D&D 3.5 Dwarf Rogue... can it work?

[DreamQuestin]

Greetings folks!

I have spent a couple hours googling dwarf rogue and in most cases the O.P. is talked out of using a dwarf or to switch class. I have been challenged to make a Gold Dwarf Rogue in a Forgotten Realms campaign. We are starting at level four.

I know that rogues are kind of feat starved, so could see a fighter/rogue mix for that purpose, but I would still like to keep her quintessentially rogue. I confess, I keep thinking of Varik in Dragon Age II though a female version. But as a rogue I generally try to go dual weapon.

I have -=never=- played a dwarf before but since I am breaking stereotype here being a rogue, but I have not seen much written about the female dwarves. I am thinking they can't be so dour as their male counterparts, perhaps a bit domineering (to get through to said males) but just as nurturing, kind and patient as females of other races, right?

At any rate, advice on a good dwarf ROGUE build (dips in other classes are fine, maybe even bard, but basicly keeping rogue as the primary) and tips on playing a female rogue would be deeply appreciated. Heck - even pointers to good sources for me would be appreciated. I was a bit disappointed in google today. That rarely happens.

Thank you kindly for your time :)!

[Drelua]

Isn't Gold Dwarf the one that gets a DEX penalty? If it is, I'd recommend switching to a different subrace, but other than that I can't think of a reason a Dwarf Rogue wouldn't work. I mean, Stonecunning would probably be more useful on a Rogue and the CON bonus would help make up for your low HD. Really the only reason I can see for Dwarf Rogues to be rare is the stereotypes about them, not anything in the racial abilities.

Two levels in Fighter might help for feats, probably with the Thug variant found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) would help your skills not take as much of a hit. The extra HP would help for a melee Rogue and it would help you get TWF and Weapon Finesse sooner. If you wanna be more dwarf-like, just use a pair of handaxes or something.

[DreamQuestin]

Isn't Gold Dwarf the one that gets a DEX penalty? If it is, I'd recommend switching to a different subrace, but other than that I can't think of a reason a Dwarf Rogue wouldn't work. I mean, Stonecunning would probably be more useful on a Rogue and the CON bonus would help make up for your low HD. Really the only reason I can see for Dwarf Rogues to be rare is the stereotypes about them, not anything in the racial abilities.

Gold dwarfs take a -1 to Dex, but I don't see that as a big deal, and the +2 to con is the same. I wondered if it was just the stereotype stopping the class for a dwarf. Probably not as favoured in Dwarf society either.



Two levels in Fighter might help for feats, probably with the Thug variant found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) would help your skills not take as much of a hit. The extra HP would help for a melee Rogue and it would help you get TWF and Weapon Finesse sooner. If you wanna be more dwarf-like, just use a pair of handaxes or something.
That is an interesting variant and I will tinker with that some. Don't want the character to end up being one of the 'broken nose' crew though :)

Thank you for your quick reply!

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's no reason why dwarfs can't be rogues. The dex penalty may hurt a bit but it's hardly a dealbreaker.

It looks like you want to do a martial rogue so i'll ignore spellcasting for now and just throw out some suggestions for dips.

Fighter and it's variants was already mentioned.
Swordsage makes for a good dip of 1 or 2 levels. Wisdom to AC if you haven't dumped it, 6 maneuvers, 2 stances. Try to take it at levels 8 & 9 to get Assassins Stance, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt and and some other utility stuff.
Warblade: 1 level dip at level 9 or after gets you access to both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven tactics. A real bargain.
Swashbuckler: d10 HD, Weapon Finesse and Int to damage. Take a look at the Daring Outlaw feat to combine your levels for some aspects of both classes.
Marshal: If you have high charisma you can pick up some boni to dex skills and initiative for a 1 level dip.

[Alefiend]

There's no reason for a character built on the rogue chassis to wear a glowing sign that says "I am a thieving scoundrel." Rogue is your go-to class for anything that requires a lot of skills.

For me, a dwarven rogue is likely to be an engineer and/or inventor—somebody who is more adept at delicate work than hammering stuff out in the forge. Locksmith, engraver, architect, all these and more fit very handily within the rogue portfolio. If nothing else, somebody has to build those ingenious dwarven traps, right?

If you're looking for something a little more combat focused, then you can built a scout. Sure, the stereotypical dwarf is a bearded tank with a huge axe, but you can't operate an entire army with those. Somebody has to keep an eye on enemy troop movements, identify good locations for ambushes and straight-up fights alike, and quietly kill the occasional sentry so a larger and louder group can get into position unobserved.

