move worthy of its own entry in the darwin awards, druss can stand there and absorb a hit if it means he can connect with one of his own and his will be a lot nastier. Drizzt has to focus on his offense and defense, splitting his energy. Druss is virtually pure offense. Pretty much all his energy is focused on killing drizzt. I think as he got older druss did a bit more defensive work, but in his prime it was basically, take one step forward, kill everything in range, take another step forward, repeat till you run out of people to kill.

[Chen]

Yeah, I have been ignoring D&D stats and rules and trying to flat out compare their abilities. Drizzt is faster, druss is bigger and stronger, that sort of thing. If I had to though, I would sort of describe this as a fight between a rogue or other melee dps type, and a dps tank class. Drizzt can dish out a massive amount of hurt, but cant take as much, druss can dish out major pain, and he can also soak it up. Its a big part of him, he is the meat shield as well as the reaping thresher.

Drizzt has to land a number of good shots to take down druss, druss only really needs to connect once. While drizzt has to dodge alot, considering trying to BLOCK that axe is a move worthy of its own entry in the darwin awards, druss can stand there and absorb a hit if it means he can connect with one of his own and his will be a lot nastier. Drizzt has to focus on his offense and defense, splitting his energy. Druss is virtually pure offense. Pretty much all his energy is focused on killing drizzt. I think as he got older druss did a bit more defensive work, but in his prime it was basically, take one step forward, kill everything in range, take another step forward, repeat till you run out of people to kill.

In any real life fight any actual blow (i.e., not deflected by armor) will almost certainly put the combatent out of the fight. He has a leather chest piece which is probably fairly effective against a scimitar (though the scimitar is magic so I don't know how that would work). Thing is Drizzt would need to catch his leg or arm or something that isn't armored.

Really I think it depends on how fast those bracers (anklets?) make him. If he's fast enough to consistently get behind Druss and/or dodge attacks that's it. He'll eventually get an opening and hamstring Druss or hit the unarmored portion of his arm and that'll effectively be the end (if your tricep or hamstring is completely severed I don't care how strong you are you're going to be pretty crippled).

[Traab]

In any real life fight any actual blow (i.e., not deflected by armor) will almost certainly put the combatent out of the fight. He has a leather chest piece which is probably fairly effective against a scimitar (though the scimitar is magic so I don't know how that would work). Thing is Drizzt would need to catch his leg or arm or something that isn't armored.

Really I think it depends on how fast those bracers (anklets?) make him. If he's fast enough to consistently get behind Druss and/or dodge attacks that's it. He'll eventually get an opening and hamstring Druss or hit the unarmored portion of his arm and that'll effectively be the end (if your tricep or hamstring is completely severed I don't care how strong you are you're going to be pretty crippled).


This is true, if drizzt can get in a strategic hit he can slow down or outright cripple druss, leaving him open for the kill. The problem is, if druss hits drizzt with his axe, pretty much anywhere, that part of his body will be separated from the rest. Its a lot less stress for druss as he just has to hit drizzt anywhere to basically win. So can anyone more familiar with those bracers chime in with a description of how fast drizzt is with them on his legs? Are we talking barely a blur of speed? Faster? Slower?

[Forum Explorer]

This is true, if drizzt can get in a strategic hit he can slow down or outright cripple druss, leaving him open for the kill. The problem is, if druss hits drizzt with his axe, pretty much anywhere, that part of his body will be separated from the rest. Its a lot less stress for druss as he just has to hit drizzt anywhere to basically win. So can anyone more familiar with those bracers chime in with a description of how fast drizzt is with them on his legs? Are we talking barely a blur of speed? Faster? Slower?

Pretty close to a blur. Drizzit has never had much trouble getting behind opponents and going for the legs. I mean against the fight against the Orc King (Olaf?) he's able to dodge all (okay nearly all) of the blows which have been hastened. The Orc King at that time was stronger then a giant and wearing impervious armor. It's basically this fight but Drizzit can actually cut Druss.

[Kyberwulf]

Now, coming from not actually reading any of the Druss books. You all are coming off as HUGE fan boys of Druss, and just hate of Drizzt. I am not a Drizzt fan or think he is the greatest. However I don't just crap on other peoples works.
This Druss, from the way you guys make him sound. He can't get hurt, he can hurl mountains, and he can swing his axe at supersonic speeds. His will power can burn holes into metal.
And the whole thing about Druss's world being based in "The real world" I am sure that isn't really true either. Otherwise this Druss character wouldn't be able to do half the things you guys make him out to be.

[Cuaqchi]

Actually Druss is surprisingly close to realistic and the key that is being missed is the context of the argument. He is actually wounded a lot in the stories but due to his size (6'6"-7') and bulk along with the fact that he wears a light and durable suit of armour (fairly similar to a Greek Hoplite's) the wounds are usually superficial. He accepts this and takes advantage of such wounds though to force his opponents to over reach and provide an opening for an artifact level Great Axe to cleave through them. It's also why poison eventually did him in, you only need cause superficial damage for a poisoned weapon to kill (eventually) and his fighting style allows such strike.

Drizzt on the other hand is closer in skill and ability to Gemmell's character Skilgannon the Damned who even in one of the stories held his own but couldn't actually best Druss. That Skilgannon also used two artifact level swords as a duel wielder also shows that the magic weapon comparison isn't really required as much as people are trying to say. In the end I would say Druss wins; but, the match - much like the one against Skilgannon - actually takes effort on Druss' part rather than the usual murder he can accomplish against mooks.

[Traab]

Now, coming from not actually reading any of the Druss books. You all are coming off as HUGE fan boys of Druss, and just hate of Drizzt. I am not a Drizzt fan or think he is the greatest. However I don't just crap on other peoples works.
This Druss, from the way you guys make him sound. He can't get hurt, he can hurl mountains, and he can swing his axe at supersonic speeds. His will power can burn holes into metal.
And the whole thing about Druss's world being based in "The real world" I am sure that isn't really true either. Otherwise this Druss character wouldn't be able to do half the things you guys make him out to be.

Nah, he is far from invulnerable. In fact, he has gotten stabbed, clubbed, shot by arrows, clawed by monsters, poisoned, imprisoned for the better part of a year, etc etc etc. I mean sure, him swinging that axe is like the scene from lotr where we watch sauron fight. :smallbiggrin: But other than that.... Heh, seriously though, the whole point is that he actually is quite strong. Not superhuman, but he is a very big, very muscular man, who has been swinging a very large axe around for the better part of 45 years. So he is definitely peak human levels, perhaps a bit more considering he is the protagonist. :p And he is deceptively quick. Normally, you would expect a man swinging an axe to leave some rather sizeable holes in his defense if he misses, but he can bring that axe right back into a ready position very quickly. (part of that really strong and experienced thing)

The question is, would drizzt be fast ENOUGH to be able to get in, kill druss, and get out, before that axe removes a body part he would prefer to keep? Get in? Oh yeah, I think he is fast enough, Kill druss? Possibly, druss takes a lot of killing to make it stick. Hell, he took a lance through the lung and still killed i think two more people before finally succumbing. Get back out again? Ah, thats where it gets a bit less likely. And thats why i think the most likely outcome is mutual kill, second most likely is druss wins, third most likely drizzt wins.

[Kyberwulf]

My point is, your making this seem like a Hulk Vs. Black Widow Fight.

I wish I could offer something kind of argument for one or the other, but I can't. I don't have the info on Druss.

However, I have read some of the Drizzt stuff. He seems like he fights a lot of people that are stronger and can take more damage then him, on a regular basis. He usually wins out because he was better trained and has more intelligence then whom he is facing.

[Cuaqchi]

In that regard more Thor vs. Cap. Cap can win but likely wouldn't. Very few people are actively downplaying Drizzt - and those that are are doing so in the context of Fearun's wizard spam - but Druss is the pinnacle in his universe.

[Kyberwulf]

Then how can you say Druss is set in a more real world. If you liken him to a God.

[Cuaqchi]

Who else would you take as a skilled bruiser to replicate your attempted comparison? Maybe Thing but Thor is actually more vulnerable to attacks even if he is a god simply because it's comic books and he had bare flesh. Also Cap isn't exactly realistic either...

[Traab]

Then how can you say Druss is set in a more real world. If you liken him to a God.

Who is likening him to a god? He is the ultimate HUMAN warrior, thats it. Maybe a bit beyond considering this is fiction, but hardly godlike.

[Cuaqchi]

He misunderstood my correction of a comic book comparison and extended it to the absurd.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't really care what Druss is. You guys just come off as some pretty hardcore fanboys. You dismiss anything Drizzt has done. I also postulate that Drizzt is the Drow Ultimate Warrior.

Side question, your claim that Druss is the Ultimate human warrior. I have to ask who would win. Druss or Conan.

[Traab]

I don't really care what Druss is. You guys just come off as some pretty hardcore fanboys. You dismiss anything Drizzt has done. I also postulate that Drizzt is the Drow Ultimate Warrior.

Side question, your claim that Druss is the Ultimate human warrior. I have to ask who would win. Druss or Conan.

Yeah, not sure where you get it as dismissing when we dare to debate. Clearly most of us are druss supporters, but its not as if we are ignoring his abilities, or just saying they arent all that. Quite to the contrary, drizzt is very dangerous and quite capable of killing druss, its just a question of if he can pull off a lethal hit without receiving one of his own in return. That was why I asked about the level fo written and demonstrated speed drizzt has shown so we can try to figure out if it would be enough to pull off a win or not.

*EDIT* I would agree that drizzt is the ultimate drow warrior, but that doesnt really answer the question of who would win, now does it? Some classes just dont match up well. I could be the worlds greatest archer, and yet I would likely get taken out by an average wizard. Its a question of styles and abilities. Druss is a high damage dealing, high damage TAKING fighter. He is a solid wall that enemies break upon. Drizzt is an agile fighter. He is an absolute BLENDER of physical damage, but he isnt as hardy as druss, so he relies on not being hit to win. So that makes it an interesting matchup, one is hard to hit, the other is hard to kill.

[Cikomyr]

Drizzt has face superhumanly strong and skill enemies and stood toe-to-toe with them. Obould Many-Arrow was basically an Avatar of Gruumsh who wielded his greatsword as fast as Drizzt did his scimitar. The two were evenly matched, as the divine power allowed Obould to withstand and keep fighting through the thousand cuts Drizzt to him, while Obould wouldn't be able to land a real hit. The stalemate ended due to outside circumstances.


But pure fighting prowesses aren't the only thing part of Drizzt's arsenal. He can summon darknesses and fight extremely silently, how did Druss fought blindly? He's the competent archer as well, and we have established Drizzt can run faster than Druss.


Drizzt would probably probe Druss's fighting style and skill, and determine if it's worth going at him directly. He wouldn't go for what some of you called "fancy combat maneuver" if he doesn't see a point to it, and certainly won't bet his life on such maneuver unless he is certain it will end the fight.

[Emmerask]

Probing Druss fighting style leads to death by being split into two parts :smallbiggrin:

Druss has one fighting style as one before has already explained take a step forward, kill everything in reach, take a step forward... :smallwink:

[Cuaqchi]

Also, much like the hero's of classical Greece Druss has had his run through the underworld and dealt with enemies which cannot be perceived - not just invisible but seemingly nonexistent. He didn't kill them; but, instead survived long enough to complete what was actually required of his quest.

[Cikomyr]

Probing Druss fighting style leads to death by being split into two parts :smallbiggrin:

Druss has one fighting style as one before has already explained take a step forward, kill everything in reach, take a step forward... :smallwink:

Gee, well I guess Drizz't never faced someone with that style.

Oh. Wait.

[Cikomyr]

Also, much like the hero's of classical Greece Druss has had his run through the underworld and dealt with enemies which cannot be perceived - not just invisible but seemingly nonexistent. He didn't kill them; but, instead survived long enough to complete what was actually required of his quest.

Please describe "dealt"?

[Emmerask]

Best would be to read The Drenai Saga by david gemmell,
not only are these really good books they also have 3 of the best protagonists in any fantasy story ever :smallwink:
ie
Waylander the Slayer
Druss the Deathwalker
Skilgannon the Damned

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Cuaqchi]

Survive the mental and emotional stresses which damned souls are prone to cause. The big thing with this debate is that Druss is very much a modern take on the heros of ancient Greece while Drizzt is the good but angst ridden outcast of a race of monsters in a world where killing stuff for "fat lootz" while frowned upon isn't unheard of. One is very good at killing lots of things (Drizzt) the other is a master of killing that one thing that really needs to die (Druss).

[Fan]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Druss essentially a "peak human" type of deal?

Drizzit with the bracers on his ankles is more along the lines of being superhuman, and he has more training and experience in dealing with people with superhuman and divine attributes.

While the level of Superhuman is lower than I'm used to dealing with traditionally, I'm not inclined to side with the guy with lower stats because his supporters say he demonstrates more skill when PAINSTAKING detail is paid to every step in Drizzt's early fights with the drow, parries, feints, disarms, and dirty fighting all see a place in his days of fighting and he never fights what I'd call "Stupidly.", and he's stalemated and bested champions of armies in his own right.

Keep in mind, I still hate Drizzt, but the guy has a bow that shoots arrows through several armored orcs all wearing breastplates, in another instance the arrow went through an armored orc, bounced off a wall, shattered a spear to bounce again before going through another orc's head. This is all in one shot.

Then he has his spidersilk shirt which grants invulnerability to slashing attacks (His own enchanted scimitar's couldn't cut it.), could move as fast as Guenhwyvar without the bracer's boosting his speed (And a panther is considerably faster movement wise then a person, landspeed record wise by about 10 mph, ignoring the fact that it's astral and canonically faster than it's material equivalent that's like the addition of constantly sprinting once again around your opponent at a comfortable run over what they're moving at. Assuming Druss is a world record setting olympic sprinter.)

I don't think Druss really has a chance here, as tough as he his Drizzt has weaponry and magic which blows holes through people.

It's a battle of a man against someone with faster than eye movements (Human or Drow.) v.s. a normal, but incredibly tenacious peak human guy who's fought for literally 1/10th the time.

Druss loses out on skill, weaponry, and speed on this one. I'll give him physical strength, but with Drizzt's lighter equipment that's able to take more punishment (Not to mention almost specifically designed for this, with the extra resistance to slashing weapons.), and his ability to do more damage per hit thanks to enchantments, I have to give it to the Drow.

[hamishspence]

It's worth remembering that the bow belongs to Catti-brie: while she has lent it to Drizzt on occasion- I'm not sure if he should be assumed to have it as standard.

And Drizzt was only 70 in the pre-Spellplague books. Since Druss was 60 at Dros Delnoch, and had been fighting since he was in his mid-teens, I don't think the disparity is all that big.

[Fan]

It's worth remembering that the bow belongs to Catti-brie: while she has lent it to Drizzt on occasion- I'm not sure if he should be assumed to have it as standard.

She is his wife, it should be assumed that they have access to each other's equipment.

"Going to fight a really strong guy today sweetie, don't know who he is or what he's got with him, but odds are I'll need a decent bow and mine's no good."

"Eh, I don't know a +3 Force Keen Elven bow to hunt, I'll use yours today, take the never ending quiver too, we still have a few arrows fletched so I'll be fine."

"Thanks, love you."

"Love you too."

End of it.

That, and ever since "The Hunter's Blade" trilogy, he uses the bow more than she does canonically, and in the timeline leading out 100 years later. He uses it to slay giants long after she passed indicating that it's his in a period still in the prime of his Drow life.

[hamishspence]

The OP:



Drizzt Do'Urden: Drizzt has had much training not only in Menzoberranzan at the Melee-Magthere and a few weeks at the Sorcere as well as training from his father but from Montolio deBrouchee or "Mooshie" his ranger mentor if it weren't for Mooshie, Drizzt might not have lived long on the surface world .

Drizzt has many assets in his arsenal, such as his two scimitars-

Icingdeath: Taken from the lair of Ingeloakastimizilian, or Icingdeath, as the barbarians of Icewind Dale call it; the mighty white wyrm dragon. It protects its user from heat and flame. It is held in Drizzt's right hand. It is also a weapon which can harm tan'ari and demons alike. Drizzt did not initally name this scimitar, but did finally name it after the powerful dragon that he obtained it from.

Twinkle: His left handed scimitar, was given to him by the wizard Malchor Harpell. It glows a bright blue seemingly based on the users mood.

Bracers of Blinding Strike: Taken from Dantrag Baenre (Baenre weapon master). They were originally used by Dantrag as bracers to increase the wearers arm speed. This allowed the wearer to execute lightening fast attacks. Due to the speed of the attacks the wearer was unable to improvise or stop midd routine. Drizzt took these bracers and placed them on his ankles giving him greater running speed as his arms are fast enough.


The general terms of the contest are as follows. Both have the gear listed and no more. That means no panther summoning for drizzt. This is a straight up duel between army champions on an open plain. No assassinations, no confusing melee of a general battle where they meet and no backup.

did seem to be ruling out the possibility of "assassination" style tactics by Drizzt- and doesn't list the bow as part of his gear.

[Kyberwulf]

Even without the magical equipment I would still have to give it to Drizzt. Artemis was pretty much another "Human Paragon" and he was barely even matched with Drizzt.

[Fan]

The OP:


did seem to be ruling out the possibility of "assassination" style tactics by Drizzt- and doesn't list the bow as part of his gear.

I wasn't saying assassination, but if the OP forbids the bow then so be it.

100+ years of training, and another 100+ (depending on how far Drizzt is in his own timeline.) years of actual combat training including multiple wars of his own trumps any experience a normal human could've crammed into their odd 60 years of being alive.

That's just a matter of living longer, and fighting just as much throughout that entire period, completely disregarding the equipment advantage and experience dealing with divinity enhanced entities (Logically above any human paragon.), I still have to give it to the drow.

Faster reflexes, more and better training from more skilled people, better weaponry, and armor designed to resist the type of attack he's up against if he does get tagged.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Now, coming from not actually reading any of the Druss books. You all are coming off as HUGE fan boys of Druss, and just hate of Drizzt. I am not a Drizzt fan or think he is the greatest. However I don't just crap on other peoples works.

That's a bit unfair, don't you think?

I believe that the reason why so many are Druss fans in this thread is because Gemmel was the better writer when it came to making readers feel for the characters, their deeds and skills.

[Fan]

That's a bit unfair, don't you think?

I believe that the reason why so many are Druss fans in this thread is because Gemmel was the better writer when it came to making readers feel for the characters, their deeds and skills.

This one is inarguable, Drizzt is infamous in DND circles for a damn good reason.

I am not a fan (Hurr hurr), I just always side with the people with better stats and represented feats to back them up (unsubstantiated statements without precedent in universe are worthless mind you. "This Kamehameha will destroy the solar system!" being the one that comes to mind. :P ) Personally, the only reason I even know half of what I do is because I read the books in an age of poorer literary taste before I really had reliable access to the internet and "downloads".

[Emmerask]

To me it will always pan out like the rob roy end fight :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Going by The Grand History of the Realms:

Drizzt was born in 1297.
Drizzt fled Menzoberranzan in 1328.
Drizzt arrived on the surface in 1340.
Drizzt arrived in Icewind Dale in 1346.
The last part of The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, and The Halfling's Gem take place in 1356.
The last part of The Orc King (Wulfgar's return to Icewind Dale) takes place in 1372.

So- Drizzt did not have 100 years of training- more like 14 years, from the start of his training with Zaknafein at 16, to his graduation from Melee Magathere at the age of 30.

In which book did he get that "spidersilk shirt" anyway?

[Traab]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Druss essentially a "peak human" type of deal?

Drizzit with the bracers on his ankles is more along the lines of being superhuman, and he has more training and experience in dealing with people with superhuman and divine attributes.

While the level of Superhuman is lower than I'm used to dealing with traditionally, I'm not inclined to side with the guy with lower stats because his supporters say he demonstrates more skill when PAINSTAKING detail is paid to every step in Drizzt's early fights with the drow, parries, feints, disarms, and dirty fighting all see a place in his days of fighting and he never fights what I'd call "Stupidly.", and he's stalemated and bested champions of armies in his own right.

Keep in mind, I still hate Drizzt, but the guy has a bow that shoots arrows through several armored orcs all wearing breastplates, in another instance the arrow went through an armored orc, bounced off a wall, shattered a spear to bounce again before going through another orc's head. This is all in one shot.

Then he has his spidersilk shirt which grants invulnerability to slashing attacks (His own enchanted scimitar's couldn't cut it.), could move as fast as Guenhwyvar without the bracer's boosting his speed (And a panther is considerably faster movement wise then a person, landspeed record wise by about 10 mph, ignoring the fact that it's astral and canonically faster than it's material equivalent that's like the addition of constantly sprinting once again around your opponent at a comfortable run over what they're moving at. Assuming Druss is a world record setting olympic sprinter.)

I don't think Druss really has a chance here, as tough as he his Drizzt has weaponry and magic which blows holes through people.

It's a battle of a man against someone with faster than eye movements (Human or Drow.) v.s. a normal, but incredibly tenacious peak human guy who's fought for literally 1/10th the time.

Druss loses out on skill, weaponry, and speed on this one. I'll give him physical strength, but with Drizzt's lighter equipment that's able to take more punishment (Not to mention almost specifically designed for this, with the extra resistance to slashing weapons.), and his ability to do more damage per hit thanks to enchantments, I have to give it to the Drow.

He doesnt have the bow or this shirt. I listed at the start what "special" gear he gets, as this is supposed to be a contest between warriors, not between who has the most powerful magic items. While I will grant you the big speed bonus drizzt has, keep in mind that druss has also fought against "superhuman" opponents. Most notably Joinings, Monstrous creatures made by dark magic that meld people with animals, creating incredibly powerful and vicious foes.

As for experience, Druss has been fighting in war after war after war for at the end of his life, over 45 years. He has fought for and against literally every nation in his world, fighting the mooks, elite, and champions of everyone. His experience is far from infinitesimal compared to Drizzt's. I admit to not keeping track of his series past, I think, the 4th series of his perhaps? Anyways, the experience disparity by this point isnt very noticeable, and I would contend that the quality of that experience is in the favor of Druss.

Drizzt spent 10 years in school learning to fight. Druss from the moment he first picked up his axe was in never ending real combat. No training, no spars, just toss him in the deep end and watch him chop a hole through everything in his way. The drow academy was vicious, but I think getting real life experience fighting against a half dozen different styles of combat outweighs that. Drizzt was learning to fight other drow, druss was learning to kill anything that opposed him no matter what skills they had.