Roleplay is entirely up to you. I tend to think of dwarven women as the type to not take any crap from anybody, and have a dry and sly sense of humor. They're coming from a place of extreme gender inequality, as dwarves have far fewer female children than male, and those females are expected to stay closer to home (even if they join the military) so there can be a next generation. An adventuring dwarf woman has had to justify her career to a lot of people, and is probably a bit tired of it. Again, this is just where I put my brain when I try to play a female dwarf; YMMV.

[Drelua]

Well, the DEX penalty probably isn't that big of a deal, but a CHA penalty would be better. TWF could be hard to qualify for though, but I guess you could use a two-handed weapon and focus more on STR, although I think you lose some Rogue class features in armor heavier than light so your AC would suffer, but then you'd also free up a lot of your feats. I'd probably recommend Shield Dwarf for TWF, and a two hander if you stick with Gold Dwarf.

[ArcturusV]

Course, there's also the rogue variants. I seem to recall one which gave up Sneak Attack for extra feats. So you might want to look into that. But really I don't see the malus to Dex being all that crippling to it. It's just that people tend to think Optimal rather than Acceptable. I mean I could easily make Half-Orc Wizards and Sorcerers. They'd still be good. Probably not AS good as a Human Wizard or Sorcerer, but hardly unacceptable levels of bad.

[Namfuak]

Assuming Gold Dwarves have the same stats as they do in NWN2, why did you choose that particular dwarf subtype? -2 Cha hurts a rogue much less than -2 dex. That said, search and disable device are based on int, so you could not invest in dex and be a more sturdy, hardy rogue than most of your roguish compatriots, while still being perfectly good at finding and disabling traps. Honestly, I'm surprised to hear that other forums get people away from dwarf rogues, con is always a great stat and cha is usually a dump stat unless the rogue plans on being the party face. Granted, 10 less feet per round hurts, especially since you won't take advantage of the lack of a penalty for heavy armor, but it's hardly the end of the world.

Anyway, to your specific character, dual wielding is somewhat lacking, especially on rogues, because you are effectively burning tons of feats for a subpar combat style. That said, it wouldn't be unheard of to take a level of fighter or two interspersed in the build to make up for the feats.

[Waker]

I have only played the first Dragon Age, so my knowledge of Varric is limited to what I read on the wiki. I'll suggest things as best I can, but outlining precisely what you want the character to do will help.
The Golden Hands of Vergadain acf might be of interest to you, giving you some Ranger abilities. The Quick Fingers acf from Dungeonscape is handy should you expect running into traps. Spell Sense fits the natural resistance of Dwarves quite nicely.
The Nightsong Infiltrator and Enforcer may interest you, as they are rather competent roguish PrCs.

[Sparkzlight]

-1 DEX isn't that big of a deal. You could probably manage to find some sort of Cloak of Dexterity on your adventures or something. :P

I'd go with a regular dwarf, to tell you the truth. Probably something like Rogue 3/Fighter 1, as you mentioned rogues being feat starved, or possibly Rogue 2/Fighter 2.

[DreamQuestin]

Fighter and it's variants was already mentioned.
Swordsage makes for a good dip of 1 or 2 levels. Wisdom to AC if you haven't dumped it, 6 maneuvers, 2 stances. Try to take it at levels 8 & 9 to get Assassins Stance, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt and and some other utility stuff.
Warblade: 1 level dip at level 9 or after gets you access to both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven tactics. A real bargain.
Swashbuckler: d10 HD, Weapon Finesse and Int to damage. Take a look at the Daring Outlaw feat to combine your levels for some aspects of both classes.
Marshal: If you have high charisma you can pick up some boni to dex skills and initiative for a 1 level dip.

Some great direction! Thank you for the tips ;). Mental image of a dwarf swashbuckler is a bit hard to keep... but theoretically possible lol

Thank you sleepy

[DreamQuestin]

For me, a dwarven rogue is likely to be an engineer and/or inventor—somebody who is more adept at delicate work than hammering stuff out in the forge. Locksmith, engraver, architect, all these and more fit very handily within the rogue portfolio. If nothing else, somebody has to build those ingenious dwarven traps, right?

Some fantastic RP ideas from that set of thoughts :). I really like that direction and think I may just have to run with that :)



If you're looking for something a little more combat focused, then you can built a scout. Sure, the stereotypical dwarf is a bearded tank with a huge axe, but you can't operate an entire army with those. Somebody has to keep an eye on enemy troop movements, identify good locations for ambushes and straight-up fights alike, and quietly kill the occasional sentry so a larger and louder group can get into position unobserved.