I think in the end it just comes down to strength and endurance versus speed and agility. Those bracers may be the main tipping point in Drizzt's favor.

[Kyberwulf]

I think this isn't really a Match Up fight, so much as a popularity contest.

[Fan]

Going by The Grand History of the Realms:

Drizzt was born in 1297.
Drizzt fled Menzoberranzan in 1328.
Drizzt arrived on the surface in 1340.
Drizzt arrived in Icewind Dale in 1346.
The last part of The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, and The Halfling's Gem take place in 1356.
The last part of The Orc King (Wulfgar's return to Icewind Dale) takes place in 1372.

So- Drizzt did not have 100 years of training- more like 14 years, from the start of his training with Zaknafein at 16, to his graduation from Melee Magathere at the age of 30.

In which book did he get that "spidersilk shirt" anyway?

Excuse me, I was wrong on that.

That's still 14 years of single combat training, followed by another 20 in the melee magathere, and at the end of his projected future timeline he's fought in 3 wars, and lived another 100 years which is covered in the "Transitions" Series with The Orc King. There his standard equipment includes The Heartseeker Bow with the lightning arrows like I mentioned. If he's not being given the gear, he should be allowed the experience from the HUNDREDS of years of training and fighting at the very least.

A formal training and education in the nuances of combat is FAR better than being taught on the battlefield, because while you DO learn what you need to know you pick up a lot of bad habits just from not knowing that they're bad habits. and Zaknafien was FAR more skilled than Druss has any right to claim to be, being hundreds of years old himself and having fought in dozens of his own wars. Having been 400 at his own original passing.

[hamishspence]

Excuse me, I was wrong on that.

That's still 14 years of single combat training, followed by another 20 in the melee magathere

4 years of training from Zak, followed by 10 years at the Academy, actually. He left Menzoberranzan a year or so after graduating.

And just how much "levelling" would he have actually undergone in the 100-years between the "present day" scenes in The Orc King, and the "future" scenes?

[Kyberwulf]

Not only the training, he survived for awhile in the underdark. Which I mentioned before, he as that other persona thing. The hunter or whatever. Something about being pure instinct and speed. He has survived countless wars and scrimmages.

[Cikomyr]

He doesnt have the bow or this shirt. I listed at the start what "special" gear he gets, as this is supposed to be a contest between warriors, not between who has the most powerful magic items. While I will grant you the big speed bonus drizzt has, keep in mind that druss has also fought against "superhuman" opponents. Most notably Joinings, Monstrous creatures made by dark magic that meld people with animals, creating incredibly powerful and vicious foes.

Drizzt has already face the spidery equivalent of a Joinings: a Dridder. It was actually pretty trivial for him.

Drizzt also faced an earth elemental 1 on 1. He went after a tribe of 12-feet tall Frost Giants for fun.


As for experience, Druss has been fighting in war after war after war for at the end of his life, over 45 years. He has fought for and against literally every nation in his world, fighting the mooks, elite, and champions of everyone.

So, basically hordes of mooks and a few highly skilled warriors. That barely compares to Drizz't own achievements during the various wars he participated in.


His experience is far from infinitesimal compared to Drizzt's. I admit to not keeping track of his series past, I think, the 4th series of his perhaps? Anyways, the experience disparity by this point isnt very noticeable, and I would contend that the quality of that experience is in the favor of Druss.

and you would be wrong. Drizzt survived on his own in the Underdark for 10 years. He was part of the most prestigious Menzoberranzan patrol for a few years also. He spent six years hunting pirates in the Western Sea, and went on a rampage against an army of thousands of orcs. Never stopping to recuperate because he had a death wish.


Drizzt spent 10 years in school learning to fight. Druss from the moment he first picked up his axe was in never ending real combat. No training, no spars, just toss him in the deep end and watch him chop a hole through everything in his way. The drow academy was vicious, but I think getting real life experience fighting against a half dozen different styles of combat outweighs that. Drizzt was learning to fight other drow, druss was learning to kill anything that opposed him no matter what skills they had.

Drizzt was taught by freakkin' Zaknafein for years before he even stepped in school. Melee-Maghtere did not taught him combat; it taught him tactics. He learned to fight everything the drow would find in the underdark, which is probably a lot more dangerous and displays more variety than what Druss have faced.


I think in the end it just comes down to strength and endurance versus speed and agility. Those bracers may be the main tipping point in Drizzt's favor

Think what you want, if you want to screw the contest in your favourite character's favour. But everything points out to Drizzt being a more experience, faster and more well-rounded killer. Able to engage in multiple techniques; either through ranged combat, assassination methods, blind fighting or just kiting.

The only argument I've heard about Druss being able to handle himself without his sense of sight is that he "morally withstood the laments of the damned". That doesn't mean crap against an enemy who trained for decades in fighting in absolute darkness and can call such darkness at his desire.

[hamishspence]

That said, Entreri has fought him to a stalemate on several occasions.

[Emmerask]

The main question I have, can 1 dimensional characters (ie drizzt) even fight against someone who has more dimensions?

[Kyberwulf]

I don't know, Druss just sounds like another one dimensional character too.

[Cikomyr]

I don't know, Druss just sounds like another one dimensional character too.

He doesn't to me. I think his defenders are really high on him because of what he represents in his story world. He is as much a symbol through his badassness and resolve as he is a great warrior.

I can't say it's not a good take, and probably very inspiring in the books when you read it.


It doesn't change the fact that no argument presented before actually supports him being a more impressive killing machine than Drizz't. D&D settings are THAT high-powered. Druss sounds to me he'd be more at home in the Conan setting, comparing himself to the likes of Conan and Kull.

[Fan]

That said, Entreri has fought him to a stalemate on several occasions.

Artemis has his own array of stat ehancing items though, most of them better than Drizzt's own, including a hat specifically designed to deny Drizzt's advantage over him in dark areas, and a life sapping dagger that no doubt allowed him to weather the thousand cuts quite a bit better.

He's also never beaten Drizzt, and Drizzt's managed to rack up two wins , including one without help.

Again, I give it to Drizzt. The guy keeps up with things that we have a baseline for how fast they are, and can convert it over to real world equivalents without need for traditional conjecture, and he's faster than the fastest human WITHOUT the bracers. With the bracers on his ankles, I think that Druss can't keep up, and has far less experience in the actual finesse of one on one combat than Drizzt does, Drizzt having spent 10 years doing nothing BUT one on one duels one after another.

As for what he was doing for the 100 years, he was trying to kill himself going through endless battle.

[Kyberwulf]

By the same tolkien, in forgotten realms, Drizzt is a paragon of badassness and resolve also. Not just on the battlefield. But in fight prejudices and overcoming racial hatred.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't change the fact that no argument presented before actually supports him being a more impressive killing machine than Drizz't. D&D settings are THAT high-powered. Druss sounds to me he'd be more at home in the Conan setting, comparing himself to the likes of Conan and Kull.

How about vs a more Conanesque D&D character, like Wulfgar?

[Cikomyr]

How about vs a more Conanesque D&D character, like Wulfgar?

Then from what I've read in this thread, discarding fanboy argument like


you would pick Druss, because he flat out doesnt lose.

Druss would win. Wulfgar is a badass, obviously. But there hasn't ever been anything about him that proved to me he was anything more than a main character wannabe who was downgraded to part of a crew in his 2nd book, and then a disposable secondary character in the following trilogy.

He is strong, but there is nothing that ever proved to me he is exceptionally so. Or a better fighter. Or a better leader.

[Fan]

How about vs a more Conanesque D&D character, like Wulfgar?

Wulfgar has the edge in weight, and in damage sustained there. Having only died after he was over 100, had pneumonia, and decided to go kill Yeti's WITH HIS BARE HANDS. Killing seven of the beasts before succumbing to his wounds in battle.

I'm sorry, that's about even less of a contest. Druss is flat out beaten in every department by Wulfgar at his own game. Wulfgar's larger, weighs more in muscle, died in battle against stronger and more numerous opponents managing a higher kill count without a weapon under similar conditions of duress in harsher environmental conditions.

[Traab]

Then from what I've read in this thread, discarding fanboy argument like



Druss would win. Wulfgar is a badass, obviously. But there hasn't ever been anything about him that proved to me he was anything more than a main character wannabe who was downgraded to part of a crew in his 2nd book, and then a disposable secondary character in the following trilogy.

He is strong, but there is nothing that ever proved to me he is exceptionally so. Or a better fighter. Or a better leader.


Nice way to take my quote out of context and be insulting at the same time. What I actually said was,


Druss is the guy you want fighting along side you. Bar none, out of every hero and big name in the entire series, if you could pick just one of them to stand by your side in a fight to save the world, or even to protect your friend, you would pick Druss, because he flat out doesnt lose

I was talking about in the Gemmel universe, druss is the go to guy. Even the other big names like skilganon and the like who have met him or know about him have always spoken of him with reverence and awe. Even his ENEMIES feel that way about him for crying out loud! Its no more a fanboy statement than saying sherlock holmes is the best detective in his universe. In gemmelverse, Druss is THE man.

[Kyberwulf]

But sherlock isn't the best detective. His brother is.

[Traab]

But sherlock isn't the best detective. His brother is.

He has a brother? What? Ok fine, whatever, then its like saying drizzt is a drow is a fanboyish statement. Do you get my point now?

[Kyberwulf]

Not really, Because Drizzit, is a drow. It's his race. Nothing really fanboyish about that.

[Cikomyr]

Nice way to take my quote out of context and be insulting at the same time. What I actually said was,



I was talking about in the Gemmel universe, druss is the go to guy. Even the other big names like skilganon and the like who have met him or know about him have always spoken of him with reverence and awe. Even his ENEMIES feel that way about him for crying out loud! Its no more a fanboy statement than saying sherlock holmes is the best detective in his universe. In gemmelverse, Druss is THE man.

The only thing it says is that Druss has a very good reputation within his universe, and his opposition is weaker than him.

It's a comparative measure of badassness that doesn't apply to a Vs. thread, because the very idea of a Vs. thread is to take two characters out of their context and face them up. Telling me "he's the man" gives no real comparative measure beyond fanboy adoration line.

You don't make an argument saying that "Character X is the most powerful in its universe". It may very well be that Character X's universe is weak. The most powerful thing you have given us so far are the "Joined", and they rank on the weakish scale of things Drizzt face. Have you more impressive things Druss faced to present us?

[Traab]

The only thing it says is that Druss has a very good reputation within his universe, and his opposition is weaker than him.

It's a comparative measure of badassness that doesn't apply to a Vs. thread, because the very idea of a Vs. thread is to take two characters out of their context and face them up. Telling me "he's the man" gives no real comparative measure beyond fanboy adoration line.

You don't make an argument saying that "Character X is the most powerful in its universe". It may very well be that Character X's universe is weak. The most powerful thing you have given us so far are the "Joined", and they rank on the weakish scale of things Drizzt face. Have you more impressive things Druss faced to present us?

What you seem to have missed is, that whole "fanboyish" paragraph was me explaining why I chose druss to face drizzt instead of someone like Skilgannon. I was saying that I picked druss because he is basically the acknowledged strongest fighter in the gemmel series for that universe. It has nothing to do with how he does or does not match up to drizzt.It had nothing to do with being a druss fanboy, its just an established fact of that universe.

[DeusMortuusEst]

This one is inarguable, Drizzt is infamous in DND circles for a damn good reason.

I am not a fan (Hurr hurr), I just always side with the people with better stats and represented feats to back them up (unsubstantiated statements without precedent in universe are worthless mind you. "This Kamehameha will destroy the solar system!" being the one that comes to mind. :P ) Personally, the only reason I even know half of what I do is because I read the books in an age of poorer literary taste before I really had reliable access to the internet and "downloads".

Oh, I agree. If you were to take the two from their respective universes, I'd bet on Drizzt, sadly enough. However, my heart would be with Druss the entire fight and no one would be happier if he did win because Drizzt is... boring. He's boring, badly written and not especially impressing within the setting he exists. Druss is the exact opposite, and he deserves to win :smalltongue:

My 2 cp.

[Emmerask]

Oh, I agree. If you were to take the two from their respective universes, I'd bet on Drizzt, sadly enough. However, my heart would be with Druss the entire fight and no one would be happier if he did win because Drizzt is... boring. He's boring, badly written and not especially impressing within the setting he exists. Druss is the exact opposite, and he deserves to win :smalltongue:

My 2 cp.

And 90% of the internet would cheer with you ^^
Seriously there are most likely only 2 Protagonists in fantasy I find more boring and aggravating at the same time, that honor is reserved for Bella Swan and Richard Rahl :smallwink:

Come to think of it we should create a team of the most annoying protagonists in fantasy ^^

[DeusMortuusEst]

And 90% of the internet would cheer with you ^^
Seriously there are most likely only 2 Protagonists in fantasy I find more boring and aggravating at the same time, that honor is reserved for Bella Swan and Richard Rahl :smallwink:

Come to think of it we should create a team of the most annoying protagonists in fantasy ^^

Ah, a Five Man Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand) perhaps?

Richard as the Leader, Drizzt as the Lancer, Bella as the Chick. We need two more, the Big Guy and the Smart Guy. Any ideas? For Big Guy I nominate Belgarion from the Belgariad. He's not that big, but he's certainly stupid. And annoying.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, just on the basis of my partisanship, I'll say that Druss would cleave the dark elf from weasand to fork, and go on his merry way muttering something about "he who fears death least wins such combats." :smallwink:

I'd give the elf a slight chance on the basis of magic weapons, though.

[dehro]

I fail to see why Drizzt should get his magical gear and Druss shouldn't at least get Snaga the Sender as it was when it was possessed. Then again, Druss fought more than half his battles without the demon in his axe, so..not really all that necessary.

I'd say that the only real advantage Drizzt has on Druss is magic (as in spells, not his gear).
on any other level, Druss wipes the floor with him.
Druss famously is unstoppable and overcomes all odds stacked against him.
He routinely beats up stronger and better prepared fighters than himself (training shmaining.. he was an uncouth lumberjack when he knocked out in a straight up bout a fighter who had trained all his life for the ring and was at the peak of his condition)... he fights well beyond his own limits and he has a natural instinct for seizing the moment to turn the tide of any battle, be it a duel or a pitched battle. he is rather quick if not nearly as fast as Drizzt, and is proverbially strong and resilient. his innate strategic talent tells him how to move on a battlefield and teaches him to anticipate his opponent's moves, no matter how quick those may be.
if all of this wasn't enough, there's the one attribute that definitely seals his victory: his determination. it's so strong that not even death can stop him.
what the OP forgot to mention about his death is that in fact Druss
comes back right after dying, to kick some more ass..because he has decided not to head for the drenai version of paradise just yet. he's that awesome.
in fact, even after that, he'll stick around a little more helping those who get lost after death to reach paradise if they can't make it on their own strength. all the while, fighting the demonic denizens of the spirit world, for the fun of it. and the Source doesn't dare reminding him that he's not supposed to do that.

he himself is not sure he could beat Skillgannon, which makes for a more interesting fight.
another fighter that shares many of Druss's attributes is Cohen the Barbarian, from the Discworld Universe. That too would be an awesome fight to watch.

P.S. as for the bow, one of the first stunts we get to see Druss perform (in his old age) is the cleaving in two of an arrow aimed at him by means of a swipe of his axe...and that's just because he was making a point. in the rest of the book .. he ducks.

[Fan]

I fail to see why Drizzt should get his magical gear and Druss shouldn't at least get Snaga the Sender as it was when it was possessed. Then again, Druss fought more than half his battles without the demon in his axe, so..not really all that necessary.

I'd say that the only real advantage Drizzt has on Druss is magic (as in spells, not his gear).
on any other level, Druss wipes the floor with him.
Druss famously is unstoppable and overcomes all odds stacked against him.
He routinely beats up stronger and better prepared fighters than himself (training shmaining.. he was an uncouth lumberjack when he knocked out in a straight up bout a fighter who had trained all his life for the ring and was at the peak of his condition)... he fights well beyond his own limits and he has a natural instinct for seizing the moment to turn the tide of any battle, be it a duel or a pitched battle. he is rather quick if not nearly as fast as Drizzt, and is proverbially strong and resilient. his innate strategic talent tells him how to move on a battlefield and teaches him to anticipate his opponent's moves, no matter how quick those may be.
if all of this wasn't enough, there's the one attribute that definitely seals his victory: his determination. it's so strong that not even death can stop him.
what the OP forgot to mention about his death is that in fact Druss
comes back right after dying, to kick some more ass..because he has decided not to head for the drenai version of paradise just yet. he's that awesome.
in fact, even after that, he'll stick around a little more helping those who get lost after death to reach paradise if they can't make it on their own strength. all the while, fighting the demonic denizens of the spiritual world, for the fun of it. and the Source doesn't dare reminding him that he's not supposed to do that.

he himself is not sure he could beat Skillgannon, which makes for a more interesting fight.
another fighter that shares many of Druss's attributes is Cohen the Barbarian, from the Discworld Universe. That too would be an awesome fight to watch.


The thing is, Drizzt's "training" is a longer, more intense due to a callous lack of concern for his life and murder actually being encouraged, and comes from a more skilled teacher than any human can possibly be.

A general at the end of his life, as a human, has the wisdom of maybe 3 dozen large battles assuming he is a HUGE AWESOME general.

Zaknafien had about 4 times that, as a single person, the amount of experience and perspective that'd give into training and what is needed in battle would be absolutely ridiculous.

Coupled with already beyond peak human speed (Druss is peak human, he preforms no exceptionally superhuman speed feats. Drizzt on the other hand has demonstrated faster than eye movement to both trained Drow and Humans.)

You also cannot compare Druss to peak human in Forgotten Realms, there is no "Peak Human" in a DnD setting, due to it's firm ground in fantasy a human through extreme training can obtain epic magic. While Druss is also in a fantasy universe, it's more akin to a LOTOR than it is Sword and Sorcery, the magical elements there are present but are not the overt driving force.

He cannot be as quick as Drizzt given his demonstrated feats of strength and speed that I've been able to find. and going by the MINIMUM for faster than eye movement for a human sized (1 meter) object to be "blurry and out of focus" is around 89 m/s or roughly 200 MPH for a 1 meter object traveling that fast (Note, this is relevant to distance, the larger the distance traveled the greater the speed needed, anything farther than 10 meters ((the baseline used here)) would require significantly more speed.))

Druss is not "Faster than a speeding bullet", so it's safe to assume he can't react here, and Drizzt is ultimately capable of going for a decapitating blow in the time frame it would take for Druss to catch up to him (Moving at the peak human of 27.9 MPH, again, giving him the foot speed of the fastest person in history at a dead sprint, as a combat speed. He is behind by a near multiple of 10.)

It's not only unlikely for Druss to win, but the Lamest Drow on the Planet is actually an insurmountable foe for him.

If you doubt me, try to fight someone who gets 10 meters of movement for every 1 meter of movement you get. Even a child would do considerable damage to an adult that way.

[Traab]

I think you are confusing his top run speed with his top hand speed. That drizzt would stomp all over druss in a foot race isnt up for question, but in general, feet move slower than hands. Hell, thats why drizzt has those bracers on his legs in the first place, because his hands already move so fast his feet can barely keep up, and with the bracers on his wrists it gets way out of balance.

Dehro, I dont think snaga the sender was all that better as a "magic" weapon. It main power was to drive its user into a bloodthirsty psychotic break. I mean, maybe if drizzt hurled a fireball at druss it would come in handy, but from what I recall, he doesnt do that.

[Kyberwulf]

So,again I say, this is the hulk vs. the black widow fight. Druss is invincible. I think this can be used as a case of how badly written Druss is, if he can just decide not to die.

[Emmerask]

You should really read the books before you judge.

As far as I can tell most of those arguing for Druss have actually read some or all of the Drizzt books (I myself only the first few because I just didnt like them much).

[dehro]

the notion that being older and having more experience makes for a better teacher is at best laughable.. I've had plenty of near retirement teachers who gave crap explanations of the subjects they mastered.
now I'm not saying that's the case with Zakhnafein, but to claim that "he's 2-3 times older and has seen more battle so he must be a better teacher than any human ever had" is a logic step that I'm simply not willing to make.
the entire notion of peak human condition is again one that leaves me doubtful. we're comparing two different mindsets here, not just two settings. one is made of numbers and stats and high magic and different bonusses for different races..the other is steeped in epic narrative and heroic mythos.
on paper a drow is vastly faster than a human in Salvatore's setting. on paper, joinings are faster, stronger and more brutal than any human. Druss however isn't any human and he's killed a number of them with not too much effort.
to me this means that numbers and stats simply don't work because the saga of Druss is all about people who defeat the numbers and the odds... who are in many ways superhuman and human paragons. average humans, in drenai-verse don't get to return from the dead.. Druss and the 30 do.
because they're not entirely human despite being definitely human..if you see what I mean.
it's also unfair to place the etiquette of "peak human being" on Druss and then drag it into the DnD verse for the sake of comparison, because peak human being in dnd-verse doesn't say much.. in drenai verse, where human is pretty much the only thing going around, peak human being is basically peak everything..and I've already pointed out how Druss and a handfull of others in the Drenai saga are more than mere humans.
as for the training and it's value... one of Druss's first accomplishments was to wint he local version of boxing olympic gold.. as a young and pretty inexperienced man who wasn't even supposed to be on the team.. against a fighter who had been on the ring and prepping for the ring his entire life.
in DnD verse this wouldn't be possible. in Drenai-verse it's just the first of many examples that make up the epic mythos of Druss the Legend. an example of how every stat, every in universe technical consideration points at him being doomed to fail, and yet he comes out on top

pointing out the stats and numbers simply doesn't work for me, it's like comparing bacon and nutella. they're both awesome and both go in the tummy by way of the mouth, but that's where the comparison stops.

[Kyberwulf]

It isn't about wither or not I read the Druss books. It's about how they discribe them. For the most part. If I am to be taken their word for it. He can swing his axe in a 360' arc. Killing 20 guys with each swing. Is able to swing his weapon every 0.000000003ths of a second. Anything less then decapitation won't kill him... and then even if he does die. He can just will himself alive.

It's not about wither or not I read the books. It's about fanboyism.

[Fan]

I think you are confusing his top run speed with his top hand speed. That drizzt would stomp all over druss in a foot race isnt up for question, but in general, feet move slower than hands. Hell, thats why drizzt has those bracers on his legs in the first place, because his hands already move so fast his feet can barely keep up, and with the bracers on his wrists it gets way out of balance.