Deleted some stuff there just for brevity :). I like the 'librarian' idea much better than scout, but those are all valid options which I will keep to hand in case the DM doesn't like my first choice ideas ;).

Thank you Alefiend

[DreamQuestin]

Well, the DEX penalty probably isn't that big of a deal, but a CHA penalty would be better. TWF could be hard to qualify for though, but I guess you could use a two-handed weapon and focus more on STR, although I think you lose some Rogue class features in armor heavier than light so your AC would suffer, but then you'd also free up a lot of your feats. I'd probably recommend Shield Dwarf for TWF, and a two hander if you stick with Gold Dwarf.
I chose it (Gold Dwarf) for flavour, not favour. I am very keen on the ROLEplay aspects and while I really don't want to suck at whatever task the character is supposed to be the group expert of, I wont milk every advantage there is out of characters. Nothing wrong with doing that, just isn't my preference ;)

I do thank you very kindly Drelua ;) your thoughts have sent me hunting different sources and learning more possibilities.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Yes, but CAN IT BLEND????


Classes are just names for a smattering of abilities. Refluff it as whatever you want. Dwarves can be skillful and good at precision damage and finding traps without being a 'sneaky steal-y rogue'. Or even with being that, if you like the idea.

[Zweisteine]

Gold dwarves have -2 dex, not -1... As far as I know, no race has a ability score bonus or penalty of one...

A dwarf rogue actually doesn't seem half bad...

The Dark and Gully Dwarves from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting actually has Rogue as its favored class.

And why'd you capitalize "role" in "roleplay?" Roleplaying inherently implies the part involving playing roles...

[Cavir]

Maybe do a 2 level dip of Ranger to get your TWF. The included tracking would do well for a dwarf doing the scouting mentioned above. You get Tracking, Wild Empathy, TWF, and Favored Enemy. That'll help make up for being feat starved. Could also do the ACF of favored terrain instead of enemy. Dwarven rogue with trapfinding, stonecunning, and favored terrain(underground) makes a nice combo.

[Cerlis]

Greetings folks!

I have spent a couple hours googling dwarf rogue and in most cases the O.P. is talked out of using a dwarf or to switch class. I have been challenged to make a Gold Dwarf Rogue in a Forgotten Realms campaign. We are starting at level four.

I know that rogues are kind of feat starved, so could see a fighter/rogue mix for that purpose, but I would still like to keep her quintessentially rogue. I confess, I keep thinking of Varik in Dragon Age II though a female version. But as a rogue I generally try to go dual weapon.

I have -=never=- played a dwarf before but since I am breaking stereotype here being a rogue, but I have not seen much written about the female dwarves. I am thinking they can't be so dour as their male counterparts, perhaps a bit domineering (to get through to said males) but just as nurturing, kind and patient as females of other races, right?

At any rate, advice on a good dwarf ROGUE build (dips in other classes are fine, maybe even bard, but basicly keeping rogue as the primary) and tips on playing a female rogue would be deeply appreciated. Heck - even pointers to good sources for me would be appreciated. I was a bit disappointed in google today. That rarely happens.

Thank you kindly for your time :)!

Honestly i see alot of dwarf roguish characters in fantasy. If they are not fighty, they are usually roguey.

P.S. The Dwarven rogue on Dark Alliance is an inventor( i think) uses technology and uses a crossbow.



Classes are just names for a smattering of abilities. Refluff it as whatever you want. Dwarves can be skillful and good at precision damage and finding traps without being a 'sneaky steal-y rogue'. Or even with being that, if you like the idea.
__________________
well the thing is that a rogue isnt a thief or assassin. They fall under the archtype or rogue.

Still when others ask what you are i'd start with your characters profession and a description. If you just say "im a dwarf rogue" you will never get that mental image oout of their head


-------------------------


And why'd you capitalize "role" in "roleplay?" Roleplaying inherently implies the part involving playing roles...
as opposed to ROLLplay

[avr]

At low levels, darkvision is a great boon to those who would sneak around in the dark. At mid-high levels not dumping Charisma helps you with the Use Magic Device skill which is nice. Similarly for social skills at any level.

The problem is defence. You have light armour - even if you get proficiency in heavier you can't use it or you lose class features. You won't have a great Dexterity. You have a d6 HD and probably a CON of ~16 which is good but not amazing. A reach weapon (if you're dipping some fighter-type) rather than TWF might help you not be squashed in melee, but you're going to need to invest a fair bit of money into magic items to stay alive.