Dehro, I dont think snaga the sender was all that better as a "magic" weapon. It main power was to drive its user into a bloodthirsty psychotic break. I mean, maybe if drizzt hurled a fireball at druss it would come in handy, but from what I recall, he doesnt do that.

Actually, the "bracers" are worn as anklets because his legs COULDN'T keep up with his hands and the bracers balanced it out.

It's the entire reason for the switch, he found that his body couldn't move as fast as his hands without the bracer's on and with them on his legs he was able to keep up with his attack speed.

Again, what I'm describing IS his feet movements, and combat acrobatics. When fighting Drow in the Melee he was described as "Moving quicker than sight", and has been described as such as well by Cattie Brie in The Orc King when he's wading through an orc horde.

Again, I am patently NOT confusing the two, it's that Drizzt's striking speed is that quick.

He's still a god awful example of what's wrong with fantasy writing, but I'm just stating what I know from reading the books and my own basic knowledge of Faster than Eye movement from doing calc's in other threads.

Also, defeating insurmountable odds is the staple of any story. Defeating people who are stronger than you doesn't mean you always win though, and if someone is stronger than any opponent the person had ever faced, AND stronger, and faster, than the person at the peak with best equipment it is only fair to assume they lose rather than allow some "Plot Armor" excuse, where because they've defeated stronger characters due to plot necessity before, it doesn't mean that in a 1 on 1 duel with no extenuating conditions that they would've won against that same foe.

It's applying the "Hero always wins" trope to a versus battle as a statistic of their own capabilities, and while it does make them a warrior of legend in their own universe it extends them no special powers in the neutral territory of a versus match.

Beating a trained boxer in a boxing ring, while impressive, doesn't mitigate the advantage of longer, more strenuous, training. Druss won that fight, if I remember correctly, simply by being the peak human whereas the other person was a trained athletic human. "Peak" is in possession of all current world records, and someone in possession of all those atributes would be able to take down a Joining without too much effort, especially given a tactical advantage like Druss was in most of his fights, or if the foe is exceptionally stupid and not allowed to bring their physical might to bear (like a Joining.), in that sense their stats aren't ALLOWED to matter there, just as I don't really count Drizzt beating a Drider because he exploited weaknesses in the form of the beast rather than overcoming it in a straight up contest of might / speed.

Does the former prove tactical wit? Yes. Does it prove that he's as fast as any of these beasts, or that these beasts were even necessarily as fast as their animal counterparts and not some mid ground monstrosity? No.

[Traab]

Actually, the "bracers" are worn as anklets because his legs COULDN'T keep up with his hands and the bracers balanced it out.

It's the entire reason for the switch, he found that his body couldn't move as fast as his hands without the bracer's on and with them on his legs he was able to keep up with his attack speed.

Again, what I'm describing IS his feet movements, and combat acrobatics. When fighting Drow in the Melee he was described as "Moving quicker than sight", and has been described as such as well by Cattie Brie in The Orc King when he's wading through an orc horde.

Again, I am patently NOT confusing the two, it's that Drizzt's striking speed is that quick.

He's still a god awful example of what's wrong with fantasy writing, but I'm just stating what I know from reading the books and my own basic knowledge of Faster than Eye movement from doing calc's in other threads.

Yes, the bracer thing, thats exactly what I said. His hands were already faster than his feet, so putting the bracers on his wrist actually made him fight worse. So he put them on his legs instead. And yes, I get it, drizzt runs really fast, MY point is you are comparing Druss' run speed to drizzt and declaring victory, when Druss' HANDS move faster than that. Im not saying he is fast enough to stop drizzt, im not. Im just saying that, "He can only run this fast, therefore he cant block an attack from drizzt" is patently meaningless. He isnt running from or after drizzt, he is swinging his axe to block and attack. His hands move faster than his feet. EVERYONES hands move faster than their feet. Its why a pitcher can toss a 90 mph fastball and yet not outrun his car on the way home.

Run Speed does not equal Block Speed

[Fan]

Yes, the bracer thing, thats exactly what I said. His hands were already faster than his feet, so putting the bracers on his wrist actually made him fight worse. So he put them on his legs instead. And yes, I get it, drizzt runs really fast, MY point is you are comparing Druss' run speed to drizzt and declaring victory, when Druss' HANDS move faster than that. Im not saying he is fast enough to stop drizzt, im not. Im just saying that, "He can only run this fast, therefore he cant block an attack from drizzt" is patently meaningless. He isnt running from or after drizzt, he is swinging his axe to block and attack. His hands move faster than his feet. EVERYONES hands move faster than their feet. Its why a pitcher can toss a 90 mph fastball and yet not outrun his car on the way home.

Run Speed does not equal Block Speed

Then wouldn't the same logically apply to drizzt?

Even if we give him the peak reaction times ever examined in human history, 1/100ths of a second with perfectly trained body, with perfect genetics. He can't keep up with it.

And Drizzt has the advantage in swing speed if nothing else, with the dual wielding aspect along with scimitars being lighter than an axe. Even assuming rough parity in swing speed (which hasn't been proven, if the bracer's equalized move to swing speed then Drizzt's own attacks also come at 200 MPH. Still faster than Druss can react to.), Drizzt has the advantage in weapon choice being a lighter, agile, fighter that would be difficult for Druss to tag assuming rough parity in dodge skills.

Even with how you describe this fight, Druss would be on the ropes the entire time, and Drizzt has fought for WEEKS without food or rest (Again, when he was trying to kill himself.), and still has access to a greater amount of magic equipment than Druss does.

Druss is indisputiably the better character here, but from what I know of both the characters, even using your logic, I can't see Druss standing up to that kind of speed advantage.

A 10:1 attack and move speed difference just isn't fair.

[Traab]

Ah, but even so, is he fast enough to land that lethal move AND get away before getting cleaved? Once again, while 10:1 is accurate for travel speed, I dont think the same can be said for hand speed. I was doing a little fast research on swing speeds and such and found things like, the fastest baseball pitch was just over 100 mph, similar for swinging a cricket bat. Now, clearly a great whopping axe isnt as easy to fling around at those speeds, but we are still talking at likely going around 3x as fast as his travel speed. Chances are good that with his axe he is swinging at speeds that reduce that ratio gap to 3-1 or so. Drizzt is still way faster, but I dont think he is fast enough to attack and withdraw without getting an axe to the face.

[Forum Explorer]

Ah, but even so, is he fast enough to land that lethal move AND get away before getting cleaved? Once again, while 10:1 is accurate for travel speed, I dont think the same can be said for hand speed. I was doing a little fast research on swing speeds and such and found things like, the fastest baseball pitch was just over 100 mph, similar for swinging a cricket bat. Now, clearly a great whopping axe isnt as easy to fling around at those speeds, but we are still talking at likely going around 3x as fast as his travel speed. Chances are good that with his axe he is swinging at speeds that reduce that ratio gap to 3-1 or so. Drizzt is still way faster, but I dont think he is fast enough to attack and withdraw without getting an axe to the face.

Yes, yes he really is. Drizzt is fast enough to literally jump or duck a horizontal swing or to stand to the side to a vertical strike. Yes he is that overpowered and yes he has pretty much done exactly that before.

[Cuaqchi]

Really what this is coming down to is that Drizzt would win and everyone would bitch about it because compared to Druss - Drizzt is a crappy character. It's the complaint one could easily make when Achilles of myth (who ends up about 12th level) faces off with that power-gamed 23rd level pile of numbers the greasy skinned kid down the block made. Everyone wants Achilles to win because he is Achilles and that is what he does; but, the numbers don't let him and the loser character wins in the most annoying fashion possible.

[Kitten Champion]

Ah, a Five Man Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand) perhaps?

Richard as the Leader, Drizzt as the Lancer, Bella as the Chick. We need two more, the Big Guy and the Smart Guy. Any ideas? For Big Guy I nominate Belgarion from the Belgariad. He's not that big, but he's certainly stupid. And annoying.

For the Smart Guy, first/second season TNG Wesley Crusher.

[Fan]

Really what this is coming down to is that Drizzt would win and everyone would bitch about it because compared to Druss - Drizzt is a crappy character. It's the complaint one could easily make when Achilles of myth (who ends up about 12th level) faces off with that power-gamed 23rd level pile of numbers the greasy skinned kid down the block made. Everyone wants Achilles to win because he is Achilles and that is what he does; but, the numbers don't let him and the loser character wins in the most annoying fashion possible.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Though a character's power level NEVER bars them from being interesting or relatable. Same as the paint on the house doesn't stop it from being in a good neighborhood and being well maintained. :P

[dehro]

Anything less then decapitation won't kill him... and then even if he does die. He can just will himself alive.

It's about fanboyism.

I'm sorry, but you seem to confuse fanboyism with canon/word of god.

saying that he can will himself alive is not me gushing all over Druss and saying "he's so awesome that I'm sure he can hurl planets and ignore death and have perfect hair, even if it doesn't say so anywhere in the book, because I love him that much"
saying that he can will himself alive is me saying "Druss is pretty much like Rasputin: it took 7 men to defeat Druss, and they only managed to do so because he had poison going through his veins for the last 24 hours, had been wounded several times already, had been fighting for weeks, suffered from arthritis and was a pensioner... and yes, it's in the book, he really did come back from the death in aethereal form, just because he refused giving up..because Druss doesn't lose..which is why he is called the Legend".
Look it up: it's canon, not fanboyism.

Once again, he's "the" epic character at the center of a narration in which style and content are steeped in the ancient greek cult of heroes and myth, where the hero (and he's IT even when he's not the protagonist) is always the hero. He is always sure of himself, of what's right and what's wrong and on what his course of action should be.
His skill and prowess are literally the stuff of legend and magnified by a lense of awesome. In his setting, nobody he ever bothered fighting was ever at his level. The handful who may have been skilled enough to stand up to him and not die, either he didn't fight with out of mutual respect or didn't dare opposing him because, talent be damned, they were enough in awe of him that they'd go in battle knowing they'd most likely die... and that's half the fight lost right there.
He was written by Gemmell as a homage to a father figure whom he greatly admired.

Drizzt is a DnD character with recognizable stats, defined skills, magical enhancements and so on, written in a setting that includes high magic, creatures and other protagonists who are at least as deadly as him and who repeatedly confront him and get away with it. He is quantifiable in ways that Druss is not. Stats speak and determine whether he succeeds or not. Druss always has any recognizable stats working against him but still comes out on top. Drizzt is written as a heroic character with inner turmoil, misgivings and generally speaking, issues. He's a formidable fighter in a context that is rich with fighters as formidable as he is..and plenty of magic.
The style in which he's written is just not one that emphasizes the heroic qualities and gives them weight within the context. He was born a secondary character, on a spurr of the moment inspiration, who then grew into his own.
His author never intended him to become the awesome fighter/protagonist he became.
More importantly, cobble together a character with better DnD stats, skills and talents than him, within the same setting he moves in and Drizzt is either toast or fought to a standstill. Because that's how the context he lives in works. It's ruled by numbers and when you pile up enough numbers, eventually you get something that can beat even him. This simply is not so in the Drenai Saga, where the hero comes out on top because he is the hero and coming out on top is what the hero does.

One is designed and written from the get go to walk the earth as "the Legend" singled out to go down in history undefeated..
The other is a formidable hero but in this respect, "merely" a formidable hero amongst many, who became the protagonist when fanmail made Salvatore realize he was onto something.
One is designed in a setting where his opponents crap themselves (almost literally) when he notices them on the field of battle and where anybody who battles him must either be out of his mind or make a natural 20 on a will save, or suffer crippling morale damages.
Again, this is canon: he says so himself ..well.. not the d20 stuff..but he does say that he beats most of his opponents in their minds first and he can do that because, in the words of pretty much everybody within his setting, he's on a different level.
The other is one of an elite of fighters who are pretty much all on the same level of awesomeness, skill and resilience/resourcefullness (or as near as makes no difference). His opponents actually do have a shot at defeating him and when they don't succeed they set out to find means to do so the next time they meet him. They are not psychologically (and, admittedly plot-armour-y) overwhelmed by the sheer notion of having to go up against him...

They are simply written on different scales.
Whether that is to one's tastes or whether that makes for good reading or..in this case, a good comparison/confrontation, that's a matter of personal favour. One could argue that Druss's opponents never had a chance and choose to prefer reading about characters that are flawed and not know if they'll survive victorious or go down in flames. They're different kind of books in the way the Iliad is different from the Bourne saga.

on a sidenote, there is a slight problem with the OT, in my opinion... which goes back to how the Coat of Awesome works in the Drenai Saga. we're told to take Druss at his peak physical level. The thing is, Druss at his peak physical level was probably less effective than he was as an old man with arthritis... because when he was at his physical peak he was yet to become The Legend, which means his opponents were more daring and less sure of their impending death, which in turn makes for a tougher mental state and a tougher fight.
When Druss becomes The Legend, his opponents' morale affects their ability to withstand him..which gives him a massive edge, the way fights and characters are written by Gemmell.

[Kyberwulf]

So what your saying, is that Druss suffers from what I like to call. Supermanism, or Gokuism. He is SOOO awesome he can't be beat. He has no real foils. All of his allies exist to make him look better.

To me that means he is badly written.

[Dienekes]

Then go actually read Gemmell. He's generally regarded as one of the best fantasy writers, to many the best. Yes he made a character that is incredibly powerful, but it works. Amazingly. Honestly, Gemmell is one of the few writers I have never seen anyone complain against once they read him.

Also, saying that Superman is badly written is a glaring oversimplification. He can be, he can also be fantastically written. It depends on the writer and story and how the powered character is handled.

[BWR]

Gemmel just didn't do it for me. He was ...ok.

[dehro]

So what your saying, is that Druss suffers from what I like to call. Supermanism, or Gokuism. He is SOOO awesome he can't be beat. He has no real foils. All of his allies exist to make him look better.
yes

To me that means he is badly written.

no
(well, not to me)

to clarify: the first book written by Gemmel (or at least the first one published) is about how Druss dies a hero's death. from the very first page it's clear that Druss is going to die. this is the story of how even in death he cements his legend.
all subsequent books are nothing but accounts on how he got to be as badass as he is and how his death is in keeping with "the legend". the reader already knows that Druss isn't going to fail, that he's going to become the Legend, and that he'll eventually die on the walls of Dross Delnoch...
so why continue reading? because the tale is as important as it's ending and it's, simply put, well written enough to keep you entertained.
it's a bit like what you'd get if the Conan saga had been written back to front.

That said, he is not a standard fantasy hero, one who is exceptional but otherwise "makes sense" in the context of his setting... Druss is a hero in the mythological sense of the term, he is larger than life and his story is one that is meant to be on par with Odisseus, Achilles and the likes. To say he's badly written because he can't loose is akin to throwing away the greek (and latin) classics that are the root of all fantasy narrative...and to do so without having even tried reading them is ..well.. silly.

For anyone who has grown up reading the Illiad and the Odyssey, as I have, a character like Druss isn't "diminished" by being a bit of a Gary Stu... which he isn't anyway; he has his limitations and there are plenty of things he isn't good at at all.. he knows this and sticks to what he IS good at.
It reminds us of those classics and of when we were little and read about "pure" heroes, or at least heroes who look pure in our children's eyes, where good is good and bad is bad. Yes, as you grow older you may like to read about more nuanced characters and stories, but those old memories stay with you. the simple truth is (and yes, this may well be fanboyish) that I may like how badass Drizzt (or any other similar character) is, but I wouldn't want to be him..whereas Druss is someone who is pretty much designed for people to look up to, in the book and out of the book.
Gemmell pretty much said so himself, if not in these precise words: it's the depiction of the one man who I admire most in the whole world, a rolemodel and a hero to me. Druss is a hero to anybody he touches in the world I created around him.
If I'm not misremembering, that man would be his stepfather.
And that's pretty much what Druss is in the saga for those who live in his world: the rolemodel.. the one person whose approval is worth more to any man alive than that of their lords, parents, wives or comrades in arms and whose example is pointed at by everybody as the one to follow.
if that is too much of a superman for your tastes, and if you fear that that's too one-directional, I invite you to actually read the books in order of pubblication (meaning you start with his demise in "legend")
For my part, the quality of Gemmell's writing, storytelling and worldbuilding is of such a standard that I am willing to forgive any amount of garystu-ism in Druss.
Edit:
something I found after posting this reply (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=17739.5;wap)

[Chen]

dehro, all that you said is correct in how Gemmell envisioned and wrote Druss. But it has absolutely 0 to do with a versus thread where you need to compare the feats as written in each setting and then bring them to some common level so they can be compared to each other.

Saying Druss always beat all his opponents is irrelevant because we cannot directly compare his opponents to Drizzt. Something like "Druss could swing his axe so fast it would blur" or "Druss could cut an arrow in half when fired at him point blank" are things we can at least start to compare since they are based on a physical reality. Similarly if Drizzt can run at speeds that make him look blurred, we can use that to try and calculate how fast he's actually moving and use that to compare with how fast Druss can react.

We cannot compare nebulous plot armor (or the like) that each of the opponents have with each other because these are too subjective.

[dehro]

then I don't quite know how to go about it, because Druss's feats and abilities are described in a way that doesn't actually bother with the mechanics of his accomplishments in terms other than "it was awesome"..at best his movements and feats are described in terms of how his reputation is well deserved and how his skill makes grown men wet themselves. I haven't read the books in quite a while but other than a couple of trickshots such as him cleaving a speeding arrow in two or lifting a giant of a man over his head, there isn't much that can stand an objective scrutiny...and these, as I said, are trickshots..things he does to impress, not stuff he does in the heat of battle, where he's too busy mowing people down in a non detailled/described manner..again, most of his battle prowess lies in perfect timing, both in hand to hand melee and overal strategy and in his reputation causing a morale damage to his opponents..how do you put a measure to that, and how well does that hold against superspeed and magic? I simply don't know

have you read "interesting times" and "the last hero" by Terry Pratchett? there's a scene in the first book where the silver horde (a small bunch of geriatric barbarian heroes) is facing an entire army of men. those men are afraid to go up against them and the silver horde is wondering whether they should offer their opponents a chance to surrender.
in the second book, that same bunch of indomitable characters, minus one who choked on a fishbone, are facing Captain Carrot a single fighter with a sword that is explicitly not magic. They believe that they're doomed to fail if they oppose him, because he's a hero..and that's what The Code they live by says happens in such cases.

that's all parody (to an extent), but it's pretty much the vein in which Druss has been written. Numbers simply don't mean squat in front of narrative imperative... so..how DO you compare them?

[Kyberwulf]

I said it before, I will say it again.

This isn't a match up, its a popularity contest.

[Cikomyr]

I said it before, I will say it again.

This isn't a match up, its a popularity contest.

If it's a popularity contest, Druss most likely wins.

If it's a genuine match up, I just don't see how Drizzt can lose.

[Traab]

If it's a popularity contest, Druss most likely wins.

If it's a genuine match up, I just don't see how Drizzt can lose.

Easy. Name him the antagonist. That way he will trip and land on Snaga neck first while running in to deliver the coup de grace.

Heh, seriously though, Im still holding firm to my mutual kill theory. Drizzt is faster, but I just dont think he is fast enough to get in, deliver a death blow, and get out before that axe divides him in half. Druss has shown himself to be quick enough to deflect arrows with his axe. Thats some very fast reaction time and speed.

[Cikomyr]

Easy. Name him the antagonist. That way he will trip and land on Snaga neck first while running in to deliver the coup de grace.

Heh, seriously though, Im still holding firm to my mutual kill theory. Drizzt is faster, but I just dont think he is fast enough to get in, deliver a death blow, and get out before that axe divides him in half. Druss has shown himself to be quick enough to deflect arrows with his axe. Thats some very fast reaction time and speed.

Except that Drizzt doesn't have to deliver A killing blow anytime soon. He just need to cut notches off Druss. Nick his sinews at the knee, elbow.

Eventually, he'll do enough damage to slow Druss enough to go for more crippling injuries. Until he finally can safely land a truly killing blow.

[Traab]

Except that Drizzt doesn't have to deliver A killing blow anytime soon. He just need to cut notches off Druss. Nick his sinews at the knee, elbow.

Eventually, he'll do enough damage to slow Druss enough to go for more crippling injuries. Until he finally can safely land a truly killing blow.

Except drizzt now has to land MANY attacks on a guy capable of cutting arrows out of the air. Drizzt has to get lucky every time, druss only has to get lucky once. Like I said, I truly believe that drizzt can get in there, im even fairly certain he can land blows, but I dont think he can then get out of range before that axe swing goes through the space his torso is currently occupying.

[Sotharsyl]

For the Smart Guy, first/second season TNG Wesley Crusher.

Excellent choice :smallbiggrin:

For somebody who knows his Drizzt better he is a ranger which means for several editions he had access to low level druidic magic did he use it in the novel?


I said it before, I will say it again.

This isn't a match up, its a popularity contest.

If this helps I've never heard of Druss before this thread, I've heard of Drizzt countless time from his haters, now I've never read a Drizzt book because they don't sell them where I live I would like at least once to read one to see how he can conjure up so much hate, but from what I read in this thread I won't read a Druss novel because as his fans describe him he is the best there is, everybody loves or respects him, the center on which the whole story revolves in short a Mary Sue.

[Kyberwulf]

Again, see what I mean. Hulk Vs. Black widow fight here. No matter how hard Drizzt hits, how fast he hits, or how Deep he cuts. This Druss guy will just heal all his wounds, and still be fast enough to hit Lightning from the sky.
All it takes is a Cut from Drizzt sword to render a body part useless. This Druss guy isn't immune to damage.

The more I hear about this Druss guy, the more I am not inclined to read any of his books. Apperently, his only weakness, is dying a heroic death. Even then he can just will himself alive. What kind of hero has friends and enemies whose only purpose is to worship him. It is indeed a sad day, when Drizzt seems to be the more human out of choice.

Edit. The reason Drizzt gets so much hate, is because he was the most popular character in Forgotten Realms for awhile. Everyone copied him, and then it just got too annoying to see a drow dual using scimitars, and being angsty. Then it just got to be popular to just hate on him.

[Dienekes]

If this helps I've never heard of Druss before this thread, I've heard of Drizzt countless time from his haters, now I've never read a Drizzt book because they don't sell them where I live I would like at least once to read one to see how he can conjure up so much hate, but from what I read in this thread I won't read a Druss novel because as his fans describe him he is the best there is, everybody loves or respects him, the center on which the whole story revolves in short a Mary Sue.

Amusingly, in his first and most famous book, Legend, Druss isn't the focal point of the story that the world revolves around. He's more of an awesome side character. He plays that role a lot in other books in the series as well.

Really, the reason why he seems so important in this thread is because it's about fighting. That's what Druss does, that's it. He's THE warrior of his setting.

Now unless a sword cut from Drizzt swords will magically make any body part useless, then that's just fanboying in the opposite direction. Druss has been cut a few times (almost always in the front), he tends to not pay any attention to those wounds until the battle is over. Actually something that can happen a bit in real life when the adrenaline is up.

[Kyberwulf]

I am starting to think, the OP should have just logged on, signed in, and posted "Druss the Legend Kills Drizzt the Drow." Then just left it at that.

[Dienekes]

I am starting to think, the OP should have just logged on, signed in, and posted "Druss the Legend Kills Drizzt the Drow." Then just left it at that.

I'm curious as to why. Folks here don't seem to be making up things for either side, both are incredibly powerful combatants, the OP himself said that he thinks the most likely end in a double death. For me, and I will admit that I do not have more than one book experience on Drizzt the only argument for his side that seemed believable to doubt Druss victory was those superspeed bracers (which seem to me more like having an awesome weapon rather than any actual skill on Drizzt part but whatever). If there is some amazing feat that Drizzt accomplished as opposed to Druss say it. They're both fairly unrealistic fantasy warriors. So I'm not entirely certain what the cries of fanboyism are for unless you really just want Drizzt to win. But to me that sounds like just as ridiculous a fanboy cry.

[Kitten Champion]

The reason I don't like Drizzt stems mainly from being overused without the apparent substance to warrant it. He moves from sympathetic and somewhat original as the good seed in a family of mobster elves into being just a comic book superhero in fantasy novel form. He's got an interesting origin story and fun (if intentionally unoriginal) milieu, but everything after the Underdark has in my humble opinion obviously diminishing returns. Each novel becomes more superficial, repetitive, and generic than the last.

He would, however, still beat Druss. Druss is physically imposing certainly, but ultimately he's about his strength of character. That's why Druss' first appearance is about his death, not overcoming the Dragon. It's about facing inevitability with exquisite grace. To borrow a quote from Anthony Hopkins "When the fall is all there is, it matters."

Drizzt lives in a world of Drusses and beyond, and slays such regularly. Just none of it has any meaning.

[Traab]

Again, see what I mean. Hulk Vs. Black widow fight here. No matter how hard Drizzt hits, how fast he hits, or how Deep he cuts. This Druss guy will just heal all his wounds, and still be fast enough to hit Lightning from the sky.
All it takes is a Cut from Drizzt sword to render a body part useless. This Druss guy isn't immune to damage.

The more I hear about this Druss guy, the more I am not inclined to read any of his books. Apperently, his only weakness, is dying a heroic death. Even then he can just will himself alive. What kind of hero has friends and enemies whose only purpose is to worship him. It is indeed a sad day, when Drizzt seems to be the more human out of choice.

Edit. The reason Drizzt gets so much hate, is because he was the most popular character in Forgotten Realms for awhile. Everyone copied him, and then it just got too annoying to see a drow dual using scimitars, and being angsty. Then it just got to be popular to just hate on him.

I am starting to wonder why you even bother posting here. Everything you say is a complete exaggeration and you seem to hold anyone who votes for druss in disdain. Druss does not "heal all wounds" nor has anyone stated he can cut lightning from the sky, and then you come out with, "All it takes is a cut from drizzt swords to render a body part useless" That CAN be true, but its also just as likely to be a cut that just hurts a hell of alot. It all depends on where he hits and how deeply his blade cuts, which can vary depending on the nature of the attack and how druss responds to it.

Oh yeah, and Druss cant "will himself alive" In his first story he dies, then his spirit comes back briefly for one last stand at the final battle. And even then I dont think he fought as he was an insubstantial ghost. it was more, him and a group of mystic warriors that also had died there just stood there and presumably, noone dared to try to pass. I mean, would you? I think in one of the later books, the current hero of the story travels into the afterlife and meets druss who is kicking ass and taking names instead of moving on to his eternal rest, but my memory is hazy and its really meaningless to this discussion. Oh wait, he temporarily possesses someone who is basically a clone of his a thousand years later or whatever. Still, doesnt really add anything to the discussion except what his death and "comeback" were actually all about.

[Kyberwulf]

I would like to offer points, and counter points about this match up. I can't however. Because I haven't read any Druss books.
That being said, I have read a couple of the Drizzt books, and he has more then just speed and agility. He may not be able to lift mountains, he is pretty strong though. His hits with his blades do have some weight to them. My main problem with most of the Druss supporters, is that they discount Drizzt's hits as mere paper cuts. That sheer willpower can make cut ligaments, and torn tendons work. Drizzt can do more then dance around all day.

Why I say that they are acting like fanboys is because they make it sound like Druss has no weaknesses. He has no chance of losing. He is the perfect warrior. No matter what happens, he will just go on. They begrudgingly give Drizzt points for speed, then discount it as useless. Because Druss will just ignore any wounds he would have received.
People just ignore that Drizzt is also the "perfect warrior". He was trained. He learned to survive in the wilds of the underdark. There is more to him then just speed and agility.

I feel that the physical nature of both combatants cancel each other out. They both have survived though battles though sheer will power.(I am assuming on Druss's part, as I have never actually read anything.) Both have equally amounts of experience dealing with powerful foes(from what I hear about Druss). Both have the inborn battle instincts to survive multiple wars and scrimmages. What this all comes down to, is training. That is what Drizzt has over Druss.

Like I keep saying, this just seems more like a popularity contest.

[Forum Explorer]

then I don't quite know how to go about it, because Druss's feats and abilities are described in a way that doesn't actually bother with the mechanics of his accomplishments in terms other than "it was awesome"..at best his movements and feats are described in terms of how his reputation is well deserved and how his skill makes grown men wet themselves. I haven't read the books in quite a while but other than a couple of trickshots such as him cleaving a speeding arrow in two or lifting a giant of a man over his head, there isn't much that can stand an objective scrutiny...and these, as I said, are trickshots..things he does to impress, not stuff he does in the heat of battle, where he's too busy mowing people down in a non detailled/described manner..again, most of his battle prowess lies in perfect timing, both in hand to hand melee and overal strategy and in his reputation causing a morale damage to his opponents..how do you put a measure to that, and how well does that hold against superspeed and magic? I simply don't know

have you read "interesting times" and "the last hero" by Terry Pratchett? there's a scene in the first book where the silver horde (a small bunch of geriatric barbarian heroes) is facing an entire army of men. those men are afraid to go up against them and the silver horde is wondering whether they should offer their opponents a chance to surrender.
in the second book, that same bunch of indomitable characters, minus one who choked on a fishbone, are facing Captain Carrot a single fighter with a sword that is explicitly not magic. They believe that they're doomed to fail if they oppose him, because he's a hero..and that's what The Code they live by says happens in such cases.

that's all parody (to an extent), but it's pretty much the vein in which Druss has been written. Numbers simply don't mean squat in front of narrative imperative... so..how DO you compare them?

A big difference is that the Discworld literally runs on narrative function. There isn't physics, there is narrative fact. There's a reason you don't see a lot of Discworld vs matches, mostly because it runs on an alien physics and thus you have to define how everything works between the two universes being compared.


Except drizzt now has to land MANY attacks on a guy capable of cutting arrows out of the air. Drizzt has to get lucky every time, druss only has to get lucky once. Like I said, I truly believe that drizzt can get in there, im even fairly certain he can land blows, but I dont think he can then get out of range before that axe swing goes through the space his torso is currently occupying.

Drizzit is fast enough to get out of the range of a giant's swing. That is, attacks it and gets back before it can swing at him. And this was before he had the speed anklets. And it's not like Drizzit is weak, he's actually above human average. But he isn't above human peak.

Also Drizzit would be constantly trying to get around Druss to attack him from behind. Remember he routinely trains with Wulfgar, someone who is pretty fast, has a ranged attack, and is almost certainly stronger then Druss is.

[hamishspence]

Wulfgar manages to lift a fat man who "outweighed three average men" over his head, in Streams of Silver.

And I think in his older age (just before the Battle of Skeln Pass- at about 44) it's mentioned how he'd managed to lift a barrel full of sand over his head, which no-one else in his village could do. Though we don't know how big the barrel was.

[Traab]

A big difference is that the Discworld literally runs on narrative function. There isn't physics, there is narrative fact. There's a reason you don't see a lot of Discworld vs matches, mostly because it runs on an alien physics and thus you have to define how everything works between the two universes being compared.



Drizzit is fast enough to get out of the range of a giant's swing. That is, attacks it and gets back before it can swing at him. And this was before he had the speed anklets. And it's not like Drizzit is weak, he's actually above human average. But he isn't above human peak.

Also Drizzit would be constantly trying to get around Druss to attack him from behind. Remember he routinely trains with Wulfgar, someone who is pretty fast, has a ranged attack, and is almost certainly stronger then Druss is.

Not to downplay the giant thing, because that is pretty awesome, but I dont think giants are considered to be very fast or dexterous are they? I mean, dodging a giants club is like running away from a falling telephone pole. Its not going to suddenly change direction in mid drop so you take two steps to the side and you are out of its impact zone. Giants are big dumb and not that quick. (relatively speaking of course, having a 15 foot stride means even a slow pace covers ground fast) And if I am remembering correctly, didnt drizzt end up taking a rib shattering blast to the chest in his rather insane effort to take down a freaking tribe of giants?

I will admit that training against wulfgar WOULD help drizzt out with knowing how to handle druss though. Im trying to think if drussever really fought a 2 sword wielding speed demon type. On a side note, am I the only one who keeps typing drizzt when I mean druss and druss when I mean drizzt? I had to edit one post 3 freaking times to finish straightening out all the name switches i did. Damn that OP, giving us two contestants with names so similar. I hope that handsome devil gets whats coming to him.

[Forum Explorer]

Not to downplay the giant thing, because that is pretty awesome, but I dont think giants are considered to be very fast or dexterous are they? I mean, dodging a giants club is like running away from a falling telephone pole. Its not going to suddenly change direction in mid drop so you take two steps to the side and you are out of its impact zone. Giants are big dumb and not that quick. (relatively speaking of course, having a 15 foot stride means even a slow pace covers ground fast) And if I am remembering correctly, didnt drizzt end up taking a rib shattering blast to the chest in his rather insane effort to take down a freaking tribe of giants?

I will admit that training against wulfgar WOULD help drizzt out with knowing how to handle druss though. Im trying to think if drussever really fought a 2 sword wielding speed demon type. On a side note, am I the only one who keeps typing drizzt when I mean druss and druss when I mean drizzt? I had to edit one post 3 freaking times to finish straightening out all the name switches i did. Damn that OP, giving us two contestants with names so similar. I hope that handsome devil gets whats coming to him.

Well yes one of them did manage to land a blow eventually. The Frost Giant I think. Earlier they couldn't touch him. That was early in his career though. By the time he was fighting Obould he was pretty much untouchable by giants.

[dehro]

I will admit that training against wulfgar WOULD help drizzt out with knowing how to handle druss though. Im trying to think if drussever really fought a 2 sword wielding speed demon type.

mmmh he didn't fight Skillgannon. I can't remember though if he..or his incarnated clone, ever fought cloned Decado.
other than them, the closest thing is Noguska,..at least I seem to remember that being the name of the Nadir champion..who fought with 2 blades and was soundly beaten.
nowhere near the talent of Skillgannon, and definitely junior league compared to Drizzt.

[Traab]

Well yes one of them did manage to land a blow eventually. The Frost Giant I think. Earlier they couldn't touch him. That was early in his career though. By the time he was fighting Obould he was pretty much untouchable by giants.

Ok, that pisses me off. It sounds way too much like comic style power creep like where superman goes from "more powerful than a locomotive" to, "So where do you want me to drop off this galaxy im dragging along behind me?" Or maybe its closer to mmorpg where now that im 3 expansions past it, my character can go back and solo old raid content. "Hi there old god! Dont mind me, im just hear to slaughter your eternal ass like a stonetusk boar in stormwind."

[Kitten Champion]

Ok, that pisses me off. It sounds way too much like comic style power creep like where superman goes from "more powerful than a locomotive" to, "So where do you want me to drop off this galaxy im dragging along behind me?" Or maybe its closer to mmorpg where now that im 3 expansions past it, my character can go back and solo old raid content. "Hi there old god! Dont mind me, im just hear to slaughter your eternal ass like a stonetusk boar in stormwind."

Isn't that just typical D&D epic-level hijinks?

You write two dozen books about a single heroic paragon character where the emphasis is almost entirely on action sequences and increasingly impressive feats of martial and physical prowess - it'll become absurd at some point.

[Traab]

Isn't that just typical D&D epic-level hijinks?

You write two dozen books about a single heroic paragon character where the emphasis is almost entirely on action sequences and increasingly impressive feats of martial and physical prowess - it'll become absurd at some point.

True true, its just, hmm, how do I explain why it bothers me in this case? Ok, Ive got it. I am a big fan of the belgariad by Eddings. In it Garion, our main character, manages to increase in skill and power from piss ant peasant who has never handled anything more dangerous than a woodcutters axe, to a god slaying wizard with unimaginable power. His power increases every book practically. And yet that doesnt bug me. Why? Because its covering him constantly learning new skills and polishing them. Someone like druss? Eh, he has been polishing his fighting skills for decades BEFORE he leaves drowland. He isnt specifically learning new combat skills, he is just constantly getting faster and faster and more and more skilled at his sword swinging, apparently without limits. Garion got as strong as he is by first being shown the basics of using a sword, then learning from several different teachers, then figuring out a way to use all those different moves together, then going from random accidental magic, to accepting he is a wizard and learning how to use it. then he jumps up to god slaying levels by looting an orb that is made up of phenomenal cosmic power and pure awesome in equal measure.

Am I making any sense with this? Or am I wrong and Drizzt is kicking ass not because his basic skills keep improving indefinitely, but because he keeps looting more and more awesome gear?

[Forum Explorer]

True true, its just, hmm, how do I explain why it bothers me in this case? Ok, Ive got it. I am a big fan of the belgariad by Eddings. In it Garion, our main character, manages to increase in skill and power from piss ant peasant who has never handled anything more dangerous than a woodcutters axe, to a god slaying wizard with unimaginable power. His power increases every book practically. And yet that doesnt bug me. Why? Because its covering him constantly learning new skills and polishing them. Someone like druss? Eh, he has been polishing his fighting skills for decades BEFORE he leaves drowland. He isnt specifically learning new combat skills, he is just constantly getting faster and faster and more and more skilled at his sword swinging, apparently without limits. Garion got as strong as he is by first being shown the basics of using a sword, then learning from several different teachers, then figuring out a way to use all those different moves together, then going from random accidental magic, to accepting he is a wizard and learning how to use it. then he jumps up to god slaying levels by looting an orb that is made up of phenomenal cosmic power and pure awesome in equal measure.

Am I making any sense with this? Or am I wrong and Drizzt is kicking ass not because his basic skills keep improving indefinitely, but because he keeps looting more and more awesome gear?

Partly it's the better gear, for example the anklets. As well as the better blades that let him chop the giants better or better armor (the first fight he had mundane swords and regular chainmail). There is a level of skill increase however.

[Kyberwulf]

True true, its just, hmm, how do I explain why it bothers me in this case? Ok, Ive got it. I am a big fan of the belgariad by Eddings. In it Garion, our main character, manages to increase in skill and power from piss ant peasant who has never handled anything more dangerous than a woodcutters axe, to a god slaying wizard with unimaginable power. His power increases every book practically. And yet that doesnt bug me. Why? Because its covering him constantly learning new skills and polishing them. Someone like druss? Eh, he has been polishing his fighting skills for decades BEFORE he leaves drowland. He isnt specifically learning new combat skills, he is just constantly getting faster and faster and more and more skilled at his sword swinging, apparently without limits. Garion got as strong as he is by first being shown the basics of using a sword, then learning from several different teachers, then figuring out a way to use all those different moves together, then going from random accidental magic, to accepting he is a wizard and learning how to use it. then he jumps up to god slaying levels by looting an orb that is made up of phenomenal cosmic power and pure awesome in equal measure.

Am I making any sense with this? Or am I wrong and Drizzt is kicking ass not because his basic skills keep improving indefinitely, but because he keeps looting more and more awesome gear?

This.. This is why I have "disdain" for Druss supporters. You make it sound like Druss has to fight for every scrap of experience, has to drag himself though the mud and Fight Oh so epicly hard. Like that matters, at all in a Match up fight. It doesn't matter HOW he came about his experience. Not one bit.

Also, you try to make it sound so much more epic, then just claim all Drizzt has going for him is his equipment. You disparage the character, just because his stories aren't overly dramatic .

[Kitten Champion]

True true, its just, hmm, how do I explain why it bothers me in this case? Ok, Ive got it. I am a big fan of the belgariad by Eddings. In it Garion, our main character, manages to increase in skill and power from piss ant peasant who has never handled anything more dangerous than a woodcutters axe, to a god slaying wizard with unimaginable power. His power increases every book practically. And yet that doesnt bug me. Why? Because its covering him constantly learning new skills and polishing them. Someone like druss? Eh, he has been polishing his fighting skills for decades BEFORE he leaves drowland. He isnt specifically learning new combat skills, he is just constantly getting faster and faster and more and more skilled at his sword swinging, apparently without limits. Garion got as strong as he is by first being shown the basics of using a sword, then learning from several different teachers, then figuring out a way to use all those different moves together, then going from random accidental magic, to accepting he is a wizard and learning how to use it. then he jumps up to god slaying levels by looting an orb that is made up of phenomenal cosmic power and pure awesome in equal measure.

Am I making any sense with this? Or am I wrong and Drizzt is kicking ass not because his basic skills keep improving indefinitely, but because he keeps looting more and more awesome gear?

I'm not sure.

Drizzt is considered a master of his weapons, his ability with the scimitars are peerless almost certainly after Icewind Dale. To Salvatore's credit, Drizzt is constantly seen training or having been training. He's strong and fast in ways which exceed the natural even before the variety of magical enhancements. His dedication to training and the grandiose nature of the setting generally explains how such feats are plausible - particularly after being expanded upon over all those books.

Him having the ability to do those things doesn't really strain credulity in the logic of that universe. It's just that, at some point quite early on, I stopped caring.

[Emmerask]

Ok, that pisses me off. It sounds way too much like comic style power creep like where superman goes from "more powerful than a locomotive" to, "So where do you want me to drop off this galaxy im dragging along behind me?" Or maybe its closer to mmorpg where now that im 3 expansions past it, my character can go back and solo old raid content. "Hi there old god! Dont mind me, im just hear to slaughter your eternal ass like a stonetusk boar in stormwind."

Thats one of the main problems I have with drizzt really, it starts out as fairly realistic and besides the names and places none d&d, even extremely high level drow die with few hits if I remember correctly. (ie first 2 or 3 books).

The first book was actually quite good and enjoyable to read (especially since I did not know much about the underdark).
At some point though for some reason the d&d rulebook kicked in (for whatever reason it was not in effect before guess because drizzt would have died otherwise?).

And from there on out the books became pretty much garbage :-/

So yes if drizzt can by now take a hit from a giants club without being uncomfortable then yes he will win against druss fairly handily.

[Forum Explorer]

Thats one of the main problems I have with drizzt really, it starts out as fairly realistic and besides the names and places none d&d, even extremely high level drow die with few hits if I remember correctly. (ie first 2 or 3 books).

The first book was actually quite good and enjoyable to read (especially since I did not know much about the underdark).
At some point though for some reason the d&d rulebook kicked in (for whatever reason it was not in effect before guess because drizzt would have died otherwise?).

And from there on out the books became pretty much garbage :-/

So yes if drizzt can by now take a hit from a giants club without being uncomfortable then yes he will win against druss fairly handily.

Really that's been consistent since the start. Salvatore's writing got bad for two big reasons in my mind, one how many times are these characters going to come back from the dead? And I don't mean raise dead spells. It's as bad as superheroes really. Two some of the later books get kinda preachy.


And no Drizzt can't currently take a hit from a giant's club and just ignore it. The point is that he no longer gets hit by giants' clubs. He's gotten skilled enough that it takes a truly extraordinary giant to even hit him.

[Cikomyr]

It's become obvious a long time ago that Salvatore did not seemed to enjoy writing the Drizzt books. That, coupled with the contractual obligation forcing him to keep the character alive due to IP rights probably explain why it's past the ridicule at this point.

The first books were pretty good, if a bit bland.

[dehro]

This.. This is why I have "disdain" for Druss supporters. You make it sound like Druss has to fight for every scrap of experience, has to drag himself though the mud and Fight Oh so epicly hard. Like that matters, at all in a Match up fight. It doesn't matter HOW he came about his experience. Not one bit.

Also, you try to make it sound so much more epic, then just claim all Drizzt has going for him is his equipment. You disparage the character, just because his stories aren't overly dramatic .
you are right. it doesn't matter to the Match up arguments. it does however matter a great deal from a literary/readers point of view.
you would be right if you were commenting someone's theory on why one or the other would win in a fight. Methinks that Traab was talking about the style of writing and the progressions of the characters in their respective settings, what he likes about them and what bothers him as a reader...his criticism moving well past the match up.
I'm surprised you didn't realize that.
I am getting the feeling that now you're just playing the Mary, Mary, quite contrary-game for the sake of the game itself.

Anyway, all that comes from this is that sadly this thread has probably turned you off from reading anything by Gemmell ever..which is your loss.
you're missing out.
disdain and fanboyism indeed.. :smallannoyed:

[Traab]

Really that's been consistent since the start. Salvatore's writing got bad for two big reasons in my mind, one how many times are these characters going to come back from the dead? And I don't mean raise dead spells. It's as bad as superheroes really. Two some of the later books get kinda preachy.


And no Drizzt can't currently take a hit from a giant's club and just ignore it. The point is that he no longer gets hit by giants' clubs. He's gotten skilled enough that it takes a truly extraordinary giant to even hit him.

Although to be fair, the fact that he can be hit by a giants club and SURVIVE is already a bit much. But yeah, D&D rules. I mean, iirc, its been awhile, Drizzt got NAILED that one time, and we got plenty of detail about how nasty of an injury it was. Im ok with the literary convention of, "good guy takes a lethal wound, manages to take down one or two more before falling" but that took it to extremes imo. You dont get back up and keep fighting with a shattered rib cage. Especially not on the level he did. Adrenaline can only take you so far while shards of your own body are sawing through your internal organs.