[Renegade Paladin]

Dwarf rogues are great and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what he's on about. Stonecunning and darkvision are huge boosts to the rogue's skill set, since the first lets him automatically detect secret doors and traps, and the second lets him sneak attack in the dark. Seriously, without darkvision the second one just doesn't happen, since you can't sneak attack targets with concealment.

I would definitely go with a shield/standard dwarf, though, since rogues typically need Dexterity more than Charisma.

[Alefiend]

The Dark and Gully Dwarves from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting actually has Rogue as its favored class.

Has anybody in the history of Dragonlance played a Gully Dwarf as anything other than comic relief and/or racial slapstick?

[Seharvepernfan]

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=555110) my dwarf rogue (currently under some spell effects and rage, so he's gonna look a little buffed at the moment). He's not sneaky, but he is pretty capable in melee.

[Keld Denar]

If you take the Fighter dip for the proficiencies, you can TWF with the Urgrosh for free (since it's martial for a dwarf, and Fighter gives all martial weapons). That gives you the option of switching back and forth between TWFing and THF when the need suits you (such as after a move when you only have a standard action left). I'd suggest blur in some Swordsage to your build at some point, though, since SS gives you some nice Tiger Claw maneuvers that synergize with TWFing, along with some free movement and possibly some extra SA damage from Assassin's Stance.

EDIT: PS DreamQuestin, your ROLEplaying comment stinks of Stormwind Fallacy. Generally not an attitude that will garner you a lot of help around here.

[Karnith]

Has anybody in the history of Dragonlance played a Gully Dwarf as anything other than comic relief and/or racial slapstick?
I once played a Gully Dwarf druid in as serious a manner as I could. And Highbulp Phudge, who ruled over the Bulp clan in Xak Tsaroth, was smart enough that Tanis took him seriously when the two met.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dwarf Paragon is one of the better paragon classes. +2 con, +1 to saves VS magic, +30ft darkvision, +3 to all craft with metal or stone, and 40ft stonecunning.

I would consider a build of

Rogue 2 / Dwarf Paragon 3 / Spellthief 1 / Trapsmith 5 / Spellthief, rogue, or assassin 9

Con > Str > Int > Dex > Cha > Wis before racials.

You con focus grants tons of HP to allow for the low HD you suffer through most of your HD. You can handle the front line better than almost all rogues. Grab a greatsword (dwarf paragon grants proficiency) and power attack your problems away. Flanking is your friend.

At 6th level you dip spellthief. This allows you to take masterspellthief as a feat and get spellcasting in light armor for trapsmith. A mitheral Brestplate (of your own making for 1/3rd price) is the go to armor. Now you start to get some really cool spellcasting to go with your skills and melee.

At 11th level you hit the end of trapsmith, and from level 12 onward you have a choice. You can go spellthief for more ability to steal spells and abilities, OR you can go rogue for more sneak attack and skills, OR you can go into assassin and pick up another spell pool to cast from with some more cool spells.

And that is my dwarven rogue.

[Autolykos]

I'd go the engineer route, as that's the "dwarfiest" type of rogue, and generally the most useful to a party (if you do old-school dungeon crawls). You'd focus INT-based skills that way (finding, setting and defusing traps), so your dwarven attribute penalties won't hurt as much.
A 1-level dip into barbarian would also be cool (mechanically better than fighter, but would need massive refluffing to fit with the concept), to offset your speed penalty and get a few hit points and martial proficiency for the Urgrosh (that's a great melee weapon for what you need, and can double as a Halligan Tool aka "the Dwarven universal lockpick"). If you could get sneak to attack apply when sniping (there are feats for this, IIRC), crossbow would be a natural choice for ranged. Otherwise, go for thrown weapons.
The other option (or perhaps you could do both at the same time) would be a sniper rogue. That would fit better with the barbarian-dip and could be complemented with scout. Dex penalty would hurt, though.

[Diovid]

For a dwarf rogue based on traps and engineering and stuff you could look at the rogue quick fingers acf (Dungeonscape), the dwarf rogue substitution levels (Dragon Magazine #338), the saboteur rogue special ability (Dragon Magazine #326), the swift kick rogue special ability (Dragon Magazine #326), the silverkey prestige class (Dragonmarked), the trapsmith prestige class (Dungeonscape) and the combat trapsmith prestige class (Complete Scoundrel).