[Kyberwulf]

There are three things wrong with this post, and match up. Also skews peoples perspective.

Drizzt Hate.
Elf Hate
and
Writer Superiority.

People hate on Drizzt because its the popular thing to do. No one in this thread said they Liked him, are particularly cared for him deeply. In fact most people said they would rather Druss win. But Drizzt is what he is. He is a Killer. Trained and born. Even without his gear I would say Drizzt would win.

People also hate on Elves in general. They are just easy to hate. They are written as superior to humans in everyway. Naturally we take that as a bad thing.

Writer Superiority. This what is skewing peoples perspectives and taking any semblance of impartiality. They say Druss would win, because he is Druss. I have yet to hear about anything that Druss did, that makes him Superior to Drizz in any way. From what I read so far and know of Drizzt, Yes they both seem evenly matched, except Drizzt sounds better trained. People are letting the fact that Druss is "Better written" decide he is the better character.
Which also irritates me. People are claiming their opinions on what is better writing, has more weight then anyone else's. When truth of the matter is that its all subjective.

Also, I want to know how many of the Drizzt books you have actually read. I know the Druss supporters are coming from reading all of His series of books. How many of the Drizzt books have you actually read?

[dehro]

There are three things wrong with this post, and match up. Also skews peoples perspective.

Drizzt Hate.
Elf Hate
and
Writer Superiority.

I think you're making a few claims here that you should really substantiate with facts. in my case, you're wrong on 2 accounts.
I don't particularily hate Drizzt. I am aware of the fact that it's the hip thing to do but don't take part in it.
I have never hated elves (or drows).. in fact, the character I have played for the longest time was an elf with drow ancestry and elves are often one of my first 2 choices of character to play.
writer superiority. I'll give you that. to me it's mostly a matter of genre and "where do you come from as a writer and what do you aim to portray" than it is a matter of putting words one way or another in the sentence.
with most of the authors who are published or affiliated with Wizards of the Coast, I cannot shake the feeling that they were primarily just telling is the summary of their gaming sessions when they found people paid money for them to do so. it's interesting and intriguing, and can make for good reading too, but it doesn't captivate me as much as an original setting and a somewhat more refined literary ambition.
as for what I've read about Drizzt.. I am sure that I have read the Icewind Dale trilogy and the Dark Elf trilogy. However I would be unable to tell you much about either (other than what one picks up reading DnD sourcebooks or hanging around in places such as this forum)..because I've mostly forgotten their plots and most of their characters' traits. I have read those books as a teenager and have zero compulsion to pick them up again. this is absolutely a matter of personal taste, but Salvatore's work simply never stayed for me any duration of time after putting down the books.
With Gemmel (and Pratchett whom I prefer to Gemmell) this does not occur. I could not tell you how often I have re-read any of his books, starting with Legend.. and I will probably read them all again sometimes in the near future, because I don't tire of them.

none of this should have a place in this thread, I agree with you on that, but how do you stop that from happening, especially when the match up does bring these comparisons to the front of the debate?

[hamishspence]

I've read every Drizzt book (except the 4E ones) and every David Gemmell book.

While I like both- I do think that the later Drizzt books are rather "phoned in".

[Traab]

There are three things wrong with this post, and match up. Also skews peoples perspective.

Drizzt Hate.
Elf Hate
and
Writer Superiority.

People hate on Drizzt because its the popular thing to do. No one in this thread said they Liked him, are particularly cared for him deeply. In fact most people said they would rather Druss win. But Drizzt is what he is. He is a Killer. Trained and born. Even without his gear I would say Drizzt would win.

People also hate on Elves in general. They are just easy to hate. They are written as superior to humans in everyway. Naturally we take that as a bad thing.

Writer Superiority. This what is skewing peoples perspectives and taking any semblance of impartiality. They say Druss would win, because he is Druss. I have yet to hear about anything that Druss did, that makes him Superior to Drizz in any way. From what I read so far and know of Drizzt, Yes they both seem evenly matched, except Drizzt sounds better trained. People are letting the fact that Druss is "Better written" decide he is the better character.
Which also irritates me. People are claiming their opinions on what is better writing, has more weight then anyone else's. When truth of the matter is that its all subjective.

Also, I want to know how many of the Drizzt books you have actually read. I know the Druss supporters are coming from reading all of His series of books. How many of the Drizzt books have you actually read?


1) I have no hate for drizzt.

2) I have no elf hate either.

3) Better author doesnt matter in this precisely, unless its a complaint about how one author clearly defines things and another leaves them vague enough to allow anything. I dont THINK thats the case here. My biggest complaint is never ending power creep. Maybe if druss had a 50 book series involving him by the end he would be supporting the walls of the nearest fortress so they dont topple, and his axe would be capable of bisecting 6 people per swing, but since it started from the end and worked its way back up to that point, probably not. Too be honest, a part of me wishes more authors would do that. Write the last book first. That way we know what his eventual limit will be, and can enjoy his journey to that point.

4) I have read I believe, the first 4 series. Not books, series, of the drizzt stories before I finally got burned out on them. I can only read a series about the same characters for so long before I burn out. Hell, I stopped reading wheel of time at book 7.

[jidasfire]

Haven't read anything about this Druss fellow, but there is one definite logical fallacy being engaged in by his fans. The idea seems to be that Drizzt must get lots of hits to kill him, while a single hit would kill the elf. Truth is, in real life, even really strong, tough people can die from a single, well-placed strike. Hence, if this mighty axe can fell even powerful people in a single blow, so can Drizzt's super-accurate and sharp blades. Hell, he's cut twin lines across an opponent's throat simultaneously before. However, if you're looking at it from a gaming perspective where characters have hit points, well, Drizzt is pretty high level too. Even if Druss can deal massive blows, he probably can't take out all of Drizzt's hit points in a single shot. I'm not saying which way makes more sense, but frankly, you can't have it both ways to give your guy the win here. Defeats the purpose of a leveled playing field for a crossover fight.

Also, I find that in battles like this, all other things being equal and ambiguous, the winner is usually the fighter who has to deal with crazier, more over-powered stuff on a more regular basis. So yeah, just something to think about.

[Traab]

Haven't read anything about this Druss fellow, but there is one definite logical fallacy being engaged in by his fans. The idea seems to be that Drizzt must get lots of hits to kill him, while a single hit would kill the elf. Truth is, in real life, even really strong, tough people can die from a single, well-placed strike. Hence, if this mighty axe can fell even powerful people in a single blow, so can Drizzt's super-accurate and sharp blades. Hell, he's cut twin lines across an opponent's throat simultaneously before. However, if you're looking at it from a gaming perspective where characters have hit points, well, Drizzt is pretty high level too. Even if Druss can deal massive blows, he probably can't take out all of Drizzt's hit points in a single shot. I'm not saying which way makes more sense, but frankly, you can't have it both ways to give your guy the win here. Defeats the purpose of a leveled playing field for a crossover fight.

Also, I find that in battles like this, all other things being equal and ambiguous, the winner is usually the fighter who has to deal with crazier, more over-powered stuff on a more regular basis. So yeah, just something to think about.

You do have a good point there. The main reason why I personally have made that many attacks versus one claim is because of weapon type and combat style. Druss uses a freaking nasty axe. It doesnt dispense shallow wounds, it tends to cleave and sever things. A scimitar on the other hand tends to be more of a slashing weapon I believe. Now while you are entirely correct that drizzt is more than capable of getting in one hit kills with his weapons, I generally maintain that it would be more difficult and less likely for him to go for a single shot kill than it would for druss due to the differences in fighting styles and weapons.

Plus considering the relative skill levels of the two. Going for fast slit throats is easy against say, brigands and such, against a fellow high end weapon master like druss its not so simple. Once again, not to say he couldnt do it, im just saying that when going against someone like that, its more likely that he would be cautious and go for crippling hits and other such attacks that are easier targets than going straight for the death blow. After all, in my setup, both combatants are well aware their opponent isnt going to be a wimp. This is a duel of champions between armies. There would likely be some testing going on from both before they settle down to serious combat.

The comment about how hard druss is to kill is a bit different. You see, he isnt a game character like drizzt, so he isnt going into combat like he has stats and an hp bar. But when he fights, he tends to eventually get wounded. He takes his licks. But he keeps going. Now Drizzt does that too, but its sort of a, I dunno, a character trait of druss? I dont know if thats the right term, but anyway, a part of his character tends to revolve around him getting hurt and continuing the fight.

In fact, I cant be certain, though I think it went this way, in Legend, Druss has reason to strip down, I think for a doctor visit or something, and they marvel over the sheer number of scars he has all over his body. The FRONT of his body. He has comparatively few on his back. Its used to further his reputation as a man who always faces his fights head on or some such thing. Point is, he is known for taking lots of minor to moderate wounds and keep on fighting. In fact thats one of my biggest reasons for voting on a mutual kill as the worst outcome for druss. His tendency to take nasty hits and retaliate in a rather lethal fashion.

[Cikomyr]

You do have a good point there. The main reason why I personally have made that many attacks versus one claim is because of weapon type and combat style. Druss uses a freaking nasty axe. It doesnt dispense shallow wounds, it tends to cleave and sever things. A scimitar on the other hand tends to be more of a slashing weapon I believe. Now while you are entirely correct that drizzt is more than capable of getting in one hit kills with his weapons, I generally maintain that it would be more difficult and less likely for him to go for a single shot kill than it would for druss due to the differences in fighting styles and weapons.

Plus considering the relative skill levels of the two. Going for fast slit throats is easy against say, brigands and such, against a fellow high end weapon master like druss its not so simple. Once again, not to say he couldnt do it, im just saying that when going against someone like that, its more likely that he would be cautious and go for crippling hits and other such attacks that are easier targets than going straight for the death blow. After all, in my setup, both combatants are well aware their opponent isnt going to be a wimp. This is a duel of champions between armies. There would likely be some testing going on from both before they settle down to serious combat.

The comment about how hard druss is to kill is a bit different. You see, he isnt a game character like drizzt, so he isnt going into combat like he has stats and an hp bar. But when he fights, he tends to eventually get wounded. He takes his licks. But he keeps going. Now Drizzt does that too, but its sort of a, I dunno, a character trait of druss? I dont know if thats the right term, but anyway, a part of his character tends to revolve around him getting hurt and continuing the fight.

In fact, I cant be certain, though I think it went this way, in Legend, Druss has reason to strip down, I think for a doctor visit or something, and they marvel over the sheer number of scars he has all over his body. The FRONT of his body. He has comparatively few on his back. Its used to further his reputation as a man who always faces his fights head on or some such thing. Point is, he is known for taking lots of minor to moderate wounds and keep on fighting. In fact thats one of my biggest reasons for voting on a mutual kill as the worst outcome for druss. His tendency to take nasty hits and retaliate in a rather lethal fashion.

I'd chuck that more on the level of combat IQ druss has; avoid being flanked and surrounded than the size of his cojones.

[Traab]

I'd chuck that more on the level of combat IQ druss has; avoid being flanked and surrounded than the size of his cojones.

Well there is that, plus his near total refusal to ever run away from a fight. But tactically smart is a way to describe him for sure. Though from what I recall its mainly a combo of experience and subconscious ability rather than something like, "Ah yes, when the enemy comes down the hill in this direction it will be the best time to start bartenellis defense to flank them, after they find themselves defending from the front and left we shall use capalinis gambit to crush them against the wall!"

[Anteros]

You do have a good point there. The main reason why I personally have made that many attacks versus one claim is because of weapon type and combat style. Druss uses a freaking nasty axe. It doesnt dispense shallow wounds, it tends to cleave and sever things. A scimitar on the other hand tends to be more of a slashing weapon I believe. Now while you are entirely correct that drizzt is more than capable of getting in one hit kills with his weapons, I generally maintain that it would be more difficult and less likely for him to go for a single shot kill than it would for druss due to the differences in fighting styles and weapons.

Plus considering the relative skill levels of the two. Going for fast slit throats is easy against say, brigands and such, against a fellow high end weapon master like druss its not so simple. Once again, not to say he couldnt do it, im just saying that when going against someone like that, its more likely that he would be cautious and go for crippling hits and other such attacks that are easier targets than going straight for the death blow. After all, in my setup, both combatants are well aware their opponent isnt going to be a wimp. This is a duel of champions between armies. There would likely be some testing going on from both before they settle down to serious combat.

The comment about how hard druss is to kill is a bit different. You see, he isnt a game character like drizzt, so he isnt going into combat like he has stats and an hp bar. But when he fights, he tends to eventually get wounded. He takes his licks. But he keeps going. Now Drizzt does that too, but its sort of a, I dunno, a character trait of druss? I dont know if thats the right term, but anyway, a part of his character tends to revolve around him getting hurt and continuing the fight.

In fact, I cant be certain, though I think it went this way, in Legend, Druss has reason to strip down, I think for a doctor visit or something, and they marvel over the sheer number of scars he has all over his body. The FRONT of his body. He has comparatively few on his back. Its used to further his reputation as a man who always faces his fights head on or some such thing. Point is, he is known for taking lots of minor to moderate wounds and keep on fighting. In fact thats one of my biggest reasons for voting on a mutual kill as the worst outcome for druss. His tendency to take nasty hits and retaliate in a rather lethal fashion.

Despite how Salvatore writes his fight scenes...a scimitar is fully capable of cleaving off limbs and the like...even against someone beefy like Druss.

I don't really like the "he can take a lot of damage" argument that keeps surfacing in favor of Druss. He really can't. He takes a lot of damage by human standards, but it's not like he can just shrug off a scimitar to a vital area...although he may keep trucking for the few seconds needed to guarantee a mutual kill in such a scenario.

[Dienekes]

Despite how Salvatore writes his fight scenes...a scimitar is fully capable of cleaving off limbs and the like...even against someone beefy like Druss.

I don't really like the "he can take a lot of damage" argument that keeps surfacing in favor of Druss. He really can't. He takes a lot of damage by human standards, but it's not like he can just shrug off a scimitar to a vital area...although he may keep trucking for the few seconds needed to guarantee a mutual kill in such a scenario.

A real world scimitar yes. But we're talking Drizzt, so how do his fight scenes normally read?

[Kitten Champion]

A real world scimitar yes. But we're talking Drizzt, so how do his fight scenes normally read?

Usually he's doing over-the-top acrobatics mixed with sword parries or deflections, and ending with an eventual critical strike. Salvatore writes a good fight scene, it's implied to be more of a chess game than a physical contest with him predicting and being predicted.

I don't think Drizzt would bother with flesh wounds if it meant getting in range of an axe, he'd wait at the periphery and observe Druss before moving in for the instant kill when he's exhausted. That or try to appeal to him and settle the battle diplomatically,but that's not related to this thread.

[Cuaqchi]

The thing is even if it's an axe rather than a sword Gemmell writes like he actually knows what weapon fighting is about. The primary point being that the perfect fight has three actions: draw, kill, sheath. Anything more means you aren't perfect. That however ignores the game dynamics of Drizzt's world entirely were you have to chew through the imaginary barrier of "hit points" before you can land a killing blow. A purely literary character can become a master in the proper sense; while, a D&D character requires a detailed choreography of acrobatics and parries.

[Forum Explorer]

A real world scimitar yes. But we're talking Drizzt, so how do his fight scenes normally read?

Well that depends on who is fighting and if Drizzt is trying to take them alive. Against human red shirts? He cuts through them in seconds, but I'd have to actually reread a story to give you more then that. (and get it from the library. I only own some of the older books)

Against an actual opponent? Usually a lot is payed attention to the positioning Drizzit and his weapons are in. And the fight often ends if a single blow. An example off the top of my head was a long duel with Drizzt getting some minor blows to arms or legs, before Drizzt managed to find an opening to stab the opponent in their lung.


The thing is even if it's an axe rather than a sword Gemmell writes like he actually knows what weapon fighting is about. The primary point being that the perfect fight has three actions: draw, kill, sheath. Anything more means you aren't perfect. That however ignores the game dynamics of Drizzt's world entirely were you have to chew through the imaginary barrier of "hit points" before you can land a killing blow. A purely literary character can become a master in the proper sense; while, a D&D character requires a detailed choreography of acrobatics and parries.

It varies, more often then not there is only a single blow. Not counting the times when he's fighting something that can't be killed in a single blow. Also a perfect fight is highly dependent on who you are fighting. In fact I'd argue that if you are managing to kill them in a single blow they are likely so far below your league you are basically killing rookies. Perfection has nothing to do with it.

[Traab]

Despite how Salvatore writes his fight scenes...a scimitar is fully capable of cleaving off limbs and the like...even against someone beefy like Druss.

I don't really like the "he can take a lot of damage" argument that keeps surfacing in favor of Druss. He really can't. He takes a lot of damage by human standards, but it's not like he can just shrug off a scimitar to a vital area...although he may keep trucking for the few seconds needed to guarantee a mutual kill in such a scenario.

I dont disagree with you, a scimitar can in fact sever body parts. The thing is, that takes more effort than a fighter like drizzt tends to put into the fight. You have to put a great deal of force behind a swing to do that because unlike an axe, a scimitar doesnt have all that raw mass behind it to chop deeply with every hit. As for druss not shrugging off damage to vital areas, true. But then again, you stab drizzt in the heart and he will go down as well. With likely the same literary convention of a retributive strike of his own of course. Cant have the hero go down without taking his killer with him. Im pretty sure thats illegal. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

so... in the end much would depend on the lead up to the confrontation.
if they are presented to one another as champions of their "side" of a conflict, it's one thing.
should they just meet somewhere and decide for whatever reason to kill each other, then it might just be that one of them underestimates the foe..which would be his undoing.
Either way you look at it, I don't actually see this as a fight that would last more than a few seconds, whatever the outcome.

[Traab]

so... in the end much would depend on the lead up to the confrontation.
if they are presented to one another as champions of their "side" of a conflict, it's one thing.
should they just meet somewhere and decide for whatever reason to kill each other, then it might just be that one of them underestimates the foe..which would be his undoing.
Either way you look at it, I don't actually see this as a fight that would last more than a few seconds, whatever the outcome.

Heh, I can agree with that. But then, thats the way a real fight would play out normally anyhow. Oh sure watching a movie with a 12 minute duel where the combatants manage to cover 3 football fields and climb from the ground floor to the battlements of a castle makes for awesome high drama. But the odds of two opponents THAT close to each other in skill actually meeting? Nah.

[Chen]

I dont disagree with you, a scimitar can in fact sever body parts. The thing is, that takes more effort than a fighter like drizzt tends to put into the fight. You have to put a great deal of force behind a swing to do that because unlike an axe, a scimitar doesnt have all that raw mass behind it to chop deeply with every hit. As for druss not shrugging off damage to vital areas, true.

The real issue is that in a real fight with sharp weapons and skilled combatants, very few wounds will be superficial like we see in movies or books. Like the absurdity of Strong Belwas in ASoIaF always letting someone hit him first. When muscle is cut it stops functioning properly. Forget about withstanding pain and the like, you're going to be incapable of swinging a two handed axe well at all if you take a moderately deep cut to a bicep or tricep or the like.

[Traab]

The real issue is that in a real fight with sharp weapons and skilled combatants, very few wounds will be superficial like we see in movies or books. Like the absurdity of Strong Belwas in ASoIaF always letting someone hit him first. When muscle is cut it stops functioning properly. Forget about withstanding pain and the like, you're going to be incapable of swinging a two handed axe well at all if you take a moderately deep cut to a bicep or tricep or the like.

Heh, true. Its ok in things like Bleach where Kenpachi lets you have a free shot because odds are good you wont even be able to break the skin, but in a real fight, yeah, free hits died out with the idiots who offered them.

[Dienekes]

The real issue is that in a real fight with sharp weapons and skilled combatants, very few wounds will be superficial like we see in movies or books. Like the absurdity of Strong Belwas in ASoIaF always letting someone hit him first. When muscle is cut it stops functioning properly. Forget about withstanding pain and the like, you're going to be incapable of swinging a two handed axe well at all if you take a moderately deep cut to a bicep or tricep or the like.

I don't think we really can start using real world physics on this, because once we do both Drizzt and Druss become complete idiots for their choice of weapon. Dual-wielding scimitars is idiotic they're too big and much like a case of rapiers would just get in each others way, becoming more of a showy bragging right rather than actually employed seriously in combat. While a double-headed ax doubles the weight of the weapon for no actual gain.

But the heroes in these stories wield them and wield them well. Druss gets hit plenty in his books and keeps on trucking. And apparently Drizzt had his chest caved in from a blow and did the same.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, I think the fact that Druss never runs from a battle, is a good indicator of how much he depends on plot armor. Say what you want about drizzt. At least he isn't written as a juggernaut, he is actually written as if he is mortal. He knows he could be hurt and die.
Another thing. I don't agree with you on having the story start out with the characters death. It takes away any excitement, knowing that no matter what situation he gets put in, he isn't fated to die. No matter what happens around him, he will live on. That makes his skill less impressive too. In all the story involving him, he doesn't survive thought skill. He survived because he is going to die in the future. As much as i Dislike the fact that Drizzt's books got boring after awhile. I am still looking foward to the end. I hope Drizzt goes out like a hero. Maybe after it happens, I will too go back and read the exploits of him, and maybe it will be better because I know how and when it ends. As it stands, I feel Drizzt will win, because he is better trained. Also, as you pointed out, Druss only survived his other books, becuase he wasn't fated to die in them. Take him out of that situation, where anything is possible to him. How long will he truly last if he never runs away, or backs down. How many monsters would probably have killed him of he didn't have the fate of dying in the future.

[Cuaqchi]

And Thor is/was to die from the poison of the world serpent a few short paces after her slays it during Ragnarok. Knowing a character's death really has no bearing on the events preceding the event. Again it is a matter of literary convention, Gemmell writes in the style of classical epics (Iliad, Beowulf, etc.) while Salvatore writes modern fantasy tripe. In the former the character's deeds and motivations are far more important than exactly what steps he takes through a combat. In the later you need to make combat as detailed and exciting as possible to cater to your audience. The result however is that one lacks the material evidence for a match up like this while the other is rife with catchy examples.

Like I said earlier this is like comparing Achilles to the tweaked out 23rd level Super-fighter that greasy kid down the street made. Achilles cannot win for two reasons, he has a defined weakness and his exploits are descriptive in a literary sense rather than a game sense. One can cut a man in twain with a single slice or hit the eye of charging bull from 100yards the other power attacks for 1124 damage and has a +95 to attack. In a discussion like this the later example will ALWAYS win; regardless, of it should actual go.

[Corvus]

Okay, I think the fact that Druss never runs from a battle, is a good indicator of how much he depends on plot armor. Say what you want about drizzt. At least he isn't written as a juggernaut, he is actually written as if he is mortal. He knows he could be hurt and die.


I think you may have gotten that backwards. Druss knows he can hurt and die. He knows that on a few occasions it was the legend of who he was that saved him and saw the other person die. He goes to Dros Delnoch knowing that it will be his final stand. And it was. He dies.

Has Drizzt died? Nope, he is still alive and kicking. He ha something worse than plot armour keeping him alive - he has franchise armour.

[dehro]

kyberwolf.. seriously...shouldn't you read the books before making statements on how knowing the ending affects or would affect the experience of reading them?

when you asked if any of us had actually read the drizzt books and/or liked them, it turned out that most of us actually knew what they were talking about, at least to a degree, and didn't have particular preconceptions if not a judgement based on actually reading the books.
I'm not saying you have to read them, but if you don't, please accept that we who have read and liked them actually know what we're talking about when we say that knowing Druss's fate has in no way diminished the experience, and stop the pointless disparaging.
the more you write, the more you come off as simply having decided you don't like it and wrapping/shaping your arguments around that decision.

[Traab]

Okay, I think the fact that Druss never runs from a battle, is a good indicator of how much he depends on plot armor. Say what you want about drizzt. At least he isn't written as a juggernaut, he is actually written as if he is mortal. He knows he could be hurt and die.
Another thing. I don't agree with you on having the story start out with the characters death. It takes away any excitement, knowing that no matter what situation he gets put in, he isn't fated to die. No matter what happens around him, he will live on. That makes his skill less impressive too. In all the story involving him, he doesn't survive thought skill. He survived because he is going to die in the future. As much as i Dislike the fact that Drizzt's books got boring after awhile. I am still looking foward to the end. I hope Drizzt goes out like a hero. Maybe after it happens, I will too go back and read the exploits of him, and maybe it will be better because I know how and when it ends. As it stands, I feel Drizzt will win, because he is better trained. Also, as you pointed out, Druss only survived his other books, becuase he wasn't fated to die in them. Take him out of that situation, where anything is possible to him. How long will he truly last if he never runs away, or backs down. How many monsters would probably have killed him of he didn't have the fate of dying in the future.

Just because you know when he will die doesnt mean you know how the story will go, other than, "He will personally survive this" You dont know if he will win, lose but escape, get captured and spend a year in a dark black hole in the ground as his body rots from being in a cell barely bigger than a breadbox, (this actually happened fyi) It is also surprisingly easy to forget his "fate" since we briefly hear it mentioned by a fortune teller really early in his first story about how he got his start, then it isnt mentioned again until Legend, the book where he actually DOES die. And that is actually one of the themes of the story, its written AROUND his imminent death and how he handles it.

Knowing he will die doesnt ruin the story, because his death isnt the focus, its how he chooses to live this last battle. Death itself approaches him early in the story and makes him an offer. "Stay home, and I will promise you 40 more years. Your body will wither, your mind will fade, and I will come for you only when you beg for it. Or will you have one last battle? Go to the fortress, i will await you there." (Thats paraphrased, it was actually a really badass scene) In a story thats written around the drama of will he live or will he die, knowing the answer ahead of time ruins things, but in a story like legend, thats not the focus of the story, so its still highly enjoyable.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't care about either of these characters one way or another. I am not letting the writings influence my decision one way or another. You guys want Druss to win because someone "wrote" him better. Not on the actual skill level involved. That's my beef with a lot of people's arguments so far, its all based on who has the most melodramatic story.

Just because you guys are falling for the "epic" writing. Which I hold you to this. I can't find ANYTHING about Druss. anywhere. I tried looking. I find writings about him somewhere, nothing about him. Just some 2 sentence saying he was a character in a book. Not nearly as epic as you guys say. I find things about Drizzt without even looking very hard. Isn't part of being an epic character, having people heard about you? Having your name known?
Most of my friends and I, haven't even heard about Druss. We all read a lot of novels. Various kinds. I asked other people. No one I know has ever heard of Druss. The whole point of being epic is having your name out there, being famous. Most of these other epic heros you cite, Gilgamesh, Hercules, most of the entire Greek pantheon weren't famous cause they where well written. They endured because people wanted to hear about them. Drizzt has more in common with these guys then Druss does.

This is doesn't really matter though. Because this is a match up fight. I am sorry to say, from what you guys are saying, these guys seem evenly matched. Like I said before, it all comes down to the better trained warrior. from that criteria, Drizzt has that over Druss.

Edit, Okay now your changing your story. You said previously, that in the first book you read about him. He dies... and the rest are about his life leading up to that point.

[comicshorse]

Just because you guys are falling for the "epic" writing. Which I hold you to this. I can't find ANYTHING about Druss. anywhere. I tried looking. I find writings about him somewhere, nothing about him. Just some 2 sentence saying he was a character in a book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druss_the_Legend#Characters

That took five seconds of trying



I don't care about either of these characters one way or another. I am not letting the writings influence my decision one way or another.

Then what exactly are you basing your opinions on if not what is written about the characters ?

[Kyberwulf]

Pfft. Wikipedia doesn't count, and a paragraph isn't really telling of a character. I have yet to find anything that really tells about his exploits, at least more then "He is the most AWESOMEST MOST POWERFUL MAN WHO HAS ALL THE HONOR AND RESPECT OF EVERYONE!!!ZOMG!!!!."

I am basing my decision on what I heard about Druss doing, and what I remember Drizzt doing. Not on what was written about them. So far, what I am seeing here, isn't a match up. It's a popularity contest. I am merely standing up for a character. So that he doesn't get railroaded. Druss doesn't really sound that epic on paper. He just seems to fit people's idea of a hero. Also I am not disparaging the character. I am disparaging the people that want him to win just because he is Druss.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Kyberwulf;15586724

I am basing my decision on what I heard about Druss doing, and what I remember Drizzt doing. Not on what was written about them. So far, what I am seeing here, isn't a match up. It's a popularity contest. I am merely standing up for a character. So that he doesn't get railroaded. Druss doesn't really sound that epic on paper. He just seems to fit people's idea of a hero. Also I am not disparaging the character. I am disparaging the people that want him to win just because he is Druss.[/QUOTE]

But you haven't read any of the Druss novels and you made it clear you aren't listening to the views of the people who have posted about him. That doesn't really leave much to base a opinion on.

[Kyberwulf]

Because the views based on him aren't really Stats. They are just accounts on the writing styles mostly. The few times people have talked about his abilites, people say Druss and Drizzt are on par with each other. Also that he wasn't trained in any formal sense. He goes of instinct, apperently. Which Drizzt has too. I said it before this fight seems to go down to the wire. Which is who is better trained.

Seriously, this is Like asking who would win in a Ali V Tyson fight. Then not even talking about the fighting styles. And comparing the times that they lived in. Such as, Ali would fight because of the backdrop of the Vietnam era, and he converted to Islam.

[Traab]

Here are his accomplishments.

1) He is a master at using his weapon

2) He has fought for and against every nation on his world, fighting their mooks, their elite troops, and their champions. His experience against a wide variety of opponents and their varying styles is immense.

3) He has fought monsters called joinings, meldings of animals and people. They tend to be a foot or two taller than a man, and an equal amount stronger and faster.

4) He has fought spell casters on a couple of occasions.

5) He is a literal world champ at bare knuckle fighting. He kicked ass at his worlds olympic equivalent when he kinda sorta accidentally knocked out a competitor in a spar and had to take his place, and at a young age did the same for what amounts to a cage fighting tournament. In other words, he doesnt even need his axe to whip your ass like a red headed step child.

6) We have at least one occasion where he has swiped an arrow out of midair with his axe. That establishes a solid estimate of his own level of speed.

7) His endurance is legendary. In his final war he would fight all day every day. Everyone else gets swapped out for reserves in between waves of attacks, druss tended to stay there and keep slaughtering. This is in his 60s, fairly sure he was even better in his prime. (I believe the docs would force him to rest on some days against his wishes) You cant outlast him in a marathon fight.


I mean, I could list the countries he has fought for and against if it would make you happy, but it wouldnt mean anything as they are just different groups of humans with differing styles of combat that would take far too long to parse out accurately.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay. Something to actually work with.

1. Drizzt mastered multiple weapons. Including his scimitars, he just favors them.

2 & 3. Those sound impressive. While he hasn't fought every nation on his planet. He has faced, Deep Gnomes, Deep Dwarves, Other Drow, Humans, Elves, Displacer Beasts, Demons, Dragons, Giants, Orcs, Goblins, goblinoids.... I mean there is a lot on his list he has faced.

4. Drizzt was trained to battle casters in his training. I assume.

5. While I don't think Drizzt would win in a fist fight. I do believe he wouldn't play that game for long. He would find something with which to arm himself.

6. I do believe everyone on this thread already said Drizzts got the speed and agility on him.

7. I am not sure about the endurence. Someone said Drizzt fought weeks? Besides, how challenging where these battles.

One thing I am wondering. How often was Druss by himself when he did most of his deeds? I know Drizzt only really survived most of his battles, because he had help from other people.

[dehro]

Just because you guys are falling for the "epic" writing. Which I hold you to this. I can't find ANYTHING about Druss. anywhere. I tried looking. I find writings about him somewhere, nothing about him. Just some 2 sentence saying he was a character in a book. Not nearly as epic as you guys say. I find things about Drizzt without even looking very hard. Isn't part of being an epic character, having people heard about you? Having your name known?
Most of my friends and I, haven't even heard about Druss. We all read a lot of novels. Various kinds. I asked other people. No one I know has ever heard of Druss. The whole point of being epic is having your name out there, being famous. so, he's not epic because you and your friends haven't heard of him?:smallconfused: seriously?:smallamused:
yeah..you seem to be failing at understanding what we mean by him being an epic character.. or of what the word Epic means in the context of the Fantasy genre. As a matter of fact, whilst the Drenai saga has epic traits galore, I would rather say that Druss is the poster boy for Heroic Fantasy, next to people like Conan the Cimmerian.

what we don't mean is this:
http://momsgrilledcheesetruck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Legendary-Moms-Grilled-Cheese-Truck.jpg
we don't mean epic in a "omgawd that was awesome, did you see who that was? imgonnahavehimsignmyforeadandneverwashagain"

we mean that he's an epic character because the books that he is written into are written in a style, genre and format that goes back millennia and is explicitly linked to the works of Homer (after all Gemmell did try his hand at telling the story of the fall of Troy too, so really I'm not making things up here).
had Gemmell not been a worldwide known author (and most authors acknowledge his mastery of the heroic fantasy genre) and only been read by his friends and family, Druss would still be an epic character in the literary sense.
We are not "falling for" the genre.. we like it and choose to hold it in high regard. Can you please stop disliking the character or story just because it has an announced ending, when you haven't actually tried reading it? Can you also stop being offhandedly dismissive of the opinion of anyone who isn't bothered by the certain level of plot armor that this generates? It's verging on the obnoxious/insulting.

And no, this has no bearing on the actual match up, it's just relevant in trying to understand the reasoning behind some of your statements (and failing, for my part).
I do believe that we've pretty much all agreed with you in saying that Druss's accomplishments are mostly descriptive and qualitative in nature, and therefore hard to pin down and attach a number to.
Can we please accept that the two characters answer to different literary criteria? They aren't fully comparable at all and therefore any kind of accurate match up IS going to be biased by personal opinion based on reading the books (if you bother to) and actually making a judgement call is very likely going to be affected by the quality of writing and general impression of the character (and therefore be biased, just as you say).
My opinion is that it is a bias that is reasonable and should be accepted as long as it doesn't descend in outright fanboyism. Plenty of people who have read the books agree that Drizzt might win, several argue in favour of the mutual kill. I have no problem with their opinion because it comes from someone who actually has read the books and knows what he's talking about.

Seriously.. on one hand you say you can't find anything about Druss (agreed, there is definitely little out there, in english, compared to Drizzt, but that's kinda obvious if you consider the pervasiveness of WotC on internet) and you refuse to take into account what is said by those who are informed by way of having read the books, on the other hand you take it upon yourself to make all sorts of qualitative statements about the books and how they handle the character and story, and why you dislike the books and the characters, without actually having read the books :smallconfused:

It's like asking me if I prefer living in Italy or South Africa
I've never been to South Africa.. I may have read a thing or two about the country and the living conditions there, but I don't have the first hand experience that is necessary to answer the question.. so I'm not making that call.

As for your question, I seem to remember he stayed behind and tackled a handfull of Joinings by himself to protect a group of refugees, killing them all; and in the second Skillgannon book I do believe he did most of his important battles pretty much alone...but I might misremember that.. been a while since I read those two books.

[Traab]

Okay. Something to actually work with.

1. Drizzt mastered multiple weapons. Including his scimitars, he just favors them.

2 & 3. Those sound impressive. While he hasn't fought every nation on his planet. He has faced, Deep Gnomes, Deep Dwarves, Other Drow, Humans, Elves, Displacer Beasts, Demons, Dragons, Giants, Orcs, Goblins, goblinoids.... I mean there is a lot on his list he has faced.

4. Drizzt was trained to battle casters in his training. I assume.

5. While I don't think Drizzt would win in a fist fight. I do believe he wouldn't play that game for long. He would find something with which to arm himself.

6. I do believe everyone on this thread already said Drizzts got the speed and agility on him.

7. I am not sure about the endurence. Someone said Drizzt fought weeks? Besides, how challenging where these battles.

One thing I am wondering. How often was Druss by himself when he did most of his deeds? I know Drizzt only really survived most of his battles, because he had help from other people.

1) Meh, he is a generalist, not a specialist. Drizzt learned how to use a lot of weapons, druss spent all his life fully mastering his one weapon. Just because someone learned how to play a dozen instruments doesnt mean they can beat me in a musical contest with my single mastered instrument.

2/3) Agreed. The experience level is high on both sides. The thing to remember though is, all that experience drizzt has against random monsters is less valuable because he isnt going to be fighting someone with teeth claws or tentacles. His humanoid combat however, will be very valuable. And he does have alot of it.

4) yes, yes he was. Magical combat is a part of his training. But that means nothing here because druss doesnt have any magic spells to cast. In all seriousness, pointing out that drizzt can fight casters has as much bearing on this contest as saying drizzt is a great gardener. I pointed that bit out for druss because drizzt CAN use a few minor magical abilities, and so with a little magic experience, druss wouldnt be caught so totally flat footed.

5) I agree, my main purpose of mentioning that was to let you know he is more than a barbarian with an axe. Take away his axe and he will beat you to death with his bare hands. He has done that in fights where he got disarmed before. In one battle a guy sacrificed himself by literally throwing his body onto Druss' axe to pin it down while his buddies would come rushing into the gap in the lines. (if you couldnt tell, these guys were fanatics lol) Druss dropped his axe, then proceeded to knock the next guy right the eff out, grabbed him by the neck and crotch and hurled him into his onrushing friends like a spear, buying him time to get his axe back.

6) Agreed, the main issue is by how much. The fact that druss is fast enough to cut an arrow out of mid flight leads me to think he may be fast enough to survive a few exchanges, or at least take drizzt down with him.

7) His battles tended to be split evenly between army versus army where he puts himself in the front line and is a virtual anchor, refusing to fall back until he absolutely has to, fighting off wave after wave of enemies for hours on end. The other half he tends to be fighting, if not solo, then with a small group of people. Like drizzt with his buddy wulfgar and cattie brie. Small group of adventurers dealing with whatever is dumb enough to attack them today. In the case of druss it tended to be large crowds of things like bandits, or enemy army segments, or squads of joinings than things like say, a single insanely powerful monster.

[hamishspence]

I think The Great Bear, a powerful demon in the First Chronicles of Druss The Legend- was one of the most powerful things he fought.

I think he fought some pretty powerful horrors in the Mist, in the Second Chronicles.

[Sholos]

1) Meh, he is a generalist, not a specialist. Drizzt learned how to use a lot of weapons, druss spent all his life fully mastering his one weapon. Just because someone learned how to play a dozen instruments doesnt mean they can beat me in a musical contest with my single mastered instrument.

I wanted to address this one point. Drizz't knows lots of weapons, but has specialized in his scimitars. In addition, he has far more experience than Druss with them, considering that at this point he has well over a century's worth of fighting under his belt.

[Kyberwulf]

Its not like asking you if you prefer living in either places. It's like asking a group of people if they prefer living in either place. Then hearing everyone compare all the good things about one, and not really admit that that place has problems too. Then trash and list all the crappy things about the other. I am merely saying that the place being trashed has other points besides being a crappy place to live.

I am not hating on Druss or the author. I am hating on the fact that people can't seem to let go of things needed to make a decision. I admit to not reading the books. I can only go off what I hear about him. So far, nothing has really stood out with him, to me. He may be well written, he just seems like another stereotypical Strongman Power fantasy. I feel you could drop Conan instead of Druss in here and the outcome would be the same.

I want to say this, for people lauding Druss's world as being set in a more real world. It doesn't matter how real that world is, if your superman. I mean this story seems about the same as dropping Rambo off in a High school paintball fight. Putting Rembrandt in a kindergarten Finger painting class. At least in Drizzt's High magical and High power setting, he needs other peoples help to survive. In the end he seems the more human of the two.

[Kitten Champion]

No, just no. You keep making comments like "The quality of Gemmell's work doesn't matter in a match up, and I don't want to hate on Druss" followed almost immediately by some backhanded attack on Gemmell and Druss.

Gemmell isn't the best writer of fantasy. His prose, dialogue, and setting development can certainly be anemic at times. He displays the qualities of a rough yet exuberant writer. You could, if you're being uncharitable and obtuse, merely write Gemmell off as typical escapist fare. He clearly had a limited knowledge of medieval warfare in Legend, and I'm sure people have dismissed him for his failed pretensions at military fantasy if nothing else.

The plots he uses are simple, very straightforward. The characters are archetypes, Druss is certainly Achilles and Hector wrapped into one aging titan of a man. The world Gemmell builds is not terribly unique or innovative, and...the thing is.. when you put his books down, you feel inspired to do good. To question your own life for what meaning is conveyed therein. That the possibilities available to us are endless if you simply have the will.

Druss is something we can all aspire to be, and not because he can juggle boulders and slay dragons, that's not compelling enough to make a good character. Fighting, failing, and dying knowing that your name will be remembered isn't even compelling enough. The true value of Druss is that he fights against that which he knows he cannot possibly defeat, which no lone man can possibly overcome. Not for the remembrance of his name, or the glory of his cause, but for himself.

What does it mean to die a good death? To live a good life? What does it mean to be a man? What drives us when we inevitably fall to pain, disease, and nothingness?

Druss has the same failings as us, fear, doubt, and despair are all present. However, so too are the traits which make us, all of us, potentially great. Honour, courage, and love, that which forges the heroic tale that resonates with us.

Gemmell prefaces his Drenai Tales telling the reader (listener in my case, I had the audiobook) how he started writing while waiting for the results from a cancer screening. It was his way of confronting his morality, and as a metaphor Legend is pretty obvious. Regardless, the questions he was dealing with are universal in scope and appeal to the best of human nature against the harshest of circumstances, something he explored throughout his literary career with a profundity and joy I've seen few writers match.

No, Gemmell was not the best writer in the fantasy genre, and no, none of this matters with regards to an arbitrary thought experiment regarding the outcome of a fight between fictional characters, but judging Druss as a character based on something as superficial as his hyperbolic martial prowess is just foolish.

[Kyberwulf]

I am not attacking the character, or the author. I am attacking the fact people keep trying to make this a thread about, "my opinion about Epic storytelling is More important then some other author's work." That is all a lot of these posts have been. Opinion stated as fact. Most of the arguments center on the principle that "Epic Storytelling" is the best form of storytelling, and that is why this body of work is better then this other body of work. When it is subjective. I keep having to "attack" the characters and author, because people keep bringing the fluff back into the match up.

I have to assume, to agree with you on the validation of Druss story. Because aside from a couple books. I don't much care for Drizzt. And Twilight would be be a huge step up to most of Salvatore's Drizzt work.

[Traab]

I am not attacking the character, or the author. I am attacking the fact people keep trying to make this a thread about, "my opinion about Epic storytelling is More important then some other author's work." That is all a lot of these posts have been. Opinion stated as fact. Most of the arguments center on the principle that "Epic Storytelling" is the best form of storytelling, and that is why this body of work is better then this other body of work. When it is subjective. I keep having to "attack" the characters and author, because people keep bringing the fluff back into the match up.

I have to assume, to agree with you on the validation of Druss story. Because aside from a couple books. I don't much care for Drizzt. And Twilight would be be a huge step up to most of Salvatore's Drizzt work.

And I just dont understand where this comes from. The only people extolling the awesomeness of gemmels work are the ones responding to your posts about how it doesnt sound so good. All attempts to show why druss would beat drizzt, or at least take him with him, are being based around stuff he has done in his books. When we say, "These are his physical qualities, these are the things he has done, so this seems reasonable."

We are doing exactly what a versus topic should do. In absence of things like say, comics, where we can look at pretty pictures and do pixel by pixel conversions to determine how much physical power something has by how much landscape he blows up, we have to read about his exploits and guesstimate what that translates to in hard numbers. So when someone points out drizzt's insane speed, in return we point out Druss' ability to cut an arrow out of mid flight. It may not be the same, but its sufficient to show druss isnt some slow lumbering barbarian that would easily get carved to death in a gruesome blur.

[Kyberwulf]

Because your saying saying, Best case scenario, Druss wins. Worst case Scenario Druss dies, but still kills the elf in the process. Your precluding the Chance Druss could lose. By losing, I mean he dies and Drizzt walks away. You are trying to create a Kobayashi Maru situation for Drizzt. I am saying, on the other hand, that Drizzt could win or lose. I vote he would win, just becuase he is better trained then Druss. I am not saying that he would kill druss no matter if he lives or dies.

Edit, I went to the Library today to try find a book. I couldn't find any of the Druss story. Although there was something about Troy. I didn't think that had anything to do with this topic though.

[Corvus]

Now you are putting words into people's mouths they didn't say. Reading through the thread it seems as many people, if not more, say Drizzt would win rather than Druss, but that the general consensus is that it is a mutual kill.

The problem arises in that htey come from such vastly different styles. Druss is of the more realistic heroic fantasy genre - you get a significant hit with a weapon they are going to be dead or out of action. And Druss is very good at doing that. In fact the surgeon in Legend (I think it was) made mention of that very fact. He likes Druss because he kills clean and leaves very few wounded. He one-shots most things he takes on.

Drizz comes from an RPG based high fantasy setting. One shots don't happen unless it is agaisnt mooks, or the character uses cheese, rules-lawyering, is a munchkin or powergamer. Normally it requires whittling opponents down, and more so with the tough ones.

[Kyberwulf]

This is silly. You claim that Druss is special because he is the only Superhero in a realistic world. This sounds like you put Rambo in the Hunger Games them applaud him cause he wins. Just because the world is more realistic, doesn't mean the main character is also as realistic.

Also the very same things you claim of Drizzt, the same could be applied to Druss.

You guys keep making it sound like because Druss has a bigger violin playing for his backstory makes it so he would win. Seriously. The title of this thread should have been, "Druss the legend is a better Literary character, and has a better author then Drizzt." Because what is being compared here isn't who is the best fighter.

[comicshorse]

Edit, I went to the Library today to try find a book. I couldn't find any of the Druss story. Although there was something about Troy. I didn't think that had anything to do with this topic though.

I'd recommend 'Legend' as the best of the Druss books and the least open to claims of Druss being too perfect
Though the Troy books are good as well.
Personally I'd say the Rigante series are his best work

[Traab]

This is silly. You claim that Druss is special because he is the only Superhero in a realistic world. This sounds like you put Rambo in the Hunger Games them applaud him cause he wins. Just because the world is more realistic, doesn't mean the main character is also as realistic.

Also the very same things you claim of Drizzt, the same could be applied to Druss.

You guys keep making it sound like because Druss has a bigger violin playing for his backstory makes it so he would win. Seriously. The title of this thread should have been, "Druss the legend is a better Literary character, and has a better author then Drizzt." Because what is being compared here isn't who is the best fighter.

Druss isnt a super hero. He doesnt have an excessive amount of strength speed or really, durability. At least, nothing beyond human levels. At this point i think you are just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. His dramatic backstory isnt what makes him win, it never has been. The things he has done just give us our baseline for comparison. Druss has done this, drizzt has done that, lets compare and contrast. I really dont get what you are expecting, as you seem to be constantly inventing reasons to complain and ignoring all the proof that you are wrong.

[Kyberwulf]

Surviving a battle for days without rest? While the mere mortals have to be traded out? That isn't a super power? Figthing Apex Predators and winning isn't a superpower?

Say what you want about the setting being Highly Magical. Despite being set in a "realistic world." Druss's ability to survive by himself, seems overpowered. At least Drizzt need other peoples help to survive. To me, that makes Drizzt's world more realistic, despite having magic in it.

Also, I tried looking in the used bookstore. They didn't they have any there either.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, now he is just a good fighter?

Which is it, Is he an in exhaustible unstoppable Juggernaut, able to slay armies by the nation?

Or is he just a human who is good at fighting, and has a following?

[comicshorse]

Surviving a battle for days without rest? While the mere mortals have to be traded out? That isn't a super power? Figthing Apex Predators and winning isn't a superpower?


No that isn't. Thats having peak human stamina, loads of training and a refusal to give in.
Similarly fighting Joining isn't a super-power either. Its being skilled and battle hardened enough to more than compensate for their advantage in strength and size.


Which is it, Is he an in exhaustible unstoppable Juggernaut, able to slay armies by the nation?

I really don't think anybody said that

[dehro]

I am not attacking the character, or the author. I am attacking the fact people keep trying to make this a thread about, "my opinion about Epic storytelling is More important then some other author's work."

I'm sorry but no. I don't know that I can point out the exact post in which this started, but I'm pretty sure you're putting things upside down here.
I seem to remember that you are the one who started being dismissive of the character because you didn't like what you heard about the plot being somewhat announced and giving him plot armor, so bringing a criticism purely based on the genre and a literary convention which you disliked.
You are the one who started putting down the books and most people (I for one) reacted to that because you seemed to fail to grasp the grounds on which arguments such as "he's the best there is in his setting" did carry some weight. If you had just said "in my opinion the best there is in a lower power setting is less than the best there is in Drizzt's setting" and left it at that, nobody would have reacted as much as people have. Others have done so and not sparked the controversy you seem to have elicited; but no, you were very dismissive/disparaging of the books and the character, for having come to the conclusion you didn't like the impression the books left with you.
Some of us may be Druss fanboys, but I don't think any of us said anything stronger about Drizzt's books than "I don't particularly like them and think Gemmell is the better writer"..and at least that was after actually having read the books.
You on the other hand have been doing nothing but putting the books and the character down without really being qualified to do so, simply based on a remote impression.
This tends to happen every time someone who has no knowledge of one side of a Vs thread tries to intervene (not just you of course).
So, yes, I would argue that the opinion of someone who knows both sides of an argument is more relevant than that of someone who does not.
I'm surprised that you don't think this is the case.

Druss's ability to survive by himself, seems overpowered.
Again, read the book. Putting it bluntly, it seems to you because you simply don't know what you're talking about, it may still seem to you after you've read the book, if you go at it unbiased, but at least then your argument would hold more weight.
Does Druss being "overpowered in his setting" carry weight within the Vs debate at all? Probably not and if it does, it's minimal. However it is an example of the kind of remarks by you that have stirred people up because they make it clear that you don't understand the character and are wilfully nitpicking on every argument, without however having the basics to do so.

[Traab]

Surviving a battle for days without rest? While the mere mortals have to be traded out? That isn't a super power? Figthing Apex Predators and winning isn't a superpower?

Say what you want about the setting being Highly Magical. Despite being set in a "realistic world." Druss's ability to survive by himself, seems overpowered. At least Drizzt need other peoples help to survive. To me, that makes Drizzt's world more realistic, despite having magic in it.

Also, I tried looking in the used bookstore. They didn't they have any there either.

He slept at night. He chooses to fight all day despite how dangerous it is and exhausts himself terribly because he is a symbol to the defenders. He has the reputation (mostly deserved but still somewhat exaggerated) as being that unstoppable juggernaut. Just by him fighting there its a morale boost to the defenders, "as long as druss is here, we cant lose" that sort of thing, and Druss knows this. The fact that he is also his worlds greatest fighter is all that lets him survive when he is half dead on his feet from exhaustion. After all, even tired, bruce lee could probably beat ten flavors of hell out of an average martial artist.

[Kyberwulf]

First off, I am not being dismissive towards the character or the author. If anything I am being dismissive towards letting the literary writing style dictate an edge or perceived edge in combat.

It begins by putting Druss on a pedastal.

Druss The Legend: Druss the Legend is a hero embodying virtue, courage, honour, chivalry and strength of character. Druss is the grandson of Bardan the Slayer, a psychotic madman driven insane by the demon residing within his cursed axe, Snaga the Sender. Druss is described as a physically imposing man, immensely strong but also possessing great speed and dexterity. He has a hard, flat face, black hair and a thick, black beard and pale blue eyes. Despite his initial lack of formal combat training, he becomes known as a fearsome warrior who has never been bested in single combat. He wears the armour and weapons of his grandfather, which includes a black leather jerkin with silver steel pauldrons, black leather gauntlets with reinforced steel plates covering the knuckles and forearms, black leather boots and a black pot helmet with a silver axe motif on the brow flanked by small silver skulls.

and then totally dismissively goes into this.

Drizzt Do'Urden: Drizzt has had much training not only in Menzoberranzan at the Melee-Magthere and a few weeks at the Sorcere as well as training from his father but from Montolio deBrouchee or "Mooshie" his ranger mentor if it weren't for Mooshie, Drizzt might not have lived long on the surface world .
Then it goes into, all Drizzt is is his magical weapons.

Then it goes into this little, realistic human discriptionj.
Me personally? I vote for Druss. At best a mutual kill. Drizzt is ludicrously fast and skilled, this is true. Druss however is also deceptively fast, and as the description says, he has never lost in single combat. For those who dont know, Druss does die in one of his stories, however, the way he dies just reinforces how unstoppable he is.

And then apparently he is invincible enough to do this, and dismiss any chance drizzt might actually be strong enough or fast enough to hit more then once and deal enough damage, if given the chance.

True, drizzt does have the raw speed advantage, however, druss aint exactly slow himself, and to get in range with his scimitar, drizzt will have to get in range of druss's axe. One of his other advantages is a huge innate ability to form tactics on the go, and an awareness of whats going on around him at all times which makes it incredibly tough to catch him off guard in a fight. Its entirely possible dross would accept a slash from one of drizzts scimitars just to have the opening to cleave him from crown to crotch with that monstrous axe of his.

Again more pedestal hoping to give him an edge in a match up

Druss is the guy you want fighting along side you. Bar none, out of every hero and big name in the entire series, if you could pick just one of them to stand by your side in a fight to save the world, or even to protect your friend, you would pick Druss, because he flat out doesnt lose. Even dead he still cast a shadow of power and fear over the men who had managed to kill him. At his own damn funeral people kept expecting him to rise up once more and continue fighting. And if you read the rest of the story, you understand, in a way, they were RIGHT to fear that happening. If you look up the word indomitable in the dictionary, you will see his face as the only definition.

There is a lot more I could go around and quote. I don't really want to though.

You can't have it both ways. You describe him as an unstoppable, will fill rage monster, that can't ever die in battle Unless it scrippted.

Or he is just a normal human who while being impressive. Is still more realistic, and more vulnerable, then someone who needs other people and actually needs equipment to survive.

[Traab]

blah blah blah, apparently you seem to enjoy taking posts out of context even after being repeatedly clarified. Im done wasting my time defending myself to you.

[Kyberwulf]

You guys are telling me to buy into a legend, and that legend will kill Dizzt. Wither or not Druss Lives or dies, and I am not buying it.

I am sorry, either Druss is a Legend that cannot be killed, or he is a man. I am not saying this to trash talk a character or a book. I am saying you have to choose one or the other for this match up. I am saying you have to take plot armor and Mary sueness out of the fight. Base on that, and what you guys tell me. Drizzt has survived more on skill and ability. Taken from the fact that he needs equipment and allies to survive. Obviously Druss is going to win, if you let him shrug off hits and allow will power to make cut muscles and torn ligments to work.

[Forum Explorer]

Anyways I don't see how there is a consensus that it would be a mutual kill. I still think that Drizzt would flat out win. As I think Drizzt is fully fast enough to duel until he can land a killing blow, and then dodge the counter swing.

I mean, compare Druss to Oboald. Remember that Drizzt basically won that duel and wouldn't have had any problems in the first duel if Oboald didn't have his armor that blocked literally everything. Well and if Oboald wasn't tough enough to get stabbed in the chest and just walk it off. (To be fair he's basically the Chosen One of the Orc gods by that point.)

[Barmoz]

It's a very simple logical proof:

Drizzt = sad panda
Pandas know kung fu
kung fu > Druss

[Traab]

It's a very simple logical proof:

Drizzt = sad panda
Pandas know kung fu
kung fu > Druss

See now finally we have a reasonable argument. But I want to debate this point, you see,

Jeet Kune Do is > Kung Fu

Bruce Lee is a master of Jeet Kune Do

Druss is a master of unarmed combat like Bruce Lee


Therefore Druss is > Drizzt.

[Kyberwulf]

Again, your asking us to buy into a legend.

Jeet Jun Do is just another fighting style. It all depends on the practitioner. Saying all of Jeet Kun Do could defeat ALL of Kung Fu is a little broad.

Again, Bruce lee was a lot of hype. I don't doubt he was good at kicking ass.
However there are a lot of reports where he lost fights. Especially in China.

Saying Druss is the equal to someone like Bruce Lee without having any way to compare any of the fighting style of Druss is just speculation.

Edit. Well to be fair, Jeet kun Do isn't a fighting style. It's more of a way of thinking. You take what is useless in a way of Fighting, take it out. Then you incorporate it into your set of moves.

[Traab]

Again, your asking us to buy into a legend.

Jeet Jun Do is just another fighting style. It all depends on the practitioner. Saying all of Jeet Kun Do could defeat ALL of Kung Fu is a little broad.

Again, Bruce lee was a lot of hype. I don't doubt he was good at kicking ass.
However there are a lot of reports where he lost fights. Especially in China.

Saying Druss is the equal to someone like Bruce Lee without having any way to compare any of the fighting style of Druss is just speculation.

Edit. Well to be fair, Jeet kun Do isn't a fighting style. It's more of a way of thinking. You take what is useless in a way of Fighting, take it out. Then you incorporate it into your set of moves.

See? You even admit it. Jeet Kune Do is all about being superior to other forms of martial art. Two guys, equally skilled in their field, jeet or kung, jeet wins by default because he got rid of the weaknesses and openings that a style like kung fu has. Druss wins, because jeet is better. It doesnt get any more open or shut than that.

[Kyberwulf]

So you admit I am right. Two guys equally skilled. The guy with the Better training wins. Such is the case I have been making with Druss vs. Drizzt.

[Traab]

So you admit I am right. Two guys equally skilled. The guy with the Better training wins. Such is the case I have been making with Druss vs. Drizzt.

Except in this case its the equally skilled with a better style, and as jeet is > kung, Druss is therefore > Drizzt. Ah I love it when the evidence is that clear cut.

[Kyberwulf]

No in this case, Druss has no training at all. you said it yourself. He beat up Olympic style boxer with no training at all. Drizzt Training. So in this case. Drizzt is the Jeet Kun Do master, and Druss.. doesn't have any training at all.

[DeusMortuusEst]

There's a difference between having trained a lot and being skilled at something. Some people train and train but are still not as good as someone who has a natural understanding for a specific skill.

Just pointing that out.

[dehro]

this entire line of debate is flawed by the notion that one style is better than the other, something even Bruce Lee denied..and which is at the very center of why he developed JKD in the first place.

[Fan]

Just stepping in to say, I've still seen nothing that puts Druss at near mach speeds.

Dude can't keep up with Drizzt in his wildest dreams, regardless of how deceptively fast he is, and this is already disallowing that the fight might last long enough for it to become dusk where Druss's human senses become infinitely inferior compared to Drizzts.

This is disallowing the instant archery kill with Heartseeker (the bow he claims after Cattie Brie's death. So yes, it is standard equipment.) that is already given Druss in the OP.

This is disallowing that Drizzt is canonically stronger than even famed human strongmen. Wulfgar being an exception.

As for the style argument, having no formal training means that Druss has also never worked out his bad habits and has gone purely on animal instinct and relied on his HUGELY superior physical attributes when compared to a natural human being. Not that his own style is superior.

To compare Druss's lack of training, and natural ability, to Jeet Kune Do is borderline offensive, especially to imply the style without style is even comparable to someone without training.

What Druss is, is an accomplished street fighter, nowhere near an actual martial artist in terms of raw skill.

He has ability, he has talent, and Druss has the skill of a man the veteran of a dozen LARGE battles.

But he has never waded through a horde of superhumanly strong fully armored beings and come out without so much as a scratch, he has never fought a literally invulnerable opponent and come out on top.

And Drizzt is STILL so much massively faster that it's ridiculous to assume that Druss could even keep up with him. The entire fight Drizzt will be barely in vision due to how much faster he is than human perception. This isn't swing speed, it's his ability to see his opponent, and this is a feat drizzt has both in the books and in the comics of the same event.

[dehro]

one notion I don't really agree with is this emphasis on "he hasn't been trained".
you'd think that 40+ years of moving from one war to the next (and surviving) would compensate for any lack of formal training.
yes, Drizzt has had both warfare and training, but that's not quite what I'm getting at, I'm not interested (anymore) in the match up..
I just want to point out that most people I know who have had formal training at something still have to go learn the job from someone who has been doing it for a while.. and not always does that person have a formal training of his own.
simply put, formal training is in no way a guarantee of better results at something than actually practicing it for decades.
Neither training and experience are quantifiable values.
saying "I've trained for 3 years so I'm going to beat him because he's trained only for 6 months" makes 0 sense. you can scale this up to 100 years vs 30, but the result is the same, especially when you apply it to 2 extraordinary people who each in their own way represent a peak situation. It is a meaningless argument.
as is the whole JKD thing.

[Traab]

I just want to know when the hell this went from a joke response made to a joke response and turned into something serious. And no, Drizzt DOESNT have the bow. I listed equipment of note at the start and the bow wasnt part of it.

Back to the silly, FEH! Bruce developed jeet kune do out of his years of martial arts experience, Druss became an unstoppable juggernaut who developed his own fighting style out of years of experience in warfare. The two are practically BROTHERS!

[dehro]

I just want to know when the hell this went from a joke response made to a joke response and turned into something serious. And no, Drizzt DOESNT have the bow. I listed equipment of note at the start and the bow wasnt part of it.

Back to the silly, FEH! Bruce developed jeet kune do out of his years of martial arts experience, Druss became an unstoppable juggernaut who developed his own fighting style out of years of experience in warfare. The two are practically BROTHERS!

true.. but Druss would beat Bruce Lee
(and now let's watch how long it takes for this to take off in an entirely new direction, lol)

[Traab]

true.. but Druss would beat Bruce Lee


No way! Bruce is WAY too fast for Druss to handle! Heh, couldnt resist adding my own.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Just stepping in to say, I've still seen nothing that puts Druss at near mach speeds.

Dude can't keep up with Drizzt in his wildest dreams, regardless of how deceptively fast he is, and this is already disallowing that the fight might last long enough for it to become dusk where Druss's human senses become infinitely inferior compared to Drizzts.

This is disallowing the instant archery kill with Heartseeker (the bow he claims after Cattie Brie's death. So yes, it is standard equipment.) that is already given Druss in the OP.

This is disallowing that Drizzt is canonically stronger than even famed human strongmen. Wulfgar being an exception.

As for the style argument, having no formal training means that Druss has also never worked out his bad habits and has gone purely on animal instinct and relied on his HUGELY superior physical attributes when compared to a natural human being. Not that his own style is superior.

To compare Druss's lack of training, and natural ability, to Jeet Kune Do is borderline offensive, especially to imply the style without style is even comparable to someone without training.

What Druss is, is an accomplished street fighter, nowhere near an actual martial artist in terms of raw skill.

He has ability, he has talent, and Druss has the skill of a man the veteran of a dozen LARGE battles.

But he has never waded through a horde of superhumanly strong fully armored beings and come out without so much as a scratch, he has never fought a literally invulnerable opponent and come out on top.

And Drizzt is STILL so much massively faster that it's ridiculous to assume that Druss could even keep up with him. The entire fight Drizzt will be barely in vision due to how much faster he is than human perception. This isn't swing speed, it's his ability to see his opponent, and this is a feat drizzt has both in the books and in the comics of the same event.

I am sure that Drizzt has not fought any battles which I am now going to have to quote you here since your claim of the amount of battles of Druss is obviously the one we have to assume is correct since you said so...

which lasted several DECADES...

A couple of dozen battles in 40+ years???

In an age where there was near constant warfare in the regions Druss travelled in?
And where he fought on pretty much ALL of the conflicts of any note in that time period?

The SKIRMISHES alone would number in over several DOZEN and this is the ones that are MENTIONED in the books, which incidently Kyberwolf has claimed are NOT a legit source of information on what Druss can or cannot do and if Kyberwolf wants me to go and get all of his quotes where he dismisses the facts given in the books, tells everyone that he did not read the books, does not care for the books and has no intention of reading the books while calling everyone fanboys when they try and mention any of the facts that happened in the books just because he does not like that it is in the books he never read and he did not accept as cannon since it is in his eyes too powerful without even looking at all the problems Druss has had.

He even had problems with his heart at one point and still fought in a battle until he collapsed making everyone wonder how he managed to kill anything in the state he was in.
Druss is that stubborn.

As for Drizzt...unless you are now going to dismiss the actual STATS he has because surprise, surprise he has been statted out, you cannot say that his stats are massively stronger or fast enough that he moves at MACH speeds.
Drizzt is incredibly fast...moving at MACH speeds is NOT something that Drizzt can do.
To be moving at MACH speeds we are talking over 6100 feet per round movement...given that the only place Drizzt has a move off over more then 40 is in the Candlekeep variant for his stats (and even there he has 'merely' 70 feet movement, times 4 for sprinting...) we can pretty much assume that he does NOT have mach speed or even anywhere near mach speed.
Stats for Drizzt...Str 13, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14. Height 5 ft. 4 in.

WHERE is that MASSIVELY stronger then strongmen?

I think I can get you over 200 NPC's for forgotten realms which are human and have higher strength then that.

That is as bad as the claims that people saying Druss might surprise Drizzt in a fight have said things like lifting up mountains, regenerates, or any of the half a dozen super powers he has been attributed by Druss defends according to Kyberwolf yet when you check EVERY SINGLE post the ONLY person to have made these claims is ...Kyberwolf.

Druss is far more likely to loose then to win BUT he might surprise Drizzt and there is some good odds that he might take Drizzt with him when he dies because it is the way he has fought before.
Against lesser champions he survived doing this but Drizzt would land a killing blow quite likely as Drizzt is far better then most of the people Druss has had to fight with (if not all of them).
Now keep in mind that most if not all of the proponents of Druss have mentioned that Drizzt is likely to win and that the only thing that could be likely to happen is that Druss might take Drizzt with him in the beyond.
Note the operative use of the word MIGHT.

As for Druss beating someone like Bruce Lee, canonically he faced another boxer in one of the books and he, Druss the Legend, had to admit that he was very, very unlikely to beat this boxer since he was simply better and faster and since Druss would never cheat in a fight like that there would be no chance almost for Druss to win.
Speed, skill and knowledge would be enough to overcome him if it is substantially ahead of him.

In this fight the stats run as follows:

Strength Druss, no contest
Dexterity Drizzt no contest whatsoever
Constitution Druss by a substantial amount
Intelligence Drizzt
Wisdom about even, perhaps a slight edge in some specific fields to either of them
Charisma Drizzt by a substantial amount.

If Drizzt plays it smart (and he should given the scenario) he will not try and play around with Druss as that would be a quick way to get yourself killed.
Drizzt should win, but he might get killed too if he is only a little unlucky or Druss is a little bit lucky.

Keep in mind that given all the descriptions of Druss that he does have Improved Initiative but of course his dexterity Is substantially lower then that of Drizzt.

If Drizzt plays around he will get outthought and will die fast, if not he should win.
He might still die while killing Druss.

[Traab]

I dont think drizzt has an edge in charisma. Its a whole part of the persona of druss. Everyone knows him. He can terrify or inspire entire armies just by looking at them, depending on which side he is on. He is like a living avatar of inspiration and morale. Im not even sure how many times druss has delivered a rousing speech and had his entire army behind him chanting his name. If thats not epic levels of charisma then what is?

[Kyberwulf]

Comparing D&D stats to someone who doesn't have those stats don't point out. Also most of Drizzts stats change from sourcebook to sourcebook. Since both characters don't have stat blocks. Drizzt's can't really be used.

There is a difference between using books as information, and using them as propaganda.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Ah, but Traab keep in mind how many times he has angered people on his own side or annoyed them.

The amount of times he has said something and gotten his enemies angry with him.
Not terrified them as such but just angry.

All of the examples given can be explained by sheer skill levels in Intimidation or judicious application of the Leadership feat combined with some other skills.

As for the stats...I took the highest stats found for him...
And the most recent ones to boot.

Then I went and looked at the D&D stats and checked them against examples of what Druss has done.
Comparing examples of the stats at the appropriate levels you can work out approximate stat levels.
Lifting a 6 foot man off the ground which is wearing armour?
You can quite easily put a ball park figure on that as we know what D&D says you can deadlift at the different levels of strength.


As for propaganda, inventing things people supposedly have said what is that?
You made claims that people had said very specific things that are not anywhere in the posts you responded to and you are now claiming the books are used as propaganda?
You have also said you don't care what it says in the books and that it does not matter what it said in the Druss books but Drizzt book references are fine.
And don't say you did not do that, you made references to equipment in the books that Drizzt had.
If you cannot use the books Drizzt has none of this equipment as the rules should be applied equally to both parties.

[Kyberwulf]

See now saying something like, he lifted a guy up who was in full plate. That is giving evidence of something. More then just saying, "He was in the middle of a battle field for days without taking a break." "He was so unstoppable that even his death showed how unstoppable he is."

Using stats from the game world of a setting isn't fair. Because the stats on the character have to be "balanced" or have the semblance of not being overpowered. How many times have you looked at any character created from a movie or book, and thought. Huh they aren't as impressive as they seemed. For example, Drizzt swings his weapons and hits more times then mechanically is possible in a D&D game, where they belong. Unless the DM was giving out way to many cool points to the attack. How many Feats should Drizzt have, based on just how good he is with duel-wielding this scimitars in battle? Not only that how far he goes down the cleave tree.

You should further stat out Druss then, if your going to keep going that route. Including his gear. Which... Doesn't really conform to anything in D&D. Maybe, leather armor. It sounds like it isn't magical, just descriptive. Also, I notice Drizzt lacks any armor described. I am sure he ran around in Mithril something. What would you say his axe is in Magical terms? Are you going to go through all of Druss's books and use every time he does something that corresponds to a feat, add that to his feat tree? thereby pumping up his Level into the epic?

I didn't claim anything. I took what people said, and took them to the extremes they implied it meant in this context.

And I said, I don't care how descriptive the actions where in Druss's books. I asked them to show me the things he actually did. The fact he "Heroically" did this, or "valiantly" stood against so and so doesn't matter. The fact that Druss is the epitome of humans in his world, has no baring in a match up. Just because he is well liked by both Every character in his book, and some of the readers, doesn't give him an edge in a match up.

People took this Match up, and turned it into a popularity contest of both characters and writing style. Which is what I don't like.


Edit. I don't know if I should take this site seriously.. but
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_Do%27Urden
I haven even less respect for Drizzt. Spoilers. He gets killed by an ex girlfriend. Huh. I always thought he would die in battle.

[Deadmeat.GW]

I would if I could find my books, I am missing 6 or 7 books that deal with Druss from when I moved.

But as an example, when Druss was in his late fifties he picked up a big (described as big, no other references but given that Druss was considered to be massive I am assuming this man was not as big as Druss himself) young man by his leg and held him with one hand above a sheer drop from a cliff face when the young man (mid to late twenties) when that man was joking so his arse would be closer to his face as he claimed he was getting hard of hearing in his old age.
At the time Druss was actually ill and not at the peak of his form plus he was in his late fifties...he was behaving like someone who had the symptoms of the onset of a heart attack.
This action did take his toll on Druss as it was a strain on him.

Given this quite descriptive it gives an idea how strong Druss actually was.

When Skillgannon found the Druss clone later he found a young man who extremely strong but inexperienced and not really very good at battling.
All power but no experience and no skill, just raw brute strength.
This clone is shown to struggle with a joining in unarmed combat and to be slowly loosing ground to the joining as he is strong but not as strong as the joining.

Keep in mind that joinings are magically bonded humans, usually people who are criminals, with large prey animals or big dangerous animals such as tigers, lions, bears and the like.
They are not the same, and their stats diverge substantially from each other.
Some joinings being substantially bigger or stronger or faster.
The base human skills also matter, one of the joinings who used to be a soldier before he got fatally wounded in joining form was bigger, faster and far more cunning and skilled at combat the most if not all others.
The only thing that was a given is that joinings are in general massively bigger then humans.
Even really big people like Druss were far smaller then a joining and they had a massive boost in endurance and strength.
However not in dexterity.

Several times joinings are described as being able to lift a horse of the ground in a charge or to casually lift a fully armoured man of the ground to tear him apart.
As such you can put the joinings strength as somewhat above Druss at minimum and substantially above Druss on the bigger ones.

I would go for the following for Druss as D&D stats, keep in mind I am short some of the books.

Str 19 (he has lifted fully armoured people above his head who were as big as him, meaning that we are looking at a man weighing in 250 to 270 pounds in full armour, 40 pounds since it was more like chainmail, leather and a breastplate, with a light travelling pack in the region of something like 10 to 20 pounds. In other words a base of 300 pounds minimum and the man was wearing a sword and a dagger pushing him easily over the 300 mark into strength 19 and potentially reaching over 350 pounds but for our purposes we will stick to a 'mere' 19 strength...which is still very, very impressive for an old man past his physical prime)
Dex 15 (he was deceptively fast but not as fast as some of the master swordsmen, however all of the master swordsmen dreaded fighting him since his fighting style and the fact that he was quite fast meant he might be able to catch them before they could reposition themselves. The arrow cut in flight I would put that under experience since if he could not see the archer he did not do that kind of thing so I would put that under Deflect Arrows as a feat. On the top of that Druss has been shown to anticipate faster peoples actiosn and was able to intercept their blows or evade them due to for all intends and purposes his experience as a front line battle soldier so I would put that down to him having Improved Initiative, due to years of experience in the full press of melee where you face multiple opponents. Also, I am not sure but in all of the books with mass battles he is very, very rarely taken by surprise or caught flat footed by people trying to attack him from behind so I would say he has an ability like a high tier Uncanny Dodge as he is nearly impossible to flank and yes people have tried on more then a few occasions to rush him from all sides but he ends up fighting them as if that made no difference to him).
Con 18 (Druss on several occasions outfought people for hours on end as stated in the books, managed in one of the books to jog to a battlefield from a distance that was several hours away and since there is no real way to work this out I was going by a auto success ruling on a forced march calculation as the longest Druss in any of the books I read has marched seems to amount to approximately from dusk until just after dark during spring so I am saying from about 5am until about 9pm. Since this did not bother Druss but the rest of his party was starting to fall asleep on their feet. I am assuming he could have pushed harder and it was therefore inside his comfort zone to do so, ergo given his other feats of endurance and his descriptive saying he was tough as nails resulting in an 18 in Con. Not yet into the fantastical but definitely very much out of the ordinary for a human.)
Int 12 (maybe even a little higher since he has shown plenty of tactical acumen in battle but that could be skill based so we will go with a bit above average for a human since that seems to be where he was working, he ran into far more intelligent people but he himself was not stupid.)
Wis17 (he regularly surprises people with his insight, he was extremely stubborn and very, very strong willed plus he lived through soo much for soo long battling things that he picked up a great many 'hearth wisdoms' which he happily passed on to others.)
Cha13 (he would often go out of his way to be contrary to people who did things he did not like, he was blunt to the point of being actively rude with some people but he could be charismatic with children and with friends. He was a fatherly figure at some points to new recruits to give them a little bit more self confidence. To be honest I think I need to revise my earlier stement that Drizzt is more charismatic by a substantial amount to Drizzt is a bit more charismatic.)

Druss wore a steel skull cap which was very sturdy and had deflected blows from swords and bolts before, a very good quality leather jerkin with some extra straps and bits (I would say about the equivalent of studded leather) and some metal reinforced plates in specific locations.
He has used a crossbow before but he is not really found of it (probably can ignore that since he does very rarely have it and never really carries one around as part of his own kit).
His axe, Snagga the Sender is a cursed artefact that Druss exorcised by sheer strength of will and Druss sned the demon that was in into to next realm. It is lethal, heavy and razor sharp with no sign of dulling or breaking over several millennia.
It was still considered to be magical but no longer cursed as Druss could hurt demons with it and normal weapons were unable to harm demons.
So in short...

Gear, studded leather, light travel pack and an artefact level axe that ignores damage reduction of major demons which tends to cause crippling damage on any blows.

Even when the clone used it and he was far less skilled then Druss to the point that when Druss takes over the clones body to save the young mans life in battle that everyone immediately spotted the difference.
Including the enemies who became terrified of the Deathdealer that Druss was.

Feat wise Druss has a lot of feats making him a very, very peculiar character if we want to put him in a D&D campaign.

Advanced Uncanny Dodge, he cannot be flanked and retains his dex bonus v invisible enemies (he has fought shades and won so yes, he has fought near invisible creatures before) and he cannot be caught flat footed.

Deflect Arrows, he has cut an arrow down that was shot at him point blank with his axe. I would say that this is only possible when he wields Snagga.

Defensive Roll, surprisingly he has evaded deadly strikes by dodging them at the last second while he was severely injured.

Crippling Strike, with Snagga he would either cripple or kill people he struck.

Tracking, he has tracked enemies through the wilds and chased after people kidnapping a daughter of a friend before.

Alertness, he has caught ambushers several times by surprise because he caught wind of them before they thought that it was possible.

Ambidextrous, he has wielded Snagga both left and right handed with no markedly difference in skill.

Cleave and Great Cleave, hacking his way through a swat of mooks is Druss' trademark.

Endurance, see all the posts from other people. He has on many occasions show an endurance that goes beyond the normal by far.

Improved Unarmed Strike, he has trained in boxing and wrestling.

Leadership, he has taken over command on many an occasion of a small strike force or an army and lead them through battle.

Improved Initiative, see above.

Iron Will, he is stronger willed them most but I would not put his will save as a strong save but an intermediate sort of save.

Great Fortitude, enough said, taking a pounding and keeping ticking is Druss' trademark.

Diehard, Druss will die when he is damn well ready for it and not anytime earlier. Druss killed a champion that had struck him down with a poisoned attack after he had been fighting for days resting only at night as an old man when he was on his knees and after he finally expired people still were not willing to get to close for fear that he might lash out and kill them still.

Skill wise I would say the following skills are appropriate.

Animal Empathy +5, Druss was good at dealing with any kind of animals since he knew no fear and was not inclined to be cruel with them.

Bluff +5, he did bluff some people but it was often as part of a misdirection in combat.

Climb +8, he climbed several times sheer cliffs (I am impressed with the number of sheer cliffs existing in his world, the author really loves his sheer cliffs :) )

Gather Information +2, mostly he intimidates the information out of people but he has asked questions before.

Handle Animal+5, Druss is a farmer in his spare time...

Heal+10, he was very good at dealing with injuries from battle due to his experiences.

Hide +2, he can do it but he is not very proficient at it, probably since his too likely to be direct about things.

Intimidate+20, he is epically in his capability to scare or intimidate people, joinings, even demons have balked at his words and promises.

Jump +5

Knowledge local +10
Knowledge Warfare +10
Knowledge Farming +5
Knowledge Nature +5

Listen +15, he has caught ambushers and determined where invisible creatures were by hearing before.

Move Silently +10, he is surprisingly quiet when he wants to be.

Perform Rousing Speeches +10, he has learned how to tell stories and how to maintain moral by speaking publicly to troops that he fights alongside with.

Profession Farmer +5

Ride +3, he is adequate on a horse but is not very found of riding.

Search+8, if he is looking for something he tends to find it.

Sense Motive+3, he can find out what the motives of others are but often does not care what peoples motives are.

Spot +10, he is attentive to details.

Swim +5

He also knows several languages but I am not sure how to handle this best since he picked up over half a dozen languages in his travels.

Wilderness Lore +10 / Survival +10 depending on how you want to name it.

Given his skills I would say he is a sort of Ranger / Fighter multiclass with a alternative version ranger which does not get magic, animal companions or favoured enemies but instead gets several special abilities such as crippling strike, uncanny dodge and defensive roll.
Perhaps you could add in Improved Critical with his axe but that might be just part of the stats of the axe itself.

I would put him at something like level 15 or level 17 even as a multi-class character.
Say 10 fighter and 5 or 7 levels of 'ranger'.
That should account for the large amount of feats he has and the special abilities.

Perhaps even a special ability to account for the fact that anyone trying to contact him mind to mind or trying to fight his mind directly runs into a almost impenetrable barrier which forcibly ejects them from Druss' mind.
Sort of Slippery Mind but stronger and against any sort of compulsions or mental like attacks.
I am not sure what to use since I have not seen anything similar to what Druss does there in D&D.

[hamishspence]

I haven even less respect for Drizzt. Spoilers. He gets killed by an ex girlfriend. Huh. I always thought he would die in battle.

The source it cites (The Last Threshold), when looked up on Amazon, doesn't seem to have any reviews mentioning anything about it. And there's already a Drizzt book after it, due to come out in August.

Suggesting that somebody may have gotten the wrong idea.

[Fan]

I am sure that Drizzt has not fought any battles which I am now going to have to quote you here since your claim of the amount of battles of Druss is obviously the one we have to assume is correct since you said so...

which lasted several DECADES...

A couple of dozen battles in 40+ years???

In an age where there was near constant warfare in the regions Druss travelled in?
And where he fought on pretty much ALL of the conflicts of any note in that time period?

The SKIRMISHES alone would number in over several DOZEN and this is the ones that are MENTIONED in the books, which incidently Kyberwolf has claimed are NOT a legit source of information on what Druss can or cannot do and if Kyberwolf wants me to go and get all of his quotes where he dismisses the facts given in the books, tells everyone that he did not read the books, does not care for the books and has no intention of reading the books while calling everyone fanboys when they try and mention any of the facts that happened in the books just because he does not like that it is in the books he never read and he did not accept as cannon since it is in his eyes too powerful without even looking at all the problems Druss has had.

He even had problems with his heart at one point and still fought in a battle until he collapsed making everyone wonder how he managed to kill anything in the state he was in.
Druss is that stubborn.

As for Drizzt...unless you are now going to dismiss the actual STATS he has because surprise, surprise he has been statted out, you cannot say that his stats are massively stronger or fast enough that he moves at MACH speeds.
Drizzt is incredibly fast...moving at MACH speeds is NOT something that Drizzt can do.
To be moving at MACH speeds we are talking over 6100 feet per round movement...given that the only place Drizzt has a move off over more then 40 is in the Candlekeep variant for his stats (and even there he has 'merely' 70 feet movement, times 4 for sprinting...) we can pretty much assume that he does NOT have mach speed or even anywhere near mach speed.
Stats for Drizzt...Str 13, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14. Height 5 ft. 4 in.

WHERE is that MASSIVELY stronger then strongmen?

I think I can get you over 200 NPC's for forgotten realms which are human and have higher strength then that.

That is as bad as the claims that people saying Druss might surprise Drizzt in a fight have said things like lifting up mountains, regenerates, or any of the half a dozen super powers he has been attributed by Druss defends according to Kyberwolf yet when you check EVERY SINGLE post the ONLY person to have made these claims is ...Kyberwolf.

Druss is far more likely to loose then to win BUT he might surprise Drizzt and there is some good odds that he might take Drizzt with him when he dies because it is the way he has fought before.
Against lesser champions he survived doing this but Drizzt would land a killing blow quite likely as Drizzt is far better then most of the people Druss has had to fight with (if not all of them).
Now keep in mind that most if not all of the proponents of Druss have mentioned that Drizzt is likely to win and that the only thing that could be likely to happen is that Druss might take Drizzt with him in the beyond.
Note the operative use of the word MIGHT.

As for Druss beating someone like Bruce Lee, canonically he faced another boxer in one of the books and he, Druss the Legend, had to admit that he was very, very unlikely to beat this boxer since he was simply better and faster and since Druss would never cheat in a fight like that there would be no chance almost for Druss to win.
Speed, skill and knowledge would be enough to overcome him if it is substantially ahead of him.

In this fight the stats run as follows:

Strength Druss, no contest
Dexterity Drizzt no contest whatsoever
Constitution Druss by a substantial amount
Intelligence Drizzt
Wisdom about even, perhaps a slight edge in some specific fields to either of them
Charisma Drizzt by a substantial amount.

If Drizzt plays it smart (and he should given the scenario) he will not try and play around with Druss as that would be a quick way to get yourself killed.
Drizzt should win, but he might get killed too if he is only a little unlucky or Druss is a little bit lucky.

Keep in mind that given all the descriptions of Druss that he does have Improved Initiative but of course his dexterity Is substantially lower then that of Drizzt.

If Drizzt plays around he will get outthought and will die fast, if not he should win.
He might still die while killing Druss.


Just saying this again.

None of the character sheets made for Drizzt have been official, there was a point where Salvatore acknowledged ONE sheet as official (back in ADnD), but he eventually rescinded this comment because he didn't want to be limited by the stats presented in his writing.

His strength and speed come from feats that have been repeated in the books, IE. Faster than eye movement against people with enhanced senses that can normally see it (IE. Drow.), and feats that have been repeated in the comic retellings of those events.

Faster than eye movement with the "blurry, out of focus" real life equivalent we see happen all the time at less than mach speeds with humming bird wings is achieved A: When he ambushes the Elven convoy where he saves Cattie Brie's life, this is repeated in the comic retelling of these events so we can be sure it was not "Artistic liberty" being taken with flowery words. Now while mach is a BIT of an exaggeration Drizzt still moves faster than most sports cars.

The stronger than traditional circus strongmen thing comes from him being able to keep up physically with Wulfgar when he trained him in the art of war. Wulfgar himself spent his latter days WRESTLING YETIS, the least of whom's feats include tossing man sized boulders at people casually. While I'm not assuming parity, he wasn't floored in their direct physical match ups when he was teaching him hand to hand combat. He's also cut through solid stone before, so there's that.


Also, even accounting for CONSTANT fighting old world battles were likely to go on for weeks. When I say a battle, I mean something major. If we're going to count every little skirmish then Drizzt spent the better part of his life trying to murder himself going through Orc Hordes and constantly fighting Dwemer in the Underdark after he left Menzoberranzan.

I've read both series, and Druss has performed a lot of amazing feats, but all of them were possible as examples of either Peak human ability, or a superhuman example of WILLPOWER.

The guy can't, and wont keep up with someone with superhuman abilities. It's not a matter of skill here, it's a matter of Druss fighting a mini demi god in comparison to his own abilities.

[Anteros]

You know...Druss actually fought something very similar to Drizzt in one of the books. I think it was the Swords of Night and Day. Creatures with short bursts of speed so quick that the eye couldn't follow them. Druss had no real difficulty against them, so I don't think Drizzt's bracers are really the auto win people are making them out to be.

[dehro]

Handle Animal+5, Druss is a farmer in his spare time...
Knowledge Farming +5
Profession Farmer +5


very in depth analysis. these made me lol.. Druss did always claim that he was a crap farmer, however much he tried. I've always pictured him (exagerating of course) trying to attack a corn field with Snaga and making an almightty mess of it...or trying to punch seeds into the ground and daring them not to grow by shouting at them.

[Anteros]

very in depth analysis. these made me lol.. Druss did always claim that he was a crap farmer, however much he tried. I've always pictured him (exagerating of course) trying to attack a corn field with Snaga and making an almightty mess of it...or trying to punch seeds into the ground and daring them not to grow by shouting at them.

Haha. I don't think he was really bad at the actual act of farming...just at being able to make himself settle down on a farm.

[hamishspence]

You know...Druss actually fought something very similar to Drizzt in one of the books. I think it was the Swords of Night and Day. Creatures with short bursts of speed so quick that the eye couldn't follow them. Druss had no real difficulty against them, so I don't think Drizzt's bracers are really the auto win people are making them out to be.

The vampire-type creatures? Those would fit.

[dehro]

Haha. I don't think he was really bad at the actual act of farming...just at being able to make himself settle down on a farm.

"Shape up, you bastard sprouts! get growing!
Get a move on, you lazy taters. If I had been waiting on your pleasure to get fed at Skeln Pass, the Immortals would have found me mightlily underfed! thank the Source for beans. they may make you fart but they'll keep a soldier going, unlike you, bunch of pansy wastrels!
Attack All the Corn, my loyal Snaga.. let's send it to the shed!"

"Druss, my love, would you please stop with the shouting? the neighbours are staring and Bessie's milk has curdled, again"

[Fallbot]

The source it cites (The Last Threshold), when looked up on Amazon, doesn't seem to have any reviews mentioning anything about it. And there's already a Drizzt book after it, due to come out in August.

Suggesting that somebody may have gotten the wrong idea.

He is indeed murdered by an ex-girlfriend. Or has every appearance of having been so, but considering how cheap death is in the series, it's hardly surprising that there's a new book coming out.

It's a terrible mess of a book, and I don't recommend anyone reading it to check.

[Traab]

"Shape up, you bastard sprouts! get growing!
Get a move on, you lazy taters. If I had been waiting on your pleasure to get fed at Skeln Pass, the Immortals would have found me mightlily underfed! thank the Source for beans. they may make you fart but they'll keep a soldier going, unlike you, bunch of pansy wastrels!
Attack All the Corn, my loyal Snaga.. let's send it to the shed!"

"Druss, my love, would you please stop with the shouting? the neighbours are staring and Bessie's milk has curdled, again"

"You filthy stinking weeds! Ive been yanking your weak asses out of the ground since before your mother germinated next to your father! You think your roots will save you from me? Dammit tomatoes! You are making me look bad! We both know the only reason farmer jensons are growing so large is from the sheer level of fertilizer he has been spewing from his cavernous word hole all over the crops!"

*EDIT* Amusement aside, I think Anteros nailed it on the head. He wasnt unskilled at farming as much as he hated not being in battle.